xenosaga series

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i am replaying these and wanted a thread to talk about them

i have got three minigames passports (out of 4?) and i have to say, i have no recollection of these at all. i don't know if i just didn't understand how to play them back then (since you have to go specific save points, then open the menu and go to the key items and select the passport item, which is a pretty convoluted way to play a minigame), or if i didn't get the items on my original playthrough, or i have just completely forgotten about it over the years

i've only played the drilling minigame and i suck at it
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
The Armored Core-y mech game was neat, but the card game is genuinely good, haha.

If there are 4 I don't remember the other two :lol:
Definitely true about the obtuse way to play them.

But I adore Xenosaga, so I will look forward to your thoughts here. Last time I replayed through the series I was...unable to get through XS2 and had to YouTube the cutscenes and moved onto 3. But I did play the game back when it came out, so that kind of surprised me. As a game, 3 has the most polish, and I do like it a lot, but 1 is just great. I love everything about it. :monster:
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I never finished these games. I remember playing the first one and it being absurdly long. Maybe a bit of the second? I recall 3 of them.

Are they even available outside the PS2?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I never finished these games. I remember playing the first one and it being absurdly long. Maybe a bit of the second? I recall 3 of them.

Are they even available outside the PS2?

Nope. The creator tweeted several years ago now asking about interest in an HD remaster collection that had some people excited but never went anywhere. In addition to not being smash hits to begin with, they're likely in kind of a licensing hell with Namco Bandai holding the license but Nintendo owning the studio, Monolith Soft. Although KOS-MOS has shown up in various cameos including in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, so maybe it wouldn't be so hard.

The first one was renowned for absurdly long cutscenes, but the game itself is a pretty standard/reasonable JRPG length of 35-40 hours. I think the longest cutscene is 30-some minutes. But I was so into the story of these games I never minded :)
 
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Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i am playing episode 1 following a guide online so i don’t miss stuff/get the most out of my play through, and it has already used some variation of “think of it as watching an episode of an anime” multiple times for the occasions where you’re just sitting back watching cutscenes. i am not put off by long cutscenes in games but even i think like “okay this is maybe a bit excessive lol”

i am oddly looking forward to getting to episode 2. i don’t remember having the negative reaction others had to it, i didn’t even hate the art style change (even though it did look a bit flat at times). idk maybe it is nostalgia. i think the english version changed a bunch of the cast so maybe it’s jarring whereas the japanese version was consistent throughout? but for the first game i played the one with english voices so i didn’t have that continuity anyway. going back and playing episode 1 in japanese this time simultaneously feels familiar (these are the voices i know from the other games) and different (they’re not the voices i originally experienced)

although i remember something called ‘helter skelter’ and never finishing an optional dungeon. which i plan to attempt this time

as i was going to sleep yesterday i remembered the vocal tracks from the first game which i hadn’t thought about for ages. i am refraining from listening to them again until i get to them in-game. i didn’t mind the change of composer for 2 and 3, some of those tracks slap hard. but i do have a soft spot for episode 1’s ost. i have been humming the u-tic theme since hearing it again
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
i am oddly looking forward to getting to episode 2. i don’t remember having the negative reaction others had to it, i didn’t even hate the art style change (even though it did look a bit flat at times). idk maybe it is nostalgia. i think the english version changed a bunch of the cast so maybe it’s jarring whereas the japanese version was consistent throughout?

Yeah, Shion, KOS-MOS, MOMO, and chaos all had different voices in English for XS2. The biggest issue for me was KOS-MOS, as I really really like her English voice. It's a great mix of authority and robotic-ness but with a touch of naivete. Shion was also a downgrade. Fortunately they both came back for 3. MOMO and chaos kept the new voices but I wasn't quite as aggrieved by those changes. (sidebar, this game's voice cast had a lot of overlap with Trigun, haha. Shion = Millie, KOS-MOS = Rem, Margulis = Ingway, Jr. and MOMO are the young kids couple in that traveling circus episode thing, etc. MOMO also has the same voice as Shelinda in FFX.)
Crispin Freeman also does a great job with Albedo in this game, imo.

I didn't care for the art style change in 2 either, but the reason I couldn't get through it on replay was the gameplay and the load times. Hot damn everything in that game takes forever, you have a good several seconds after a battle starts before all the characters actually load in. It makes FFIX look speedy. And the battle system just feels...clunky. It's a shame to me that 3 would just give in and become a Fight, Magic, Item menu RPG after the xenogears and xenosaga 1 approach, but 2 definitely bloated that system too far.

