The Moral Principles in FF7

[Daikini-San]

So I'm not sure if there's a thread on this or not, but lately I've been thinking a lot about the moral aspects in FF7. I might be all over the place, but bear with me. Most people are taught what's right and wrong and most of us are in level 2 of Kohelberg's Moral Development; Conventional Morality. It's against the law to steal, it's against the law to take lives. We're taught early on what is wrong and right based on social constructs and religious backgrounds. But there's gray areas. So we know that killing people is wrong, right? (No pun intended lol) So if you take a life you're automatically considered a bad person regardless of the reason and you should be punished for it. Here's where things get a bit blurry. We have a military like Shinra does (without the mako enhancements) and they have people who teach other people to kill people who are bad people because they killed people. So who's the bad guy? Who's the good guy? There's a mother of three children who is homeless and has no food and has to steal to survive. Stealing is against the law. But she's stealing food to feed her kids. Is she the bad guy? One of the reasons why I like FF7 is that there's no clear cut protagonist and antagonist. On the surface level, yes there is. Cloud and Co. are the protagonists and Sephiroth and Shinra are the antagonists. However, Cloud and Co. are apart of Avalanche. They are considered a terrorist group because they blow up mako reactors and take innocent lives in the process. They are fighting against the evil corporation Shinra who are sucking the life out of the planet. In their eyes they are the good guys, but they killed people. Usually if one kills they aren't perceived very well. Shinra in their eyes are a business. They want to make money, that's what businesses do; however, the way they're going about it isn't morally correct either. They take out Avalanche's base by collapsing Sector 7 killing innocent people in the process. In Shinra's mind they're the good guys taking out the bad guys. But they both took lives, so who's really a good guy? A lot of these characters have reached level 3 of Kohelberg's Moral Development; Post-Conventional Morality. More specifically stage 5; Social Construct and Individual Rights. Rules/laws exist for the greater good but work against the interest of particular individuals. Shinra could follow the law and not kill anyone who's opposed their company and terrorists groups out to destroy their property, but as a business they'd continue to lose money from the damages and soon they'd have like half of the world against them. Unless Shinra decides to use another energy source other than mako that wouldn't damage the planet. Avalanche could follow the law and not blow up any reactors that could cost lives, but then their goal of saving the planet would become invalid, unless they found a less destructive way to take out the rectors. I personally think Sephiroth is at the last stage of moral development which is stage 6; Universal Principles. I'll have to talk about that another time. This post is getting quite long! ^^;

I can't post with any links yet because I'm still new. :/ So you'll have to look up the Kohelberg's Moral Development chart yourself.

 

[Roger]

"Sucking the life out of the Planet" is not hyperbole, FFVII's Planet is living being the suffering of which can be heard by Aerith, Cloud and others. Destroying the Lifestream will have immeadiate consequences. Shinra is not just a corrupt business exploiting human lives that have to be stopped for moral reasons, they are an existential threat to survival of everyone in FFVII. AVALANCHE, at the end of the day does serve an objectively greater good.

 

[Unit-01]

I'll post this video from Gameranx here and be on my way.

 

[Ghost X]

Look forward to seeing you argue Sephiroth being at a stage 6. I see him at a stage 1 . There's a bit of a difference.

 

[Daikini-San]

Look forward to seeing you argue Sephiroth being at a stage 6. I see him at a stage 1 . There's a bit of a difference.

Well I'm not that great at explaining certain things. I'll stick to the basic stuff. I was hoping this went better than I thought. Aw oh well to each their own.

 

[Daikini-San]

"Sucking the life out of the Planet" is not hyperbole, FFVII's Planet is living being the suffering of which can be heard by Aerith, Cloud and others. Destroying the Lifestream will have immeadiate consequences. Shinra is not just a corrupt business exploiting human lives that have to be stopped for moral reasons, they are an existential threat to survival of everyone in FFVII. AVALANCHE, at the end of the day does serve an objectively greater good.

Don't get me wrong, Shinra is a terrible company that needed to be stopped. But the way Cloud and Co. did with blowing up the reactors wasn't right either. There had to be a less destructive way. Innocent people were killed in the process regardless of what the reason may be. Granted, Cloud and Co. are regarded as heroes for stopping Shinra, but at the end of the day they'd be thrown in prison for murder right along with Sephiroth if FF7's world was like ours.

