Wishes for future materia and combat mechanics.

[Stiggie]

Wanted a thread specifically ton spitball idea and hopes for the combat mechanics going forward. Mostly in terms of materia combinations, but since I felt that was perhaps a bit too limited, also for combat mechanics in general.

Ones I really want:

auto-materia: I know we have an "auto-cure" materia, but I want a more general auto materia that can be combined with cure for auto-regen, but can also be used for "auto-protect", "auto-shell", and "Auto-haste". "auto-reflect".

cover-materia: Where the character will have a chance to take damage instead of your active character if the attack would kill your active character. (might overlap with Barrets ability too much though).

counter materia: Not sure what would be the best way to utilize this, whether it should be purple or blue, but counters are fun, and characters besides Cloud deserve some version of it:

Counter magic: When hit by magic, counter with linked materia.

Reflect materia: Speaks for itself

Add status materia: Speaks for itself

Interrupt-down: reduces chance to be interrupted or knocked down from an attack.

Reduce-cooldown: Make it so you can more easily interrupt your own attack chains in order to link a different attack or run away. Secondarily, since this removes the need to touch the ground before chaining attacks, I want either this, or some other Materia, to allow me to use abilities while airborne.
Just in general, I need airborne abilities for Cloud, Tifa, and other non-range characters.

First off, I kind of like how currently, there is a hard cap on the amount of certain Materia you can obtain, since that forces you to diversify more, it can prevent any potentially overpowered Materia from becoming over-saturated on everyones set-up. So I don't want that to change until possibly post game, I know a true "new game+" is extremely unlikely considering the fact that new items and materia will not be programmed into the earlier games, but at the very least, it should be possible to EVENTUALLY play the final installment of the game completely overpowered should you so choose.


And while I understand that the reason non-active characters don't do much is because you're meant to switch between them, I'd still like at least SOME choices concerning their AI. Hell, I don't even mind if some of it is done through materia like with "auto-cure". Maybe something like "Auto-ability", where a character uses the ability that belongs with their equipped weapon whenever they have 2 full atb bars.


If we get more options about controlling the non-active characters, then I'd also like a way to switch out characters during combat.


Combo attacks.

Eventually, a hp-limit break, and probably a lvl limit break, since I don't think an eventual lvl 99 will be enough for all the games we'll still need to go through.

 

[kathy202]

About the AI, I really wish they'd make it smarter about staying in Aerith's wards and shields. She's my favorite character to play, but I have to do so much work to get others to be good team players!

And yeah, combo attacks would be awesome. Start a move with one character and finish it off with another or something like that.

 

[Stiggie]

About the AI, I really wish they'd make it smarter about staying in Aerith's wards and shields. She's my favorite character to play, but I have to do so much work to get others to be good team players!

And yeah, combo attacks would be awesome. Start a move with one character and finish it off with another or something like that.

Ah yeah, good one, it's one of the reasons I didn't like using Aerith. I hated that whenever I wasn't playing her for 2 seconds, I'd have to run back towards the ward before I could cast.

I like the idea of combo attacks since I've already seen so many cool shots of Tifa and Cloud kicking the shit of things together, I'd love more actual interaction in combat.
Hell, perhaps even with fitting voice dialogue, that would feel so cool, "Get him from above", "gotcha!", while launching Tifa from his sword or something.

 

[kathy202]

Seriously, getting the entire party to stay in arcane ward is like herding cats.

Come to think of it, the synergy materia acted like a combo, but it never felt right or useful to me, probably because it wasn't skills specific to each character.

 

[Wol]

coordinated attacks, exemple: if X is close to Y they both cast Fire together to create a bigger explosion.

aerial combat: Advent Children shit

 

[Stiggie]

Seriously, getting the entire party to stay in arcane ward is like herding cats.

Come to think of it, the synergy materia acted like a combo, but it never felt right or useful to me, probably because it wasn't skills specific to each character.

Honestly never figured out how synergy worked so I never used it, the tooltip was trash.

 

[Lulcielid]

Rework the stagger system (or remove it), they way it currently works makes your combat decision making very flowchart with little way of creative imput. It emphasies following: stagger build moves/ elemental weakness --> damage dealing moves (Performing otherwise is very inneficient).

A clear example is how Focus Thrust is only useful to build stagger and when that happens the move becomes irrelevant during the duration of stagger. Same with Braver and Infinity's End, there's no point in using said move outside of an staggered foe.

 

[Stiggie]

Rework the stagger system (or remove it), they way it currently works makes your combat decision making very flowchart with little way of creative imput. It emphasies following: stagger build moves/ elemental weakness --> damage dealing moves (Performing otherwise is very inneficient).

A clear example is how Focus Thrust is only useful to build stagger and when that happens the move becomes irrelevant during the duration of stagger. Same with Braver and Infinity's End, there's no point in using said those move outside of an staggered foe.

Can't agree, I really liked the stagger system and I used all those moves constantly outside of their optimal usage. I also liked the strategy of there being optimal moments to use certain abilities. Especially with Tifa I was really enjoying pressuring, then staggering, the opponent.

