The meaning of "canon," multiple endings, and Noctis' fate in FFXV. (Spoilers regarding the ending of FFXV)

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
So one thing that's always bugged me is the loose and often times misunderstood meaning of 'canon' in regards to multiple media works. This is more a discussion on "canon" and what it means and doesn't mean. First off, let's talk about the term. Canon means:

...The material accepted as officially part of the story in the fictional universe of that story. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction. The alternative terms mythology, timeline, universe and continuity are often used, with the former being especially used to refer to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), while the latter two typically refer to a single arc where all events are directly connected chronologically. Other times, the word can mean "to be acknowledged by the creator(s)".

This is important in regards to stories that span multiple years across multiple platforms. An example would be the obvious series of Final Fantasy VII. A compilation that spans the original 1997 game all the way to the PSP game Crisis Core which came out in 2007. Let's look at the Nibelheim Incident portrayal.

Since the game's release in 1997, the only canon portrayal of how the Nibelheim Incident went down was the portryal shown in the PSone game, with Sephiroth burning down the town, instantly dispatching Zack, and Cloud being impaled through the chest before suddenly tapping into unknown reserves of strength to toss Sephiroth into the mako pit below him, serving Sephiroth his first, humiliating defeat. However, this portryal changed with the release of Before Crisis and Last Order, which showed Sephiroth willingly leaping into the Mako pit, after Cloud summons his strengh and merely tossed Sephiroth to the side. This kind of change is known as a "retcon." Meaning, a retroactive continuity change to an already written/crafted body of narrative.

This was seen by a lot of fans as a "Han shot first" moment in the fandom, which eventually was retconned again. This time to match the original portrayal of FFVII's depiction in Crisis Core. Until this retcon was performed, the actual canon portryal of what happened between Cloud and Sephiroth was the LO/BC depiction which was referred to several times by the writers in various guidebooks and references to the chronology of FFVII. However, once Crisis Core came to be, the scene shown in that game, was referenced as the depiction of what happened in the story.

Suffice to say, canon is a means of neatly outlining and establishing which events and entries in a series line up and connect with one another, to create a coherent chain of entries in a story.

Not every series/story/game/etc has a specified "canon" to certain events. Either because writers choose to leave that to player interpretation, or because it fundamentally doesn't change anything in terms of the completed story since... No other follow up will be written. A perfect example of this is Silent Hill 2. Silent Hill 2 contains multiple endings that are all equally valid and equally ambiguous, in terms of which ending "happened." This is intentional. The original writers of Team Silent expressed their intent at leaving the conclusion up to the players because to them, James Sunderland's story is over and will never be revisited. Which leaves his ultimate fate in the hand of the players.

Contrast that conclusion with what's stated regarding Silent Hill 1 in terms of Silent Hill 3. As explained by the creators and subsequently shown in Silent Hill 3, the canon ending for SH1 is the Good Ending. Not the Good+ or the Bad or Bad+ Endings. As depicted in the following entries of the SH story, SH1's established canon ending is the Good Ending.

A story with multiple endings doesn't necessarily have a "canon" ending, nor does every entry in a series necessarily have to be canon.

You may be asking what my point is, so I'll explain.

Final Fantasy XV is one of a handful of Final Fantasy titles that has multiple endings. Other Final Fantasy titles to depict multiple endings are Final Fantasy XIII-2 and Final Fantasy Type-0. And this is important in regards to discussing which endings are "canon." In terms of Final Fantasy XV, both of the endings shown in the original game and Episode Ignis, are "canon," meaning...They are equally valid, official and acknowledged by the creators.

"But how can that be?" You may ask.

Yes, I understand that they show two widely different progression of events that yield vastly different outcomes. However they're both valid conclusions to the story. Why? Because they're both acknowledged officially, and they conclude the story of FFXV. Meaning, until another entry, event, story, or "Word of God" explanation expounds on what happens post FFXV and on who rules Lucius and the fate Eos... Neither ending stands above the other. Given the fact FFXV has been essentially buried with the axeing of all additional DLC, for the time being, the state of "canon" in terms of FFXV post story is ambiguous at best.

