SPOILERS What does Sephiroth actually want from Cloud? (*Open Spoilers*)

[Cat on Mars]

That's it. That's the post.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah, you're right. It probably would have. Unfortunately CC's depiction of the slums were lacking in capturing the uniqueness of the original. It captured other elements effectively but sadly that wasn't one of them.

I loved how Nibelheim looked, at least.

I think it’s also important to remember that the PSP originally came out in 2004. Crisis Core was really pushing the hardware/software of the PSP to its limits in terms of production/fidelity.

 

[Glaurung]

Is there anyone who actually likes the character of Genesis unironically?

I do. I also liked Angeal. I loved the concept of two warring scientists competing to see whose lab kid gets the better results and that Sephiroth had someone who could keep up with him at training (I always thought that, bereft of any companion, and being the strongest man on Gaia, he might very well suffer the Saitama syndrome. I'd watch the hell out of that, though ).

What I disliked and I still do, was that both Genesis and Angeal had as much depth of character as a cardboard cutout, barely ever stepping outside from their endless quoting of Loveless in the first case, and the "protect your honor" mantra in the second.

One of the things that many people (me included) liked about the remake was the writing. Take Barret for example. We already knew he was a tough guy with a soft spot for his adopted daughter. Now we see that and much more, like his fear of heights, or how dorky he can be at times. Take Coud, who now sounds scared shitless whenever he sees Sephiroth. And let's not start with Avalanche.

Had they added some contradictory traits to Genesis and Angeal, things would have been different. Had they made Genesis speak anything that wasn't Loveless time and time again instead of what really was on his mind, people wouldn't feel like throwing away their controllers in rage as the mere mention of Type G SOLDIERs. Writing is everything in a Final Fantasy, and it really doesn't take much more than a few lines to define someone's character or motivations, as we both know.

tl;dr: Yeah, I happen to like him, not so much for what they gave us, but for the possibilities he had as a character..

Speaking of puppetry, we haven’t seen Cloud do any real puppet-y stuff yet, have we? I can’t remember if they show Cloud doing things beyond his will in the OG before they leave Midgar. (Headaches hinting at it aside)

He does. When they are standing in that catwalk towards the tank containing Jenova and they see Sephiroth, Cloud starts slowly shuffling towards him, as if his feet were being controlled. That lasts until he shakes it away and lunges towards Spehiroth. Can't remember any other example, though.

 

[Dark and Divine]

He does. When they are standing in that catwalk towards the tank containing Jenova and they see Sephiroth, Cloud starts slowly shuffling towards him, as if his feet were being controlled. That lasts until he shakes it away and lunges towards Spehiroth. Can't remember any other example, though.

Another example I can think of is when Cloud crumbles toward the elevator in Hojo's lab while listening to Sephiroth's words in his head and him saying "Mother" before collapsing.

 

[youffie]

What @Mama Dragon said. Honestly, Crisis Core had some intriguing concepts but also some of the laziest writing in the Compilation, and it affects almost all of the characters to varying degrees. Sometimes it felt like a lot of the dialogue never left the conceptual stage, as if instead of making the characters talk like people they decided that making them repeat the key themes of the game over and over again was sssooooo much better and deeper. “Honor! Dreams! Literal Monsters and Wings! Freedom! WINGS OF FREEDOM”

Ugh. I’m fine with elements from the Compilation crossing over, I just hope the bad writing doesn’t.

 

[Roger]

What @Mama Dragon said. Honestly, Crisis Core had some intriguing concepts but also some of the laziest writing in the Compilation, and it affects almost all of the characters to varying degrees. Sometimes it felt like a lot of the dialogue never left the conceptual stage, as if instead of making the characters talk like people they decided that making them repeat the key themes of the game over and over again was sssooooo much better and deeper. “Honor! Dreams! Literal Monsters and Wings! Freedom! WINGS OF FREEDOM”

Ugh. I’m fine with elements from the Compilation crossing over, I just hope the bad writing doesn’t.

Having the way they talked in earlier games updated is easy enough, just hope they don't ever acknowledge the two prequels protagonists also being introduced to Aerith by means of falling into her church from Mako Reactor 5.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Two?

 

[Tetsujin]

Two?

Zack and a BC Turk.

 

[oty]

I think it’s also important to remember that the PSP originally came out in 2004. Crisis Core was really pushing the hardware/software of the PSP to its limits in terms of production/fidelity.

I dont think this justifies enough. There is a great quote that goes "you can pull off great visuals anywhere if the art direction is strong enough" and I think that's what CC's problem is. They tried to push too far into the 3D rendering capabilities of the PSP, and because of that, what they got rendered looked like bland, albeit three dimensional poligons. OoT3D is a good example of a fully 3D rendered game, in an also not powerful hardware (the 3DS), and it looks much better than CC. If the hardware cant do a good job at what the development team is attempting, they need to find another method of showcasing their artistic vision.

