Wrasslin!: Something for the Smarks

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#1
I looked all through the entertainment section here and found no similar threads. Maybe I am the only wrestling fan in attendance and will sit here to the sound of crickets, but only one way to find out.

If there are other wrestling fans here, this is a good place to bitch about bad angles, shitty gimmicks, underutilized talent and so on, or to chat about how awesome something was or just jaw drop when the HSQ goes through the roof. For myself, I don't pay much attention to backstage politics, so won't have much to contribute there beyond common speculations.

Oh and before we get the ball rolling, if you're one of the last few Marks left alive you should gtfu, before you find out wrestling is fake. Oops! Too late.

Ok, to start things off, I have to bitch about some of the non-wrestling shit that gets done in the ring. Specifically, fucking dance offs. Just, fucking why? If a wrestler wants to showcase his dance skills there are plenty of chances for this: during ring entrances, during victory celebrations (unless its a Jobber who never wins), while cutting a promo... why are we replacing whole matches with this tripe?! And to make it worse, the epic retardation on Monday Raw this week didn't even have a payoff. No winner was ever announced, so aside from making two excellent workers look pathetic (and two impressively large but lacking in talent wrestlers as well) what did this accomplish? The crowd seemed indifferent, I hated it, did this entertain more than a handful of people? Ok, /rant. Discuss!
 
#2
Hell I'm an old school WWF fan back in the late Nineties and early 2000's, attitude Era an all :monster:

Ok, to start things off, I have to bitch about some of the non-wrestling shit that gets done in the ring. Specifically, fucking dance offs. Just, fucking why? If a wrestler wants to showcase his dance skills there are plenty of chances for this: during ring entrances, during victory celebrations (unless its a Jobber who never wins), while cutting a promo... why are we replacing whole matches with this tripe?! And to make it worse, the epic retardation on Monday Raw this week didn't even have a payoff. No winner was ever announced, so aside from making two excellent workers look pathetic (and two impressively large but lacking in talent wrestlers as well) what did this accomplish? The crowd seemed indifferent, I hated it, did this entertain more than a handful of people? Ok, /rant. Discuss!
Short answer no lol, I watched Raw this week, as much as I can't stand WWE nowadays, and that dance off shit...was well..shit! there was no need for it, all we want to see is a decent match and great wrestling. But we get that crap. Don't get me wrong, back in the day where I enjoyed wrestling, you got groups like 'TOO COOL' (Rikishi, Scotty Too Hotty and Grand Master Sexy) that had a great dance AFTER they had won their match, which was all retro and cool at the time.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#3
Exactly! Scotty, Rikishi and others from their day (as well as the goddamn bookers) knew that dancing was for after matches, during promos, maybe even as a mid-match taunt to get some heat off the crowd. Don't get me wrong, Khali and Henry are both horrible, clumsy wrestlers who are bound to cripple or kill someone someday (not counting injuries they've ALREADY caused) but shit, anything would have been better than that dance off shit.

But! In my usual habit of arguing with myself I will say that a dance off CAN work to an extent, take Santino Marella's time spent trying to convince Vladimir Kozlav to be his tag partner last year, which involved more than one bizarre competition. Santino is a naturally comical character built out of Italian stereotypes, so he can do stupid shit and make it good. Then you realize big, serious Ivan Drago ripoff influenced Vladimir can, in fact, dance freakishly well, and that got a genuine laugh out of me. So it can be done! But most times, it fucking shouldn't.
 
#4
Yeah I agree, and also, Rikishi used to get people like The Big Show, and The Dudley Boyz to dance with him. And although their characters were nothing like perceived in the ring as usual, the whole fun aspect, plus the trust and support from the crowd Rikishi and gang had developed over time, had made it possible for these somewhat serious characters to actually show some emotion and have fun.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#5
Which is hilarious cause the Big Show himself is so over with the audience these days he can basically do whatever the fuck he wants and get massive heat from it, serious or not. Come out in a Santa suit and read a wrestling themed version of a Twas the Night Before Christmas? Cheers and love. And I find that awesome cause Big Show was under used for years there. Man tells jokes, one-shots big name wrestlers with massive punches, it doesn't matter. A lot like Rikishi and the Dudleyz from back in the day in fact, glad someone still carries the torch that says you don't gotta choose between goofy and serious.
 
