Wutai War
- Thread starter waw
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
If Wutai has no mako, why fight a war with them? My understanding is that the causus belli was Wutai's refusal to let Shinra build reactors in their territory.
waw
Pro Adventurer
Rightly, I specifically thought it was over building a reactor at the Da Chao mountain, or maybe that was the original reason that was eventually scrapped. Regardless, it seemed to be over the rights to build a mako reactor, which is really the most logical reason Shirna would do most of the things we've seen.
In the Remake Ultimania thread we've been discussing about the reasons Ft. Condor Reactor was built, used, and turned into a rebel fort. None of these ideas really involved the people there paying for a Reactor and Remake Shinra isn't really about just bringing the world into a modern age of energy. And as Shinra seemed to win the war:
1. Why didn't they build in Wutai?
2. Re: Wutai references in Remake.... just... what's left to do there really?
My take away from Remake is the Wutai War actually ended with a sort of treaty/draw. I can't figure out, however, what Wutai had that could bring Shinra to the treaty table, given that, at that time, they had the likes of Seph, Zack, Angeal, (Genesis, though they didn't know) etc.
In the Remake Ultimania thread we've been discussing about the reasons Ft. Condor Reactor was built, used, and turned into a rebel fort. None of these ideas really involved the people there paying for a Reactor and Remake Shinra isn't really about just bringing the world into a modern age of energy. And as Shinra seemed to win the war:
1. Why didn't they build in Wutai?
2. Re: Wutai references in Remake.... just... what's left to do there really?
My take away from Remake is the Wutai War actually ended with a sort of treaty/draw. I can't figure out, however, what Wutai had that could bring Shinra to the treaty table, given that, at that time, they had the likes of Seph, Zack, Angeal, (Genesis, though they didn't know) etc.
FFShinra
Sharp Shinra Shill
Wutai got Ninjas yo.
More seriously though, it's always been head canon for me that the Wutai Army was generally better trained and more effective, and Shinra only won because of SOLDIER units and industrial capability. It was this war after all that gave Shinra it's power as a pseudo-government. Given how few SOLDIERS there are in the first place, Shinra probably got stretched thin just keeping order (after all, Sephiroth and Zack's mission to Nibelheim was part of a larger campaign of putting down resistance to the company) in what they had.
The remake implies Wutai did better for itself than was implied in the OG. From a Doylist perspective, I wonder if they are no longer using Wutai as a stand in for Japan itself. Given that Shinra controlled territories were sort of meant as a send up of the US, maybe Wutai is now meant to be China.
More seriously though, it's always been head canon for me that the Wutai Army was generally better trained and more effective, and Shinra only won because of SOLDIER units and industrial capability. It was this war after all that gave Shinra it's power as a pseudo-government. Given how few SOLDIERS there are in the first place, Shinra probably got stretched thin just keeping order (after all, Sephiroth and Zack's mission to Nibelheim was part of a larger campaign of putting down resistance to the company) in what they had.
The remake implies Wutai did better for itself than was implied in the OG. From a Doylist perspective, I wonder if they are no longer using Wutai as a stand in for Japan itself. Given that Shinra controlled territories were sort of meant as a send up of the US, maybe Wutai is now meant to be China.
waw
Pro Adventurer
Thanks, it's a worthy take.
Wutai seems to be able to somehow resist folks like Sephiroth. Not to say they beat him, but if they're still standing after the war that says a lot.
I figured the government-like global power that Shinra has came largely before the Wutai War and that Wutai was the last traditional government left. I could be wrong and probably am.
Given the nature of the weapons in Crisis Core, there seems to be competitors in arms construction to Shinra.... All sorts of loose ends.
Wutai seems to be able to somehow resist folks like Sephiroth. Not to say they beat him, but if they're still standing after the war that says a lot.
I figured the government-like global power that Shinra has came largely before the Wutai War and that Wutai was the last traditional government left. I could be wrong and probably am.
