What if? Zack / Cloud role reversal.

[The Twilight Mexican]

Great discussion, guys. I love this kind of shit.

"The Age of Apocalypse" has always been my favorite X-Men storyline. I'd be interested in seeing how some alternate scenarios would turn out in FFVII based on a single variable.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Dude, I wish you'd said that last night Tres, the thread Noctis started for just such discussions could totally have been named "Age of Apocalypse" and been even more epic.

 

[Roger]

Looking at these posts I'm surprised nobody bothered to point this out.
If Tifa stumbled upon Zack in the streets, claiming that he was the one in Nibelheim 5 years ago instead of Cloud, she would never entertain his delusion like she did Clouds. She would shot down his claiming to be the love of her life down right there and then.
And after that obviously the events fall apart.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Looking at these posts I'm surprised nobody bothered to point this out.
If Tifa stumbled upon Zack in the streets, claiming that he was the one in Nibelheim 5 years ago instead of Cloud, she would never entertain his delusion like she did Clouds. She would shot down his claiming to be the love of her life down right there and then.
And after that obviously the events fall apart.

Except that Zack WAS the one from Nibelheim 5 years ago, and she knows that. There's no delusion, because that's the way it DID happen. I doubt Zack would have been claiming that Tifa was the love of her life (especially because I don't remember Cloud doing that), especially when his motivation to get back to Midgar is strongly centered around him reuniting with Aerith. In addition to that, Cloud's delusion is fueled bu Jenova overpowering him because of his Mako poisoning/addiction, whereas Zack was completely unaffected by it, as he'd actually been in SOLDIER. There are still enough common points to assume that Zack may have been willing to tag along with AVALANCHE if he did end up running into Tifa on the streets, though.


X

 

[Roger]

Except that Zack WAS the one from Nibelheim 5 years ago, and she knows that. There's no delusion, because that's the way it DID happen. I doubt Zack would have been claiming that Tifa was the love of her life (especially because I don't remember Cloud doing that), especially when his motivation to get back to Midgar is strongly centered around him reuniting with Aerith. In addition to that, Cloud's delusion is fueled bu Jenova overpowering him because of his Mako poisoning/addiction, whereas Zack was completely unaffected by it, as he'd actually been in SOLDIER. There are still enough common points to assume that Zack may have been willing to tag along with AVALANCHE if he did end up running into Tifa on the streets, though.


X

This if their roles were REVERSED. In the event that Cloud was the SOLDIER at Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack was the insecure infantryman that claims he was the one in Nibelheim instead of him.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

This if their roles were REVERSED. In the event that Cloud was the SOLDIER at Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack was the insecure infantryman that claims he was the one in Nibelheim instead of him.

Ah, ok. You were actually interpriting this differently, because it doesn't appear that you'd read the scenarios brought up in the first post.

The first scenario's idea wasn't just that Zack and Cloud were opposites, and that Zack would be left dying. It was that there was no Zack, and that Cloud was the SOLDIER he believed himself to be in his manipulated memories, and wondering if he would have made it back to Midgar through all the events. The other mostly just followed Zack's survival.

The idea of Zack being the infantryman runs into issues, because he wouldn't have had the same rage reaction that Cloud did during the Nibelheim events, (because it wasn't his hometown being destroyed), but Cloud may have killed him at that point (debatable), the idea of Tifa even noticing Zack is slim at best, but it's also highly likely that Zack's persona would have been generated completely differently based on his own past, (plus, all of Crisis Core would have been totally different, not to mention that Cloud and Zack joined / attempted to join SOLDIER at different times).


X

 

[Roger]

Guess I got caught up reading all the replies and forget the specifics.

Well in Scenerio 1, starting from the beginning of Crisis Core the crucial difference that he's younger and not as outspoken as Zack may actually serve him in the long run. Sephiroth at the end of chapter 1 expressed his beliefs that Angeal had betrayed them as well, Zack was immeadiatly went against it "No way, I know what kind of guy Angeal is and he'd never do that. Angeal wouldn't betray us. NEVER!" Sephiroth sees this and Zack ends up being the one he decides to put faith in. Cloud, I can't see exploding on Sephiroth like that.

