The OG+the Compilation

[Eerie]

I think I understand what @DutchDread is saying, to an extend. Because, actually, me and my husband have had that love at first sight thing - that was more than 23 years ago, for context. Roughly two weeks after meeting each other, we were together. But the thing is, if he or I had died right prior to us getting together, I don't see any of us getting stuck in "s/he was my forever true love". The feelings were genuine, but I can safely say that they did grow a lot more over the years, as various hurdles were overcome together. I think that's what @DutchDread is getting at, so to speak.

For Cloud, it's a little bit more difficult, but I think that he had genuine interest and love for Aerith, that he does hold her dear to his heart (and that he did feel a lot of guilt because of her death), but I don't think you can say that she's his one true love because this, to me, means that you can overcome difficulties together over the years, and I don't feel that CxA have that. They have never been shown been doing that, in fact when Aerith had the choice of staying by Cloud's side to help him or go to help the Planet, she chose the latter. And I feel that's what Nojima was refering to when he said that had thsoe two become an item, they would have a lot of troubles due to Aerith being a Cetra. Because being a Cetra eventually meant that she is called to a certain destiny that cannot wait, so that means that she can't really help Cloud in the meantime. And to me and probably a few other cloti, that's not what being a couple is.

 

[DutchDread]

Yeah, I think you get what I am saying. There is no doubt in my mind that you can be instantly smitten by someone, and have very strong feelings of desire, affection, etc, for them. Endorphins flooding through your brain, immediately wanting to be by their side, etc.
But the thing is, we usually depict love as the thing that remains when those Endorphins and that rush, are gone.

For me at least, I know that there was a girl I once knew where each time I saw her I longed after her, and was nervous, and my heart was beating faster, and when I was with her I was in a romantic haze almost. But that faded, and what was left was not the feelings my grandmother felt at 88 years old when my grandfather returned from the hospital and she, despite the fact that she couldn't really walk, stood up from her chair to kiss him home.

Conversely, there is a girl that I was originally interested in only for her body, because I was now older and more jaded. But through finding out who she was, I eventually changed to the point where the idea of just being with her and cleaning our apartment together was more appealing to me than the thought of having sex with the girl that once caused my heart to beat faster. Even the things that once annoyed me had become treasured parts of what made her, her.

To me, love isn't a momentary emotion, it's deeper, it is something that is a part of your life, which takes time.

And that's I think what defines love for me more than anything, the concept of someone being a part of "us" instead of being a separate individual somewhere in the world. I love my brother, not because he's on my mind every part of the day, but because I can't imagine my life without him in it. If he weren't there, then a part of ME would be missing, the thought of him not being there is fundamentally wrong, because the thing that I describe as "me", the thing that describes my life, who I am, etc, has him as a part of me as much as my own arm.

At no point during the OG did I get that sense of "us-ness" from Cloud and Aerith, and I personally argue, that the first thing that could in my mind be reasonably described as love is the moment Tifa decided to stay with Cloud in the hospital, the moment she decided that there was no "her and him", only a "them".

Certainly, I think Aeriths death, and the meaning Cloud gives to that, makes it so that she becomes a treasured memory, and over time, I think that becomes ingrained in him enough to be called love, the same way I think that what Cloud feels for Zack two years later can also be called love.
But these are all separate and unique feelings, and do not match with the love a husband and a wife feel in the moment.

But the thing is, if he or I had died right prior to us getting together, I don't see any of us getting stuck in "s/he was my forever true love". The feelings were genuine, but I can safely say that they did grow a lot more over the years, as various hurdles were overcome together

Well said, can I ask you, say you hadn't seen him anymore, say it was just on a vacation, you didn't take the chance, and you went your separate ways. Later, you met someone else, had children, overcome hurdles, etc. And someone were to ask you what you felt for the original man.
Would you say it was "love"? or would you have said you were "in love"?. Would you find it a meaningful distinction?

 

[BlankBeat]

Why do I do this to myself...!?!?

Hoping a pile on doesn't begin.

Also -- I don't know how much time & energy I'll be able to give this debate. Might be replying sporadically.

Only a Clerith deals in absolutes, she's not not lying, she's just making an offhand comment, she thinks of him as a bit of a sweetheart, sure, I have no problems with that, I've thought that about many people in my life.

If Aerith views Cloud as her lover, we should trust her. SE has given us no reason to think Aerith is a liar. Nor do I think they would write her as one.

You are trying to minimize and downplay her statement as an "offhand" comment. A very clever tactic. But I don't buy it.

If Aerith states Cloud is her lover, he is her lover. Period.

(Furthermore, Terra in WoFF confirms that Cloud loved Aerith. I don't care if it's not within the compilation. SE has confirmed, through Terra, that Cloud loved Aerith. Period.)

Unless we can debate from the same starting point (ie: Cloud loved Aerith romantically), there is no hope for us to engage in a worthwhile conversation.

Aerith called Cloud her sweatheart because she had a crush on (fake) Cloud.

On the "normally occurring" Clerith Gold Saucer date, Aerith states that although she initially liked Cloud because of Zack, she now likes Cloud for Cloud.

I thought the (fake) Cloud nonsense had stopped?