Given the nature of the weapons in Crisis Core, there seems to be competitors in arms construction to Shinra.... All sorts of loose ends.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
TBH The whole history surrounding Shinra and Wutai is pretty sketchy. It wasn't really important to the story SE wanted to tell. "Here's an evil energy corporation! It's the government of the entire world! How did it get there? No idea! Um - weapons manufacture, something something, war with somebody, something something... Yeah everybody's just forgotten and they don't care anyway, did we tell you mako energy makes their lives really comfortable now? Plus, human biological weapons!!!"
waw
Pro Adventurer
I feel like Costa del Sol and Goldsaucer are far more successful and probably are putting Wutai out of business.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I can't off the top of my head think of any examples from history where one side had the better trained and more effective army, but the other side won due to superweapons and and being more industrialised. Historically, the industrialised countries also had the better trained, more effective armies.
Whatever happens, we have got
Mako weapons, and they have not.
Wutai is a seriously underbuilt location, and I'm sure they will rectify that in the Remake. It has so much potential!
Whatever happens, we have got
Mako weapons, and they have not.
Wutai is a seriously underbuilt location, and I'm sure they will rectify that in the Remake. It has so much potential!
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
Vietnam?
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I don't think the Vietnamese army was better trained and more effective than the US army, but maybe it was. I don't know a lot about the Vietnam War. Terrain has a lot to do with it. Places like Afghanistan are challenging to campaign in by conventional and even by modern warfare methods, which is why the Taliban, which is not better trained, nor more effective, nor better equipped than the US army, has been impossible to root out. The south of Wutai is very mountainous, so if I were writing the story of the Wutai war, I'd put both the mako and the centre of resistance there.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I mean, that's sorta how it happened in the OG too.
Wutai's still standing. They haven't been completely razed to the ground and replaced with actors, set-pieces and Sephiroth Copies wandering the perimeter.
Wutai kept a vestige of it's independence and local rule while having to bow to Shinra. That's "treaty." They weren't mercilessly slaughtered and dominated with an occupying force.
The whole thing about why a Mako Reactor wasn't put on Wutai territory speaks to this. Shinra eventually made the cost-benefit analysis that putting a Mako Reactor in Wutai Territory just wasn't worth the trouble. They did what they intended to do. Crush dissent. Yeah, they aren't gonna have another reactor sucking up mako from there, but they don't need it. What they need is uncontested control of the world, and they achieved that with Wutai's surrender.
Wutai's still standing. They haven't been completely razed to the ground and replaced with actors, set-pieces and Sephiroth Copies wandering the perimeter.
Wutai kept a vestige of it's independence and local rule while having to bow to Shinra. That's "treaty." They weren't mercilessly slaughtered and dominated with an occupying force.
The whole thing about why a Mako Reactor wasn't put on Wutai territory speaks to this. Shinra eventually made the cost-benefit analysis that putting a Mako Reactor in Wutai Territory just wasn't worth the trouble. They did what they intended to do. Crush dissent. Yeah, they aren't gonna have another reactor sucking up mako from there, but they don't need it. What they need is uncontested control of the world, and they achieved that with Wutai's surrender.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
This is exactly what happened in Crisis Core. The issue was getting Wutai to make the treaty in the first place... and even after that, they had spies in Shinra afterwards and the likes of the Crescent Unit taking all kinds of terrorist action against ShinRa afterwards. So there seems to be some kind of disconnect between what Wutai's offical agreement with Shinra is and what Wutai's army is actually doing...
It wasn't Wutai that brought Shinra to the treaty table, it was Shinra that brought Wutai to the treaty table. It should also be mentioned that while their are multiple SOLDIER 1st Classes, they can't be everywhere at once.