Contrast that to the multiple endings of FFXIII-2. While FFXIII-2 has multiple Paradox Endings, there is a true ending and conclusion that leads directly into the final entry of the FFXIII Lightning Saga, "Lightning Returns." This ending, "The Goddess is Dead" and "Requiem of the Goddess" are considered the true, canon endings of FFXIII-2.

Final Fantasy Type-0 is another entry with no real "canon" ending. Only multiple endings, which signify the multiple possibilities that Orience's spiral may conclude. One such conclusion is the Game Over Ending that depicts the Class Zero doing the same conclusion that results in the Spiral restarting as it did millions of times before, while another ending has them ending the spiral by making the right choice and saving the world, while ANOTHER ending shows them living a life where the Crystals themselves have been removed entirely from their timeline. Which ending is canon? Well, originally there was a proposed Final Fantasy Type-NEXT that was to show Ace and others from Class Zero in a new setting but given Tabata's departure, we may never know now. But each ending is "canon" as it's an official, accepted and acknowledged entry in the story. And no follow up story exists that requires a specific acknowledgment for which "version" is the one that "happened" in the narrative.

Now, in regards to FFXV, one may say, "Well, the creators have said that Episode Ignis is just a 'what-if' scenario!" To which I would say, that's not true. At least, not true in the dismissive sense. I would then refer you to this translation of the Final Fantasy XV Official Works book that discusses "Episode Ignis."

The Extra Chapter shown in Episode Ignis. With but one decision, Ignis’s powerful desire to save Noctis finds another possibility.

There is no meaning in a peace obtained by sacrificing Noctis. His emotion surpasses even the intent of the gods and brings forth another future.

These words show that this episode, is another whole ending, in terms of scope and narrative weight. An alternate outcome where the player, as Ignis, is able to create another possibility, in terms of the outcome of FFXV. It's not a joke ending or a "What if" scenario. It's an ending that posits and reveals an alternative option within the story exists/existed to bring an end to Ardyn and free Eos from the grip of the Starscourge. And it shows clear authorial intent to depict another possibility within the narrative. Whether it was to ameliorate the much criticized latter half of FFXV, or implement a multiple ending story that they were unable to feature in the main game itself, it is clearly intentional. And if one looks at the themes of the story and Final Fantasy as a whole, it fits far more elegantly than the original first ending of the game.

For one, FFXV started off as Final Fantasy Versus XIII. An entry within the Fabula Nova Crystallis series of FFXIII. Which was a series of entries that subverted the usual classic tropes of the crystals of Final Fantasy, and examined the nature of destiny, free will, and fate within its protagonists. Despite being later rebranded as its own main series entry FFXV, much of the themes of the Fabula Nova Crystallis series remain.

One big theme, is fate and destiny. Each of the protagonists of the Fabula Nova Crystallis stories is thrust into this thematic struggle.

Lightning and her comrades of XIII, Class Zero of Type-0, and Noctis and his friends of XV, are all confronted with a task. A focus, in a sense. Which culminates in all of them having to make a choice. Sacrifice yourself in accordance to your fate and find possible salvation, or fight your fate and risk a fate worst than death and failure. For Lightning, it was accept her Focus and become Ragnarok or face becoming a Cie'th and changing nothing. For Class Zero it was to make the decision of becoming Agito by becoming L'cie or fighting fate and taking on the judgment from the Rurusian Arbiter head on even if it meant risking their lives.

However, FFXV is the only title that is out of place here. Noctis is thrust into the fate of the "True King." He is destined to sacrifice his life to bring light back to Eos and vanquish Ardyn in the afterlife. This is because it is foretold that he would do so by the gods. He is given his task. His "Focus" if you will. And in the end, he fulfills it to the letter and martyrs himself in accordance to the will of the gods. On a macro-scale, this is a positive outcome. The planet is saved, the Starscourge is purged from the world, and everyone can live happily ever after. However, thematically and on a micro-scale, namely, in reference to Noctis's friends and family, is this really a fair and noble outcome?

No, not at all. It's ridiculous and terrible.

For one, thematically, it makes no sense. The game juxtaposes the themes and importance of brotherhood and camaraderie against the real solitude and burden of destiny foisted upon Noctis. On one hand, Noctis is told by everyone to not just shoulder the burden of his hardships by himself and open up so that others may help him in the struggles he faces. But near the end Noctis is told explicitly that the path that awaits him is one he can only tread by himself.