If all of Cloud's interactions with Aerith are tainted because of Zack, why would Cloud feel guilt towards her death?

If Cloud was Zack, wouldn't that suggest Cloud should feel nothing towards Aerith because everything he ever did or said to her was tainted because of Zack? Do you honestly think SE agrees with that assessment?

I guess SE created an entire star-crossed romance between Cloud and Aerith and want us to go "oh, that was just Zack!"

Really...!?!?

Why is Cloud guilty in AC if he was Zack?

It just doesn't make any sense what-so-ever.

That doesn't make it particularly deep, it doesn't say anything about who she prefers, Cloud or Zack, it doesn't say anything about whether or not those feelings are reciprocated, and it doesn't say anything about whether those feelings are justified, IE, are they just the result of her enjoying her time with fake Cloud (which means it's potentially just her liking Zack), or are they the result of a measured appreciation of Clouds character? Which we know it can't be, since Aerith doesn't know Clouds real character, as she admits.

Aerith:
......first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike.
Two completely different people, but look exactly the same.
The way you walk, gesture...
I think I must have seen him again, in you...
But you're different.
Things are different.

"Things" are different. Aerith now likes Cloud for Cloud.

At the end of the day, Cloud wasn't Zack. He adopted a few memories from a specific moment in time and that was it. There was no transformation.

Cloud is emo and introverted. Zack is happy and outgoing. Cloud retains his emo and introverted personality during disc 1.

Furthermore, Cloud didn't recognize Aerith. If Cloud was Zack, why didn't he recognize Aerith?

Are we saying literally everything Cloud did during disc 1 is somehow tainted because of Zack?

Are we saying disc 1 Cloud was actually Zack? Where is this stated by SE?

Just because someone is wrong, inaccurate, uses imprecise language, or makes an offhand remark, doesn't mean they're instantly a liar. It's just another remark that has to be taking into
account when evaluating what the characters overall, every changing emotions are throughout the story.
At WORST, she's lying to herself, it's not like she knows people are reading her thoughts and is trying to deceive them. People can be wrong, or lie, or be inconsistent, or change their minds, even to themselves.

So...

SE created a star-crossed romance to make Aerith's death that much more meaningful and impactful to Cloud.

But then they want us to think Aerith is lying to herself about Cloud being her "koibito"? You expect me to believe that?

Ok, but that's you guiding the evidence. That's you desperately going "damn, he has to waver somewhere, how can I interpret that and try to fit it so that he's still obsessed with Aerith years later.
It's simply an unreasonable interpretation, and when you say you believe it, I don't believe you're being intellectually honest.

Cloud "wavers" to Tifa during childhood and during the variable Highwind scene. The star-crossed romance between Cloud and Aerith happens regardless.

Cloud and Tifa don't work out:

Nojima speaks of a premise that things won’t go well between Cloud & Tifa:
“…there’s a premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same.” ~Kazushige Nojima

Marlene observes that Cloud & Tifa aren’t getting along well:
“…she told Barret in a sad voice, “Cloud and Tifa aren’t getting along very well.” ~Case of Tifa

Tifa admits her & Cloud aren’t a “real” family:
“Tifa turns away, disappointed. “I guess that only works for real families.“ ~Case of Tifa

But before I get to that, let me ask you something about programming, just as an example.
What do you think the difference is between a character starting with 20 fewer affection points, and needing the same number of affection points to win, or a character starting with the SAME number of affection points, but requiring 20 more than the other, in order to win?

Why is the Clerith Gold Saucer date stated to be the "normally" occurring date?

The likelihood that gamers are going to pick EVERY SINGLE pro-Tifa option is very unlikely.

Therefore, Aerith is favored from the very start of the game. She is the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

SE wanted gamers to get the Clerith date so that when she died, it was much more impactful and meaningful.

Whether Cait Sith is reliable or not is beside the point. His lines are designed by SE to set gamers up for a tragic star-crossed romance between Cloud and Aerith.

That's why Aerith's date is the "normally occurring" date. Having her date makes her death more meaningful and impactful. She is the PRIMARY love interest. The main narrative favors Cloud and Aerith together as star-crossed lovers.

Tifa only stands a chance once Aerith is dead, and even then, Nojima and Marlene observe that Cloud and Tifa don't work out, and Tifa is jealous of Cloud's continued feelings of LOVE for Aerith.

I am sorry but it really isn't, I've literally never seen it like that, even in real life I've noticed that jealousy is often, if not most of the time, unfounded.

Tifa was jealous in the Shinra jail cell for a founded reason.

Tifa isn't Jealous of Clouds feelings, she isn't a mind reader, she's jealous because of her interpretation of his actions.
Tifa has even less to go by than we, she doesn't see his inner monologues, she doesn't see creator statements about why Cloud does what he does.
All she sees is Cloud running away from home, living in a church of a girl that she once competed with.
And she, like most people would, gets jealous. But that simply says nothing about the reasons Cloud does the things he does, and we KNOW the reasons and they have nothing to do with love.

Cloud's heart is stated to crack at Aerith's grave. Tifa gets jealous that Cloud visited Aerith's grave. I'm simply connecting the dots. Common sense. Tifa's jealousy is 100% warranted.