 

[Flintlock]

Look forward to seeing you argue Sephiroth being at a stage 6. I see him at a stage 1 . There's a bit of a difference.

Well, to quote Wikipedia:

Because post-conventional individuals elevate their own moral evaluation of a situation over social conventions, their behavior, especially at stage six, can be confused with that of those at the pre-conventional level.

Daikini: a few paragraph breaks in your opening post wouldn't go amiss to help readability.

 

[Roger]

Don't get me wrong, Shinra is a terrible company that needed to be stopped. But the way Cloud and Co. did with blowing up the reactors wasn't right either. There had to be a less destructive way. Innocent people were killed in the process regardless of what the reason may be. Granted, Cloud and Co. are regarded as heroes for stopping Shinra, but at the end of the day they'd be thrown in prison for murder right along with Sephiroth if FF7's world was like ours.

Sure, they'd be thrown in prison in our world (though the fact that they lived in a world where Shinra has muscled out all governments and law enforcements worldwide is part of the predicament that led to their drastic actions), but what exactly neccesitates that there must be a less destructive way? The Planet is an unjust place, maybe there just wasn't.

 

[Ghost X]

I think there are a lot of quotes by Sephiroth that place it firmly in the extreme ego category. I will search for them later . But for example: "Shall I give you despair?" How would it be good to want humans (or anything) to suffer? If humans had to die because it was universally good, I might buy it if the thing responsible didn't get off on unnecessary suffering.

 

[Daikini-San]

I think there are a lot of quotes by Sephiroth that place it firmly in the extreme ego category. I will search for them later . But for example: "Shall I give you despair?" How would it be good to want humans (or amything) to suffer? If humans had to die because it was universally good, I might buy it if the thing responsible didn't get off on unnecessary suffering.

Hmmm....I did some more research and you're right, he's stage one....but not after Nibelheim. He made up his own rules in FF7. Yeah he is sadistic which isn't right either....

 

[Daikini-San]

I'll post this video from Gameranx here and be on my way.

I just saw it thanks.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Re Sephiroth: I'm not sure he's even covered by kohleburg's scale because he doesn't consider himself human any more. He's a unique entity, a god. Stage 6 is exemplified by Kant's Categorical Imperative, "Act so that every action of yours can be taken as a universal law", in other words, act the way you deem it proper everybody else should act. But Sephiroth doesn't think anybody else should act as he does. He certainly wouldn't want anyone else to act as he does.

 

[Ghost X]

I think we're talking about moral agents, of which both humans are and "god" Sephiroth is.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

OK, but in any case Sephiroth is not acting as if his act should become a universal law. Does he believe that every person should act as he is acting? I am pretty sure he doesn't think normal humans should act as he is acting. He sees himself as unique and therefore actions that are "morally justifiable" for him would just be ridiculous if carried out by anyone else. Does Sephiroth even think in terms of morality? Of what he "ought" to do, rather than what he can do and what he wants to do?

 

[Daikini-San]

That's a good point, I completely looked over that. No I don't think he should expect others to act the way he does, that's asinine. For some reason I mistook stage 6 as a moral place where an individual makes the rules themselves and that's that. He or she doesn't follow a schema of morals like most do. So that's what I thought it meant. Sephiroth makes his own rules and no one else.

 

[paleofan]

First things first, why do everyone assume that people got killed in the reactor explosion? Let alone innocent victims? I'm pretty sure the only people who died in this mission are the soldiers that tried to kill Cloud and Barret. Allow me to explain myself.

This not a facility, this is a Mako reactor, in other words this is where the Lifestream is extracted and turned into Mako energy. It seems obvious to me that it must be very hazardous to get close to these machines while they are still working. Here is my point, Mako reactors are just the machines that turns the Lifestream into Mako energy, they are not made to have people into it. We can clearly see that since it's very risky just to access it (you have to walk on the pipes). The only people that must get there are technicians for the maintenance and scientists for studies. Jobs that doesn't require a permanent presence but rather occasional visits. Moreover, these visits must have lenghty preparations because they have to come equipped with hazmat suits, climbing gear and probably more in order to assure safety, so people must rarely get into it. There are many more reactors so we can also imagine that they momentarily stop one reactor when they need to get into it.