So much for opening up, and relying on others, huh?

Noctis is the One True King. He has to march forth alone and die alone (well not completely alone, at least the spirits of his ancestors are there to help kill him and fight with him :desu: ) to save the world. In the end, it's a burden only he can bear and he must bear it, otherwise everyone he knows and loves will die. All their sacrifices will be for naught. This is, thematically, no different than the choice the Fal'cie gave Lightning and her friends in regards to either accepting their fate and becoming Ragnarok, or else letting everyone else die and suffer, while potentially damning another innocent group with their focus. Either sacrifice yourself now for the greater good or risk failure and the harm of others. What makes this ending so bizarre and unsatisfying is again, the juxtaposition of the previous themes the game plays up all throughout the story. Noctis is told to open up, team up, and realize he's not alone. But in the end, he is alone. Because.. That's his foretold fate. He even fights the final boss alone. Why? Because fate. Don't question it.

It's only through Episode Ignis that the actual themes of brotherhood and camaraderie continue to their inevitable and consistent conclusion. Noctis, who is too noble and goodhearted to realize the unfair choice he is burdened with, is unable to advocate for himself and see a future for himself other than death. Because of this, Ignis, his close friend, fights for him and puts his life on the line to find a different path for him. A path that allows him to fulfill his goal without becoming a sacrifice.

One may rightly ask, "if such a possibility existed, why wouldn't the gods/astrals reveal it? Such a possibility seems contrived."

But the answer is, "The gods do not care."

One thing that is consistently shown in the Fabulla Nova Crystallis series is that the gods/Fal'Cie/etc are indifferent and incapable of seeing or feeling the impact their choices make on the humans they use. They cannot see into the hearts of humans. As far as the gods are concerned, the sacrifice of one human to protect the planet, is a fair trade, regardless of the pain that it may cause. It's up to humans to fight for themselves and carve their own destinies, lest they be cast aside as tools for the gods to use. While the situation on Eos is different than say, Pulse or Orience, thematically speaking, Noctis and the Lucian bloodline are tools; keepers of the crystal and protectors of the planet. Their well-being and destiny only goes as far as that. This is shown clearly when Ardyn, who tried (albeit incorrectly) to save the world from the Starscourge, is spurned and repudiated by the Astrals and the Crystal for having sullied himself with the darkness. The gods' cold, and unforgiving assessment of him when in actuality, he merely tried to heal and save people the best way he could, clearly shows that the gods have a very limited scope in valuing humans in their charge. While this doesn't absolve Ardyn of any responsibility for the evil he did, it's not a stretch to say that the Astrals played a very real role in Ardyn's descent into evil and revenge given how they treated his human attempt to save humanity. And they don't care nor see a problem with it. Humans are tools to carry out the will of the gods for the greater good, and if they fail, they are failures.

This same cold indifference can be seen in how the gods willingly usher Noctis to give his life in accordance to what they see as the best way possible to eliminate the Starscourge. Noctis having to give his life to fulfill a prophecy is the easy, surest way to end the calamity. Why look at any other possibility? He's only one person, and a tool of fate that's meant to sacrifice himself. Only Ignis, Noctis' friend, sees him as more than just a savior. He's a friend, a brother. And only he is in a position to advocate for another possibility to save Noctis and the world. And thankfully, as shown in Episode Ignis, he succeeds.

Another question that might be asked is, "Did Noctis really succeed in saving the world? The prophecy specifically states that the One True King must die in order to bring light back..."

Well my answer is, who cares about the prophecy? For one, there's no evidence whatsoever that the prophecy is the only tried and true means of ending the Starscourge. For one, the Starscourge is an otherworldly malady that the gods did not know of or account for. For all intents and purposes, the gods are ignorant of it as are mortals. The "prophecy" is merely the means to an end, the Astrals devised as a way to purge it. That doesn't make it the only tried and true way it is possible. Second, the prophecy was for all intents and purposes, a tool to lead Noctis to his "fate" as the One True King. It said what it said only because it was devised that way. And finally, as shown in the ending and stated in the guidebooks, yes... Noctis and his friends did succeed. Why else would they show them succeeding? If there was a twist, it'd be depicted. There's no need to leave such a point ambiguous.