#6
Oh yeah, Big Show has normally had that tradition where he has a few years being the serious big-ass mass of force to be taken seriously. But then the odd year where he has done things like you say and also the silly dress up characters and dances with Rikishi...I think he used to be called Showkishi lol.

Anyway, Can I ask you a question?...and It'll be interesting to see your answer...

What do you think of John Cena...Do you like him, or not?
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#7
Cena has his high points and low points. He's the new Hogan in too many ways, he spends 3/4ths of a given match on his ass or his back, then makes a two second comeback for the win. Yes, that's a staple of how a face wrestles but its WAY fucking overdone with him. I like that he keeps telling the bookers to stop giving him the fucking title, let someone else carry the main events for a while while he builds back up with the fans. Shows he knows how the business works. And my god can the man build the HSQ when he wants to, never will I forget that time he managed to lift Edge and the Big Show, one atop the other, into a fireman's carry for his finisher. And he does good work with the restrictions WWE going PG has put on everyone, makes a joke out of it.

All around, he's middling. I certainly don't love the guy, but he has his upsides.

Edit: What's you opinion of the man?
 
#8
Hmm, well being quite old school, I have a more negative effect on him myself. As much as I agree he can certainly work the crowd an all, I more think of him as 'The PG Era', rather than what you say about him working around that fact.

See to me as an oldskooler as I keep on mentioning..sorry :), I am constantly comparing him to wrestlers such as The Rock, or Stone Cold, and lets be honest, that is what WWE are making him into, they are putting Cena into that league of elite, and to me, he looks very weak. No doubt about it, Rock and Austin were simply brilliant wrestlers, but they are trying to make Cena become a crowd favourite, as much as he has won over the crowd, I very much think he is too goody goody (PG) for my liking.

I know I seem a bit negative on him, but I'll admit, he is a great wrestler, and I know how much he has given for the company and how much he respects it, but like I say, atm, I do not accept him for a 'main' wrestler in the company. Like you mentioned, he is a new kind of Hogan, he is like a hero who never gives up and is immortal in certain situations, but that bugs me lol.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#9
This is why I keep wallbanging that they will not grant his request for a face-heel turn. He could be much better than he is, even with the pg restrictions in place (and I agree those are a terrible idea).

I was a fan during the Attitude Era as well, so don't worry about being too old school, I know what you mean. And they most certainly are trying to put Cena in Austin and The Rock's place, if not his shoes. You can see it in Austin passing him the torch (though this torch looked oddly like a beer can) some years ago. They even made a whole feud with Batista out of it. So trust me, you're right.

But really, let the man turn heel and see what he does with it. If he can work the crowd this well as a boyscout babyface, I'm sure he can be every bit the heel by comparison. Though as much love as he gets from the crowd, the bookers may not like it (remember some of the times they tried that on Austin, the fans didn't give two shits and rooted for him anyway).
 
#10
Will he turn heel though? because all this fuss around the Nexus and shit, people thought he would turn heel then, but no, he came back more determined and more of a hero than ever.

I am one for him to turn heel, he needs it, but this PG is really bothering me, there is only so much a heel can say and do in PG. Argh. It kinda messes around with things a bit does PG. I think Cena will stay a good wrestler for a while, because WWE are getting shirt sales and whatnot from him, he is a fan favourite afterall. Hopefully fans will still support him like you say, even if he does turn heel.

And glad to see you were a fan of the attitude era...so much better than today man.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#11
Really he took some babysteps in that direction. He was still smooth babyface in demeanor, but he used some pretty heel tactics for a while. Not enough for me to define him as a tweener, but yeah.