It's been stated again and again that it's about guilt, that he's happy with Tifa but is being consumed by guilt and fear of losing this too.
Now that doesn't mean that he doesn't ALSO happen to love Aerith, it just proves that Tifa would be jealous of Aerith whether Cloud loves her or not. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

Guilt... due to letting the woman he loved die (Terra in WoFF confirms this).

And just to preemptively address Zack: Cloud's guilt over Zack is due to platonic love. Cloud's guilt over Aerith is due to romantic love. Zack isn't in the love triangle like Aerith is.

I don't understand why people say Cloud's guilt isn't directly tied to the romantic feelings he developed for her.

The entire point of Cloud and Aerith's romance was to make her death that much more impactful and meaningful. An OBVIOUS star-crossed romance.

And if Cloud wasn't his REAL self, why would he have any feelings at all towards Aerith dying?

If Cloud was Zack, why would REAL Cloud feel guilty about Aerith's death?

Well, because it is, obviously so, not only is it unrealistic to be hung up your entire life on someone you've known for a week, it's also unhealthy, obsessive, and anathema to themes of moving on. It's even insulting to Aeriths memory, since she, more than anyone else, would immediately want Cloud to start moving on and getting together with Tifa. There is no bigger Cloti fan than dead Aerith, that I guarantee you.

Honestly, after regaining his memories, Cloud having anything but confused feelings that he's unsure of how to place would be bad writing.
But eternal romantic love for the girl he knew for one week, the girl that he didn't even universally prefer over the other girl that he's known his entire life, and is spending the rest of his life with, and who saved him by reminding him of his love for her, that would honestly be twilight levels of bad writing.

Typical. Minimizing and diminishing Cloud and Aerith's relationship by saying they only knew each other for a week. Would SE agree that their relationship is somehow "lesser" due to only knowing each other for a short amount of time?

TBH -- the fact that such a deep and long-lasting connection developed between Cloud and Aerith in such a short amount of time is FURTHER proof of how much Aerith means to Cloud.

Besides, star-crossed romances are supposed to happen fast and hard, and then abruptly end in tragedy. That's literally the entire point.

Furthermore, Cloud and Aerith's star-crossed romance plays out during the longest and best disc of the game.

Then, later, after Cloud regains all of his memories, he states he remembers Aerith "a lot" in Cosmo Canyon. If Cloud was Zack during disc 1, why would he remember Aerith "a lot"?

This is one of the problems with Clerith as a ship, it poisons the concept of love, making it meaningless by putting it on the level of a unfounded, unhealthy obsession.

SE is the one who shows Cloud consistently searching for ways to be with Aerith in cameos -- reuniting in flower fields, etc. I guess you'll have to write a letter to SE about showcasing such an unhealthy relationship?

Lots of people love the idea of soulmates reuniting after death and in different universes. Look at the movie "Titanic."

Given the fantasy world of FFVII, the idea of a reunion between soulmates within the Promised Land is extremely compelling writing. You and I fundamentally disagree.

Bottom line: lots of shippers love when Cloud and Aerith are shown reuniting in other games and universes. That's what makes a fantasy world so beautiful -- soulmates are able to reunite even after death.

Just as Rose returns to Jack after she dies, we believe Cloud will return to Aerith after he dies. Soulmates reuniting.

 

[DutchDread]

If Aerith states Cloud is her lover, he is her lover. Period.

You can keep trying to translate Japanese as if it's just English with different words, but the fact is, it isn't. Aerith never said Cloud was her lover, you are simply factually wrong there.

Unless we can debate from the same starting point (ie: Cloud loved Aerith romantically), there is no hope for us to engage in a worthwhile conversation.

Then I suppose the conversation ends there, because no, I can't agree to that, because you've simply failed to show that it's true. Terras words in WoFF fundamentally have no more authority than even just yours or mine, it simply doesn't matter what she says. Which is why I am not even gonna go into the specifics of the fact that you're misrepresenting what she said, because even if Terra said, literally "I see that you have eternal undying romantic love for Aerith and NO ONE ELSE".....It still would be zero% relevant. If you want to argue with someone, you'll need to bring up things that they find relevant, you might think that Terras statement matters, but I assure you, no one who disagrees with you does. Hell, I assure you not even SE thinks it's relevant.

I think the rest of your post was just factually inaccurate as well, but like you said, if you are unwilling to discus your premises, then there is really no point in continuing.

Btw, for future reference, the main problem with your reply, which can be seen in the other replies as well (like the ones about jealousy), is that it assumes that humans are perfectly logical beings, they aren't, which means all these arguments inherently fail to achieve lift off.

 

[BlankBeat]

You can keep trying to translate Japanese as if it's just English with different words, but the fact is, it isn't. Aerith never said Cloud was her lover, you are simply factually wrong there.

Then I suppose the conversation ends there, because no, I can't agree to that, because you've simply failed to show that it's true. Terras words in WoFF have no more authority as yours or mine, it simply doesn't matter what she says. Which is why I am not even gonna go into the specifics of what she's actually saying, because even of Terra said, literally "I see that you have eternal undying romantic feelings for Aerith and NO ONE ELSE".....It still would be zero% relevant. If you want to argue with someone, you'll need to bring up things that they find relevant, you might think that Terras statement matters, but I assure you, no one who disagrees with you does.