I don't want all abilities to be the same except for the amount of damage they do, and right now I did really feel like nearly each ability had it's own niche, figuring out that niche and using them correctly while in the flow of combat was extremely satisfying.

Regular enemies are weak enough that you didn't have to do it, but using the correct element always felt satisfying to me because of the stagger mechanic. If you don't like it, I suggest that they make the requirements more varied, or mix it up some other way, just removing it is a bad idea I think.

 

[kathy202]

I liked the stagger mechanics too. I didn't think it was too much of a problem, but one way to address that flowchart-like choices could be to add more varied ways of staggering. They did that for some bosses, like taking down specific parts first, though I suppose they could have done that more and included the regular mobs too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The only flaw in the stagger mechanics for me was how one's optimally executed strategies would amount to nothing when a boss hit the HP threshold that triggered the next phase of their battle. You'd lose out on that remaining 25/50/75 percent of stagger.

Obviously there should be exceptions, but for the most part, the phase transitions should be delayed until stagger ends to reward the player for playing optimally. Otherwise, I absolutely love the mechanic.

 

[Ite]

A new blue materia I just thought of that fits the combat. I’ll call it Snap.

“Bend time and space in your favour when the linked materia is used.”

1-Star: Increases the animation speed for the linked ability or spell by 25%
2-Star: Increases the animation speed for the linked ability or spell by 50%
3-Star: Increases the animation speed for the linked ability or spell by 75%

Only one orb in the game, like Magnify. Unlike other speed materia that boosts to your ATB, this directly affects and compliments the action-game elements of the combat.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Give us Ultros as a summon, you cowards.

You gave us Typhon before. Now do the rest!

 

[looneymoon]

Something about the summon system feels really inelegant? Including them as a temporary guest party member feels like a tacked on feature, and I found it more annoying that useful. I'm more of a fan of having them as a one-time ability with an adjustable cinematic but with extra cost than standard abilities.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, to be honest, I mostly ignored them when the option came up. I think the battles against the summons were handled really well, but their presence as a mechanic for the player in combat does feel quite tacked on. Almost like it's just there because they knew it was expected.

I suppose one could probably say the same about their inclusion in XV.

 

[kathy202]

“Bend time and space in your favour when the linked materia is used.”

For some reason, when I read that, I thought the materia might be called "Whispers"...

But yeah, I'd love to decrease the chances of interruption especially with the -ga spells.

 

[Rydeen]

Am I the only one that kinda liked summons? They weren't always useful since they were very elemental, but they had high attack power and their finishing blows were solid. They got me out of a couple pinches in the game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As epic as FFXV's summons were in reference to their cinematics and design, i much prefer VII's use because they actually are relevant and useful.

Their respective materia significantly boosts your stats, and said stat boosts reflect the summon's nature and purpose. Ifrit boosts strength and attack power, Shiva boosts speed and magic defense, Fat Chocobo greatly boosts HP and defense.. It all makes sense, so they actually have relevance in equipping.

And I don't know of any other FF game save for FFX and FFVIII, where the summons have mattered so extensively in the main game from beginning to the end. I can't see how they're a tacked on element given their development and usefulness to combat. Several bosses in main and side quests are made infinitely more strategic, manageable and memorable when using summons. Crab Warden, Airbuster, Hell House (summoning is so fucking necessary in Hard Mode), Abzu, Eligor...

...Eligor deserves special mention because in Hard Mode, Eligor is fucking awful, given the fact he casts Reflect not only himself, but the party as well. Meaning, that unless you have Elemental-Ice, there's no other way you're dealing ice damage to it. You can't bounce magic from your party member to the enemy here. However, what you can do is use Shiva and her attacks bypass Reflect. This is how you can bypass strategically dying and risking the battle going on far longer than you want it to.

Then there's Specimen h0512, The Arsenal, Sephiroth, etc etc.. The summons not only hit hard on exit but actually function as a 4th party member, which is clutch. Combined with the fact they can help inflict weakness damage to make stagger easier makes them a tool that's extremely useful and relevant throughout the game.

And those lucky enough to snag the DLC ones also get the ones that can be essentially used anytime. Carbuncle was the most useful by far.

I mean, I think the Remake certainly makes summons one of the most relevant mechanics in the game, far more than it ever did in the original. Aside from 3 summons, they're nothing but dramatic -aga spells.

And the fact they purposefully chose to exclude a Lightning element summon due to how it'd be so broken given the nature of most enemies, makes it appear like they definitely considered game balance when designing them. That was very smart on their part.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Their respective materia significantly boosts your stats ...

I'll give you that this was pretty good about them.

And I don't know of any other FF game save for FFX and FFVIII, where the summons have mattered so extensively in the main game from beginning to the end.

This, though, I don't know wtf it came from. XD

 

[Makoeyes987]

Summons/Eidolons/Espers/etc in most FFs, are usually either functionally high level magic spells, or party members who can be brought in at the cost of 2+ other party members, which is in reality highly inefficient. FFXII and FFXIII for instance lets you fight with your Eidolons... But aside from specific, niche situations, most of the time, it's simply better not to summon and just keep your 2 party members.