As a result Sephiroth'll probably end up deciding to go to Banora himself then shoving it all off on the 14 year old. Genesis and Angeal wouldn't be able to just walk out on Sephiroth like they did with Zack at the lab. They'd probably come to blows before Angeal sees that his mother as killed himself, which is bad news for Genesis. Let's say he manages to fly off, even then Angeal would be stuck with Sephiroth. So one of two things would happen, either Angeal is convinced to come back to SOLDIER or Sephiroth allows him to do his own thing only for Angeal to be caught up with by Genesis and purseuded to rejoin his cause.

In the first scenerio Lazard would call off Genesis army's attack as he has three First Classes standing in his office that day now.

In the second scenerio Sephiroth probably will want a partner to handle Genesis and Hollander, things'll go on pretty much unchanged save that Cloud and Aerith wouldn't hit off quite as well and Cloud may not be ready for Bahamut FURY or Genesis at Modeoheim, much less Angeal. GAME OVER.

In Scenerio 2, President Shinra would be captured and either killed or held hostage at their second makoreactor heist, Zack is that capable at this point, no question. I don't see anyone beside Pres. Shinra deciding to drop the Sector 5 plate. Tseng wouldn't be stupid enough to try to steal Aerith under Zack's eye. And they never really find out about Sephiroth. Not unless the Turks decide to tip him off, but either way Sephiroth hasn't the control over Zack that he did over Cloud so I don't see him waiting.

But when the Meteor appears in the sky, and the WEAPONS show up Aerith and Zack will probably jump into action. Holy should come through unopposed this time while Zack and the now low level Avalance crew may not have the mean to destroy the fully assembled Jenova and Sephiroth at the crater.

Either way sucks to be Red XIII, no matter what happens he's screwed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If their roles were reversed, long story short, Sephiroth would've won. Full stop.

The circumstances that allowed the human race to win in the first place would be instantly reversed and stacked more in Sephiroth's favor.

 

[Tennyo]

How do you figure that, Mako? Wouldn't Zack have had just as much of a chance to beat him as Cloud did? Or are you thinking neither Cloud or Zack would have survived Nibelheim?

@ ShikamaruNara: Nice post. And lol poor Nanaki!

 

[Makoeyes987]

No. No, Zack would not have an equal chance at beating Sephiroth.

Aside from the unique circumstances that each of their encounters brought, Zack was completely raped by Sephiroth and nearly killed. Zack at his peak was unable to put a dent in Sephiroth.

Cloud held unimaginable potential and once able to get past his own mental hang ups, is able to fight Sephiroth and actually kill him. Zack would've been massacred if he tried to fight Sephiroth again.

Sephiroth sees Zack as a fellow SOLDIER and goes out of his way to destroy him utterly. That coupled with Zack just being unable to beat him, makes him unable to win. Cloud has the power to kill Sephiroth, and Sephiroth's disrespect of Cloud allows Cloud to turn around the fight and win.

 

[Roger]

How do you figure that, Mako? Wouldn't Zack have had just as much of a chance to beat him as Cloud did? Or are you thinking neither Cloud or Zack would have survived Nibelheim?

I don't see how Zack could ever find his way on the same path in FFVII as Cloud, even if he doesn't kill Pres. Shinra, he's not gonna fail to stop Reno from dropping the plate, even if he does fail there's nothing stopping him from jumping over to the helicopter and saving Aerith before Tseng can do anything, even if he does let Aerith get captured, he's not going to surrender himself to Shinra just because he's in an elevator with Tseng and Rude, even if he does surrender himself, Jenova has no reason to open the oors for anyone but Cloud and even if she does the only reason Cloud and co ever went after Sehiroth is because Sephiroth was summoning the Sephiroth Clones, which includes the success, Cloud but not the utter failure of the project, Zack.

 

[Tennyo]

@Mako: That is true, the one good thing Cloud had going for him was the fact that Sephiroth did not take him seriously at all, and thus was unprepared. Zack he might have.