I think the rest of your post was just factually inaccurate as well, but like you said, if you are unwilling to discus your premises, then there is really no point in continuing.

Btw, for future reference, the main problem with your reply, which can be seen in the other replies as well (like the ones about jealousy), is that it assumes that humans are perfectly logical beings, they aren't, which means all these arguments inherently fail to achieve lift off.

"And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time was something new.”
~10th Anniversary Ultimania

That should be the quote that begins any LTD debate.

Cloud "wavers" between both heroines at different points.

My POV is that Cloud wavers to Tifa during childhood and after Aerith's death, but that Tifa doesn't stand a chance in hell when Aerith is alive (ie: Shinra jail cell).

I also believe that Cloud and Tifa don't work out (ie: Nojima + Marlene), and Cloud is shown continually seeking a reunion with Aerith, which is why Tifa becomes jealous for an entirely justifiable reason (ie: Cloud prefers Aerith and Tifa knows it).

And I know WoFF shouldn't be discussed in this thread, but I really think it needs to be said in order to start the debate from the same place.

SE created Terra's words.

To say her words are irrelevant is only because it disproves the idea that Cloud never loved Aerith.

It is convenient to say "well, that's technically not in the compilation, so it doesn't matter!"

Yes. It matters. It proves that SE, as a company, thinks Cloud loves Aerith.

Fundamentally, this is a love triangle.

There is love between all 3 members of the love triangle.

There are love points. There are dates.

There are predictions about having a great future together and losing someone dear.

Cloud and Aerith are an obvious, clear-cut, star-crossed love story designed to fuel the love triangle and make Aerith's death that much more impactful and meaningful to both Cloud and those playing the game.

I don't know why all of this is so hard to comprehend.

To me, it is very easy to understand.

Cloud wavers to Tifa during childhood and during the variable Highwind scene. You can optionally rekindle a childhood crush through a variable scene.

However, the star-crossed love story between Cloud and Aerith is non-optional and non-variable. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest.

Later, after Aerith's death, Cloud and Tifa don't work out as observed by Nojima and Marlene. Then, Cloud continues to seek out ways to be with Aerith.

The fact that Cloud is shown still seeking the only other woman in the 3-person love triangle is pretty compelling evidence that Aerith is #1 and Tifa is #2.

Cloud "WAVERS" to both heroines. But he obviously prefers Aerith, and even Tifa herself knows this to be true.

The main narrative favors Cloud with Aerith due to the fact that Aerith dies. Aerith's death is why Cloud and Aerith are the primary couple that is pushed on you through the main narrative.

Tifa is how you play the game on a second playthrough. The beginning love point totals suggest this is the case. SE wants the majority of gamers to play it the Aerith way on their first playthrough. That's why the Clerith date is the "normally occurring" date.

And it is truly sad how Cloud adopting a few memories from Zack has been used for years to discredit, diminish, and invalidate Clerith.

Do we honestly believe SE created an entire star-crossed romance between Cloud and Aerith, and want us to go "well, that's just Zack!"

Really...?

Supposedly, all of Cloud's interactions with Aerith are tainted by Zack, yet somehow, REAL Cloud still feels guilt over her death in AC? ...WTF?

At the end of the day, Aerith moves on from Zack. Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack but grows to like Cloud for Cloud. We know this from her words on the "normally occurring" Gold Saucer date. Zack isn't even in the love triangle.

Ugh.

I do feel like a broken record.

Adios!!

 

[Ruri]

Cloud and Tifa don't work out:

Nojima speaks of a premise that things won’t go well between Cloud & Tifa:
“…there’s a premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same.” ~Kazushige Nojima

Marlene observes that Cloud & Tifa aren’t getting along well:
“…she told Barret in a sad voice, “Cloud and Tifa aren’t getting along very well.” ~Case of Tifa

Tifa admits her & Cloud aren’t a “real” family:
“Tifa turns away, disappointed. “I guess that only works for real families.“ ~Case of Tifa

I did ask you to not hold a magnifying glass to Cloud and Tifa's rough patch to prove your point. It doesn't work in debating because of that selective bias. So, I'm gonna lay out the Cloud/Tifa goodness for everyone to make it fair and the counter points to these quotes in particular.

The premise:

@BlankBeat Nojima speaks of a premise that things won’t go well between Cloud & Tifa:

“…there’s a premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without geostigma or Sephiroth, this might be the same.” ~Kazushige Nojima

The ending:

“Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened ‘Seventh Heaven’ bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears. Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.”

@BlankBeat Marlene observes that Cloud & Tifa aren’t getting along well:

“…she told Barret in a sad voice, “Cloud and Tifa aren’t getting along very well.” ~Case of Tifa

... because:

“The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…”

--

@BlankBeat: Tifa admits her & Cloud aren’t a “real” family:

“Tifa turns away, disappointed. “I guess that only works for real families.“ ~Case of Tifa

Cloud's feelings on whether Tifa is his family or not:

3. “With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.”

and

“I want to see Cloud — Marlene’s honest words, which reflected what Tifa felt in her own heart, caused her to smile. The present Tifa isn’t just Cloud’s childhood friend, but also the mother of the ‘family’ they were forming in Edge.”