And yeah, I think I'd have to say that 1 has the best soundtrack overall, but I still like 2 and 3's. They're more sci-fi and less space opera, so a matter of taste I guess. One remarkable thing about 1 is how sparse the soundtrack is. Several dungeons don't have any music at all, and there's not standard boss theme. Impressive that it still comes off as good as it does. That's Yasunori Mitsuda for you, I guess.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Wow, it seems they made a shoddy anime adaptation. Also condensed remakes of 1 and 2 for the Nintendo DS??

Kinda weird to that this series had enough attention at the time to get an anime, but has yet to have a release on any modern gaming platform. Also given how popular the Xenoblade games are.
 
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Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i remember downloading a fansub of the anime when it came out and they had put little ‘pop-up music videos’ style notes explaining the terms they were using. the english/american dvd release of the anime excel saga did that where it had a separate subtitle track that would explain cultural references and stuff in the show since there were lots

but let me tell you about my irrational dislike of the fansub one. because it’s one thing for excel saga to do that to highlight things that a japanese viewer would understand having grown up in the culture. but unless they were a massive fucking nerd who knew that game, they aren’t going to naturally know what ‘gnosis’ or ‘realian’ or ‘life recycling act’ or ‘u.m.n.’ or ‘hilbert effect’ means. these terms specific to the story didn’t have notes taking up a quarter of the screen in its original release. maybe if you wanted to do that as a bonus thing, but these were hard coded into the video. i do not accept that, fansubbers

so i burned the raw of the first episode or two onto a dvd and watched it on a proper tv, then didn’t finish the rest of the series until a few years ago because i can hardly ever get through tv series

the anime will probably go into my big revisiting of the series, along with the ds game. which i think i enjoyed well enough? basically as a good retelling of 1 and 2 before episode 3, but with a consistent art style throughout and keeping shion as the main focus rather than jumping to other characters (a lot of non-shion stuff like the opening of ep 2 gets put into substories you can skip past and watch at any time later). plus iirc it added some stuff that would also come up in ep 3, and integrated characters like hermann and richard more into story of ep 1 instead of just popping up suddenly in ep 2 (even though they were already featured in the drama cds for ep 1 but now they gave richard just the fruitiest design imaginable)

86E4EBDE-D4C5-4D11-9138-4DC3A8BA663A.jpg

now i have unlocked the memory of the drama cds, that is another thing i will be adding to my revisit:

- episode 1
- drama cds
- anime
- xenosaga freaks
- episode 2
- pied piper (someone has uploaded videos of it so i am just going to be watching those)
- i&ii ds
- missing year
- episode 3

i am leaving out ep 1 reloaded since it’s just ep 1 again with english voices, and probably not going to try to track down comics since i think it’s all just joke anthologies

‘missing year’ is also what i am going to call all the time i will be spending on this

edit; no! just remembered, because i only learnt it recently when looking up xenosaga stuff, there is a 3 volume manga for episode 1 that basically covers the same story i think. so even though that would be a total of 4 different tellings of ep 1’s story on my itinerary (original game, anime, ds, manga) it’s still going on the list
 

Verena

Pro Adventurer
I played them back on ps2 and it was great. Also the soundtrack. I think i luvved the third part most, then the 1.
The best song i found was the ending theme maybe tomorrow
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
KOS-MOS is love.

I need to play the 2nd & 3rd games. I was fascinated and interested in the series a long time ago, back during the 2004-2006 era. I loved Xenogears back in the day so I was interested.

Hilariously enough, I finally got around to playing Xenoblade 2 and have dove head first into that series. Love it so much, and once I beat XC1 & XC3, I'm probably going to give Xenosaga a try!
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Between hito's posts in the emulator thread and falling down a YouTube hole about Xenosaga, I started a new game last weekend. About 16 hours in and I still love it. Such a fun RPG. Just finished the Cathedral Ship dungeon, the boss at the end of that is still tough.

Despite being a fairly diehard fan, I never really looked at the database in this game. This time I did and its kinda fascinating. Unlike most games in which I've experienced a database, it's not written as though it's part of the game world. Reads more like developers commentary on things.
Like there's an entry for Jin (Shion's brother) and it ends with a note that they're really sorry they weren't able to get to him in this first episode, lol. And the entry for curry shares an anecdote where at a showing they did for a game with the scene of them all eating in the Elsa mess hall, an American player wondered "what the hell are they eating?!"
One entry for....arg, I can't remember, one of the numerous terms they use for the tech in the game that is a reference to something from Carl Jung. They say that that's what it is, and then recommend the player go read and see if they can tell where they're going with this. Or the NATARAJA start-up system they mention in the opening when they boot up KOS-MOS. Nataraja is the dance of creation and destruction that Shiva (the hindu god) does. And then it's like, "So ponder what you think that might mean."