Or, do you think that, had Zack and Sephiroth come to face each other again, Sephiroth might think, "Haha well I beat him once and not even members of SOLDIER are enough to stop me," and once again fall prey to his own ego?

@Shin: If Zack did get to the Shinra buiding, though, and saw Sephrioth's sword and thought him alive, don't you think he'd want to go after him as well? To get answers and find out what happened to his friend?

 

[Roger]

Like i said, just to get Zack to the top of the Shinra building at the right time woul require massive amounts of things to happen despite Zack's superior abilities and even then what's he gonna do? He doesn't know where Sephiroth is headed, Sephiroth would not try to use him to get the Black Materia, Zack has no method of discovering where exactly he is in the Northern Crater even if by some magic he gets that far.
The one thing Cloud did right as a main character is that obsolutely nothing could get without him and him alone.
And other then that I agree with Mako, at the end when Aerith needed to destroy Sephiroth's will in the Lifestream she brought in Cloud, not Zack, not Angeal, Cloud.
And Sephiroth didn't underestimate Cloud because he's weak, he does so because he beat him. After getting stabbed in chest by the guy he comes out with the line "just like you" even though he barely knows the guy. Zack just some guy, he doesn't care enough to toy with him.

 

[Tennyo]

Well, 1st Class SOLDIER though he may be, Zack is not without his own flaws/failures. I mean, twice within the plot of CC you have to chase down Hollander, a slightly overweight scientist with no super powers at all (during those times anyway) and somehow Zack can't catch him? :/ haha

I mean, if Cloud is the one who has all this hidden potential and in the end turns out to be the stronger of the two, is it really that much to think that a lot of the things Cloud failed to stop in FFVII Zack would fail to stop as well? Such as the Turks blowing the pillar to bring down Sector 7? Remember, he seems to view the Turks as a threat in CC, which is why he begs Cissnei to let him and Cloud go. I don't think it is a guarantee that he would be able to stop the whole thing.

But I agree, it would take a lot more for Zack to track down Sephiroth. Perhaps something such as running in to a Sephiroth Copy could come into play, or all those people who claim to have seen "a man with a black cloak" heading north.

The only things that I think we can know for certain would be different is that I don't think Zack would join up with Avalanche. Maybe he'd eventually run into them but I don't think he'd be down with blowing reactors. That and Tifa probably wouldn't try to recruit him like she did with Cloud.

Also, most importantly, I don't think Aerith would have been killed, either. Zack wouldn't go crazy at the Temple of the Ancients, thus Aerith wouldn't have fun off on her own like that. I think she would stick with Zack and they would go to the Forgotten City together.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Interestingly enough I outlined some ideas for this in another alternate history thread somewhere, and started writing up a long thing on how it all happened, and where the events moved. I'm somewhat motivated to go find it, and start writing it again.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Considering Zack's track record with bullets and grunts, I don't see Zack fairing too well if he were caught inside the Shinra Building trying to rescue Aerith

Sephiroth held a respect for Zack as a fellow SOLDIER,which is why he attacked Zack so mercilessly and treated him as a threat who needed to be killed. I think that if they crossed paths again, Zack would do the same thing again, regardless.

I don't think Zack would've faired much better at protecting Aerith either. She'd have just died a different way. I can just imagine Zack fighting to protect Aerith and Sephiroth kicking his ass, and while he lies beaten, bloodied, and broken, Sephiroth kills Aerith right there in front of him, and then just flies off.

As Shikamaru also stated, Zack would've had a serious hard time picking up the trail of Sephiroth seeing as how he wasn't a true Sephiroth Copy, he wouldn't have the help of AVALANCHE, and he would not have much of a group to help him. It'd be hard.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Considering Zack's track record with bullets and grunts, I don't see Zack fairing too well if he were caught inside the Shinra Building trying to rescue Aerith

Sephiroth held a respect for Zack as a fellow SOLDIER,which is why he attacked Zack so mercilessly and treated him as a threat who needed to be killed. I think that if they crossed paths again, Zack would do the same thing again, regardless.