Source/Credit

And it is truly sad how Cloud adopting a few memories from Zack has been used for years to discredit, diminish, and invalidate Clerith.

There's a whole lot of diminishing and discrediting the friendship between Aerith and Tifa coming from your posts. Diminishing Tifa to a character who feels only insecurity and jealousy. Discrediting Cloud/Tifa by using another games cameos?

Annnnnnd @BlankBeat is like a wild rare pokemon, fleeing. I'll come with a master ball next time.

 

[DutchDread]

"And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time was something new.”
~10th Anniversary Ultimania

That should be the quote that begins any LTD debate.

Cloud "wavers" between both heroines at different points.

My POV is that Cloud wavers to Tifa during childhood and after Aerith's death, but that Tifa doesn't stand a chance in hell when Aerith is alive (ie: Shinra jail cell).

I also believe that Cloud and Tifa don't work out (ie: Nojima + Marlene), and Cloud is shown continually seeking a reunion with Aerith, which is why Tifa becomes jealous for an entirely justifiable reason (ie: Cloud prefers Aerith and Tifa knows it).

And I know WoFF shouldn't be discussed in this thread, but I really think it needs to be said in order to start the debate from the same place.

SE created Terra's words.

To say her words are irrelevant is only because it disproves the idea that Cloud never loved Aerith.

It is convenient to say "well, that's technically not in the compilation, so it doesn't matter!"

Yes. It matters. It proves that SE, as a company, thinks Cloud loves Aerith.

Fundamentally, this is a love triangle.

There is love between all 3 members of the love triangle.

There are love points. There are dates.

There are predictions about having a great future together and losing someone dear.

Cloud and Aerith are an obvious, clear-cut, star-crossed love story designed to fuel the love triangle and make Aerith's death that much more impactful and meaningful to both Cloud and those playing the game.

I don't know why all of this is so hard to comprehend.

To me, it is very easy to understand.

Cloud wavers to Tifa during childhood and during the variable Highwind scene. You can optionally rekindle a childhood crush through a variable scene.

However, the star-crossed love story between Cloud and Aerith is non-optional and non-variable. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest.

Later, after Aerith's death, Cloud and Tifa don't work out as observed by Nojima and Marlene. Then, Cloud continues to seek out ways to be with Aerith.

The fact that Cloud is shown still seeking the only other woman in the 3-person love triangle is pretty compelling evidence that Aerith is #1 and Tifa is #2.

Cloud "WAVERS" to both heroines. But he obviously prefers Aerith and even Tifa herself knows this to be true.

The main narrative favors Cloud with Aerith due to the fact that Aerith dies. Aerith's death is why Cloud and Aerith are the primary couple that is pushed on you through the main narrative.

Tifa is how you play the game on a second playthrough. The beginning love point totals suggest this is the case. SE wants the majority of gamers to play it the Aerith way on their first playthrough. That's why the Clerith date is the "normally occurring" date.

And it is truly sad how Cloud adopting a few memories from Zack has been used for years to discredit, diminish, and invalidate Clerith.

Do we honestly believe SE created an entire star-crossed romance between Cloud and Aerith, and want us to go "well, that's just Zack!"

Really...?

Supposedly, all of Cloud's interactions with Aerith are tainted by Zack, yet somehow, REAL Cloud still feels guilt over her death in AC? ...WTF?

At the end of the day, Aerith moves on from Zack. Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack but grows to like Cloud for Cloud. We know this from her words on the "normally occurring" Gold Saucer date. Zack isn't even in the love triangle.

Ugh.

I do feel like a broken record.

Adios!!

Thought you said there was no point in discussing further?
Adios.

Annnnnnd @BlankBeat is like a wild rare pokemon, fleeing. I'll come with a master ball next time

It's just, every sentence is blatantly wrong and misrepresented, but there is just so much of it that I just can't muster up the patience to actually address it. I can deal with someone being wrong on 1 or 2 points. But I don't know how you muster up the patience to respond to people who fundamentally skew and misrepresent every quote and argument from the bottom on up. Don't you at some point think this is a waste of time?

 

[Ruri]

@DutchDread I know I sound mad but I think I just want some LTD discussion really, whatever it is. The remake thread doesn't have much activity these past few days and I don't know where else you can discuss the LTD as healthily as you can than this site. Every other corner on the internet is either biased or toxic or both. I do understand what you're saying though. I'll linger as long as I enjoy the debate, really.

also the quote formatting that I still managed to mess up in the end was the most tiring!!

 

[DutchDread]

@DutchDread I know I sound mad but I think I just want some LTD discussion really, whatever it is. The remake thread doesn't have much activity these past few days and I don't know where else you can discuss the LTD as healthily as you can than this site. Every other corner on the internet is either biased or toxic or both. I do understand what you're saying though. I'll linger as long as I enjoy the debate, really.

also the quote formatting that I still managed to mess up in the end was the most tiring!!

Yeah I noticed that as well, because of that, I just no longer respond when I think someone is being intellectually dishonest, or is just clearly only interested in asserting that they're right, instead of actually being interested in why people think they're wrong. If someone isn't interested in why people think they're wrong, it's really not worth responding to I've found.

