Why is everyone "sinning"?

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

This is something that was kind of brought to my attention by someone's comment on my doujinshi, in which Lucrecia asks Vincent the same "Can sins such as these ever be forgiven?" line as Cloud does in Advent Children. This reader thought it was odd that Lucrecia would speak the same line as Cloud and thought it was out of character for Lucrecia, and while I responded that yes, the coincidence of her asking the exact same question is meant to be a slightly unrealistic coincidence, there is already a canon establishment of Lucrecia referring to her past crimes as sins.

Here was my response to him on the topic of everyone talking about "sins":

I think Lucrecia had plenty of “sins,” and she’ll spend a fair amount of time discussing all of them later on. I think referring to past crimes as “sins” is a (minor) theme established in the compilation, as Vincent, Lucrecia, and Cloud all do this in the canon. Lucrecia refers to her crime against Sephiroth as a sin in the flashback scene in FF7:

“I wanted to disappear. I couldn’t be with anyone… I wanted to die. But the Jenova inside me wouldn’t let me die. Lately, I dream a lot of Sephiroth, my dear, dear child. Ever since he was born, I never got to hold him, not even once. You can’t call me his mother. That is my sin.”

Yes, there is the peculiar, coincidental (but canonically established) linguistic choice of Vincent, Lucrecia, and Cloud all referring to their past crimes against other people as “sins,” which isn’t all that common of a word in non-Judeo-Christian English. I figure this could either be a translation issue (i.e., maybe the word they use in Japanese has less religious connotations), an oversight (i.e., they forgot to consider that in the relatively non-religious world that FF7 happens in, its inhabitants probably weren’t raised having the concept of sinning on their minds as much as our world’s inhabitants might be), or an intentional theme. Either way, I try to go with “intentional theme” as much as possible, at least for the purposes of establishing my fanfiction’s continuity.

It’s possible that Cloud picked up the use of the word “sin” from Vincent in FF7 and intentionally used that word when he asked Vincent about whether or not “sins” can ever be forgiven in Advent Children, because he was trying to draw a purposeful analogy between his situation and Vincent’s in order to ask for advice, but then it is somewhat odd that Vincent and Lucrecia would have both individually used that same word without being influenced by the other’s use of it. (Vincent uses it before Lucrecia does, when the team wakes him up in Shinra Manor, and Lucrecia was not there to hear him use it before she does in the FF7 grotto scene.)

But I'm wondering what you bunch think about it. ("It" being all these characters talking about their "sins" in the compilation, not in my fanfiction. )

We don't typically go around talking about sinning IRL unless we're super religious, and it seems to me that no one is really super religious in FF7. I also don't remember too much about Minerva, but it seemed like she was a fairly minor deity in their world and not exactly at the same level of prominence as this "God" character we have in our world.

Do you think that when characters are talking about "sinning," they mean doing things that Minerva doesn't want people to do, or is it supposed to have a completely non-religious meaning?

And are there any other characters who speak of sinning that I am forgetting?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm assuming that in the original Japanese a word is used for which our Judeo-Christian based culture and language has no exact equivalent, so "sin" was employed in the translation to denote an offence which may not be legally a crime but which is nevertheless a crime against morality, human decency, human rights etc....

"Sin" and "atonement" - the stain on one's soul that results from participating in wrong-doing; "atonement" the means by which the soul is cleansed - are a big theme in FFVII and also in western literature, obviously. I don't know if it's the same in Japanese literature but I imagine not, since it's the Judeo-Christian tradition which posits an intimate one-to-one relationship between the individual soul and god. The Turks also talk about "atonement", and apparently so does Rufus - in CoS and, I think, The Kids Are All Right, he seems very keen on them changing their ways and atoning.

In fact as far as I can remember, the only characters who don't talk about atoning are Reeve and Yuffie.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

In fact as far as I can remember, the only characters who don't talk about atoning are Reeve and Yuffie.

The ShinRa exec and the thief. I mean, surely neither of them have anything to atone for.