I don't think Zack would've faired much better at protecting Aerith either. She'd have just died a different way. I can just imagine Zack fighting to protect Aerith and Sephiroth kicking his ass, and while he lies beaten, bloodied, and broken, Sephiroth kills Aerith right there in front of him, and then just flies off.

As Shikamaru also stated, Zack would've had a serious hard time picking up the trail of Sephiroth seeing as how he wasn't a true Sephiroth Copy, he wouldn't have the help of AVALANCHE, and he would not have much of a group to help him. It'd be hard.

Aside from the opening sequence where he blocks them with his sword.

I would have to agree on this second point.

Cloud was actually capable of being manipulated by Sephiroth to some degree, so I have some level of doubt that this would have gone down quite the same way, expecially because Zack was openly affectionate with her, and would likely have been closer by, whereas Cloud was still rather distant to everyone.

I think that following the Jenova-in-Sephiroth's-form leaving ShinRa HQ would have provided a lot of the tracking assistance that was needed, much how Cloud & Co thought they were actually following Sephiroth.


X

 

[Makoeyes987]

Aside from the opening sequence where he blocks them with his sword.

Bear in mind, that was a holographic simulation.

Cloud was actually capable of being manipulated by Sephiroth to some degree, so I have some level of doubt that this would have gone down quite the same way, expecially because Zack was openly affectionate with her, and would likely have been closer by, whereas Cloud was still rather distant to everyone.

It doesn't matter. Zack would've done no better protecting her, cause he'd just get his ass beaten, and THEN Aerith would've died. Hence my imagining of it. Even if he were close by, that'd mean nothing. Sephiroth wanted to kill her, so she was going to die.

I think that following the Jenova-in-Sephiroth's-form leaving ShinRa HQ would have provided a lot of the tracking assistance that was needed, much how Cloud & Co thought they were actually following Sephiroth.

But Sephiroth wouldn't be leading Zack by the nose with Jenova. He'd have no reason to. Zack wouldn't sense her, nor would he have a means to.

The trail would be much harder to track. He'd have as much luck as the Turks did on their own.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Bear in mind, that was a holographic simulation.

Bear in mind, the Buster sword is also >9000x larger than his tiny First Class one.

It doesn't matter. Zack would've done no better protecting her, cause he'd just get his ass beaten, and THEN Aerith would've died. Hence my imagining of it. Even if he were close by, that'd mean nothing. Sephiroth wanted to kill her, so she was going to die.

As you'll recall though, this is yet again Jenova in Sephiroth's form, not Sephiroth himself (hence the battle with Jenova Life directly afterwards). Zack is almost always fighting people he has some sort of guilt about fighting (Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal). In this case, he would have been in a situation more like Cloud was at Nibelheim - fighting to protect something he really cares about. I think that if Zack was really ever going to beat the shit out of "Sephiroth", it'd be this situation.

But Sephiroth wouldn't be leading Zack by the nose with Jenova. He'd have no reason to. Zack wouldn't sense her, nor would he have a means to.

The trail would be much harder to track. He'd have as much luck as the Turks did on their own.

Agreed, but Jenova leaving ShinRa's HQ is still a key component of Reunion, and the Turks (Tseng at least) managed to get to the Temple of the Ancients before Cloud & Co, so they aren't doing a completely shit job. While he wouldn't have been hot on his trail the whole time, I don't doubt that they would have had encounters along close to the same track.


X

 

[Roger]

Well, 1st Class SOLDIER though he may be, Zack is not without his own flaws/failures. I mean, twice within the plot of CC you have to chase down Hollander, a slightly overweight scientist with no super powers at all (during those times anyway) and somehow Zack can't catch him? :/ haha

I mean, if Cloud is the one who has all this hidden potential and in the end turns out to be the stronger of the two, is it really that much to think that a lot of the things Cloud failed to stop in FFVII Zack would fail to stop as well? Such as the Turks blowing the pillar to bring down Sector 7? Remember, he seems to view the Turks as a threat in CC, which is why he begs Cissnei to let him and Cloud go. I don't think it is a guarantee that he would be able to stop the whole thing.