As for the PG shit, I think Orton is a good example. That man is a magnificent bastard, in and out of the ring. The way he moves, wrestles, talks, all just SCREAMS heel. And he's got the punt, where he gets a running start, corner to corner, and punt kicks someone in the side of the head (usually used for people who want to take some time off for some reason). Cause of PG standards they wouldn't allow it FOREVER. Every time Orton gets someone down I start chanting Punt, Punt, Punt right along with the crowd... well they finally let him do it (though it looked wimpy by comparison to punts of old) so perhaps they are realizing they're slipping too much at last. And Orton himself, despite the crowd still loving him for being a bastard, proves a good heel can exist under these restraints (nothing like the time he tried to punt Steph McMahon).

And the Attitude Era was awesome for most of its run, but I gotta say towards the end they started really taking things a bit too far in that direction for the product wrestling is meant to deliver. The PG era is them knee-jerking into going too far the other way. Find a happy medium, maybe a little further towards Attitude than to PG on the sliding scale. That's what I think needs done to accomplish their current goal and at the same time deliver something good consistently.
 
#12
I definitely agree about Ortan, I mean, the Punt was just brutal outside PG, and like you say, he has taken that into PG and made it just as affective. Infact the whole character of Randy Ortan like you say, has moved from pre-PG to PG without much change, if any, at all.

Comparing him to John Cena, I would have to say Ortan made a more successful and non-recognisable transition to PG than Cena ever did.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#13
Some people are better at it than others. I remember when the PG thing was new, watching Taker try to cut a promo was painful, he kept fudging his lines as he tried to be PG enough. Eventually he just stopped talking entirely for a few years, which was odd. Even non-english speakers cut promos in the ring now and then, using interpreters or just pissing off the crowd who don't understand them. But it worked for him, he was a silent, deadly force from then on, and the next time he took up a mic he seemed to have gotten the hang of it in the meantime.

Edge is another good example of someone who made an excellent transition from attitude to pg without changing overmuch in my opinion. Sure he could never do something like his sex celebration in the ring bit, but he is still Edge through and through.
 
#14
Eventually he just stopped talking entirely for a few years, which was odd.
That was hilarious.

Edge is another good example of someone who made an excellent transition from attitude to pg without changing overmuch in my opinion. but he is still Edge through and through.
Aye, I very much agree, you still hear that chant of masculinity as his music hits, Edge along with Randy, I'm I'm sure others if I have time to think, really did master the Non-PG to PG transition.

Sure he could never do something like his sex celebration in the ring bit
Ah yes, good old Edge, and the sex celebration...lol.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#15
Oh yes, that sex celebration thing was a meme before memes existed in their present form. Shit this reminds me I have an Edge macro I been waiting for a chance to use. But yeah, Undertaker losing his ability to keep lines straight and just saying fuck it was very amusing. Still, as far as talky bits go he'll never top "Say 'what' again if you like to have sex with your sister?" That's a classic.

Ok, something I am proud of WWE for, having Orton drop the belt to the Miz and not immediately giving it right back. Orton is awesome but he will always be at his best as a crazed madman crushing all that stands between him and a title, as opposed to punting all who try to take it from him. The Miz... his gimmick kinda irks me, but he works it good. I feel genuine disgust when he's on screen, which is the point of a heel acting that way. And his in-ring performances are top notch. I love his seated-on-the-rope running clothesline in the corner in particular, that shit has style and it takes a talented wrestler to not go flying right over the middle rope and hang himself on the top.

So what kind of fan were/are you? I've seen all kinds of Smarts and Smarks over the years. For myself, I was a suspension of disbelief type during the Attitude Era, in that I knew shit was fake but while it was happening I'd sorta forget that and respond accordingly. Now, I'm more a pure Smark most of the time, and always the one to turn to my fellow viewers and tell them "See that? That shit wasn't supposed to happen, look how freaked the ref is" and other sage comments where appropriate. Part of it comes from my own wrestling experience from back in college, I know how this shit works now.

Edit: Fixed some bad typos. Can barely feel my fingertips.
 