Incidentally, Wutai had some type of non-human army members of their own that are specificly called "anti-SOLDIER weapons". They're the bosses of Fort Tamblin, the last hold-out to be taken by Shinra in the Wutai War and show up again in several of the missions Zack does to deal with the rest of the Wutai War that is still... ongoing even after the treaty has been finalized. We also see the Five Gods of Wutai in the Pagoda in the OG doing... something... that turns them into various monsters and then back again. So... Shinra isn't exactly the only one doing some weird stuff with their fighters...
It's also worth bringing up what God actually says to Yuffie in the OG, since it makes it sound like turning Wutai into a resort town was... his idea... almost. I don't know if they'll keep this reasoning in the Remake going forward, but it is worth considering.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Godo isn't entirely wrong, though.
waw
Pro Adventurer
So Godo seems to be the one to call the final shot that Wutai surrenders (in OG). He agrees to terms that transforms Wutai into a "tourist trap" and hides Wutaian strength.
I'm still a bit puzzled, something doesn't fit right. What would make Shinra want to call off the war? Especially if the President wants war again!
Sure they've "beaten" Wutai. Okay. But the military and Wusheng are still out there. (We know the Engetsu are incredibly dangerous and continue to harass Shinra for years).
I can't help but wonder about Shinra's agreeing to the terms, if it wasn't something like Rufus undercutting his dad. I think he was made VP shortly before the end of the war. This is pure speculation, but I don't see the President ending the war for any reason other than he wanted to unless someone else ends it for him.
Knowing what we do about Avalanche, Rufus, and their first base in Wutai, maybe there's an explanation there. Either that, or the Genesis dissertion (and possible loss of other SOLDIERs during the war) actually threatened Shinra's prowess globally and they needed to end it. My problem with this is some thought of Wutai being stand toe to toe with SOLDIER. It's one thing to see monsters that threaten Zack, but I never wrapped my head around them threatening Sephiroth. I suppose I just put Sephiroth in an ungodly power tier that he hadn't (yet) reached. I mean, if we take AC as example, Yuffie and other ordinary humans keep up with Cloud pretty well if it's any indication of SOLDIER power.
The Wutaian forces at Ft. Tamblin were controlling monsters (and possibly became monsters?) This somewhat tracks with what we see the Wusheng do. I wonder how far this goes.
(I really hope to see so much more of Wutai!)
I'm still a bit puzzled, something doesn't fit right. What would make Shinra want to call off the war? Especially if the President wants war again!
Sure they've "beaten" Wutai. Okay. But the military and Wusheng are still out there. (We know the Engetsu are incredibly dangerous and continue to harass Shinra for years).
I can't help but wonder about Shinra's agreeing to the terms, if it wasn't something like Rufus undercutting his dad. I think he was made VP shortly before the end of the war. This is pure speculation, but I don't see the President ending the war for any reason other than he wanted to unless someone else ends it for him.
Knowing what we do about Avalanche, Rufus, and their first base in Wutai, maybe there's an explanation there. Either that, or the Genesis dissertion (and possible loss of other SOLDIERs during the war) actually threatened Shinra's prowess globally and they needed to end it. My problem with this is some thought of Wutai being stand toe to toe with SOLDIER. It's one thing to see monsters that threaten Zack, but I never wrapped my head around them threatening Sephiroth. I suppose I just put Sephiroth in an ungodly power tier that he hadn't (yet) reached. I mean, if we take AC as example, Yuffie and other ordinary humans keep up with Cloud pretty well if it's any indication of SOLDIER power.
The Wutaian forces at Ft. Tamblin were controlling monsters (and possibly became monsters?) This somewhat tracks with what we see the Wusheng do. I wonder how far this goes.
(I really hope to see so much more of Wutai!)
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Shinra is pragmatic. If you don't push him, he can be reasonable.
Push him and he'll drop a city plate on you.
Make a mess, and he'll sanitize an entire town to keep his image clean.