But I agree, it would take a lot more for Zack to track down Sephiroth. Perhaps something such as running in to a Sephiroth Copy could come into play, or all those people who claim to have seen "a man with a black cloak" heading north.

The only things that I think we can know for certain would be different is that I don't think Zack would join up with Avalanche. Maybe he'd eventually run into them but I don't think he'd be down with blowing reactors. That and Tifa probably wouldn't try to recruit him like she did with Cloud.

Also, most importantly, I don't think Aerith would have been killed, either. Zack wouldn't go crazy at the Temple of the Ancients, thus Aerith wouldn't have fun off on her own like that. I think she would stick with Zack and they would go to the Forgotten City together.

Zack TOLD her ass to go away at which point she chucked her useless shuriken at him which was deflected easily, in no way were the Turks a threat to Zack.
And let me remind you how it went. Cloud and Co enter Shinra tower, they rescue Aerith, they split up, they stand in the elevator, Tseng and Rude step in and Tseng says "was it fun?" and brings them to the top of the tower.
You really think it would go that way between Tseng and Zack, seriously?
And even if does, what possible cause could Jenova/Sephiroth have to open their doors for them the following night?

Then there's the part where they need to figure out about Black Materia and the Temple of the Ancients, completely on their own. And then after the Forgotten City figure to go to Crater, without any input from Sephiroth whatsoever and then they'd still run into a dead end. Sephiroth would stay in the whole Mako tree thing because nobody is coming to give him the Black Materia.

But even if Zack somehow managed to find him up there and shatter his mako crystal and kill him, that would still doom the Planet because Aerith isn't going to bring anyone into the Lifestream to get rid of Sephiroth there because she isn't dead and Sephiroth has no reason to come back to the Planet in physical form to fight Cloud now. Black Lifestream plan will still prevail even if you make a hundred leaps of faith.

 

[Tennyo]

Interestingly enough I outlined some ideas for this in another alternate history thread somewhere, and started writing up a long thing on how it all happened, and where the events moved. I'm somewhat motivated to go find it, and start writing it again.


X

Oo, oo, please do!

It doesn't matter. Zack would've done no better protecting her, cause he'd just get his ass beaten, and THEN Aerith would've died. Hence my imagining of it. Even if he were close by, that'd mean nothing. Sephiroth wanted to kill her, so she was going to die.

This is if he even realizes what she is doing. He only decides to go kill her after her learns that she intends to summon Holy. He only figures this out because Aerith had made the mistake of appearing to Cloud in his head to inform him of her plan.

Zack TOLD her ass to go away at which point she chucked her useless shuriken at him which was deflected easily, in no way were the Turks a threat to Zack.
And let me remind you how it went. Cloud and Co enter Shinra tower, they rescue Aerith, they split up, they stand in the elevator, Tseng and Rude step in and Tseng says "was it fun?" and brings them to the top of the tower.
You really think it would go that way between Tseng and Zack, seriously?
And even if does, what possible cause could Jenova/Sephiroth have to open their doors for them the following night?

Then there's the part where they need to figure out about Black Materia and the Temple of the Ancients, completely on their own. And then after the Forgotten City figure to go to Crater, without any input from Sephiroth whatsoever and then they'd still run into a dead end. Sephiroth would stay in the whole Mako tree thing because nobody is coming to give him the Black Materia.

But even if Zack somehow managed to find him up there and shatter his mako crystal and kill him, that would still doom the Planet because Aerith isn't going to bring anyone into the Lifestream to get rid of Sephiroth there because she isn't dead and Sephiroth has no reason to come back to the Planet in physical form to fight Cloud now. Black Lifestream plan will still prevail even if you make a hundred leaps of faith.

Was Cissnei even trying?

And even if Cissnei all by herself was no match for him, it doesn't mean that the Turks as a whole aren't.