This database is assigning me homework, lol
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i have xenoblade 1 waiting to play but it's probably going to be waiting a bit longer.

One entry for....arg, I can't remember, one of the numerous terms they use for the tech in the game that is a reference to something from Carl Jung.
this could be a number of them lol (albedo/nigredo/rubedo, unus mundus from the u.m.n., archetype, pleroma, i don't think they mention anima in episode 1 but that's another one)

i have been on a bit of a break from playing, i tried out an older tv but it doesn't work as well with this hdmi adapter i'm using.

the cathedral ship (namely the end) was probably the biggest hurdle i've had so far. also i don't know if it was because i started playing from the modded memory card then moved onto the disc on a different console, but i realised that my game timer has stopped at 19 hours lol. i guess it's the system clocks being different or something. so now i don't know how long i've been playing.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Just before Crisis Core R dropped I finished my XS2 replay. That was my first time playing it since the original release. One thing I did not remember and was a pleasant surprise was just how open the game was from the start. It picks up seconds after XS1 ended (since it was all supposed to be in one game anyway, I'd guess), and you immediately have access to the areas you did in XS1. (The Elsa, the Durandal, the Kukai Foundation, and now Second Miltia.) And the areas, at least, look nice in the updated engine. All the NPCs are also still talking about things that happened over the last third of the first game since, you know, it all happened over the last day or so for them, haha. So playing it straight in from 1 offered some nice continuity. I also had no recollection of the sidequest system. It's pretty robust, and there are a lot of them.

However, the negatives were also immediately clear. I personally don't love the new character models, but that's a lesser gripe. It is weird how inconsistent the effects were. The female characters (+Jr) in particular seemed to suffer the most from the change, while people like Ziggy and Allen look basically exactly the same. Strange. Much worse was the voice acting, which of course won't be a problem for hito. As addressed, I thought all the changed voice actors were worse (KOS-MOS, Shion, Momo, chaos, in order of severity of downgrade), but actually much more important is the voice direction is way off even for the returning actors. In XS1 the conversations all play out very naturally (if anime-y, lol), suddenly in 2, everyone is extremely robotic with gaps before and after every line. It's quite bad, lol. Crispin Freeman is still acting his ass off as Albedo, but everything is just more muted.
Allow me to demonstrate with a comparison; both scenes are timestamped:
XS1 (this is a long scene, watch however long you feel gives you an impression, I love it though)
And XS2 :nah: (also right at the beginning demonstrates what I'm saying about KOS-MOS' voice)

As for the combat, I appreciate what they were trying to do, but it's just so slow. Boost being shared by the party instead of per character is an improvement. The other mechanic is that each character can stock up to 3 moves when can then be used all at once. There are also special moves, but they don't do as much damage as the a fully stocked move, so every battle is just spending 3 turns stocking with everyone, unloading your attacks, and then starting over. And you will, because even standard enemies have too much health. And none of your regular attacks have the oomph of the attacks and Tech Attacks from the first one. So it doesn't even feel satisfying when you do pull off long combos. Oh, also every character shares the exact same skill tree/pool-thing, so there's no character identity there either, like there was with all of XS1's ether and tech attack suites.

So it definitely started to drag, I was doing a lot of the sidequests but eventually just went for the ending. Still, I'm glad I experienced it again, there was a lot I didn't remember, and the knowledge that 3 is so good was very good motivation to push through. I feel bad for 16-year-old me who had no such assurance, lol. Now that I'm through Crisis Core, my replay will continue with 3!
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Sorry to have hijacked your Xenosaga thread, @Strangelove , but I've just completed my series playthrough :P

As hinted at the end of the last post, hot damn is 3 an improvement over 2 :lol:
Shion and KOS-MOS got their original voice actors back, and very-flat Canaan got changed to Steve Blum, so that's great. But really it's in game design that just puts this on another level. The combat is snappy (which is a HUGE shift from 2), and the character ability system is super enjoyable. Each character has two (unique!) trees that you can send them down. By the end of hte game you'll be able to fill out both, but while you're making your way through, it greatly affects your playstyle. Also, everyone earns appreciable XP and SP even if they're not in your party, so rotating your active party around is very feasible, and I really enjoyed trying to mix and match everyone. Even if KOS-MOS, of course, remains a mainstay :P
The Boost mechanic remains, but now I hardly ever use it to jump in turn order, because it's more useful to spend for "Special Attacks," which are like Ep 1's tech attacks, but a little more basic. However, if you kill an enemy with special attack, you get 150% XP and AP from that enemy. So to run into a group of 4 or 5 enemies, try to weaken them all equally before wiping them all out with an AoE Special Attack is risky, but so satisfying, and equally rewarding.
1902.gif

Also, you can unlock accessories that increase your total pool of Boost. Which is necessary for some late game special attacks, but even just being able to rattle off multiple lesser Specials feels cool, too.

