Where a hero began his journey...

[minimosey]

I'm really torn between liking Cloud's explanation of the cliff (hooray, self-esteem for Cloud) and finding it utter bs. It's Zack's death site. Nothing good happened there, even with CC adding the mother of all showdowns, J-Pop, and a speech about legacy, you're still left with these events: Zack got shot, multiple times. Cloud dragged himself over only to be unable to help and watched his friend bleed to death. Cloud did not find a hero's spirit in him there. He found a breakdown that led to him being puppeteered by a psychopath.

Seriously, it's just... I can see him coming to terms with the place, but describing it as where a heroic journey started, especially with that last part? Ummm.

It feels like the Compilation, with Zack's death, completely ignored the point the original game made with Aerith's death, even though both are tragic and only hurtful. That bit especially is bugging me right now.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never saw it as undermining any particular plot point...just as an awkward line that doesn't really make a ton of sense. I feel like they meant him to be talking about Zack? But it describes himself more accurately, which comes off as arrogant, which I have a hard time believing that that's what they were going for.

 

[Ghost X]

When do you think his journey began then?

 

[minimosey]

They can't mean for him to be talking about Zack, since that's the end of his journey. But on other places I'd choose for Cloud:

1) the church, when he agrees to protect Aerith for no monetary reward. His cold mercenary bs moments go way down after this.
2) the sewers (unglamorous as those may be)/sector 7, for similar reasons but on a bigger scale. He's working to prevent a catastrophe, even if it still happened.
3) On the airship, post-Mideel, when he's gotten his act straightened out and is now actually fighting against Sephiroth instead of just thinking he is.

3 is the one I'd see most likely for Cloud to mention, less a place and more of a moment. The thing is, most of time spent chasing Sephiroth isn't the journey of a "hero", it's one of a puppet. You could argue that "where a hero began his journey" doesn't mean he has to be a hero then, it just has to be when he starts moving toward being a hero... but then you could go way back and decide that place would be:

4) On the well, when he made a commitment to becoming a SOLDIER, which set off all the personal events he went through and was actually a place where he was choosing to start a journey and become stronger.

And I don't think it undermines a plot point, per se, just the message in the original game that death is uncaring and brutal. Zack's death didn't inspire anything in Cloud. And if it's supposed to be that Cloud became a hero by carrying the Buster sword's legacy... that seems pretty iffy with him fighting throughout Advent Children without it.

Overall, though, I just think the "hero's journey" is kind of an unusual notion coming from Cloud anyway.

 

[Alex Strife]

I always thought that was a nice reference to Zack.

Zack wanted to become a hero, and it is "after he died" that we hear him saying "Did I become a hero?" so Cloud's take on this is that he did become a hero, starting at that point.

 

[Tifabelle]

You could argue that "where a hero began his journey" doesn't mean he has to be a hero then, it just has to be when he starts moving toward being a hero... but then you could go way back and decide that place would be:

4) On the well, when he made a commitment to becoming a SOLDIER, which set off all the personal events he went through and was actually a place where he was choosing to start a journey and become stronger.

Or even in the Nibelheim reactor. I mean, where do you pinpoint the starting point of his becoming a hero? It's not really possible in Cloud's case, imo.

I mean, the line is very awkward and arguably inaccurate. I mean, at the place where he says it is actually where he began to lose himself. So really Cloud? You becoming a hero starts with you losing your mind? lol

The bottom line is that the notion is very odd coming from Cloud anyway, who doesn't consider himself a hero by any means.

I didn't take it that he meant Zack at all. I mean, that's where Zack began his journey as a hero? It's where he died. If anything, it's where a hero's journey ended. Or something. idk.

Even if the sentiment is intended to be nice, it just comes off as awkward.

 

[minimosey]

I always thought that was a nice reference to Zack.

Zack wanted to become a hero, and it is "after he died" that we hear him saying "Did I become a hero?" so Cloud's take on this is that he did become a hero, starting at that point.

Is it supposed to be a reference to Zack? It still seems kind of clunky (there was not much journeying after that point for Zack), but it makes more sense to me than it being for Cloud.

And yet it still seems weird to me for Cloud to say that was when Zack became a hero, because Cloud looked up to Zack way before that.

 

[Joe]

As Zack said himself, Cloud is his living legacy. No matter what troubles came after that moment, this is when that legacy began.

 

[minimosey]

But Cloud is the one speaking the line, not Zack, so I guess it goes back to what Tifabelle says: I highly doubt that Cloud considers himself a hero solely by virtue of being Zack's legacy, which he became by being the survivor. Being the survivor is what he spent so much time feeling guilty for.