#16
The attitude era is "old school"? Wow do I feel old. I watched when Guys like Macho Man and Hulk Hogan could still move. I stopped watching seriously some time before Ted Turner sold WCW.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#17
There is old school from before Attitude of course. I started with WCW myself, pre-NWO even though I was a flat out Mark back then of course. I've watched more than a few really good matches from back in NWA days even, though those were naturally after the fact. Young Ric Flair seems weird compared to what I grew up with, but shit was still awesome.

Used to have a speech I gave to my friends about how you can track the progression of wrestling by people's finishers. Back in the day it was just a regular move that you claimed to do REALLY fucking well, like Flair's figure four, Hogan's leg drop, Macho's Flying Elbow, etc. Nowadays you've gotta have something more flashy and complex looking with a badass name related to your gimmick. But I remember Ven, I remember.
 
#18
The Miz... his gimmick kinda irks me, but he works it good. I feel genuine disgust when he's on screen, which is the point of a heel acting that way. And his in-ring performances are top notch.
Yeah, Miz pisses me off for two reasons, the first being the fact that he is young and arrogant and thinks that he is the best ever of all wrestlers ever :shifty: (But like you say, this is the beauty of his heel character). And second, that although I like the dude and have seen him as a serious potential talent for future WWE years to come, I still feel that he does not deserve to be winning the WWE championship as of yet. To put it simply, I still look at him as a mediocre wrestler, not a main eventer.

So what kind of fan were/are you? I've seen all kinds of Smarts and Smarks over the years. For myself, I was a suspension of disbelief type during the Attitude Era, in that I knew shit was fake but while it was happening I'd sorta forget that and respond accordingly. Now, I'm more a pure Smark most of the time, and always the one to turn to my fellow viewers and tell them "See that?
I'm the same, I don't know whether this is me growing up and growing out of it, or rather the fact that I'm a bit bored and not as supportive towards todays wrestlers and storylines than I used to be with the old classics. I think its more of the latter, the strange thing is, I will still watch WWE when I can, knowing that its never going to be as good to watch.

I suppose I'm still holding onto the attitude era storylines and post PG, just hoping they will revert back :monster:
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#19
If Vince thinks he can finally do his incest angle, they will definitely revert and revert hard. Dunno why he has such a hard on for that idea but :monster:

Ok, Smackdown just finished 45 minutes ago and I got another complaint. Poor utilization of talent, namely the Big Show. They let him have one decent feud with CM Punk last year, which was naturally one sided as all hell, and since they've once more got him doing the job, sacrificing his extreme popularity to put over new guys like Wade Barrett and his "not at all Nexus 3.0" group The Corre. And this annoys the fuck out of me. Big Show, as mentioned earlier in this thread, gets heat like a blast furnace wherever he goes. He's in better shape, has fine tuned his in-ring skills, and rocks the fuck out of the mic. So where is Show's glory? Hell last time they let him have a championship it was Tag Team (to be fair, UNIFIED Tag Titles but still) and he played the part of "big dumb guy who wins matches for Jericho/Miz" the entire run. I was so sure he'd be back to awesome when he got fed up with that and knocked his ex-partners out cold, and it seemed I was right... and now he's getting eliminated from the Royal Rumble by just one guy?! This is not how Big Show works!

And responding to your feelings on The Miz, I think that the sense that he isn't ready for the championship picture is what makes his character. I mean his whole premise is built around it, he's not just the stereotypical young guy who thinks he is God's gift to wrestling. His storyline for acquiring the belt is all based around how he in no way deserves the belt. Now to be fair, I have a whole separate beef with how the Money in the Bank cash-ins on weak/injured champions are treated as heel moves, when that's the whole fucking point of Money in the Bank, but that is how its used. So your feelings are intentionally being invoked by the bookers to get the Smarks worked up and disgusted, and fuck if it isn't working.

