Ways the game could be improved

[Alessa Gillespie]

CidxSheraxVincent?

Fans will find a way.enjoy grasping at straws.

Fixed for ya.

 

[Munatik]

Mako pretty much said everything I was going to, but

Ok, you can have your own opinion but you don't have to go to such an effort to try and disprove mine. To me there is a theme of love and if you can't see it then that's fine with me. You could at least try and be more polite when debating something. This is meant to be a topic on ways to improve FF7, why are you interfering with what I think would make the game better anyway?

Opinions aren't necessarily wrong, but if they are supported by faulty evidence (such as the "genuine" letters), then they can and will be called on. We tend to rake members and newbies alike over the coals for it, so I wouldn't take others' debate style personally.

And haven't you noticed? We've been interfering a lot with what other people would like to see from the very first post. Except for cowbell. Nobody objects to cowbell.

And STFU Cid does not need to be more bishie. He's perfectly rugged and manly.

 

[Akemmi]

Mako pretty much said everything I was going to, but



Opinions aren't necessarily wrong, but if they are supported by faulty evidence (such as the "genuine" letters), then they can and will be called on. We tend to rake members and newbies alike over the coals for it, so I wouldn't take others' debate style personally.

And haven't you noticed? We've been interfering a lot with what other people would like to see from the very first post. Except for cowbell. Nobody objects to cowbell.

And STFU Cid does not need to be more bishie. He's perfectly rugged and manly.

First of all I said the letters appear to be genuine, they are worth a look at, I never said they were proof and I wasn't intending to offend anyone It's just my personal opinion and I didn't say that Cid needs to be more bishie that was someone else. Why are all admins and mods so grumpy anyway?

 

[Dark and Divine]

I didn't said that Cid needed to be more bishie.

I said he wasn't bishie enough to be a FF protagonist.

 

[Max Payne]

Don't put your opinion forward if you can't handle it being criticized.

That's the nature of a topic such as this. You say something that a person doesn't agree with they're going to voice their opinion on it. There's nothing to take offense to here.

 

[Akemmi]

Don't put your opinion forward if you can't handle it being criticized.

That's the nature of a topic such as this. You say something that a person doesn't agree with they're going to voice their opinion on it. There's nothing to take offense to here.

Fine but my opinion remains, Final Fantasy games have a recurring theme of love. The fact that they put the golden saucer date in the game at all suggests an implied intent. As I see it Tifa is in love with Cloud, Barret loves his daughter Marlene, Aerith loves the planet, Sephiroth has love for his "mother" and Rufus loves himself. Lol. The reason that all of these characters are motivated is love. They do everything in their power to protect this.

 

[Munatik]

First of all I said the letters appear to be genuine, they are worth a look at, I never said they were proof and I wasn't intending to offend anyone It's just my personal opinion and I didn't say that Cid needs to be more bishie that was someone else. Why are all admins and mods so grumpy anyway?

You haven't offended anyone, I promise you.

Also, you made a claim, and then provided the dubious letters as evidence. That suggests that you do consider them to be valid enough to back up an argument with. However, with language like "presumably" and "possibly" and "sounds genuine," plus all the evidence to the contrary, there is more than enough reason to not even consider them. Ergo, your claim that "The story was originally intended to have Cloud fall in love" is what I would affectionately call an "airclaim".

I know it was someone else who brought up Cid. I just threw that out off the cuff without properly redirecting it, my bad.

 

[Akemmi]

You haven't offended anyone, I promise you.

Also, you made a claim, and then provided the dubious letters as evidence. That suggests that you do consider them to be valid enough to back up an argument with. However, with language like "presumably" and "possibly" and "sounds genuine," plus all the evidence to the contrary, there is more than enough reason to not even consider them. Ergo, your claim that "The story was originally intended to have Cloud fall in love" is what I would affectionately call an "airclaim".

I know it was someone else who brought up Cid. I just threw that out off the cuff without properly redirecting it, my bad.

I provided you with the evidence I had found, it is up to you to interpret it in any way you choose. Personally, I find the evidence to be compelling, though obviously without conclusive proof there is always doubt. I merely brought this doubt to your attention to allow you to form your own opinion.

 

[Max Payne]

Fine but my opinion remains, Final Fantasy games have a recurring theme of love. The fact that they put the golden saucer date in the game at all suggests an implied intent. As I see it Tifa is in love with Cloud, Barret loves his daughter Marlene, Aerith loves the planet, Sephiroth has love for his "mother" and Rufus loves himself. Lol. The reason that all of these characters are motivated is love. They do everything in their power to protect this.

