Why do people like Genesis?

#1
I really want to know. To me (and sorry in advance to all the Genesis fans out there), he is, at best, a wasted opportunity. They could have done so much more with his character, or wiuth a different character in his place. He's dull and I don't care two hoots about him. But I can see that he is hugely popular. Put him in your fanfic and you're bound to get lots of hits. Why? I don't understand his appeal and I'd love for someone to explain it to me. Thanks.
 
#2
I can think of three possible reasons.

1) In the case of fanfics that take place post-DoC, readers are curious about how this writer decides to continues where the Compilation left off.

2) Because Genesis lacks so much character and substance, both the reader and the writer are able to fill in the gaps themselves and make the character what they want him to be. They *create* the image of a character they enjoy, which may in fact be far removed from what Genesis was in Crisis Core.

3) Huge fans of Japanese pop stars see Genesis as a way of imparting Gackt into the FFVII world, but without actually using Gackt, which is a move that could never be taken seriously.

These are merely my speculations though. I don't hang around in fanfic forums and I can't recall reading a single post where somebody claimed to like Genesis.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#3
I also hate Genesis in the way the narrative seems try to potray him as sympathetic but falls flat on its face because of the fact that Genesis' illness is kinda of his own fault and the fact he has done horrible things during the game.Not to mention he comes off as a whiny brat that seems to think the world has wronged him.Also he gets off scot free for all his wrong doings and his so called redemption is ham fisted in the most stupid way.I would be happy if they only had Angeal and written out Genesis.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
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Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
#4
I think its basically because he's Gackt and Gackt is also inexplicably popular and that he's a typical mysterious swordsman bishie. In short - people fancy him. Oh and I think Shademp has a good point in that hes a bit of a blank canvas.

I mean after all much of the compilation reads like bad fanfiction, so its kind of apt innit? :lol:
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#5
I think its basically because he's Gackt and Gackt is also inexplicably popular and that he's a typical mysterious swordsman bishie. In short - people fancy him. Oh and I think Shademp has a good point in that hes a bit of a blank canvas.

I mean after all much of the compilation reads like bad fanfiction, so its kind of apt innit? :lol:
Not to mention all the unecessary retcons that his existence has caused.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#6
I don't hate him at least because he's so different compared to the rest of the cast. He's a romantic, flamboyant, hot-head and nobody in the main FFVII cast has that type of personality. Most of them are stoic realists. And man, does he get in trouble for it. On the other hand, if it wasn't for him, Angeal, Zack, Sephrioth and everybody else wouldn't have found out what genetic manipulation Shin-Ra got to. On the other hand, Genesis really doesn't get how to connect with people, so he tells everyone what Shin-Ra is up to in the completely wrong way. He's also one of the few people in SOLDIER who has other interests the Shin-Ra and SOLDIER, that we know about. I try to imagine what the CC plot would be without him, and it would be really dull as most of the CC cast is content with the status quo until they find out what Shin-Ra has been hiding. Which Genesis is kinda responsible for bringing to their attention.

I think he's an interesting character because he plays the role of the whistle-blower, but he doesn't have any tact, which isn't a very common combination. For me this works as he's a SOLDIER and diplomacy isn't what they're known for.
 
#7
Genesis has the potential to be redeemed and a lot of people LOVE a fallen hero, or a bad a guy ,who can become a hero again. Recipe for intrigue = do bad things, feel guilty over those bad things, redeem yourself for those bad things (looking pretty while doing so also helps)

I think there is/was a faction that would have liked for Sephiroth to have had a shot a redemption because 'he was a good person once' and fanon has given us all sorts of excuses for why it wasn't 'really Sephiroth's fault'. Of course, they couldn't redeem/save Sephiroth, he's a villain and a lot of fans would be angry if they ever tried to redeem him in canon. So instead, we have Genesis, a new character designed to be the "new Sephiroth" a new fallen hero who becomes a monster, but since Genesis is new, the writers can do what they want to with him, so there's a possibility of redemption.