Quick way to see is if someone responds to one point by instead bringing up 20 points. Clear indication that they're just trying to muddy the water and divert attention in my experience.

Cloud wavers to Tifa during childhood and during the variable Highwind scene.

I know we are supposed to follow the charity principle here but I just don't believe anyone would genuinely think this, and if they do, then honestly, what is the point of talking to them, you won't change their minds with reason, because reason isn't why they believe it.

I just want some LTD discussion really, whatever it is

This I understand though, cause so do I, as long as it's a conversation, and not a sermon. Would talking to someone who agrees with you be ok? Otherwise just start talking, and I am sure I will run into something I disagree with eventually.

 

[Yumelinh]

Don't stress too much over it @DutchDread! That's just how BB rolls in the LTD thread, you gonna get used to it in a while ^^

Now @BlankBeat, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I was glad to see you back. It's always good to have someone with a different point of view to make us question our own perspectives.

That said...

You should really reflect the way you've been interpreting Tifa in your "POVs", really. You're accusing people of diminishing Clerith while reducing Tifa to nothing more than a sad and jealous character who Cloud just settled because he couldn't be with Aerith. You also diminishing Cloud's character in the process by making him someone who would do such a thing to a woman he knows that loves him. You can keep trying to prove Clerith ( or disprove Cloti) without the need to diminish these characters in such a way. I know you can do that if you at least try...

Well, I know you not gonna answer me anyway .....I hope you read it at least.

Back to the shadows, I go.

btw, @Ruri! Great post!

 

[BlankBeat]

@Ruri

Most of your post was about how Cloud and Tifa are a "family."

Well, Barret is also a member of the Seventh Heaven family:

“Barret turned round and shouted, “Do your best!” His voice was a little shaky. “Unite the family’s strength and keep at it!”
~Case of Tifa

“Upon finding out that Edge was under attack during the midst of his travels, he rushed over towards the crisis faced by his family and companions.”
~10th Anniversary Ultimania

Once Barret is back after his journey, it is back to the original Seventh Heaven family.

CxT have zero explicit moments of romance & Cloud believes Aerith brought him Denzel.

Barret returns to living with Cloud & Tifa in DoC.

How Denzel personally views Cloud & Tifa doesn't prove anything other than the perspective of a young child who lived with Cloud & Tifa while Barret was gone.

Tifa is still listed as a mere "childhood friend" in DoC.

CxT share zero moments of romance in DoC (not even a brief moment of physical chemistry).

Until SE specifies that Cloud and Tifa get married, have their own children together, or Tifa is upgraded to something other than "childhood friend," nothing has been definitely established.

I have yet to see anything romantic between Cloud and Tifa post-AC.

DoC suggests nothing more than 3 friends living together.

And before you say, "well, Aerith hasn't been updated to girlfriend status, either!" -- I'll just respond with: I'm not saying Cloud and Aerith became a couple. I'm saying that if Aerith had lived, Cloud would have ended up with her. I'm saying that Cloud's actions show his preference is Aerith over Tifa -- a preference that even Tifa knows to be true.

If y'all are gonna say Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, you gotta prove it with a quote or scene post-AC. Right now, Tifa is listed as a "childhood friend"in DoC, and they live with Barret. Where's the romance? Where's the love? Where's the beef?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Until SE specifies that Cloud and Tifa get married, have their own children together, or Tifa is upgraded to something other than "childhood friend," nothing has been definitely established.

I thought you acknowledged in our conversation that she's also been described as koibito to him?

 

[DutchDread]

Remember kids, if you're adopted, you don't count.

 

[BlankBeat]

I thought you acknowledged in our conversation that she's also been described as koibito to him?

Yep. I did.

Tifa is Cloud's childhood "koibito."

However, it is up to interpretation if they are together post-AC.

The very reason SE still shows Cloud seeking a reunion with Aerith is because they want everything to be up to interpretation. This is a love triangle where one girl starts off with 20 more points than the other.

You can interpret Cloud and Tifa living with Barret as romantic. But it isn't official.

My interpretation is that Cloud would have ended up with Aerith had she lived, and continues to seek her even in death (this is a fantasy game, after-all). Therefore, Cloud's preference is and always remains with Aerith. Doesn't mean he can't still be with Tifa (if you view it that way). Just means Cloud and Tifa aren't official and that Cloud's preference is still for Aerith regardless of if he gets with Tifa or not. As Cait Sith would say -- "Poor Tifa!"

EDIT:

Remember kids, if you're adopted, you don't count.

Of course Denzel is going to view the only man and only woman that live in the household as his Mom and Dad. But how Denzel views Cloud and Tifa has no relevance towards how they view each other. Nor does it change the fact that Barret returns to living with all of them in DoC.

PS:

Cloud believes Denzel was brought to him by Aerith. Such beautiful symbolism.

 

[DutchDread]

This is a love triangle where one girl starts off with 20 more points than the other.

Again, having studied game design, I can tell you this is not how programming mechanics translate to in universe emotions.

 

[BlankBeat]

Again, having studied game design, I can tell you this is not how programming mechanics translate to in universe emotions.