But he's ultimately a capitalist with ambition of ruling the world with a good public image. There's no reason to commit genocide on Wutai and prolong something that messy and violent that can roil a good thing. What would be the point in massacring a tourist spot? Because if he wanted to, he could. Sephiroth never just went to town on Wutai and massacred it. He could easily slaughter everything with two legs and not break a sweat but they never went that far.
If Shinra can be efficient and reasonable and rule with no fuss, they'll take it. But if they can't... Well..
Push him and he'll drop a city plate on you.
Make a mess, and he'll sanitize an entire town to keep his image clean.
But he's ultimately a capitalist with ambition of ruling the world with a good public image. There's no reason to commit genocide on Wutai and prolong something that messy and violent that can roil a good thing. What would be the point in massacring a tourist spot? Because if he wanted to, he could. Sephiroth never just went to town on Wutai and massacred it. He could easily slaughter everything with two legs and not break a sweat but they never went that far.
If Shinra can be efficient and reasonable and rule with no fuss, they'll take it. But if they can't... Well..
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
The thing with Shinra is that it's not a "one solution to every problem" company. And part of that means making it obvious to people that Shinra doesn't just default to "burn everything to the ground" as the first solution to every problem. Sure, that works as a "worst case scenario" but usually in the context of "take this other option that puts you under our control but doesn't end with everyone on your side dead".
I don't know about Remake... but we never see people being really racist towards Wutai. Shinra (and the people living under Shinra rule) don't seem to really hate them or anything. Instead we see a bar in Wutai putting up advertisement about it all over the world. So someone in Wutai has an add campaign with Shinra's approval at the very least.
It's also worth pointing out that since Shinra is a company (at least in theory), they need people to be alive to buy their products. So... Wutai as a tourist trap accomplishes that way better than Wuati as a decimated landscape with no people living in it. It's kinda hard to rule the world when there's no one live in the world to rule. And Shinra (or certain directors in Shinra) at least havn't fallen into that trap the way oh... Sephrioth... has...
I don't know about Remake... but we never see people being really racist towards Wutai. Shinra (and the people living under Shinra rule) don't seem to really hate them or anything. Instead we see a bar in Wutai putting up advertisement about it all over the world. So someone in Wutai has an add campaign with Shinra's approval at the very least.
It's also worth pointing out that since Shinra is a company (at least in theory), they need people to be alive to buy their products. So... Wutai as a tourist trap accomplishes that way better than Wuati as a decimated landscape with no people living in it. It's kinda hard to rule the world when there's no one live in the world to rule. And Shinra (or certain directors in Shinra) at least havn't fallen into that trap the way oh... Sephrioth... has...
FFShinra
Sharp Shinra Shill
In the Remake they (common people not the Shinra execs) seem to fear Wutai (and the one granny in Sector 7 seeks to mow them down) more than anything else. The way Shinra and Heidegger discuss Wutai doesn't strike me as an enemy on the ropes or defeated, but something closer to (if not exactly as) a peer rival. Cloud and Barret's small conversation in Sector 0 outright says that it is a ceasefire not a peace treaty. And the way Cloud talks about it implies its not exactly stable.
The company didn't have to try that hard to convince the public that Avalanche was a Wutai puppet entity. Makes me think Wutai would actually try something akin to that and maybe, in the Remake verse, they did with the other Avalanche.
Also, in terms of history, there are plenty of instances where the less industrialized enemy had the training advantage. It usually occurred when the more high tech enemy relied too much on the tech and not enough on people. Vietnam is actually a good example, but a more modern one (and one that more specifically works for Wutai) would be what's happening in Yemen right now with the Houthi fighters able to take on and push back the Saudis, despite the latter having money and better toys.
I am very much looking forward to how they develop this current Cold War and also the details of the original conflict. It already seems to have strayed from the OG's WWII analogy.
The company didn't have to try that hard to convince the public that Avalanche was a Wutai puppet entity. Makes me think Wutai would actually try something akin to that and maybe, in the Remake verse, they did with the other Avalanche.