I think many fans have a wish to "save" the bad guy, and I think it partially accounts for all "Draco in leather pants" tropes. Some people want to see a bad guy learn and grow him his mistakes. I feel like Genesis was created to fulfill that niche, to be the fallen hero who's so sympathetic and can be redeemed. He's fangirl bait.
 

Kai Schulen

... ... ...▼
AKA
Trainer Red
#8
Self demonstrating article here, but I do like Genesis a little because I am a Gackt fan. :monster: Visually speaking of course. I'm a little more ambivalent on the actual character myself.

But yeah, Obsidian has a good point -- without Gen, the plot of CC wouldn't have been kicked off.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
#9
There are things I like about him and things I hate. Obsidian mentioned several of the things I like about him. He's somewhat like FFVII's Kuja -- just not done as well.

Also, he does look cool. :monster:

Cameo brings up some solid points as well, and while I love the figure of the redeemed villain, I don't feel like Genesis really fits the mold. At least as we've seen him so far. He doesn't feel any remorse that we're made aware of, and -- as jazzflower has pointed out time and again -- we're not given any genuine reason to believe in his possibility for redemption.

If that is, indeed, the angle they were going with (and I believe it may have been), they missed the mark terribly.

Going back to his similarities to Kuja, we can believe in Kuja's redemption because he expresses regret and he tries to make up for it all -- both when he saves Zidane and co. at the end of FFIX, and when he tries to save the heroes again in Dissidia 012. Unlike Genesis, though, Kuja goes through a good bit of suffering in his endeavour to redeem himself (he dies more than once, for instance; and his memories get hijacked and he gets turned into Kefka's puppet).

I think that's another reason we have no reason to believe in a redeemed Genesis. We've not seen him suffer, and a redeemd villain has to suffer to be pitied.
 
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jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#10
Yeah,it seems like they were trying to make Genesis like Kuja but failed.I also find Genesis' personality to be self centered and obnoxious as well.Not to mention I think him killing his foster parents and destroying his home town should have been potrayed as a moral event horizon that was as bad as Sephiroth burning Nibelheim.

I know his parents were connected to Shinra but they showed him nothing but love and he ruthessly killed them in cold blood.Also the citizens of his hometown had nothing to do really with Shinra and he slaughters them all without any regret.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#11
Not to mention I think him killing his foster parents and destroying his home town should have been potrayed as a moral event horizon that was as bad as Sephiroth burning Nibelheim.
Agreed. That alone would have made him infinitely more memorable and effective, even in the absence of a more well-constructed redemption.
 
#12
I liked Genesis mostly for the same reasons I liked Kuja, but SoS's already mentioned their similarities. But another reason I like him is because he's a villain who isn't sympathetic, and that makes him better at being a villain. I also like how he manages to be a Karma Houdini, I always like a good Karma Houdini since it goes along with my view that Karma is bullshit. He's kind of one of those villains that you love to hate. But yeah, I liked Genesis. Not as much as most other FF villains, but still liked him nonetheless.
 
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jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#13
I liked Genesis mostly for the same reasons I liked Kuja, but SoS's already mentione their similarities. But another reason I like him is because he's a villain who isn't sympathetic, and that makes him better at being a villain. I also like how he manages to be a Karma Houdini, I always like a good Karma Houdini since it goes along with my view that Karma is bullshit. He's kind of one of those villains that you love to hate. But yeah, I liked Genesis. Not as much as most other FF villains, but still liked him nonetheless.
I kinda of dislike Karma Houdinis because sometimes their actions are really bad and just too plain awful to let them just get off scot free.I know a lot of times in real life people get off the hook for awful deeds but in fiction a lot of people want to see the bad guy punished because the creator has the ability to do so.

You are right he is unsympathetic but the problem is the narrative seems to go out of its way to make it look like we are supposed to be sorry for the guy just because he is dying from degradation.Not to mention I would have loved to see someone burn that book he always had with him in front of his face.
 

Lord Noctis

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Caius Ballad
#14
I think I like Genesis more for the possibilities that exist in his character, and less for the way he's been portrayed. His portrayal is rather bland and uninteresting, even if he is largely responsible for the plot of CC.