Characters having feelings for other characters doesn't mean there's a "theme of love" and the Gold Saucer date is meant to highlight how fucked up Cloud is and how worried his friends are about him. A theme is meant to play an important role in a plot, serve the purpose of conveying some sort of message or lesson to the viewer. The romantic interests of Cloud do not play that part.

For example, Crisis Core has a theme of love, Zack's relationship with Aeris is a major part of that game's plot.

The "recurring theme" bit is debatable, of course I could see how a person might feel that way after playing the more recent titles.

And the letters aren't evidence of anything, and pretty much amount to BS contradicted by the creators themselves.

 

[Munatik]

And my opinion is that it's not compelling evidence in the slightest until it's veracity is unequivocally proven, and not talked about using uncertain words (presumably, possibly, etc). Even then, it would be difficult for such old news reinflate the Clerith balloon after it's been punctured by Squeenix with somebody named Zack.

 

[wayfarer]

stop picking on the poor n00b.

 

[Munatik]

stop picking on the poor n00b.

NO U.

Mako ate the last noob, remember? Akemmi's getting off easy.

Really though, I'm not trying to twist anyone's titties to be mean. I apologize if you feel like we're bullying you, Akemmi. However, there is no reason why we can't get along despite having a minor disagreement over this.

 

[Akemmi]

NO U.

Mako ate the last noob, remember? Akemmi's getting off easy.

Really though, I'm not trying to twist anyone's titties to be mean. I apologize if you feel like we're bullying you, Akemmi. However, there is no reason why we can't get along despite having a minor disagreement over this.

lol It's fine really, I think it's an honour being able to have a debate with experienced members such as yourself, Dacon and Mako especially when I'm a noob. We are all fellow FF7 fans anyway. It would be great to get along as well, people will always have different opinions, It makes things more interesting.

I think Mako ate my arm so far other than that I'm pretty much intact lol.


Oh and thanks for pitying me Fenrir/Cerberus ^^
xxx

Akemmi

 

[Akemmi]

Characters having feelings for other characters doesn't mean there's a "theme of love" and the Gold Saucer date is meant to highlight how fucked up Cloud is and how worried his friends are about him. A theme is meant to play an important role in a plot, serve the purpose of conveying some sort of message or lesson to the viewer. The romantic interests of Cloud do not play that part.

For example, Crisis Core has a theme of love, Zack's relationship with Aeris is a major part of that game's plot.

The "recurring theme" bit is debatable, of course I could see how a person might feel that way after playing the more recent titles.

And the letters aren't evidence of anything, and pretty much amount to BS contradicted by the creators themselves.

How can you not see that love plays an important role in FF7?

Why are the group even fighting for the planet in the first place? Because they love their homes and friends and want to protect them.

Why is Sephiroth wanting to Destroy the planet? Because he loves his "mother" and is doing it all for her.

If Aerith did not love the planet, her friends and family she would not have prayed to holy and saved the planet. How is that not an important role in the plot?

Nanaki decides to join the party for good after discovering the truth about his fathers sacrifice and joins the party for his new-found love and respect for his father.

There are so many more examples of love that affect the game, I can give many more. Crisis core has one romantic relationship. This game has at least 4. I think the lesson of FF7 concerning the theme of love is to find something you love and do anything to protect it. That is the message I got across from the game anyway.

Can we please drop the letter thing already? Take pity on the poor noob. lol


Just to let you know It's been an honour debating with you for me.

xxx

Akemmi

 

[wayfarer]

Oh and thanks for pitying me Fenrir/Cerberus ^^

All in a day's work. *strikes a pose*

EDIT *For your second post*:

You can basically use that logic for anything

 

[Akemmi]

All in a day's work. *strikes a pose*

EDIT *For your second post*:

You can basically use that logic for anything

*laughs* Fenrir/Cerberus the defender of n00bs.

Yes, that's true. I still think it is a major theme though. Also not everyone is motivated by love in the game. When I look back at that post it looks like such a cheesy love speech hahahah

xxx
Akemmi

 

[Max Payne]

How can you not see that love plays an important role in FF7?

Why are the group even fighting for the planet in the first place? Because they love their homes and friends and want to protect them.

That's a part of who the characters are, not a theme. It's motivation, not a huge part of the story.

Why is Sephiroth wanting to Destroy the planet? Because he loves his "mother" and is doing it all for her.