What about Genesis and Angeal? Seems like something one or both of them would have brought up in Crisis Core.

Although, maybe it's just me, but I feel like "sin" has more religious connotation than "atone."

 

[Kai Schulen]

Non religious meaning. People forget that the word sin also has other definitions that has nothing to do with religion:

any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.

any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense

Cloud, Vincent, Lucrecia all regret their actions, right?

Also, you have to consider the syntax: if Cloud had said to Vincent "Hey, I screwed up and did something really bad and feel like shit about it, do you think I can be forgiven?", well... it doesn't have the same weight or tone as "do you think sins can ever be forgiven?".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think many people in today's areligious age talk about their sins (except maybe in a jocular way, i.e., the "sin" of eating an entire tub of ice-cream at once sitting). They may talk about regrets, they may talk about guilt, but sin and atonement have always been primarily religious concepts. The two go hand in hand: when you sin, you mar your soul; to repair the damage done to your soul, you have to atone. Characters in FFVII talk about sin+atonement. This suggests that they have a shared moral code and can recognise when it has been violated (except for the ones whose souls are too corrupted, such as Hojo and President Shinra), but I think it would be assuming too much to imagine that it is a European or American moral code.

I thought it might be interesting to see how a Muslim explains the Christian concept of sin and atonement and compares it to the position Islam takes.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/chapter_2.html

Without a god of some sort to whom one's soul must render an account of itself at the end of life, there doesn't seem to be much point in atoning. Except to make yourself feel less guilty, I guess.

I wonder to what extent the various cast members feel they have sinned against the planet, since it is a god of some sort, a quasi-immortal organic being.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

“[God] does not forgive sins without exacting retribution; as it would be against the dictates of absolute justice.”

This is super interesting to me, as it points out that tendency we have to equate justice and vengeance. I never realized before that it might be because Christianity implies the two go hand in hand.

In fact, there’s an important part in my story later on where this is brought up, in a way. How we tend to think that people won’t just forgive us through empathy instead of retribution. At least, someone in my story realizes they’ve been assuming that when they didn’t need to be.

It certainly seems as though the “sinful” characters of FF7, at least, are trying to mete out retribution upon themselves, no? Vincent locking himself in a coffin, Lucrecia isolating herself and sealing herself away in crystal, Cloud…generally angsting. Rufus funding the WRO?

I wonder to what extent the various cast members feel they have sinned against the planet, since it is a god of some sort, a quasi-immortal organize being.

Funnily enough, even AVALANCHE the extreme environmentalists don't speak of Shinra "sinning" against the Planet, do they? One would think that if anyone were to speak of sins against the Planet, it would be either AVALANCHE, Bugenhagen, or the Ancients, and it would be about either the actions of Shinra or at least Jenova.

Instead, all mentions of "sinning" seem to be moral crimes against other humans. Not even against the deity Minerva.

Unless Rufus's perceived crime is what Shinra did to the Planet. I'll have to reread the novellas. When Rufus speaks of sinning/atonement, is it about what he/they did against the Planet, or against other people?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

“[God] does not forgive sins without exacting retribution; as it would be against the dictates of absolute justice.”

This is super interesting to me, as it points out that tendency we have to equate justice and vengeance. I never realized before that it might be because Christianity implies the two go hand in hand.

Hmm. Kind of yes and kind of no, I think. Christians believe that it isn't possible to atone for our sins through any actions of our own. Since death was the original punishment for the original sin, only the death of a god was a big enough sacrifice to atone for humanity's sin. So on a cosmic scale justice = a balance of reward and punishment, but Jesus tended to imply that justice was God's business; people were supposed to forgive each other, and since God also forgives if you ask him to, it's debatable whether there's actually anyone in hell. Presumably only the ones too stubborn or arrogant to ask for forgiveness.

In fact, there’s an important part in my story later on where this is brought up, in a way. How we tend to think that people won’t just forgive us through empathy instead of retribution. At least, someone in my story realizes they’ve been assuming that when they didn’t need to be.