I really don't see how Zack would automatically fair better than Cloud against the Turks in stopping the pillar being blown and keeping Aerith from being captured. A lot of this was a race against time, and Cloud was just too late. The only real deciding factor would be whether or not Aerith went up the pillar with him. If she did, then she probably wouldn't be kidnapped. But if she doesn't, which I would assume Zack would tell her to get out of the sector where she's safe, then she would be left alone and unprotected. If she was even involved, that is. Maybe she would be oblivious of the whole thing and peacefully tending to her flowers in Sector 5.

Oh, but this also makes me think of one thing. The Turks went to abduct Aerith at the church, didn't they? At least Reno did. Would Zack be there with her when this happened? Or would she be alone? Another twist. Maybe Zack ends up having to rescue Aerith before the pillar is even blown.

And if Zack did manage to kill Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, how do you know he wouldn't come back? Wouldn't he hate Zack and want revenge as much as he hates Cloud and would want revenge? I know the fact that he views Cloud as inferior was fuel for his hatred, but you can't assume he wouldn't want to come back. Remember, Sephiroth had to cast off all of his memories save his hatred for Cloud and lust for revenge in order to keep from dissolving into the Lifestream after he was killed at the end of the game. I would imagine this would also be the case once again.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If we are taking the Compilation as canon here, then we need to assume that Tseng's attitude towards AVALANCHE (Mark II) would be somewhat different if he knew Zack was involved. It's also a moot point whether he would have kidnapped Aerith or had her kidnapped if he had known Zack was back.

If the roles were reversed, it wouldn't be nearly such an interesting game. Also, no Wall Market scene.

 

[Tennyo]

That is true. Cloud's search for his true self is what made the game, imho. And you are right, Zack would probably not have dressed in drag to try to get into the Don's mansion, since he would probably not have known Tifa well enough to do so!

Which means Tifa kicking the Don's behind. I like.

 

[looneymoon]

Zack would NOT look good as a girl. At least, not as good as Ms. Cloud

 

[Roger]

Was Cissnei even trying?

And Zack was going all out?

And even if Cissnei all by herself was no match for him, it doesn't mean that the Turks as a whole aren't.

You're the one that used the instance as an example not me.

I really don't see how Zack would automatically fair better than Cloud against the Turks in stopping the pillar being blown and keeping Aerith from being captured.

LOOK AT THE ENDING OF CRISIS CORE, Zack's arms are five times the size of Clous, he was much stronger then beginning of FFVII Cloud.

Oh, but this also makes me think of one thing. The Turks went to abduct Aerith at the church, didn't they? At least Reno did. Would Zack be there with her when this happened? Or would she be alone? Another twist. Maybe Zack ends up having to rescue Aerith before the pillar is even blown.

Well like i said, I don't think Zack would fail to capture Pres. Shinra at Mako Reactor 5, but of all the consessions that you need to make for Zack to do even remotely the same as Cloud, him being in Aeriths church is easily the least heinous.

And if Zack did manage to kill Sephiroth at the Northern Crater, how do you know he wouldn't come back? Wouldn't he hate Zack and want revenge as much as he hates Cloud and would want revenge? I know the fact that he views Cloud as inferior was fuel for his hatred, but you can't assume he wouldn't want to come back. Remember, Sephiroth had to cast off all of his memories save his hatred for Cloud and lust for revenge in order to keep from dissolving into the Lifestream after he was killed at the end of the game. I would imagine this would also be the case once again.

He needed to do that because he was killed first in the real world, then Aerith took Cloud to Lifestream to kill him there, Aerith, who isn't dead in this scenerio, can't do this with Zack so, Sephiroth is free to do whatever he wants in the Lifestream unoppossed, he doesn't need to survive on hatred alone.

AND NO, he wouldn't come back for Zack, because he already beat Zack. He unceremiously godstomped him at Nibelheim, Ultimania goes so far as to say that you would never believe these guys are the same rank if you saw that onesided fight, Sephiroth doesn't need to prove his superiority in relation to Zack, he already has, whereas with Cloud he's gotten killed every single time he tried. That's the difference.

Zack would NOT look good as a girl. At least, not as good as Ms. Cloud

If Fang is any indication then yes he would.