Anyways, what are your thoughts in regards to these endings? I really felt like discussing this point, and kinda getting that annoyance regarding "canon" off my chest. If you managed to read through this entire tl;dr post, then congratulations. You're as big of a nerd as I am :mon:
 

Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
Re: XV's ending vs Ignis Extra Verse ending canocity

There're two key differences between the two endings, the player only gets to see one ending during the game's critical path* & players need to" go outside of the game" to unlock one of the two**.

*Playing from chapter 1 all the way to chapter 14 gives you Noctis' sacrifice ending. You don't even get the Extra Verse ending by doing a replay or New Game+ playthrought (like how FFType-0 handles its what if ending), nor by making alternative choices during the main game (like in X-2 & XIII-2). The main game will always build up to ending where Noctis makes the sacrifice, no matter what you do (even during Chapter 15).

**You have to go to the either Xbox or PS' digital store and purchase Episode Ignis, having the Season Pass still requieres you to go there to download it. Once you download it, in order to get the Extra Verse ending you have to:
  1. Go to the special option in the main menu of the game.
  2. Select Episode Ignis
But this comes with another caveat, the extra verse ending is not accesible during your first playthrought of the DLC, meaning during the DLC's critical path you still get Noctis' sacrifice as the main ending of the story. Extra Verse only becomes available after finishing the DLC.

Also even with Episode Ignis being bundled in the Royal/Windows Edition of the game, the Extra Verse ending still remain locked behind finishing the Episode with Noctis' sacrifice ending coming first, as well as not being integrated within XV's critical path.

-------------------------------------------------

Even if the developers don't outright dismiss Extra Verse as non-canon, the final product talks for itself and clearly has a preference and considers critical one of the two for the players to see, and therefore says it is canon.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
...That's not canon though. That's not what that word means. As stated, there's no continuity or official statement of where the plot jumps post FFXV.

What you're referring to is the original ending. The ending that the creators first want you to obtain and see from experiencing the story. That in no way discredits the other endings the creators have placed or written along side the original. They're not trying to erase The original ending either. The original ending serves as the starting point and context to how the other endings are interpreted and achieved. They branch off from it. They exist together. "Canon" is not applicable here cause they all are. Narratively speaking, the creators wanted to give other possibilities for the reason to show the player's a choice to change Noctis's sad fate. So yes, the "preference" is the original because it came first and they wanted to show there was another option for Noctis to fulfill his destiny. That's the context.

That's an entirely different subject aside from "canon." That doesn't exist here. They're all "canon" cause they're all official and referred to as part of the story. And no continuity exists post FFXV. If a sequel were to be made that carries on from FFXV's original ending, then the original ending is "canon." That's what canon means.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

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AKA
TresDias
The FFXV Universe franchise has officially recognized the concept of alternate timelines since at least early 2017 when this graphic was shown at that year's Game Developers Conference:

FFXVUniversetimeline.jpg


Events from "Omen" specifically were highlighted in this regard.
----

The alternate ending from "Episode Ignis" gets significant attention in the timeline section of FFXV's "Official Works" book.
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Before the majority of the season 2 DLC was canceled, they were going to depict what was described as an "Alternate Grand Finale," and it's been said that alternate course of events may still yet be depicted through another medium.
----

All of these are canon for the timelines they depict, just as the original ending is canon for that timeline in precisely the same fashion as it is canon that FFXI's Vana'diel became the desolate world of Abyssea in at least one particular timeline.

tl;dr: Silly disagreement is silly.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
So that means somewhere in some dimension or timeline, Stella Nox Fleuret is still alive!?!?!?

Or that Lightning will one day cross blades with Noctis!?!?

Or that Agito (FF Type Zero) is still part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis timeline alongside Versus and XIII?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
... Type-0 never stopped being part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis series. It's the only other member outside of the Lightning Saga.

Didn't know that about the whole alternate timeline thing, Twilight Mexican. Thats amazing, thank you. That about sums it up. :mon:
 

The Twilight Mexican

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AKA
TresDias
So that means somewhere in some dimension or timeline, Stella Nox Fleuret is still alive!?!?!?

Maybe? We don't know what her fate was to have been in her own story.