When Avalanche get into the reactor, it's still functioning and there is no one there, except for the soldiers that came after Avalanche in order to stop them. But wait there is more, see this picture?
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/samp/36.jpg
This is the entrance of the reactor. There are two things particular about this place. Firstly, as soon as you enter the reactor you won't fight human soldiers anymore during the random battles, there are only robots and monsters. Surely the soldiers that came to stop Avalanche knew the risks of going into a reactor so they didn't go in there but sent the robots and monsters instead. Secondly, this is where the explosion stops. The Avalanche members narrowly escaped the explosion by going to the left, the few soldiers that might still be there could have easily escaped by going to the right entrance.

That's why it's clear to me that the bombing mission didn't make any innocent victims. They destroyed a machine, not a facility, with no one but robots and monsters into it (unless Cloud and Barret defeated them all). The only people that got killed are the soldiers that actively engaged in a fight with Cloud and Barret, trying to kill them by shooting at them.

Moreover, I didn't know this "Kohelberg's Moral Development" model you based your entire post with but it seems rather limiting, especially for something like morals.

 

[Tennyo]

Actually, when you talk to Jesse afterwards she says the explosion was bigger than expected and even destoyed some nearby homes.

 

[Flintlock]

Cait Sith (i.e. Reeve) says that the explosion killed people:

Cait Sith
"When ya blew the Midgar No. 1 up, how many folks d'ya think
died?"

Barret
"...that was for the life of the planet. Ya gotta expect a few
casualties."

(Cait Sith turns away.)

Cait Sith
"A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is
everything to them who died......"

(A pause. He turns back to face Barret, who is still staring out the
window.)

Cait Sith
"Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good!"
"Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do
whatever y'all want?"

(Barret spins to face him.)

Barret
"I don't wanna hear that from no one in Shinra..."

(He turns back to the window. Cait Sith slumps down.)

Cait Sith
"......nuthin' I can do 'bout that..."

(Cloud turns to face them both.)

Cloud
"Stop it!"

Tifa
"Cait Sith...... Barret, he knows what he did."
"What we did in Midgar can't be forgotten no matter what the
reason."

Emphasis mine. Source.

Edit: Since I've got the script open anyway, here's some of Jessie's dialogue:

Jessie
"....Cloud... I'm glad.... I could talk with you one last time."

Cloud
Don't say 'last'......

Jessie
"That's.... all right......"
"Because of our actions... many....... people died...... this
probably.... is our punishment....."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The blast clearly spread well beyond the reactor since it caused a lot of damage in Loveless Avenue. Life and death in terrorist attacks is always strangely random, but the damage in Loveless Avenue was sufficient to suggest some people may have died there. My understanding was always that "innocent" people had died - though why reactor workers would not be described as innocent, I don't know. Moreover, Barret and Tifa would not feel the weight of guilt that they do if it had only been Shinra soldiers who died.

It will be interesting to see what the remake does with this.

 

[paleofan]

Then I guess we've got ourselves another inconsistency because how would the Avalanche team survive the explosion if it's range went that far beyond their position?

though why reactor workers would not be described as innocent, I don't know.

There weren't simple workers at the reactor, that was my whole point. We could clearly see that the whole thing was empty and it would make sense for no one to be there permanently. Unless they were invisible.

 

[Octo]

Avalanche nearly didn't survive. I assume for the most part they were protected by that tunnel thing they emerged from - that they had to blast their way out of. I don't think it's a situation where 100% of people in a X mile radius of the reactor were definitely killed, but there were definitely more fatalities than Jessie expected.

 

[Clement Rage]

The blast clearly spread well beyond the reactor since it caused a lot of damage in Loveless Avenue.

It did? My impression was that that was more from a panic riot because of the powercut than the explosion itself. Aeris comes by and has no idea what has just happened, she could hardly have missed an explosion that big.

Jessie says that the explosion was bigger than expected, I don't remember her saying anything about nearby homes. I think the real impression is most likely somewhere between the two stances.

Moreover, Barret and Tifa would not feel the weight of guilt that they do if it had only been Shinra soldiers who died.

Why do people assume this? Knowing that people will die as a result of your actions is not the same thing as being happy about it. Barret has a deep grudge against the Shinra, but we mainly see it when he encounters the top of the hierarchy, he is not Dyne, happy to kill anyone in a Shinra uniform and he never was. Half the party has worked for Shinra at some point, but he only holds grudges against the one that kidnapped his daughter.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The point is made while talking to an NPC that "If the explosion had been in the middle of the night, that woulda been one thing. At least the people coulda gone in their sleep" -- so that definitely suggests nearby homes were damaged, if not entirely engulfed, by the blast.