That sounds interesting. It's hard, though, to take forgiveness as a gift - as charity - rather than as something you've earned.

It certainly seems as though the “sinful” characters of FF7, at least, are trying to mete out retribution upon themselves, no? Vincent locking himself in a coffin, Lucrecia isolating herself and sealing herself away in crystal, Cloud…generally angsting. Rufus funding the WRO?

In Rufus' case, the sins of the father were visited on the son. (Numbers 14:18 - I had to look up that reference). It's hard to see what he is guilty of, since all the decisions he made while president were based on sound principles of good government. He said he was going to rule by fear, but actually he was rather popular - until Meteorfall. I do think he's atoning for the various sins of Shinra - sucking mako, making Sephiroth, unleashing Jenova on the planet. I get the impression he accepts this legacy of sin+atonement. Yet he always seems very optimistic. I wonder if this is because he carries the weight of a corporate guilt but very little personal guilt. Even Reno was following orders; the plate would have fallen whether he'd dropped it or not.

Whereas Lucretia, Vincent, Cloud, Barret - they all bear the weight of a personal sin of omission or commission committed against someone who was supposed to be dear to them. Especially Lucretia, Vincent and Barret. Things went bad as a direct result of the decisions they made. Cloud just somehow seems never to be able to intervene in time when people he loves are being killed. His doesn't seem to be a sin so much as... I guess he sees it as a weakness.

Funnily enough, even AVALANCHE the extreme environmentalists don't speak of Shinra "sinning" against the Planet, do they? One would think that if anyone were to speak of sins against the Planet, it would be either AVALANCHE, Bugenhagen, or the Ancients, and it would be about either the actions of Shinra or at least Jenova.

Instead, all mentions of "sinning" seem to be moral crimes against other humans. Not even against the deity Minerva.

Yes, you're right. Avalanche and Bugenhagen are clear that what Shinra is doing to the planet is wrong, but not so much morally wrong as practically, pragmatically wrong. In our world we don't seem to think it's morally wrong to drive cars or fly in airplanes, despite what this is doing to the planet, and yet we all know we're headed down the road to disaster.

But, yes, the "sins" they refer to are always crimes against other people.

Unless Rufus's perceived crime is what Shinra did to the Planet. I'll have to reread the novellas. When Rufus speaks of sinning/atonement, is it about what he/they did against the Planet, or against other people?

I accidentally addressed this earlier.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Hmm. Kind of yes and kind of no, I think. Christians believe that it isn't possible to atone for our sins through any actions of our own. Since death was the original punishment for the original sin, only the death of a god was a big enough sacrifice to atone for humanity's sin. So on a cosmic scale justice = a balance of reward and punishment, but Jesus tended to imply that justice was God's business; people were supposed to forgive each other, and since God also forgives if you ask him to, it's debatable whether there's actually anyone in hell. Presumably only the ones too stubborn or arrogant to ask for forgiveness.

True in that humans Are Doing It Wrong, but I think the overall "before you can be forgiven you must make penance" exchange is still etched into the psyches of people who are raised upon that dogma, although it might be Catholicism specifically. Even if that's only meant to be true in a person-God relationship, I think we transfer that into our understanding of person-person relationships.

In Rufus' case, the sins of the father were visited on the son. (Numbers 14:18 - I had to look up that reference). It's hard to see what he is guilty of, since all the decisions he made while president were based on sound principles of good government. He said he was going to rule by fear, but actually he was rather popular - until Meteorfall. I do think he's atoning for the various sins of Shinra - sucking mako, making Sephiroth, unleashing Jenova on the planet. I get the impression he accepts this legacy of sin+atonement. Yet he always seems very optimistic. I wonder if this is because he carries the weight of a corporate guilt but very little personal guilt. Even Reno was following orders; the plate would have fallen whether he'd dropped it or not.

Do you think that's why Tifa and Cloud seem somewhat willing to accept them as allies(ish), despite the Turks killing most of Sector 7? Or is their alliance in Advent Children just a matter of convenience? Would they forgive the Turks, I wonder?