Blade said:
Or that Lightning will one day cross blades with Noctis!?!?
They (or some universes' versions of them anyway) have already met in "Dissidia NT."

Blade said:
Or that Agito (FF Type Zero) is still part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis timeline alongside Versus and XIII?
"Fabula Nova Crystallis" is product terminology only relevant to us in the real world, much the same way "Final Fantasy" itself is. Beyond identifying works of fiction that exist as neighbors within a shared multiversal structure, they really don't have any relevant bearing.

The Agito universe, the Cocoon universe, and the Versus universe exist within a shared multiverse, certainly, but all the FF titles do. Those three never did exist nor were intended to be part of the same timeline. Each was intended to be a different continuity/timeline/universe based on a common origin (i.e. the FNC mythology).

They probably are a tad more closely related to one another than they are to other FF universes (perhaps a "clusterverse" of sorts within the larger multiverse), but they're all still close enough neighbors as to have been affected by the gods of Dissidia.
 

Makoeyes987

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Smooth Criminal
Well I mean, the universes of Orience and Nova Crystalia/Coccoon must be adjacent since the same Pulse and Lindzei were able to influence and effect it as gods in hopes of opening Etro's Gate. Which of course means Bhunivelze also shares some sort of control of it given that was his ultimate goal before realizing opening a door to the afterlife was a supremely bad idea. :mon:

I always figured Orience was an experimental universe the gods of XIII dicked around with before finally resolving to try and pry open Etro's Gate in the world of FF XIII.
 

Makoeyes987

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Smooth Criminal
@Makoeyes987

They aren't the same Pulse and Lindzei (and Etro), though. They're a different universe's version of them.

Whoa, they aren't? What makes you say that?

I assumed that they were since I saw nothing in the game that says otherwise and their respective brands match the look they had in FFXIII. Like, I figured it was another world/universe but I thought they merely crossed over to experiment on Orience.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
I still see Dissidia as the bridge that connects XIII, Agito, and XV (aka "Versus XIII").... that's just my thoughts.
 

lithiumkatana17

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lith
Maybe? We don't know what her fate was to have been in her own story.


Considering Versus was once touted to have been the 'darkest, most tragic' Final Fantasy game, my guess is she was gonna die either way. :monster:

And boy, reading this thread makes my brain hurt. I love how @Makoeyes987 just comes back out of the blue and starts making me question everything I think I know. I live for these stimulating and riveting discussions.

Despite what's been said, I don't hold the alternate ending of Episode Ignis to be canon. Yes, I love happy endings, but I was more than satisfied with the original (plus it gave me fanfic fuel). Also, I became less of a fan of it after the divisive rift it caused between fans. That's why I was not happy to hear about SE's plans for a happy ending DLC. Even though Luna and Aranea's episodes got axed, I was kind of glad because that meant this shit would be cancelled too. I'm not salty about it or anything.

I swear I was going somewhere with this post, but I forgot. :closedmonster:
 

Makoeyes987

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Smooth Criminal
I mean, I have nothing against tragic endings, provided they fit the theme and are sensical to the story, and not just a seemingly rote outcome that seems suspiciously familiar to the previous titles said writer has worked on. I'm sorry, but Tabata has the strangest habit of having his protagonists die in sacrifice at the end of their stories, and it seems cliche at this point. He can tell a great story, but he apparently can only tell one kind of story.

And again, it's not about either ending being more canon or not. That's not really how that works. They're all canon to FFXV, and they have their place as what outcome is arrived to by the player in the story. FFXV is the closest thing to a FF with multiple endings. It has the original ending, and its alternate one that is akin to an alternate timeline where Ignis chooses differently. The original ending isn't being erased or cancelled, likewise the other one has its place too.

I will also say, that while the DLC episodes may be cancelled, don't be surprised if they come back as a novella or something. They said they'd tell their stories in another way so.. :mon:
 

Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
I mean, I have nothing against tragic endings, provided they fit the theme and are sensical to the story, and not just a seemingly rote outcome that seems suspiciously familiar to the previous titles said writer has worked on. I'm sorry, but Tabata has the strangest habit of having his protagonists die in sacrifice at the end of their stories, and it seems cliche at this point. He can tell a great story, but he apparently can only tell one kind of story.
In Tabata defense, in one of the stories the protagonist was already doomed by canon (Crisis Core), one of them was tied to the FNC mythos (Type-0), and the other came from remnants of the FNC mythos (XV) so I don't think there's enough to attribute this being trademark of him.
 