What @Mama Dragon said. Honestly, Crisis Core had some intriguing concepts but also some of the laziest writing in the Compilation, and it affects almost all of the characters to varying degrees. Sometimes it felt like a lot of the dialogue never left the conceptual stage, as if instead of making the characters talk like people they decided that making them repeat the key themes of the game over and over again was sssooooo much better and deeper. “Honor! Dreams! Literal Monsters and Wings! Freedom! WINGS OF FREEDOM”

Ugh. I’m fine with elements from the Compilation crossing over, I just hope the bad writing doesn’t.

This is my major sentiment as well. The writing is so terribly done it's hard to believe Nojima actualy wrote the Remake as well. The difference is as clear as day and night, and I could not be more glad.

 

[looneymoon]

Ugh. I’m fine with elements from the Compilation crossing over, I just hope the bad writing doesn’t.

Maybe it's our destiny to defy destiny

 

[Wol]

Maybe it's our destiny to defy destiny

"This is destiny's destiny... The final frontier."

 

[youffie]

I didn't want to mention it because the ending is a sensitive topic, but. Yeah

 

[Shademp]

"Maybe it's our destiny to defy destiny" is actually one of few lines in the final chapter that I really enjoyed. It shows a level of philosophical reflection that I'd expect from Red XIII (for lack of a Vincent Valentine around to say something like this instead).

It's interesting that one of the taglines of FFVII is "There's no offa this train we on". On one hand, defying the Whispers is an antithesis of that tagline. The train can't go anywhere except where the rails take it...unless you derail it. Yet it's also true that the game won't allow you any other option but to defeat the Whispers (unless you just quit the game early), so it is indeed your destiny to defy destiny. There's no offa this train we on, whether it be on the rails or not.


Btw I found this amazing dissertation on what Sephiroth wants from Cloud, with some focus on what Sephiroth is actually offering Cloud.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Btw I found this amazing dissertation on what Sephiroth wants from Cloud, with some focus on what Sephiroth is actually offering Cloud.

About that, I think that...

Spoiler

...I've just been rickrolled

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I like Genesis as a character... but it took me watching the JP version of CC (ENG Genesis sounds... very jarring compared to JP Genesis), a lot of research into all the background details we see in the final Banora Caves dungeon, a lot of mentally mapping out "how did a person who was like this as a kid turn into this kind of person as an adult", and comparing a lot of JP anime/manga-only archetypes/themes to Western archetypes/themes for me to like him.

Aside from CC's sloppy execution, which... effects a lot of things other then Genesis in CC, what I think Genesis suffers from the most is that CC has... a lot of themes and character archetypes that don't really have a Western counterpart. This is most obvious with the whole "company loyalty" that Zack and Sephiroth see Genesis as betraying. It's... really hard to sell that idea to a Western Audience once they figure out that it's Shin-Ra that experimented on Genesis (and everyone else) in the first place. And it always bothered me that "Shin-ra is the source of Genesis degradation" never became a major plot point. Instead it's Zack wondering why Genesis would betray his two friends who are still with the company and Sephiroth having to deal with why his best friend left him. Genesis himself never flat out says why he left either mind you, although that is slightly more understandable as it is canon that degradation means your mind starts breaking down just like the rest of your body does. He also might have thought it would be obvious to Sephiroth as Sephrioth grew up with Hojo and... all the main characters would have gone though the process of becoming SOLDIER. They all know Shin-Ra messes around with doing weird medical procedures on people long before the game starts.

The other archetype is Genesis himself. Western media doesn't have a lot of... really powerful fighters that are interested in things like... old literature and are still portrayed as being really awesome fighters. Traits like "expert on old english lit" are usually seen as things that make people weaker and don't contribute to them being good fighters. So they're things to hide rather then show off to war buddies and see them laughing with the person about it. Where you do see that kind of character archetype is in... historical JP anime/manga. There's a number of samurai -type characters where "really good at all that poetry stuff" is part of their character archtype and no one gives them any grief over it. There's also a lot of samurai characters where being obsesed about their honor is really important to them to. And Genesis (and Angeal) would feel right at home in those types of anime/manga. They're pretty much varriations on samurai archetypes that genre-hopped.