But there are a number of ways his character could go that could make for some great story and character moments if Square were ever to make a full and proper conclusion to the compilation with no loose ends. Sadly I doubt Square would really take advantadge of these possibilities.

Being a big fanfiction reader and former writer I do find that Genesis' portrayal in the better written fanfics gave me an added appreciation for the character. While the fanfics added a lot to Genesis to make him more interesting, they had to start at the base of his character and work their way up.

So, in short, I like Genesis for the possibilities he represents both in fanfics and canon, but find his actual portrayal thus far in canon to be underwhelming.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#15
See, I think that's what makes Genesis interesting at this point in the Compilation. At the end of CC, he's told us he wants to atone, and Work of God has said that's most likely what he want's to do at the end of DoC. However, we don't know if that's really what he's going to go do. He's right at the point where he's about to prove whether he's learned from his mistakes or not, but we have no idea if he's going to succeed. He could really go either way.

My one problem with condemning Genesis' killing off Banora or Sephiroth killing of Nibieheim is that it makes sense to me in a twisted kind of way. If I was them and had their skill sets... my reaction wouldn't be all that different; I'd probably feel better by the end of it. It's the trying to destroy the world thing I have problems with. Replace that with destroying Shin-Ra though...
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#16
See, I think that's what makes Genesis interesting at this point in the Compilation. At the end of CC, he's told us he wants to atone, and Work of God has said that's most likely what he want's to do at the end of DoC. However, we don't know if that's really what he's going to go do. He's right at the point where he's about to prove whether he's learned from his mistakes or not, but we have no idea if he's going to succeed. He could really go either way.

My one problem with condemning Genesis' killing off Banora or Sephiroth killing of Nibieheim is that it makes sense to me in a twisted kind of way. If I was them and had their skill sets... my reaction wouldn't be all that different; I'd probably feel better by the end of it. It's the trying to destroy the world thing I have problems with. Replace that with destroying Shin-Ra though...
Actually Genesis at the end of the game when he fights Zack it does imply he would try to destroy the world if he couldn't find a way to cure his ailment.So,the being against Shinra becomes just a fimsley excuse because its obvious this guy really is self-centered in his actions and will hurt anyone who gets in his way.That isn't that different from Sephiroth when one thinks about it.
 
#17
My first response to seeing this thread title was "They do?" I hear people express either hatred or ambivalence towards Genesis. Who are we even referring to? The thread is as much of a Genesis dogpile as I expected it to be.
Fanfic authors apparently, but you all know my opinions on 99.9% of fanfiction, so I guess wouldn't have ever noticed or paid attention to that.

File me under ambivalent. I have no problems with him, I have no special attachment to him. I also don't think he really looks like Gackt (in Crisis Core), not anymore than any of Nomura's other characters. The thing I most associate with him is that he has a really cool sword. (Really, one of the best Nomura sword designs hands down.)

And, I know we've been through this, but I still think jazz, Tres, et. al. are pulling this redeemed stuff out of their asses. I well and truly cannot see where we are supposed to sympathize with Genesis. I don't pity him, nor do any of you, but you all seem to be under this impression we were supposed to, why? You list all these horrible thigns he did. ...Exactly! So why are we supposed to sympathize with him? Simply because he didn't die? That doesn't make any sense.

Answer me this, before Crisis Core came out, you had seen Genesis at the end of Dirge. You also knew Genesis was going to be the villain of CC. Was the fact that you knew he had to survive have it in your head that he had to be a sympathetic villain? I should think not, his appearance in Dirge pretty much has EVIL painted all over it. Or at the very least ominous.

And what's all this about Kuja? You're supposed to sympathize with Kuja? That's news to me, he's a petulant immature brat that's
throwing a temper tantrum that Zidane was designed to be a 'better model'. I don't sympathize with Kuja and never have, the fact that Zidane spares him speaks to Zidane's character, not Kuja's.

Likewise, that Zack spares Genesis is more of a commentary on ZACK'S character, not Genesis'. MAYBE Genesis WILL seek to be redeemed in the future. And MAYBE he'll succeed. But that's got &#^$-all to do with his portrayal in Crisis Core.
 