The only people that must get there are technicians for the maintenance and scientists for studies. Jobs that doesn't require a permanent presence but rather occasional visits.

In every real-world circumstance I can think of, maintenance technicians or operators of some sort are a permanent presence in any sizable factory or utilities facility. They certainly were in the factory where I used to make glue, and at the wastewater plant where I work now, it's state law that at least one certified operator be on the premises at all times.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The blast clearly spread well beyond the reactor since it caused a lot of damage in Loveless Avenue.

It did? My impression was that that was more from a panic riot because of the powercut than the explosion itself. Aeris comes by and has no idea what has just happened, she could hardly have missed an explosion that big.

Jessie says that the explosion was bigger than expected, I don't remember her saying anything about nearby homes. I think the real impression is most likely somewhere between the two stances.

All I can say is that the impression I always received was that the damage had spread well beyond the reactor. I could't find a video of just that bit, but hrere's the whole mission:

When Jessie blows the door open and the scene switches to the outside, you'll notice that the damage has spread to well beyond the reactor. One of the residential units in the top left corner looks as if its architectural integrity has been compromised. Rubble's strewn everywhere. In the next scene, one of the overhead signs in Loveless Avenue has come down. A panic riot couldn't do that. Cars have been overturned by the force of the blast. The Goblins Bar has been badly damaged; it looks as if the first floor has collapsed into the ground floor. Rubble from broken buildings is strewn as far as Fountain Square.

Also - this isn't in answer to Clem, but to someone who pointed out the damage couldn't have been that bad if Avalanche survived - did you know that a group of around 10 people were rescued from the North Tower of 9/11 after it collapsed? By sheer luck they happened to be in a part of the building where the physics of the collapse created a pocket of resistance, and so they weren't crushed.

Moreover, Barret and Tifa would not feel the weight of guilt that they do if it had only been Shinra soldiers who died.

Why do people assume this? Knowing that people will die as a result of your actions is not the same thing as being happy about it. Barret has a deep grudge against the Shinra, but we mainly see it when he encounters the top of the hierarchy, he is not Dyne, happy to kill anyone in a Shinra uniform and he never was. Half the party has worked for Shinra at some point, but he only holds grudges against the one that kidnapped his daughter.

Because Tifa and Barret felt they were fighting a war? I'm not saying they were happy about killing Shinra soldiers or felt no guilt about it, but it was a case of kill or be killed. It's part of the deal when you're a soldier that you might get killed; it's what you signed up for. Both in the game and in the novellas Tifa and Barret, but particularly Barret, are weighed down with guilt about the non-combatants they killed - as any decent human being would be.

Also, while not wishing to argue too much from game play, Tifa and Barret do "kill" an awful lot of Shinra soldiers on their way through the Shinra building. I cam't remember off the top of my head whether the party ever has a battle with an ordinary civilian.

 

[Tennyo]

Cait Sith (i.e. Reeve) says that the explosion killed people:

Cait Sith
"When ya blew the Midgar No. 1 up, how many folks d'ya think
died?"

Barret
"...that was for the life of the planet. Ya gotta expect a few
casualties."

(Cait Sith turns away.)

Cait Sith
"A few? Whaddya mean 'a few'? What may be a few to y'all is
everything to them who died......"

(A pause. He turns back to face Barret, who is still staring out the
window.)

Cait Sith
"Protect the planet. Hah! Y'all sure sound good!"
"Ain't no one that'd go against ya. So ya think ya can do
whatever y'all want?"

(Barret spins to face him.)

Barret
"I don't wanna hear that from no one in Shinra..."

(He turns back to the window. Cait Sith slumps down.)

Cait Sith
"......nuthin' I can do 'bout that..."

(Cloud turns to face them both.)

Cloud
"Stop it!"

Tifa
"Cait Sith...... Barret, he knows what he did."
"What we did in Midgar can't be forgotten no matter what the
reason."

Emphasis mine. Source.

Edit: Since I've got the script open anyway, here's some of Jessie's dialogue:

Jessie
"....Cloud... I'm glad.... I could talk with you one last time."

Cloud
Don't say 'last'......

Jessie
"That's.... all right......"
"Because of our actions... many....... people died...... this
probably.... is our punishment....."

Thank you for bringing up the Cait Sith bit. I was going to mention it but didn't have time to write it out.