Yet the Clerith date is the "normally occurring" date because the main narrative favors Clerith due to Aerith's death and the star-crossed romance. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

 

[DutchDread]

Yet the Clerith date is the "normally occurring" date because the main narrative favors Clerith due to Aerith's death and the star-crossed romance. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

Unfortunately, having studied game design, I can tell you that narrative doesn't equal plot. Cloud is also a soldier in the narrative.

 

[BlankBeat]

Unfortunately, having studied game design, I can tell you that narrative doesn't equal plot. Cloud is also a soldier in the narrative.

Hope you read my response to your "adoptive kids" don't count comment.

And I guess since you "studied game design," you are now the official Judge Judy of the LTD debate. LMAO.

Aerith starts off with more love points than Tifa because SE wants it to be easier to obtain the Clerith date. Why? So her death is more impactful and meaningful to both Cloud and those playing the game. Clerith is pushed more heavily than Cloti due to the main narrative.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[DutchDread]

SE wants it to be easier to obtain the Clerith date. Why? So her death is more impactful and meaningful to both Cloud and those playing the game

Bingo!

That's true, the problem is, the logical chain ends there. It's when you try to extrapolate from that that your argument loses cohesion.

But question, why does it matter to you if Tifa and Cloud have a kid of their own? I mean, SE said he wavered between Aerith and Tifa right? So it's just common sense that that means that he wavered for an extra night, and then went back to platonically raising their one night stand baby together while trying to get back to Aerith?

 

[BlankBeat]

Bingo!

That's true, the problem is, the logical chain ends there. It's when you try to extrapolate from that that your argument loses cohesion.

Aerith from the beginning stages of development was the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

Aerith starting off with 20 more points than Tifa reflects this fundamental fact.

SE wants most gamers to play FFVII the Aerith way. Why? Because from the very beginning stages of development, Aertih was the original love interest and her story is the main narrative (ie: she dies to save the Planet). Tifa is and always was an after-thought.

 

[DutchDread]

Aerith from the beginning stages of development was the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

Irrelevant to final product, Aerith was also Sephiroths sister and lover.

Aerith starting off with 20 more points than Tifa reflects this fundamental fact.

Speculation, and not one that follows logically.

SE wants most gamers to play FFVII the Aerith way.

Speculation, and unfounded, doesn't take into account the inherent differences between first and second playthroughs. Nor does it have relevance to who the romantic lead is in the plot. This argument is a dead end.

Aertih was the original love interest and her story is the main narrative (ie: she dies to save the Planet). Tifa is and always was an after-thought.

Again, not how game design works.

 

[BlankBeat]

Irrelevant to final product, Aerith was also Sephiroths sister and lover.

But the final product included Cloud and Aerith remaining as star-crossed lovers.

Speculation, and not one that follows logically.

According to the self-declared Judge Judy of game development design.

Speculation, and unfounded, doesn't take into account the inherent differences between first and second playthroughs. Nor does it have relevance to who the romantic lead is in the plot. This argument is a dead end.

Why is the Clerith date stated to be the "normally occurring" date, then?

Again, not how game design works.

That's your go-to argument when you have nothing else to say.

 

[Yumelinh]

Yet the Clerith date is the "normally occurring" date because the main narrative favors Clerith due to Aerith's death and the star-crossed romance. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest for Cloud.

It's really interesting how you always put so much weight in the "normally occurring" optional date scene that three other characters can get ( don't forget poot Barret and Yuffie, their dates are fun, too) because it serves the narrative while ignoring a variable in a scene that also serves the narrative and the plot in general. Even more when the HA HW scene has been proved to be the canon one from the two versions, but you know all that already, right?!

Also, the HW scene is where they confirm their feelings, but their feelings are revealed in the lifestream scene, which is a non-optional and non-variable scene


That being said, I agree with you that Aerith date fits better in the narrative and that she's pushed more at the beginning of the game to fuel her subsequent death later on, just like Cloud's Soldier persona is pushed more at the beginning so the revelation that he wasn't one would be more shocking as well. It's just how the story rolls and it fits perfectly with some of the game themes. Nothing is what you were expecting indeed.

Have you thought for a second that the CxA relationship could have been simply a red herring? It doesn't diminish their good time together, but when you look at it objectively, from a narrative standpoint, it served a purpose. It's even more evident when, later on, after we piece back together our main character's mind, we come to learn that he was in love with the other girl all along, but couldn't remember it because of his broken persona.

(sorry! I promised I would be in the shadows but it was write this or work. Feel free to ignore me as always =)) )

 

[Ruri]

Where's my master ball?!

If y'all are gonna say Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, you gotta prove it with a quote or scene post-AC.

Ok.

(Crisis Core Ultimania, pg. 33; Tifa’s profile)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

“She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.”

Source/Credit

You're using DoC to stress a lack of Cloud/Tifa and diminish their relationship but DoC is not a Cloud or Tifa's game so of course there is a lack of that relationship, it just cannot be used as a weapon against them. Barret can haul up and crash at Seventh Heaven when it suits, that doesn't make Cloud or Tifa any less lovers, or the caregivers to Marlene and Denzel.

Tifa is still listed as a mere "childhood friend" in DoC.

Is she not described as 'The strong woman behind Cloud' also? I can't be confident with this one.