#18
I think him killing his foster parents and destroying his home town should have been potrayed as a moral event horizon that was as bad as Sephiroth burning Nibelheim.

I know his parents were connected to Shinra but they showed him nothing but love and he ruthessly killed them in cold blood.Also the citizens of his hometown had nothing to do really with Shinra and he slaughters them all without any regret.
Yes. And I find it extraordinary that so many fans blame Shinra for the destruction of Banora. This is probably mostly due to Zack's look of bewildered sadness (or sad bewilderment) as he witnesses the bombing and sees the blue apple (symbolic of Angeal) blister, turn black, and fall from the vine. But Shinr awas only bombing empty buildings (and possible a nest of Genesis copies). The last living human being in Banora was Gllian. Genesis had already killed all the rest.

Thanks for the answers. @ Force - yes, I was primarily thinking about fanfic. There are so many fics about Genesis and on a totally selfish level it pisses me off because I have no interest in reading about him or his sexytimes with Sephiroth, Tseng, Angeal, Zack, Reno, Tifa, Cissnei, Rufus, Aerith, Lazard or Cloud - Cloud! This last one really gets my goat because Genesis deserted from Shinra before Cloud even joined. It's not like they ever actually had as much as five minutes alone together for a quick make-out session.

The bishie blank canvas theory makes sense, as does the Sephiroth substitute theory and the "let's redeem this villain" theory.

The thing is, I don't think Genesis is supposed to be a hero, and it really - throws me, I guess is the right word, that anyone could possibly see him in a heroic light. His vainglorious self-centredness is surely designed to be a foil to Zack's true heroism, unsung and unwitnessed. Genesis is a false idol, a "celebrity" hero with feet of clay.

@ Obsidian, I agree that Genesis helps drive forward the plot of CC. Without him, the writers might well have come up with a different (and better) plot. That's why I would have preferred some other kind of character in his place.
 

jazzflower92

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The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#19
I think another reason why fans might like Genesis is because he is a good canidate for being a possession sue.A possession sue is when an fan fiction writer makes a canon character into their author avatar.Genesis since he is fan girl bait will also attract writers who want him paired with their favorite character even those he didn't have that much contact with or never met before.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#21
My first response to seeing this thread title was "They do?" I hear people express either hatred or ambivalence towards Genesis. Who are we even referring to? The thread is as much of a Genesis dogpile as I expected it to be.
Fanfic authors apparently, but you all know my opinions on 99.9% of fanfiction, so I guess wouldn't have ever noticed or paid attention to that.

File me under ambivalent. I have no problems with him, I have no special attachment to him. I also don't think he really looks like Gackt (in Crisis Core), not anymore than any of Nomura's other characters. The thing I most associate with him is that he has a really cool sword. (Really, one of the best Nomura sword designs hands down.)

And, I know we've been through this, but I still think jazz, Tres, et. al. are pulling this redeemed stuff out of their asses. I well and truly cannot see where we are supposed to sympathize with Genesis. I don't pity him, nor do any of you, but you all seem to be under this impression we were supposed to, why? You list all these horrible thigns he did. ...Exactly! So why are we supposed to sympathize with him? Simply because he didn't die? That doesn't make any sense.

Answer me this, before Crisis Core came out, you had seen Genesis at the end of Dirge. You also knew Genesis was going to be the villain of CC. Was the fact that you knew he had to survive have it in your head that he had to be a sympathetic villain?
Before Crisis Core came out, I expected Zack would have a showdown with Genesis in Midgar, possibly underground, and that Genesis would "perish" in a cave-in/explosion/something else that made it look like he was dead. The more and more stuff I saw him do during the game itself, the more and more certain I became that this is exactly the direction we were going in.

Force said:
I should think not, his appearance in Dirge pretty much has EVIL painted all over it. Or at the very least ominous.
Exactly part of the reason I expected the conflict in CC to end with "The evil has been vanquished! ... Only not quite."

Force said:
And what's all this about Kuja? You're supposed to sympathize with Kuja? That's news to me, he's a petulant immature brat that's
throwing a temper tantrum that Zidane was designed to be a 'better model'. I don't sympathize with Kuja and never have, the fact that Zidane spares him speaks to Zidane's character, not Kuja's.
I haven't said that Zidane sparing him speaks to Kuja's character. However, we aren't supposed to see him in the same light as Sephiroth, even with FFIX alone.