Makoeyes987

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Smooth Criminal
Um. It most certainly is his trademark.

Zack was doomed but
there's no similar plot constraint that dictated Class Zero had to die. What does the FNC mythos have to do with it? They didn't have to die in order to win, nor did they have to refuse being revived when Arecia offered to. The whole cast didnt die in FFXIII or Lightning Returns, so what's that got to do with FNC lore?

And as shown with Ignis, Noctis didn't need to die either. That was his writing choice. He's never had to repeat the winning formula that got him acclaim with Crisis Core. He just chose to.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I don't think Tabata even was a writer on XV. For all we know, Noctis dying might have been in there since the Nojima/Nomura Versus days.
 

Makoeyes987

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AKA
Smooth Criminal
Tabata was heavily involved in the direction and scenario writing of FFXV after it was taken out of Nomura's hands as FF Versus XIII. He even talked about how he added his own unique tastes and designs to it from the open world aspect to the emphasis on history and it was his decision to ignore the entire FNC history for FFXV entirely. He had to be talked into keeping the FNC mythology for Type-0 and he left it out for XV so it wouldn't "confuse" new players.

I mean, no. Tabata definitely laid his hand and mark as a writer on XV. He's credited as "director" but he isn't just a "director" same as Nomura was more than a "director" for VS XIII. Tabata took responsibility for the story of FFXV and threading it together out of development hell. So he certainly bears the responsibility of it's story, especially it's ending. There's no way it's not his.
 

The Twilight Mexican

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TresDias
Whoa, they aren't? What makes you say that?

I assumed that they were since I saw nothing in the game that says otherwise and their respective brands match the look they had in FFXIII. Like, I figured it was another world/universe but I thought they merely crossed over to experiment on Orience.

Sorry it took so long to respond to this. There's a lot of quotes, sources and even some translating that I had to pool to properly answer you.

On the subject of the Fabula Nova Crystallis titles, starting at a statement like this one from Motomu Toriyama that "they're set in different universes and worlds," and then taking into account that Lindzei's fal'Cie agent, Gala (possessing the corpse of Cid Aulstyne), referred to the students of Class Zero -- and thus, the people of Orience at large -- as "Those born from the blood of Etro," we would have to be dealing with different universes' versions of the gods. Etro didn't bleed out on both Gran Pulse and Orience, after all.

Of perhaps equal significance, on an occasion back when FFXV was still FFVersusXIII, Toriyama once also remarked "The development of the three games was started at the same time and we gathered to try and find a common platform to stand on and try to build from. But since then, we've been working completely independently of each other. Each game is evolving in its own direction and take place in separate worlds with their own main characters. There exists basically no cooperation between the different teams. I wouldn't even want to claim that we communicate with each other."

If they weren't communicating, they weren't coordinating plot developments where the gods are concerned.

Also, in another interview from this period, Yoshinori Kitase described the situation with the FNC titles as "they are all based upon the same legend and mythology of a crystal, and the different directors have interpreted that in their own way, and created their own freely-interpreted games about that myth."

In line with that, on yet another occasion, Kitase remarked that the official FNC mythology video doesn't offer concrete depictions of its gods so as to not impede each development team from creating their own take on these beings.

Hitting similar notes to Toriyama and Kitase, while discussing the ironically circuitous development path that led from FFAgitoXIII to FFType-0 to FFAgito, Hajime Tabata once remarked that "It's under the Fabula Nova Crystalis kind of concept, the idea, but the story will have very little or nothing to do with, say, Final Fantasy XIII. I don't think it was ever the intention for it to be directly related to XIII in general, so I wouldn't think too much about the XIII aspect. ... As far as Fabula Nova Crystalis, I kind of consider it a foundation for a mythology, the mythology of a certain culture or society, where the backbone of the whole story is based on the relationships between gods and how it affects the world. When you look at something like Greek mythology, it's under that general concept, but there are all kinds of stories that may not be directly related to each other at all. That's kind of how I see the Fabula Nova Crystalis concept."