Also, in terms of history, there are plenty of instances where the less industrialized enemy had the training advantage. It usually occurred when the more high tech enemy relied too much on the tech and not enough on people. Vietnam is actually a good example, but a more modern one (and one that more specifically works for Wutai) would be what's happening in Yemen right now with the Houthi fighters able to take on and push back the Saudis, despite the latter having money and better toys.
I am very much looking forward to how they develop this current Cold War and also the details of the original conflict. It already seems to have strayed from the OG's WWII analogy.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I think when they made the OG they didn't give a whole lot of thought to developing the story of the Wutai War in any detail. Wutai was just an optional location, and its defeat in the war was primarily important as motivation for Yuffie. Thanks to the huge success of the OG, they went on to write the Compilation and the Wutai War grew in importance. Now it's no longer merely the backstory to an an optional sidequest, but a central pillar of FFVII's worldbuilding. I predict we will see a hugely expanded Wutai in subsequent installments.
@FFShinra - Yes - like the Vietnamese, the Taliban and the Houthis, the people of Wutai had the home ground advantage. That makes a big difference. According to this article in Haaretz, the Saudi army are indeed under-trained and overly reliant on US military technology. And the terrain in Yemen is well suited to guerilla warfare.
One way things could have played out is like this: As Shinra's sphere of influence expanded westward, it began to pose a challenge to Wutai's sphere of influence. Maybe Wutai was in an expansionist stage and trying to conquer territory in the Middle Continent, or maybe it was already a declining power trying to hold on to its existing empire. The local people then invited Shinra in to fight their battle for them.
But who knows? SE will decide for themselves on the backstory they prefer.
@FFShinra - Yes - like the Vietnamese, the Taliban and the Houthis, the people of Wutai had the home ground advantage. That makes a big difference. According to this article in Haaretz, the Saudi army are indeed under-trained and overly reliant on US military technology. And the terrain in Yemen is well suited to guerilla warfare.
One way things could have played out is like this: As Shinra's sphere of influence expanded westward, it began to pose a challenge to Wutai's sphere of influence. Maybe Wutai was in an expansionist stage and trying to conquer territory in the Middle Continent, or maybe it was already a declining power trying to hold on to its existing empire. The local people then invited Shinra in to fight their battle for them.
But who knows? SE will decide for themselves on the backstory they prefer.
waw
Pro Adventurer
I'm lukewarm on chalking things up to "not that well developed" sort of explanations. It's often the case but less fulfilling from a fandom perspective. But the Wutai War is central in a lot more ways. It is the big background for why and how Sephiroth is famous and feared. The "War" was a major background element through many FFVII stages of development, too. And plays into numerous backstories beyond Yuffie.
That said, with Wutai and Shinra having signed a ceasefire, it raises questions that weren't there in the original:
1. In BC, Turks assault an Avalanche HQ in Wutai iirc. What are the nuances involved with a covert op in a foreign country?
2. What sort of military power is Wutai holding onto that Shinra hasn't openly invaded again? (Why is Prez holding back, popular support?)
3. How will a storyline like the Turks vacay'ing in Wutai be handled when they're still technically at war?
I'm curious, too, how the Wutai can do things like transform into monsters. I'm not sure if it's materia based or real-Ancient-like-Magic based. The nature of their powers remain elusive to me.
That said, with Wutai and Shinra having signed a ceasefire, it raises questions that weren't there in the original:
1. In BC, Turks assault an Avalanche HQ in Wutai iirc. What are the nuances involved with a covert op in a foreign country?
2. What sort of military power is Wutai holding onto that Shinra hasn't openly invaded again? (Why is Prez holding back, popular support?)
3. How will a storyline like the Turks vacay'ing in Wutai be handled when they're still technically at war?
I'm curious, too, how the Wutai can do things like transform into monsters. I'm not sure if it's materia based or real-Ancient-like-Magic based. The nature of their powers remain elusive to me.