Now on the other end of the spectrum is Dolph Ziggler from Smackdown. Exact same character flaw of "young punk who is way arrogant and blah blah blah" (seems they forgot the seven year rule recently) except he is also doing a carbon copy of Edge's "get in bed with Vickie Guerrero and use her authority shamelessly" gimmick he had a few years back. Against Edge. It totally lacks the heat Miz draws for me, without Edge to keep the angle interesting it'd put me to sleep every Friday. Ziggler and Vickie are a textbook example of how to poorly execute a successful angle (also too early, again they forget the seven year rule).
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#20
So, nothing of real importance happened this Monday on Raw, but I don't want this thread to fade into obscurity just yet. So, let's talk about Jerry "The King" Lawler for a few. Specifically, the fact that he is currently the number one contender for the WWE Championship, and thus main eventing at Elimination Chamber.

Now, I am personally rather happy with this. Sure, the man is 61 years old, but he is in better shape at this point in time than Ric Flair, who still wrestles on TNA despite being the same age. And seeing him in the ring, you can tell he is very oldschool but its actually nice to see an oldschool style for a change of pace now and then. He can still do his moves well for the most part and he sells everything beautifully. So while its an odd choice of booking, I see potential in it for at least a brief storyline.

That is, if there is any payoff to this series of events. There was a goodly deal of buildup towards the present situation, lasting over the last several months at least. My only worry is that the whole thing will be used just to further enhance Miz's heel character, to the detriment of the angle itself. Though even if that happens it could still be used well, at least Vince Russo isn't here to turn the whole thing into a setup where King turns heel for no real reason and lays down in the ring as a "shocking swerve."

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the current title situation, anyone else have something to share?
 
#21
Lol just about to make a comment on previous post..

Ok, Smackdown just finished 45 minutes ago and I got another complaint. Poor utilization of talent, namely the Big Show. They let him have one decent feud with CM Punk last year, which was naturally one sided as all hell, and since they've once more got him doing the job, sacrificing his extreme popularity to put over new guys like Wade Barrett and his "not at all Nexus 3.0" group The Corre. And this annoys the fuck out of me. Big Show, as mentioned earlier in this thread, gets heat like a blast furnace wherever he goes. He's in better shape, has fine tuned his in-ring skills, and rocks the fuck out of the mic. So where is Show's glory? Hell last time they let him have a championship it was Tag Team (to be fair, UNIFIED Tag Titles but still) and he played the part of "big dumb guy who wins matches for Jericho/Miz" the entire run.
Yeah agreeed, if anything, Big Show has improved most aspects of his wrestling skills over the past few years, and has been rewarded with nothing apart from that one tag title. I myself do not like that one punch move he does, I think its a little cheap, but this is nitpicking :monster:. But I can easily compare Big Show to Kane throughout the past years, they have both been great wrestlers in the past and improved over the years, but have both been treated like crap, Kane FINALLY got a title, but now seems back to the old jobber Kane unfortunately.

... and now he's getting eliminated from the Royal Rumble by just one guy?! This is not how Big Show works!
I was really angry when that happened, past royal rumbles, Big Show needed whole groups of main event wrestlers to eliminate him, again, this is an example of him being jobbed over to new wrestlers, its a shame.

Ziggler and Vickie are a textbook example of how to poorly execute a successful angle
I find myself unable to take them seriously.


And I suppose The Miz's character has been used quite effectively from they way you expained it. But I like to look at wrestlers (even heels) to be worthy of earning a belt fairly. I can guarantee that when Miz finally loses the belt, he will remain a top flight wrestler, and will go onto win more belts all of a sudden. And this is an example of a sudden 'jump' WWE are taking with certain wrestlers, as much as they seem good in-ring, I still cannot accept the character for who he is suddenly competing with...It'll be Miz and Undertaker soon...



So, nothing of real importance happened this Monday on Raw, but I don't want this thread to fade into obscurity just yet. So, let's talk about Jerry "The King" Lawler for a few. Specifically, the fact that he is currently the number one contender for the WWE Championship, and thus main eventing at Elimination Chamber.
This is a little weird the fact that King is going for the title both on past Raw and at Elimination Chamber, I think It shows that WWE are a little desperate for ideas atm. But having said that, I agree with what you said, King is still a good wrestler, despite his age. I really hope that they don't use this to make Miz more hated, King imo has got to win and go to Wrestlemania, otherwise it will come across as a stupid and desperate storyline.