The other thing is... a western movie has pretty much Genesis' character arc in it... but from a western mindset. The Borne Legacy is basically Genesis' character arc. You've got a super-soldier who got experimented on by the organization he works for and is now suffering bad side-effects from that experimentation. He leaves the organization and goes to find the scientist who came up with the experiments done on him. The scientist eventually says they can fix what was done to him and leaves with the super-solider. Meanwhile, the organization the super-soldier left start sending super-solders to track him down and they chase the defecting super-solider and the scientist with him. This is when the story splits based on how it "judges" if the defector was right to leave the company or not. In CC, Hollander actually can't fix what is wrong with Genesis. In the Borne Legacy, the scientist can fix what is wrong with the super-soldier. Even with that change though, once Genesis does get fixed by the Planet, both CC and the Borne Legacy end in more or less the same place. The super-soldier goes into hiding from the organization they once worked for... and gets away with it. The one major difference between CC and The Born Legacy is the attitude they take towards how "right" the super-soldier was in trying to leave the organization who experimented on him. In CC, it's almost always treated as being what the character shouldn't have done and the whole game focuses on how Genesis leaving caused tons of problems for everyone else in the organization. In The Borne Legacy, it's treated as being very understandable even though a lot of people in the organization end up dying as a result.

If I had to say what Genesis reminds me of in Western tropes and not JP tropes... he'd be that really passionate literature/mythology professor who is obsessed with finding that one missing part of a work/play/myth cycle... who just so happens to be one of the top-ranked fighters at the local martial-arts club... and the other two guys at his level are all crazy strong ex-military guys. Like... Genesis makes me think of what Indiana Jones would be like if he went into the military instead of archeology.

There's a definite feeling in Genesis's character that he really shouldn't be in SOLDIER, but should be like... researching old Ancient texts off in some university somewhere (Genesis would fit it at Cosmo Canyon amazingly well). Only as far as I can tell, there is no universities in FF7, at least not for stuff like historical research. Instead, there's Sephiroth, the poster-boy for Shin-Ra, advertising about SOLDIER. And Genesis really wants to get out of Banora...

 

[Cat on Mars]

@Obsidian Fire , didn't you post this essay somewhere else? I'd swear I've read it before.
And just to counter-point, Western media may not use the "cultured warrior" much, but it has been a cultural constant.

 

[oty]

"Maybe it's our destiny to defy destiny" is actually one of few lines in the final chapter that I really enjoyed. It shows a level of philosophical reflection that I'd expect from Red XIII (for lack of a Vincent Valentine around to say something like this instead).

It's interesting that one of the taglines of FFVII is "There's no offa this train we on". On one hand, defying the Whispers is an antithesis of that tagline. The train can't go anywhere except where the rails take it...unless you derail it. Yet it's also true that the game won't allow you any other option but to defeat the Whispers (unless you just quit the game early), so it is indeed your destiny to defy destiny. There's no offa this train we on, whether it be on the rails or not.


Btw I found this amazing dissertation on what Sephiroth wants from Cloud, with some focus on what Sephiroth is actually offering Cloud.

Yeah, I believe Red XIII saying that actually made it interesting. He really is the character who would spout such a reflection, so it works. That's the kind of "content" that "defying Destiny" can really get it's hands dirty. More of that wouldnt be so bad.

 

[KetaKitty]

To the original topic I've noticed that Illusion Sephiroth throughout the game is trying to make Cloud feel human.
In OG he said, "Stop acting as if you are sad. No need to act as though you are angry either, because Cloud, you are a puppet." Aerith's death and Jenova Life fight scene. He also said, "You never had a name" When telling him he was a figment of Tifa's memories.
In REMAKE he is telling him "Your mom begged me to spare you." So right there Sephiroth confirmed Pinocchio was in fact a real boy and not a puppet. "Hold onto that hatred." is a big jump from "no need to feel angry because you are a puppet."

To me it seems like Sephiroth want's Cloud to be able to withstand OG Sephiroths control, not strengthen it.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Cat on Mars I've posted varriations of those points elsewhere on the forum... but it's been a few years since Genesis' character was a major topic. If you're on the Discord, I've made some of the same points there.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Obsidian Fire does probably the best analysis I've ever seen of Genesis (and consequently Angeal) outside my own head. There is more that could be said in terms of these archetypes they embody and simultaneously subvert -- e.g. Genesis being the warrior who overtly measures his internal worth by external validation while paradoxically choosing to spend his life in the shadows; Angeal being the one who subsists on devotion to a more private ethos, but ultimately allows outside factors to determine how he defines himself; with Zack's personal development then tracing a course across these paradigms to take the best lessons from either man's life.

That's what they were going for, and it makes for a great premise. Suffice it to say, however, as many have noted, there was potential in that story it just didn't live up to. I'd also add to that assessment that I don't feel it conveyed its ideas all that clearly either.