Whereas Lucretia, Vincent, Cloud, Barret - they all bear the weight of a personal sin of omission or commission committed against someone who was supposed to be dear to them. Especially Lucretia, Vincent and Barret. Things went bad as a direct result of the decisions they made. Cloud just somehow seems never to be able to intervene in time when people he loves are being killed. His doesn't seem to be a sin so much as... I guess he sees it as a weakness.

*Lucrecia

Sorry, pet peeve.

Good thought about Cloud. He talks about sinning, particularly against Aeris, and yeah he did just kind of stand there and watch while she was killed (and almost killed her himself), but what did he actually do to cause her to be killed? What is his "sin," exactly? When Zack died he was unconscious and when his mom died he was...unconscious again? Attending to the issue elsewhere? Trying to save her? I forget how CC portrayed it but I know in FF7, Zack comes out of Cloud's home and shakes his head sadly at a fallen MP nearby which I always assumed was meant to be Cloud who tried to save his mom but couldn't, and passed out outside. Either way, he didn't cause either of them to be killed, either.

Yes, you're right. Avalanche and Bugenhagen are clear that what Shinra is doing to the planet is wrong, but not so much morally wrong as practically, pragmatically wrong. In our world we don't seem to think it's morally wrong to drive cars or fly in airplanes, despite what this is doing to the planet, and yet we all know we're headed down the road to disaster.

And even we don't worship the planet as a deity. Or most of us don't, anyway.

But, yes, the "sins" they refer to are always crimes against other people.

So then if Planet-worship is essentially their religion, "sins" don't seem to have a religious meaning for them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't see any evidence that planet-worship is their religion.

 

[Kai Schulen]

The only people who could have possibly worshipped the Planet would have to be the Cetra. (And even then, I wouldn't call it worship.) (I have to wonder why people have to insist that the world of FFVII has to have religion, couldn't the populace be agnostic or atheist? Kidding. )

And as for Cloud's sin (as to why he feels like it's a sin), well... Two words: Survivor's guilt. It's easy for us to step back and look at things objectively and say "Cloud, you didn't commit a sin, there was nothing you could have done to save Zack and Aerith" because we're the audience but if we were in Cloud's boots, can we really say the same thing and believe our own words?
Also, Cloud is a man of action -- he's not the type of person to abandon a friend or loved ones right when they're in danger or when they need help. If there's anything he can do to help, Cloud would seriously do it because he's that stubbornly loyal to his friends and family. Throw in the fact that Cloud hates his own weakness and perceived himself as weak when he was a child, combine that with when he feels like he can't fulfill his promises to his friends and family or protect anyone, well, it's gonna weigh pretty heavily on Cloud's mind. Like in Advent Children.

Also, different people perceive sin differently and all that.

 

[Roger]

You know, he did straight up hand the Black Materia too Sephiroth. That's a sin.

 

[Kai Schulen]

Wasn't that because of Sephiroth manipulated Cloud into handing it over though? But yeah, that'd count as a sin...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'd be really interested to know which Japanese word or phrase in the original is translated as "sin". English is a language that evolved in a culture with a Christian outlook and Christian concepts, and so the language reflects that. If the Japanese word is this - 罪, つみ, translated in denshi jisho as "crime, fault, indiscretion, sin", then it doesn't carry the same meaning. In English not all crimes are sins and not all sins are crimes. This is a useful distinction that we should try to preserve.

Trainer Red wrote
(I have to wonder why people have to insist that the world of FFVII has to have religion, couldn't the populace be agnostic or atheist?

I guess because historically all cultures have a religion of some sort. I don't think there is such a thing as a society that never developed a concept of god. Atheism seems to require a high degree of - I don't really know what to call it. Intellectual sophistication?