Actually, having thought about it, I think King will lose, because Michael Cole will once again cost him, and then at Wrestlemania, hopefully King vs Cole lol.
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#22
I fully agree with most everything you've said. Miz is definitely not ready for the ultra-big leagues with folks like Taker. His whole schtick at the moment is that he hasn't had a fair and just title match to date, I am hoping the end of his title run comes as a "the law is laid down, do it all by yourself or lose the title" type angle. And I hope it happens at Elimination Chamber. Beyond the extreme loss of credibility they'd face with using King's current position poorly, I just flat want to see Jerry Lawler have his Wrestlemania moment.

A King vs. Cole beatdown would also be satisfying, but with Cole apparently the GM's best buddy/lapdog I can't see how it would work out in storyline terms. I almost worry King might be getting ready to retire from commentating, and this will go down just as you described, but with King getting "fired" when he hits Cole for costing him the belt.

Though now that I think of it, with the return of Mr. McMahon, a "GM pissed off the boss, I wanna see King whale on Cole" angle is entirely possible.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#23
Short post will be short: Smackdown just went off, one of the worst finishes in recent memory. I feel dumber just for having watched this.

Also, Michael Cole is annoying me so much, in a very non-story immersive way, that it almost makes me want to stop watching at times. At least other heel commentators let the face commentator fucking talk once in a while. Gah.
 
#24
Short post will be short: Smackdown just went off, one of the worst finishes in recent memory. I feel dumber just for having watched this.
Jeez, I never watch smackdown, I only tend to watch Raw on Monday's. But prehaps I should because the last time I watched Smackdown, it was like pure highflying action. Mind you, that was a long while back lol.

Also, Michael Cole is annoying me so much, in a very non-story immersive way, that it almost makes me want to stop watching at times. At least other heel commentators let the face commentator fucking talk once in a while. Gah.
I hate Michael Cole, don't get me wrong, I really used to think about 8 years ago he was a really good announcer, along with King (the old King that used to tell him to shut up :monster:). But now, this GM suck-up, now he has turned heel, I agree with you, he just never stops talking and makes himself sound stupid. Almost to the point I feel kinda embarrassed, wishing him to stop!

I liked it when JBL used to be with him and he used to have a right go at Cole, insulting him, that was classic. But now..meh it seems like Cole just thinks he is the best commentator ever, and he is immortal lol.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
#25
The sad thing is, that is clearly what Cole is trying for. The feelings you described, they are exactly like mine. The problem is that he is doing it too damn well. He is too convincing as an arrogant, brown-nosing heel wrestler, flip-flopping on if something is fair and just if Miz or Vickie Guerrero does it as opposed to anyone he is opposed to. He does it so well that it genuinely makes me angry with him, and that makes me not want to listen to him. And this would be excellent, IF he shut up for ten seconds to let folks like King say anything to balance it out. Remember back in the day when King was the semi-heel wrestler to good ol' JR? How there would be times he shut up about how heel tactics are awesome and so on and let JR talk from the face side of things? Not only was King just better at keeping it at a level the audience enjoyed, it was more balanced back then. The way it bloody well should be now.

Also, I miss JBL on color commentary. Man was much more gifted as a commentator than he ever was in the ring. And unlike a lot of wrestlers turned commentator, he kept his original persona perfectly, right down to remembering to shudder in fear and walk as far away from the table as his headset would allow anytime the Undertaker got out of the ring (always commenting that the last time he was that close to Taker he wound up with 30+ stitches in his head). JBL was great at the announce table.

While we're bitching about announcers, anyone care to tell me why we replaced Matt Stryker, who was an excellent Tweener commentator (in that he was both friendly and informative, while still loving a good heel and their tactics) with fucking Booker T of all people? Fuck my love of wrestling and my hatred of idiocy do not coexist like they used to...
 
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