And perhaps, in all honesty, I just wasn't as interested in those ideas it wanted to convey as those I think it should have wanted to convey. Genesis would have made for an effective exploration of the underlying self-indulgence -- and narcissistic inferiority complex -- inherent in the ostensibly slavish devotion of zealotry (of whatever persuasion). Angeal was ripe grounds for a look at self-affirmation in the face of factors beyond one's control. Genesis's tale never really saw him getting called out for what he is, though, and Angeal's self-eulogy was ultimately one of shameful surrender. I would argue that Sephiroth and Zack do still fall somewhere in between all of that, though, with one choosing selfishness and malice while the other chooses charity and compassion.

As much shit as I give "Crisis Core," it legitimately has some good stuff going for it. Most of it was just left half-baked, though.

To the original topic I've noticed that Illusion Sephiroth throughout the game is trying to make Cloud feel human.
In OG he said, "Stop acting as if you are sad. No need to act as though you are angry either, because Cloud, you are a puppet." Aerith's death and Jenova Life fight scene. He also said, "You never had a name" When telling him he was a figment of Tifa's memories.
In REMAKE he is telling him "Your mom begged me to spare you." So right there Sephiroth confirmed Pinocchio was in fact a real boy and not a puppet. "Hold onto that hatred." is a big jump from "no need to feel angry because you are a puppet."

To me it seems like Sephiroth want's Cloud to be able to withstand OG Sephiroths control, not strengthen it.

That is a keen observation!

 

[looneymoon]

re: Genesis and Crisis Core script doctoring (maybe a new thread?).

It's been a long while since I've played Crisis Core, so a lot of specifics might be lost on me. The talk here has got me thinking about it though.

I think Crisis Core is fine if you look at it in broad strokes (as Tres said above). The main way it fails is in the more nuanced, character writing which is where it gets over-reliant on tropey shorthands.

One of its problems is that it tries to do a lot in a limited amount of space. Even though it is already a smaller than the FF7 epic, it could do with tightening some stuff a bit more. Genesis would come across as more multi-faceted if given the role and traits of Angeal as well, and eliminate Angeal from the story. Framing the "failure" Sephiroth as the mentor to Zack, and original owner of the buster sword - it would create a foil between Genesis/Sephiroth and Cloud/Zack in a more elegant way, imo.

As much as I like Cissnei, I think it might have been a stronger choice to give a lot of the more important stuff she does to Tseng. Or vice versa. Then again, I do not properly recall this part of the plot as well. There could have at least been a stronger conflict between Zack-The Turks-Aerith, as that is something that is weirdly missing from the plot, and would give the opportunity to write Aerith with a stronger presence.

 

[Cat on Mars]

As much shit as I give "Crisis Core," it legitimately has some good stuff going for it. Most of it was just left half-baked, though.

That's what stings. If everything was terrible we wouldn't be talking about it. So much wasted potential.

 

[Odysseus]

That's what stings. If everything was terrible we wouldn't be talking about it. So much wasted potential.

This, exactly this. Unlike the rest of the compilation, Crisis Core had so much potential. There is a world out there where I actually like Mr. Megadrive because he was actually given the room to develop and not be such a one note anime trope character. I really, truly want to love the game the way some people do, but I just can't .

Also, @Shademp, I can't believe I fell for that. I learned to recognize the capital Q at the end of the URL!

To the original topic I've noticed that Illusion Sephiroth throughout the game is trying to make Cloud feel human.
In OG he said, "Stop acting as if you are sad. No need to act as though you are angry either, because Cloud, you are a puppet." Aerith's death and Jenova Life fight scene. He also said, "You never had a name" When telling him he was a figment of Tifa's memories.
In REMAKE he is telling him "Your mom begged me to spare you." So right there Sephiroth confirmed Pinocchio was in fact a real boy and not a puppet. "Hold onto that hatred." is a big jump from "no need to feel angry because you are a puppet."

To me it seems like Sephiroth want's Cloud to be able to withstand OG Sephiroths control, not strengthen it.

I'm both excited and horrified at the prospect that there might not only be two Sephiroths, but that the two Sephiroths might actively be working against each other. I'm starting to wonder if the only time we see "original" Sephiroth is in the Shinra building and every other time its ? Sephiroth.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well we know that's not the case since it specifically defines the unknown Sephiroth as only appearing at the end. So the other Sephiroths presumably encountered are either flashbacks from Cloud's recollection, or resulting from the proper Sephiroth who exists with FFVII's story.

Sooooo, the Sephiroth we saw from Chapters 2 to 17 are who we thought.

Destiny's Crossroads is where we met this New Challenger.

 

[Odysseus]

Why would original Sephiroth be acting so counter to his "dehumanize Cloud" agenda from the original game, then?