Dissidia 012, though, definitely paints a sympathetic picture of him. He's actually trying to do the right thing, it blows up in his face, and then he gets lured to his death by Kefka before the crazy jester mentally ass rapes him and turns him against the main person he was trying to save.

Force said:
Likewise, that Zack spares Genesis is more of a commentary on ZACK'S character, not Genesis'. MAYBE Genesis WILL seek to be redeemed in the future. And MAYBE he'll succeed. But that's got &#^$-all to do with his portrayal in Crisis Core.
You speak on this topic as though jazz or myself was the one to come up with the idea that the developers intended him to be seen in a new light at the end. :monster: But it wasn't us:

The Crisis Core Ultimania Q&A said:
By being defeated by Zack, Genesis is able to regain the pride he had as a SOLDIER, and with Sephiroth and Angeal now dead, he decided that it is up to him, who has being left behind, to protect the world. And so, in order to prepare for the day when a crisis threatens the world, Genesis seals himself in the flooded chamber on his own volition.
That is not the same Genesis we saw in the game.

Now, maybe "protecting the world" will be a bad thing, but it is nonetheless different from what he was trying to do during Crisis Core, where he was an utterly selfish villain who declared "If I go, the world goes with me."

Maybe he hasn't been redeemed, but it was they -- not we -- who put that on the table. We agree that he hasn't been redeemed and are calling bullshit on the whole idea put forth that he has been.

The fanfic world could stand to cool it with 'sue' monikers.
Looks like Mary and Gary aren't the special snowflakes they used to be. :monster:
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
#22
One thing I am surprised is the scenario of "What if Genesis had caused the Nibelheim Incident?" which hasn't really been explored as a concept I know just two fanfictions which tackle this possiblity.One is ongoing and the other has had only random long between updates.In the former story Genesis becomes the main villain and is actually working with the Tsviets plus stopped his degrading by using the cells of Jenova which also gave him a power upgrade.
 

Unlucky

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN
#23
I so hate Genesis that I'm not sure if I can form a coherent post about why I dislike him so much.

If Genesis is to be removed from Crisis Core's storyline then I believe there's a chance for the story to be more compelling than the lame, boring tale that it is. It's not a guarantee, but what I'm trying to say is that a large chunk of CC is related to his whiny bitching and apple holding and poem reciting (so deep). There are other ways to show Shinra's wrongdoings and how it affects every character than watching some hero wanna-be whining like a diva.

I don't really have a solid story formed in my head, just a few ideas here and there, but if I were to write CC's story all over again, I can imagine myself keeping most of the characters, including Hollander, but NOT Genesis.

I'd rather focus on Angeal, a firm believer of SOLDIER honor, who feels wronged and ultimately turns against Shinra, breaking Zack's heart and making them enemies, but at the same time causing Zack to question his loyalty and SOLDIER pride and whatnot. Because that part of the story actually evoked some emotion in me other than boredom from LOVELESS recitals or frustration over not being able to skip cutscenes of some bitch in red leather.
 
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Kuja9001

Ooooh Salty!
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roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
#24
I haven't said that Zidane sparing him speaks to Kuja's character. However, we aren't supposed to see him in the same light as Sephiroth, even with FFIX alone.

Dissidia 012, though, definitely paints a sympathetic picture of him. He's actually trying to do the right thing, it blows up in his face, and then he gets lured to his death by Kefka before the crazy jester mentally ass rapes him and turns him against the main person he was trying to save.
Wow, Dissh*tdia wrecked him too!?
 

Dawnbreaker

~Heiress of Her Will~
#25
I didn't care for Kuja or Genesis so it makes a lot of sense that people are comparing the two. And I hated them for the same reasons: overly-poetic, vainglorious beyond reason and entirely selflish. I know that makes them valid villlains but I find those type of antagonists to be tiresome. It's like some bratty two year old that tugs on your pant leg and begs to be listened to. Blah!
 
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