One other round of observations to consider are the rules differences associated with the Type-series's l'Cie from those of the Lightning Saga -- for instance, Orience's l'Cie seemingly don't receive a physical fal'Cie brand. Instead, their brands only display themselves in the air near them as glowing glyphs.

These l'Cie also become functionally immortal (unless killed in battle), whereas those of Gran Pulse and Cocoon face a time limit to fulfill their Focus or else become Cie'th. A Type-series l'Cie only becomes a Cie'th if they choose to outright defy their Focus. Even simply never getting around to it doesn't seem to present a problem. Gilgamesh is described in the Rubicus as "a l'Cie who has forgotten his Focus" -- and in fact, he has actually already irrevocably failed it.

Equally significant a difference in these cosmologies, Orience's l'Cie can seemingly pass their status as l'Cie to a willing replacement (e.g. Qun'mi passed her powers to Machina), whereas we're never given any indication that this is possible on Gran Pulse.

Yet another startling difference is that, with the fading of the fal'Cie powers which branded them (i.e. with Arecia leaving and letting the four nations' crystals fade out), Orience's l'Cie will also die. Tabata revealed this in an interview when asked what would become of Nimbus, Gilgamesh, etc.

One final extremely noteworthy detail to take into account: despite FFAgito's depiction of the first turn in the spiral on Orience (in contrast to Type-0's depiction of the final round), the mobile game actually wasn't intended to be a prequel to Type-0. It was set in yet another alternate universe where the spiral would eventually culminate in the rise of an actual Agito -- which of course never came to pass in Type-0's Orience.

This detail was revealed in a 2014 Famitsu interview with Tabata and Masayasu Nishida (FFAgito's director):

----
The Agito is born from among the players!

――You recently did the first season, and the second season just started coming out, with the story of "Agito" progressing through periodic installments until it reaches the ending and loops back to the beginning, correct? From start to the ending like that is one season. Can you tell us more about that?

Nishida:
The story will be delivered in individual chapters, and one round of the story in the world of "Agito" will take about three months in the real world. If you played "Type-0," you know that the only outcome of its history to be found in the ending is one where the world is in ruin. So now, the story will change in accordance with the decisions to choices presented to players along the way. By taking players' intentions into account, it will become a different history from "Type-0," and one where the Agito will be born.

Tabata:
That's right. It was said in "Type-0" that the Agito was supppsed to be born, but they never did come into existence, did they? Even though it repeated several hundred million times, the Agito had not been born when the spiral ended. It's unsatisfying to leave it like that, isn't it? So. Now we're trying to make the Agito properly. (laughs)

――Now that you mention it ... (laughs)

Tabata:
So, history will change somewhere down the line and head toward a history where the Agito is born.

Nishida:
One could describe this as creating the Agito from among the players and imprinting that onto the history from "Type-0."
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Wow, that's really informative, thanks. That makes sense.

Personally, I always took the differing functions, abilities, and traits of L'Cie in Orience versus Pulse as reflective of the experimental nature and purpose of Orience. I just saw Orience as a "test bed" for opening Etro's Gate before Barthandalus's and Anima's plan was done and that it took place eons before Pulse was even thought of. But, given the widely differing mechanics not to mention the differing writers and lack of coordination... I guess it all fits regarding differences.

So presumably, there's another fucking Bhunivelze for Orience who probably is different than the one of FFXIII.

....And I had no fucking idea about that regarding FF-Agito. I did think it was just an alternate prequel or something. Had no idea that "Agito" was finally manifested there. That seems pretty dumb to have such a relevant thing happen in a freemium mobile game that had no worldwide release and was subsequently cancelled with nothing at all to show for it or anything. Especially with how much of a major change that ending is versus Type-0.

...This is kinda eerily reflective and similar to what happened with FFXV. Tabata does an awesome story, showcases a tragic, worldshattering ending, but then subsequently wishes to expand on said world and ending by giving the players a means of choice to give a more positive ending via their intervention in subsequent installments.... Only for it all to subsequently get cancelled in the future. :mon:

In retrospect it sorta feels like Tabata was kinda trapped in his own "spiral" not so dissimilar to Orience itself.
 
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