FFShinra
Sharp Shinra Shill
I think the Turks vacationing will be cut outright and handled a completely different way, if they even still do the Turks + Corneo plot. Part of me thinks with Leslie now in the picture, he's gonna be the one who drops the Don off of Da Chao. Assuming the scenario isn't completely changed and they have him kill Corneo a different way.
Your second point, I've been wondering about intensely since playing the remake. Will be very curious how they handle it. Perhaps the nature powers will figure into this as well. An Army of Beastmasters (or at least a special forces of beastmasters) would be intriguing, though I'd wonder how they'd justify Yuffie not having this power....or they give her such a power to differentiate her from the other playable characters. Hmm....
And the war wasn't developed quite as deeply as other bits, but as it relates to Wutai in the present, the OG treats it very obviously like post-war Japan. But that does not jive with how it's being presented now, which is why I think its gonna be more like China (of the Red Menace stereotype variety a la the 1960s and I guess nowadays too) this go around.
As to the war itself, my headcanon always assumed the vast majority of the campaign was a contest between the east (Midgar) and west (Wutai) continents over the land and resources of the central continent (and why the Nibelheim mission was considered part of the cleanup operations against anti-Shinra resistance). And certainly of the three, the central continent seems to be the most societally diverse, so I imagine it was quite the chessboard. Wutai's strength in that case, may have been in knowing the terrain better than Shinra, and/or it may have been in being the better political actor and having better allies/vassals (which, for a real life comparison, would be why the UAE does a better job in Yemen than the Saudis do). Makes me excited how the tension of possible reignition of the war might be handled once the characters arrive in that continent if the developers go that route. May also play into more story in Junon, being the fortress city that it is.
Your second point, I've been wondering about intensely since playing the remake. Will be very curious how they handle it. Perhaps the nature powers will figure into this as well. An Army of Beastmasters (or at least a special forces of beastmasters) would be intriguing, though I'd wonder how they'd justify Yuffie not having this power....or they give her such a power to differentiate her from the other playable characters. Hmm....
And the war wasn't developed quite as deeply as other bits, but as it relates to Wutai in the present, the OG treats it very obviously like post-war Japan. But that does not jive with how it's being presented now, which is why I think its gonna be more like China (of the Red Menace stereotype variety a la the 1960s and I guess nowadays too) this go around.
As to the war itself, my headcanon always assumed the vast majority of the campaign was a contest between the east (Midgar) and west (Wutai) continents over the land and resources of the central continent (and why the Nibelheim mission was considered part of the cleanup operations against anti-Shinra resistance). And certainly of the three, the central continent seems to be the most societally diverse, so I imagine it was quite the chessboard. Wutai's strength in that case, may have been in knowing the terrain better than Shinra, and/or it may have been in being the better political actor and having better allies/vassals (which, for a real life comparison, would be why the UAE does a better job in Yemen than the Saudis do). Makes me excited how the tension of possible reignition of the war might be handled once the characters arrive in that continent if the developers go that route. May also play into more story in Junon, being the fortress city that it is.
waw
Pro Adventurer
This all makes a lot of sense. While the OG didn't hit on it much, we seem to be seeing complete clashes of social structures. Wutai is religious, Shinra seems quite secular. Wutai has some sort of civil government. Shinra seems to have developed territories into more or less anarcho-libertarian societies with rampant capitalism/private sector ownership of all. Wutai seems to have a nature reverence and Shinra is obsessed with industrial domination. I would suspect differences even in pop culture and entertainment (look at Wutai vs. the Goldsaucer, for example).
I expect chocobo are used more in Wutai for traditional movement than the industrialized cars and trains in the east.
Because of that, i always suspected that Shinra had to go against Wutai on some level because of the "government-less" world.
I expect chocobo are used more in Wutai for traditional movement than the industrialized cars and trains in the east.
Because of that, i always suspected that Shinra had to go against Wutai on some level because of the "government-less" world.