 

[Roger]

As for Rufus, Shinra did continue to use Mako energy under his leadership, and pursue his fathers dream of building a Neo-Midgar in the Promised Land and when the Weapons awoke, he used Mako power to fight them. And he moved the Mako Cannon to Midgar which Hojo then used to just supply Sephiroth with more power. So when the Lifestream left the Reactors inoperable after Meteorfall I'd say he was quite right in going "my bad."

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I have to wonder why people have to insist that the world of FFVII has to have religion, couldn't the populace be agnostic or atheist? Kidding.

I have actually always preferred the interpretation that they live in an atheist society, as this was my initial impression when I first played the game. Because they don't talk about religion. But then, they have churches and angel statues and speak of sinning.

The church, angel, and existence of Minerva I'm willing to pass off as "Yeah that religion exists and has some public structures but only a small fraction of the population believe in it so it doesn't play a huge role in our overall culture," much like the random some-other-denomination-of-Christianity church that was at my bus stop in my mostly Catholic home town. I could have fallen through that roof and still never known or cared what exactly they were preaching in there.

But the specific use of the word "sin" is the part that gets me wondering about if they had a religion that perhaps they're taught in youth as a formality but the role it plays in their life is only prominent enough for them to be aware of these concepts without having to do any active worshipping (a la church on Sundays) or talking about constantly.

 

[Octo]

I think a lot of the symbolism in FFVII (one winged)Angels, Sephiroth's name, becoming a God - it's all rooted in a mishmash of religious imagery.

Certainly in Wutai there is evidence of religion as they worship Leviathan. But I think in general it's just something that occurs in the background for most people, Midgar I suppose is meant to be a godless/void of spirituality sort of place -hence the abandoned church.

As for the use of the word 'Sin' I would be interested to see what the Japanese equivalent is, but it certainly has more gravitas than 'fuck ups' or 'stuff I feel bad about' Even though half of the stuff people are beating themselves up over isn't stuff I'd consider a 'sin'

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Agreed with you and Licky in that I would really like to know which word is used in Japanese.

Midgar I suppose is meant to be a godless/void of spirituality sort of place -hence the abandoned church.

But even that implies there used to be a religion.

Super makes sense though that a city governed by a corporation would be void of spirituality.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think they've forgotten their religion like they've forgotten the names of the villages that used to be where Midgar is now. The people of FFVII (with certain notable exceptions) live almost completely in the moment. They have practically no history, by which I mean that they don't remember it. They have forgotten the past and they don't worry about the future. Shinra takes care of everything. Godo, having been defeated by Shinra, is also trying to forget the past - the glories of Wutai which shame him when he remembers them and compares the Wutai of the past with the Wutai of the present. His wilful amnesia infuriates Yuffie.

I think one day I'll write an essay about the theme of memory and forgetting in FFVII. Unless someone else has done that already?

 

[Octo]

^You should doo eiiiit Lic.

Yeah. I think FFVII world is like the 80's - greed is good and all that. I'm sure that there are religious people, but I don't think they wanted to make too much of it as it wasn't really important to the story.

Not that I'm saying religion is inherently good of course, but I think the obsession with accruing material wealth is bad.

As for Vincent and Cloud - they seem to be beating themselves up for not being perfect or infallible, when as far as I could see there was very little they could have done to avoid their particular 'sins'. If Cloud hadn't met Aerith - the Turks would have captured her eventually and she would have died in Hojo's lab (and probably suffered unimaginably) Vincent would have had to kidnap Lucrecia to prevent her and Hojo going through with the experiment - and Shinra would have hunted them down eventually anyway.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I think they've forgotten their religion like they've forgotten the names of the villages that used to be where Midgar is now. The people of FFVII (with certain notable exceptions) live almost completely in the moment. They have practically no history, by which I mean that they don't remember it. They have forgotten the past and they don't worry about the future. Shinra takes care of everything. Godo, having been defeated by Shinra, is also trying to forget the past - the glories of Wutai which shame him when he remembers them and compares the Wutai of the past with the Wutai of the present. His wilful amnesia infuriates Yuffie.

I think one day I'll write an essay about the theme of memory and forgetting in FFVII. Unless someone else has done that already?