No, hell no. Sephiroth is doing all of that for himself. He wanted to become a surpreme being with all of the power of the planet. Jenova be damned.

[There are so many more examples of love that affect the game, I can give many more. Crisis core has one romantic relationship. This game has at least 4. I think the lesson of FF7 concerning the theme of love is to find something you love and do anything to protect it. That is the message I got across from the game anyway.

There's no theme of love. There are people who love other people in the game, but it's not a huge plot point therefore it's not a theme. A lot of the characters are very selfish, despise others, and do everything for themselves. There's no theme of hate is there? Because that's a pivotal part of who many of the characters are.

The big theme of FF7 is life, and how sacred it is, and how quickly and harshly it can be taken away from us, and the pain it leaves behind. Which is why people should be trying to save the environment, and do everything to help each other that they can.

 

[Akemmi]

That's a part of who the characters are, not a theme. It's motivation, not a huge part of the story.
No, hell no. Sephiroth is doing all of that for himself. He wanted to become a surpreme being with all of the power of the planet. Jenova be damned.


There's no theme of love. There are people who love other people in the game, but it's not a huge plot point therefore it's not a theme. A lot of the characters are very selfish, despise others, and do everything for themselves. There's no theme of greed or hate is there? Because that's a pivotal part of who a lot of the characters are.

The big theme of FF7 is life, and how sacred it is, and how quickly and harshly it can be taken away from us, and the pain it leaves behind. Which is why people should be trying to save the environment, and do everything to help each other that they can.

I respect your opinions but Sephiroth in my opinion is doing everything he is because he is motivated by Jenova. In Advent Children he says he wants to ruse the planet as a vessel and sail the cosmos as his mother did long ago, doesn't that imply one of the reasons he is doing it is admiration and love for his mother? This crisis core cut scene to me shows Sephiroth's love for Jenova. Just look at his face at 1.04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZiz86LdeiE

I know life is the main theme of FF7 but there is never only one theme to anything. I just believe it is a present theme in FF7, maybe not a major one but it is definitely present and it has meant something to me.

xxx

Akemmi

 

[Max Payne]

Jenova helped push him over the edge, but FF7, the Ultimanias, and the creators have made it clear that he did everything for himself.

HE wanted to be a god, not Jenova. Jenova was nothing more than a pawn in his plan. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, this is a fact. Sephiroth did what he did for himself, and no one else.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Jenova helped push him over the edge, but FF7, the Ultimanias, and the creators have made it clear that he did everything for himself.

HE wanted to be a god, not Jenova. Jenova was nothing more than a pawn in his plan. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, this is a fact. Sephiroth did what he did for himself, and no one else.

It seems to me that the story was changed (so to speak) when SE started making spin offs. After playing FF7 and listening to Sephiroth on AC, I could swear it was Jenova making the decisions, or at least they were both in on it, instead of being only Sephiroth.

Or maybe they just added that which could not be made clear through the games or the movie(s).

 

[Max Payne]

FF7 made it obvious that Sephiroth was the one in control. When Jenova died Sephiroth didn't give a shit, her fall had no effect on him at all. She was just his tool for achieving his ultimate goal.

It's right there in the game. You don't ever see Jenova speaking for Sephiroth, or making plans, or anything.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I don't think the fact that he kept fighting means he didn't give a shit. And, anyway, Jenova was still alive, otherwise

Spoiler

her head wouldn't have been a problem in AC/C

.

 

[Max Payne]

Jenova was dead. That was a piece of her that was left. There's no sentience or consciousness left in it. It's meat.

The reason it was a problem was because it was still a healthy source of jenova cells.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

Jenova was dead. That was a piece of her that was left. There's no sentience or consciousness left in it. It's meat.

The reason it was a problem was because it was still a healthy source of jenova cells.

Healthy? After two years she should be decomposed.

That reminds me, why does Kadaj scream after he looked inside Jenova's container in Aerith's church?

I thought it could be because he realises that she's not gonna choose him over Sephiroth, but that seems a tad farfetched.

 

[Max Payne]

Healthy? After two years she should be decomposed.

That reminds me, why does Kadaj scream after he looked inside Jenova's container in Aerith's church?

I thought it could be because he realises that she's not gonna choose him over Sephiroth, but that seems a tad farfetched.

It's an alien that has managed to survive for hundreds of years. I doubt it adheres to the same rules of decomposition.

And Kadaj screamed because what was left of Jenova had been mauled even further thanks to Rufus. What was inside that canister was hardly the mother he was longing for.