 

[Roger]

This is Advent Children. Wherein Cloud and Aerith go

"I let you die."

"You came, that's all that mattered."

AC doesn't look at disc 1 as a the actions of a mindless puppet. I mean he's manipulated, every FF character is for some portion of the story but, all part of the hero's journey.

 

[minimosey]

Yes. Where Cloud goes "I let you die". He's not proud of his disc 1 actions. Absolution is different from pride.

 

[ForceStealer]

I still don't think he's talking about himself, its way too cocky and ooc for Cloud, he wouldn't call himself a hero. He's talking about Zack because, as Alex said, its a reference to Zack's desire to be a hero and that he asked if he became one after he died. Furthermore, Zack essentially saved him in the fight against Sephiroth in ACC. And like you said, that wouldn't make sense for a spot that Cloud began his journey as a hero anyway.

It's an awkward-as-hell line, but he's talking about Zack.

 

[Tifabelle]

But it's where Zack died. I mean, then say, "This is where someone became a hero." or something to that effect. If Zack is a hero, that is NOT where he began his journey. Unless he's talking about his journey into death. Which I doubt. If he's talking about his personal dealings with Zack as a hero, wouldn't that have started in Nibelheim where Zack helped him escape?

It was a nice sentiment, but so....weird.

I thought he was talking about himself.

 

[ForceStealer]

Why would Cloud ever refer to himself as a hero? The same guy who just ran from everything good in his life because he didn't feel he deserved it.

"This is where someone became a hero."

You're right, that would have been much better, but as stated, its bizarre freakin' line. I just can't see them ever having Cloud say that about himself...

 

[Tifabelle]

Why would Cloud ever refer to himself as a hero? The same guy who just ran from everything good in his life because he didn't feel he deserved it.

That's why I thought it was weird. Among other reasons.

 

[Celes Chere]

. If Zack is a hero, that is NOT where he began his journey.

I agree with what Cess was saying. Cloud is Zack's living legacy. Zack gave his honor, dreams, etc to Cloud. So it's like Cloud's saying his journey as a hero begins, but what he really means is Zack. Since Zack is like a part of him. That's my view.

Since Zack died, he couldn't make it back to Midgar and continue in the events of FFVII and afterwards... so it's like Cloud's journey is also Zack's and shizz idk.

 

[ForceStealer]

What a safe, clean little "he means both of them" solution

But it does kinda work.

 

[minimosey]

Yeah, I guess I can take that explanation. Still not 100% happy with the line, but the change in attitude stems more from CC, ACC is just following up from it.

 

[Roger]

The line is "where a hero started his journey", if Zack is a hero on account of him saving Cloud in Nibelheim then just how in the hell did he become hero or start his jouney upon DEATH. It makes no sense if he were talking about Zack.

Why would Cloud ever refer to himself as a hero? The same guy who just ran from everything good in his life because he didn't feel he deserved it.

He didn't run from anything until he contracted a disease that was going to kill him painfully, no cure in existence. After that he came back.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think it's talking about both Zack and Cloud depending on your perspective. From Cloud's perspective, he's talking about Zack. In his mind, Zack is Cloud's hero because he broke himself and Cloud out of Hojo's lab and brought them all the way to Midgar. He's saying Zack became a hero here because Zack sacrificed himself for Cloud's sake.

From our perspective, Cloud is talking about himself, even though he doesn't know it. We know that this is were Cloud took up Zack's legacy and started becoming a leader. Before this, he was always following someone. Even though his being a leader was "copied", it was genuine in the sense that once he found out who he really was, Cloud stayed the leader.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is that line from ACC? I don't remember it. It's probably just a really poor translation. He has to be talking about Zack. If he were referring to himself, it would make nonsense of the entire film (even more nonsense, I mean). And Square have committed bad translations before, so I'd say that's the likelier explanation.

 

[Tetsujin]

Don't talk about poor translations if you don't even know what they said in the original. =p

Cloud's talking about himself. Case closed.

 

[Alex Strife]

I thought they used the "typical" analogy, death = journey to... hmm... wherever.

So a "Hero" started his "Journey", or something like that.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, it's not a poor translation, its just a poor line. I still don't see Cloud ever calling himself a hero, even with bad writing, but whatever. And yeah Licorice, its in ACC, after the credits.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I still get the feeling it's about Zack as the Hero, but Cloud doing the Journey for Zack. The hero is always Zack. It always was Zack. But the journey that began there was the one undertaken for him by Cloud.

That's the spin I got off it, anyways. It was being positive about the way Zack affected Cloud, instead of being negative about his death.