That's a really good point, the repetitive forgetting of history. Also it might be worth pointing out that the only library we see in Midgar is in the Shinra Building and it's pretty tightly locked up. The only other library I can think of is in the Shinra Mansion, also hidden away and controlled by Shinra. Historically, when one group means to erase history they do it by burning books, destroying libraries, controlling who is allowed literacy, etc. Perhaps Shinra means to control what history the people do and do not remember by being the only ones with libraries?

Godo doing that separately, of his own will, for different reasons, of course.

As for Vincent and Cloud - they seem to be beating themselves up for not being perfect or infallible, when as far as I could see there was very little they could have done to avoid their particular 'sins'. If Cloud hadn't met Aerith - the Turks would have captured her eventually and she would have died in Hojo's lab (and probably suffered unimaginably) Vincent would have had to kidnap Lucrecia to prevent her and Hojo going through with the experiment - and Shinra would have hunted them down eventually anyway.

Well, I think Vincent's "sin" was "not even trying." Less about how productive that would have been and more about the fact that he didn't do it at all. But yes, I don't think he ultimately could have had any influence on what happened, as Skan and I actually recently discussed in regard to an AU fic he is planning. Shinra was too powerful, and even if Vincent convinced Lucrecia to run away with him—especially after she was already pregnant with the project specimen—Shinra would have hunted them down to recover their very valuable property at all costs, I think. (Also why anyone "rescuing" Sephiroth as a child would have been out of the question.) There is the argument that Vincent could have helped Lucrecia resolve her angst before becoming pregnant and they could have just used someone else's baby for the project, but if she knew sensitive information about what Shinra was up to as their employee on a top secret project, would they have allowed that anyway? Gast ran off and was hunted and killed for it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Japanese word you guys are wondering about is 罪 ("tsumi"), which means "crime," "transgression" or "sin." It's the word used in Japanese when referring to religious, moral or spiritual failing, is generally used in those contexts, and was used as such even prior to translating the Christian concept.

 

[Skan]

I think they've forgotten their religion like they've forgotten the names of the villages that used to be where Midgar is now. The people of FFVII (with certain notable exceptions) live almost completely in the moment. They have practically no history, by which I mean that they don't remember it. They have forgotten the past and they don't worry about the future. Shinra takes care of everything. Godo, having been defeated by Shinra, is also trying to forget the past - the glories of Wutai which shame him when he remembers them and compares the Wutai of the past with the Wutai of the present. His wilful amnesia infuriates Yuffie.

I think one day I'll write an essay about the theme of memory and forgetting in FFVII. Unless someone else has done that already?

This reminded me of an essay I read a few months ago about identity and history in Final Fantasy VII. Took a while to find it, but here it is, if you're interested: Displacement in Final Fantasy VII

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@Ravynne: See the manga Deadman Wonderland for a take on what happens when the scientist doesn't want to experiment on her own kid, and decides to experiment on someone else's. Actually, that manga deals with a lot of the same themes/plot ideas that FFVII does...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

This reminded me of an essay I read a few months ago about identity and history in Final Fantasy VII. Took a while to find it, but here it is, if you're interested: Displacement in Final Fantasy VII

Thanks. That was an awesome essay, and this is an awesome comment underneath it:

"In some ways, FFVII is the anti-Wizard of Oz I think. Instead of a escapist film made during the Great Depression, we have a Depression Game made during the Escapism Era."

I wish the essay was longer and explored more. I'd have loved for him to have analyzed other characters. Not just Vincent, Yuffie, and Tifa, but some of the more minor characters as well. Rufus, Reeve, the Turks, Genesis, Zack, Hojo?

The Japanese word you guys are wondering about is 罪 ("tsumi"), which means "crime," "transgression" or "sin." It's the word used in Japanese when referring to religious, moral or spiritual failing, is generally used in those contexts, and was used as such even prior to translating the Christian concept.

So what do you make of that? Do you think we're supposed to feel it's a religious kind of sinning?