Yep. I did.

Tifa is Cloud's childhood "koibito."

'Koibito' is what she is to him after all the story is said and done.

CxT have zero explicit moments of romance & Cloud believes Aerith brought him Denzel.

Tifa: 'She brought him to us both'

Cloud smiles at Tifa.

Doesn't argue back or mull over it. Denzel is Cloud and Tifa's kid to raise. I'm actually not sure what you're implying with this but I did want to finish off that part of OTWTAS for you.

SE wants most gamers to play FFVII the Aerith way. Why? Because from the very beginning stages of development, Aertih was the original love interest and her story is the main narrative (ie: she dies to save the Planet). Tifa is and always was an after-thought.

I think you want SE to want players to play the Aerith way. If SE wanted people to play only the Aerith way, we wouldn't get to have so much fun with dialogue choice options right off the bat. She was supposed to be played and pushed as to mean a lot to you when you lose her. I'm not sure if I've ever read SE confirming these points of yours, just that two heroines and a love triangle would be unique for FF and at that time.

I do ponder on how much you stress Aerith was the ultimate choice and the true love for Cloud @BlankBeat, considering Aerith was the evolved form of the concept of the main heroine for FFVII who was first called Tifa. Both women are two sides of the same coin and both, heroines.

 

[minami758]

Until SE specifies that Cloud and Tifa get married, have their own children together, or Tifa is upgraded to something other than "childhood friend," nothing has been definitely established.

I don't really think this is a fair argument without doing some heavy twisting. If you need a concrete "I love you" or marriage to prove a relationship is romantic, then I think you'll find yourself disappointed in many great works of literature and art, where "proof" like this isn't needed. In fact, I would say that in some cases, needing that kind of "proof" just to hammer home that two people are in love with each other is a byproduct of bad writing.

That said, like Tres mentioned, "koibito" for Tifa and Cloud exists. And I think it's disingenuous to say that it's only for childhood. Cloud's love for Tifa, which was strong enough to catapult him into joining the military, lasted up until his 5-year-long catatonia. And when he came out of it he only couldn't remember his feelings for her for 2 months, max. Then they come to the surface again in the Lifestream, where he learns Tifa reciprocates. Everything else after that is just gravy.

star-crossed romance

I think we fundamentally disagree on some of the themes of FF7... you seem very focused on this "star-crossed lovers" thing, which I don't think is the point of Cloud's relationship with Aerith. I don't deny that Cloud was attracted to Aerith, and very well could've been in the beginning stages of love, but we don't know what would've happened had Aerith lived.

Could Cloud have "preferred" Aerith while she was alive? Sure, if we want to consider it, let's say your point is true. But Cloud during that time also did not remember that he loved Tifa, and was also suffering from many other mental issues. Aerith very much played into his SOLDIER persona and she provided no emotional baggage like Tifa did, so of course Cloud-who-fantasizes-himself-as-SOLDIER would lean into that. However, Cloud as he is during the time he meets Aerith is only a fragment of the whole.

Would real!Cloud, free of identity issues, have "preferred" Aerith too? If you say real!Cloud "thinks about Aerith a lot," I mean, duh. So does everyone else. But the real answer is that we don't know, because they never met each other.

What we do know is that before all of Sephiroth and Hojo's fuckery, real!Cloud loved Tifa. Those feelings didn't just disappear as you seem to wish they did — they were always simmering under the surface. That's one of the big reveals of the Lifestream sequence, as I said above. It's part of the plot twist that is Cloud's identity — and a crucial part of Cloud's identity is wrapped up in his love for Tifa.

I have yet to see anything romantic between Cloud and Tifa post-AC.

I mean, DoC is the only thing that exists post-AC (aside from The Kids are Alright), and it's Vincent's story. Cloud and Tifa, let alone any other character from the original party, are barely in it. The focus isn't on them.

To that end, in The Turks Are Alright, Evan and Kyrie are a couple who take in an orphan (sound familiar?). They call themselves a family, then run into Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene in the epilogue, where Cloud confirms that they're also family.

“This is Kyrie.” Vits introduced her. “She’s Evan’s girlfriend.”

“Ehhhh…” Kyrie denied it cheerfully. Without knowing her intentions, I looked at Kyrie. Then, she turned to Cloud… “We’re already family. We’re not related by blood, but we’re family.”

then:

Cloud, who had stayed silent this whole time, spoke. “We’re not related by blood, but we’re family. Just like you.”

“Well, see you soon.” Marlene said goodbye with childlike impatience, and pulled on Cloud’s hand. Once Cloud gave us that ‘see ya’ look with his eyes, he surrendered to Marlene and turned around.

The parallels to this interaction should be clear, as they're there for a reason. But to be honest, I'm a little confused as to the goalposts here as it seems you're giving an impossible task to which you will accept no answer.

Edit: Ruri actually also provides good, solid quotes to support Cloud and Tifa, post-AC.

Tifa is and always was an after-thought.

You seem to have a very negative view on Tifa (I wonder why that is?) and it seems nothing people say will convince you otherwise. I can't really say bringing in your hatred of a character really supports your cause. There's no need to diminish one to prove the other if your arguments are sound.