Type-0's summons are like that but worst, since you actually have to sacrifice 2 party members. Summoning is frankly worthless in that game.

FFX, and FFVIII have GFs/Aeons function in very specific, integral roles which make them ubiquitous in battle. You're almost never not summoning in those games. Which is why specific bosses (Seymour, Ultimecia) have special attacks that insta-kill summons so you're forced to face them without the help.

FFVII-R straddles the perfect middle ground of having them be highly relevant, but not a primary fixture of battle. They're extremely helpful but you're free to do things in ways that omit them.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with summons in this game as opposed to most other FF games.

The problem is that summons tend to be either underwhelming and unnecessary, or extremely overpowered and broken.

In FFIX, I loved the summons, but honestly never used them because they took for ever, and were significantly weaker than basically and other attack.

Why would I use a massive MP cost, minute long summon, when a simple Firaga does the same for less? It makes the summons feel weak, and I mostly used them to give autoregen some time.

Conversely, in stuff like FFVIII and FFX they were so powerful that I felt like I almost had to use them, because they made everything trivially easy.
Summons felt strong, but took away from the actual difficulty of the game.

Then they tried to change that in XV, and made it so that you really couldn't use them, and honestly, they might as well have not been in the game.

In VII remake though I was always happy to summon, since they didn't cost me any resources. They came in at clutch times specifically which means I often could really use them. And their attacks were non-trivial in my experience, although I think the attacking ones could be a bit stronger, since I almost exclusively used Carbuncle.

If I had to change something, it would be that, I would give them more varied and effective abilities to help the party as a functionally uncontrollable 4th character. Right now, your other team members don't do anything without your help. Summons do, just having Carbuncle cast barrier etc was a real nice perk. I'd like for each summon to do that sort of stuff more to add to the strategic element of them.
I never used their ACTUAL abilities, always had other stuff to use my atb on.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'd contend that IX's eidolons and their associated Add-ons are at least as ubiquitous and relevant throughout a playthrough of that FF as these summons in VIIR.

I'll grant you that these guys are more relevant and better utilized than in XII, XIII, or XV -- but that's not a very difficult peak to climb. =P But to suggest these summon materia matter more extensively here than VI's magicite? Come on now.

FFVIII can make that claim, since the Junction system is basically a modified, expanded version of the magicite system, but I'm not even sure X's aeons can claim more ongoing relevance than the magicite in VI.

I never used their ACTUAL abilities, always had other stuff to use my atb on.

That's usually how I also felt about spending the ATB to summon them. =P

 

[Makoeyes987]

The magicite in VI were extremely important... As stat boosters and tools to teach each character magic. The summons in VI by themselves are hardly useful long term aside from Ragnarok, Quetzalli, and Golem. The early game Espers were essentially -ara and -aga level spells you could only cast once in a battle. There are so many Espers that just became power crept out of relevance, only to be equipped for certain stat boosts on level up or to learn their relevant spells. Lore wise they're important but they just simply aren't useful in terms of gameplay.

FFIX summons are briefly relevant when Garnet first learns to properly summon but even then they cease to be relevant aside from Ark, Madeen, and maybe Bahamut. Odin is awfully inconsistent, and you need to find his sword to make it to where it simply doesn't whiff.

I'd definitely say the FFX Aeons were far more relevant and helpful throughout X. They're powerful clutch allies that most of the time pay for their cost quite well. Yojimbo, Magus Sisters, Anima, are secret Aeons but you get them at times they still hold relevancy. FFX has to fashion specific battles to make you not use them, because of how good they are.

In FFVII-R, I don't see how you would not want to pay the ATB to summon something like Bahamut, Fat Chocobo, or an elemental summon that corresponds to the weakness of the enemy you fight. Bahamut is a stagger master. His Umbral Aura acts as a poison to the enemy if they're near it, and it's laser attack fills the stagger gauge massively. The Umbral Strikes deal massive damage and Bahamut doesn't have as much repositioning lag since it just flies over and wallops the target. The good thing about a lot of summon attacks is they cause enemies to usually recoil and interrupt attacks they may try to do, as well. They hit harder especially when they're the right element. Ifrit makes Abzu a cake walk, Shiva makes Eligor manageable, especially in Hard Mode. Their attacks usually have secondary status effects that also make them useful than just simple normal attacks in the battles they're able to be called. They're hardly superfluous.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The magicite in VI were extremely important... As stat boosters and tools to teach each character magic.

The first thing you brought up in response to the "tacked on" charge was:

"Their respective materia significantly boosts your stats, and said stat boosts reflect the summon's nature and purpose. Ifrit boosts strength and attack power, Shiva boosts speed and magic defense, Fat Chocobo greatly boosts HP and defense.. It all makes sense, so they actually have relevance in equipping."

=P

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that's not all their merit is, regarding gameplay. The summons in FFVII-R don't just function as mere once per battle aga spells, that cost more than said respective magic spell, do they?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Summons in FFIX were... actually fine I thought. In fact... I used Garnet as my main mage because of that... pair her with Amarat for his ability that gave random elemental weaknesses to just about any enemy and it was a good time.