The mechs, while not as customizable as in 1, are much closer compared to 2. Their combat is still a little basic, but still enjoyable. The first of 2 superbosses is a mech fight (against a mech that's basically Weltall from Xenogears), which takes WAY too long, but it does give you this game's Knights of the Round, so I guess it's worthwhile.
There are also lots of little touches, I like how each character has different animations for destroying debris in the exploration map (2 did this as well, in fairness).
In short, it's just way more fun to play, all the way around.

The minigame in this one, HaKox (lul), is a Lemmings-like which is...fine. I even enjoyed it for a bit, but to actually beat it all was more than I could take, I threw in the towel, lol. The music, sound effects, and voice clips are annoying too, which doesn't help. Not finishing it means you miss out on Jr.'s ultimate weapon, but, oh well.

The story is also still very strong, especially since on this playthrough I read the side content which I never did before. The Pied Piper cellphone game, and the Missing Year flash game. The latter is extremely helpful. Pied Piper is good specifically for Ziggy and Voyager's history, but outside of one scene it's not all that relevant. But if you continue your playthrough, hito, I definitely recommend Missing Year if you only do one.
The pacing is much better than in 2, with solid dungeons, and it's great to finally see what all went down on Old Miltia and all that stuff. However, you can't escape that they clearly had to rush the conclusion of the series in the back half of the game. The answers to all those hundreds of questions the series had thrown thus far start getting answered left and right and a lot of the answers are, of course, pretty out there. So the fact that they don't really get the time to breathe hurts it.
Also, though I always got a kick of all the Judeo-Christian and Jungian stuff, by the end the story becomes very mystical and I do find myself missing the more...Mysterious-but-hardish Science Fiction of the first game. Kind of unavoidable I suppose, both between the rush and the fact that mystery is almost always more compelling than the answer, especially when so teased out.

Which is why I still land where I said in the beginning. 3 is unquestionably the best game in the trilogy. Indeed, I'll say it's one of the best RPGs on the PS2, period. However, I still personally like 1 the most. The story is so compelling, KOS-MOS is just a badass gnosis-killing android and not [redacted]. Also, the combat is much clunkier than 3, but it also has so much impact. The tech attacks, even though you do see them many times over, just feel like they hit so hard with the emphatic way they're said and the explosions and sound effects. KOS-MOS' R-Cannon, for instance.
In 1 - she says "Charging" we see her arm morph into the cannon, "R-CANNON!" *huge explosion*
In 3 - the move passes so fast you could be forgiven for missing it entirely:
This is objectively good for the pace of combat, and it's still cool that it flips her backwards, but I find myself missing the build-up and payoff.

Anyway, that whole playthrough took me 3 months (with a CC break in between), and about 100 hours of gameplay, plus the time spent reading Pied Piper and Missing Year. I enjoyed it immensely, there were a lot of story nuances I either didn't realize or didn't remember that I had a lot of fun putting together on this playthrough. Strong recommend for whoever has access to these very inaccessible games.
(on that note, I was messing around with a PS2 emulator on my PC while I was in the final dungeon - I was playing my original copies on my PS2 - and I used XS3 as a test. and holy crap it looked and sounded SO MUCH BETTER. Immediately kicked myself for not playing it that way. Everything was so much brighter and sharper, and the sound had a lot more bass.) Oh well, next time :monster:
 
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Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Sorry to have hijacked your Xenosaga thread, @Strangelove , but I've just completed my series playthrough :P
this is good because i have fallen off my playthroughs, i am still not done with episode 1. i think my mistake was having to set up the ps2 every time i wanted to use it (and having it in the room where i sleep when i'm a big sleepy guy who's always tired). i should rearrange things so it's constantly set up for the time being. and like, set a time to play it instead of just thinking maybe i will do it if i'm not too sleepy

in the meantime i watched a 40 minute video of all of kos-mos' attacks from like every game she has been in. i could have been playing the game with that time.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I wish someone would actually finish a translation for Xenosaga 1+2 for the DS. I think it would be the superior way to play XS2 by far.
 
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