Zack's parents & Cloud: A complicated situation?

[Shademp]

On a few occasions I've seen posts about the yet-to-be-presented scenario where Zack's parents are informed of Zack's demise, often involving the demand that Cloud should be the one to break the news and the poster wondering why such an event is yet to be described in Compilation material like the On the Way to a Smile entries.

I didn't question these sentiments for the longest time, but recently got to thinking. What if it is actually perfectly justified and logical that Cloud, himself, has not told Zack's parents about what happened to their son? This is the case under the assumption that it belongs to canon that Cloud (+Aerith + Tifa) visited Gongaga on disc 1 and that the event there with Zack's parents was triggered.

Spoiler: Game Script

(Man)
“You a traveller? Hey wait,
that glare in your eye…
you in SOLDIER?”

(Woman)
“Oh you're right!
Don't you know anything
about our son?”

(Man)
“His name is Zack.”

(Woman)
“It's been close to 10 years since
he left for the city, saying that
he didn't want to live in the country…”

(Man)
“He left saying
he's going to join SOLDIER.
You ever hear of a Zack in SOLDIER?”

Cloud:
“Hmmm…I don't know.”

This version happens no matter who is or is not in your party, with small (irrelevant) divergences afterwards.

Cloud: “Hmmm…I don't know.”
Cloud:「さあ……知らないな」

I can't say with 100% certainty if this event occurred. Material like "The Reminiscence of FFVII" does show Tifa react to hearing about Zack. Her and Aerith's reactions are relevant to the plot, but that's all I can say with confidence.


Let's assume for the sake of argument that Cloud visiting Zack's parents in OG is a canon event, same with Cloud's response. How likely is it then that, upon finally remembering Zack again, Cloud would drag himself back again to Zack's parents, then explain his friend's fate while at the same time trying to explain why he could not remember anything earlier? Especially in a case where Cloud tells the whole story (that Zack saved his life) I can only imagine the parents gasping at disbelief that Cloud would forget such a thing.

In fact, I'd see it as a natural response from the parents to believe that Cloud is lying. Fazed as the FFVII populace may be by the lifestream, Weapon etc, the human and relatable response from Zack's folks I think would be to not believe Cloud, even if they can't understand why Cloud would be lying about something so serious.

Cloud is left in a tough spot. If he realizes that he can't explain himself for forgetting about Zack, then he concludes that it is simply pointless and even harmful to return to Gongaga to act as a messenger.


What is then left to do? He doesn't have a body to show. The reports in Shinra manor (which refer to the tracking of Zack and Cloud) do not refer to the "escapees" by name, so he can't use those. If there are any other official reports referring to Zack's death, then his best hope is if Reeve accidentally came across such papers. It is much more likely though that Shinra and the Turks hold such info. This is not entirely without problems either. If Zack's parents hold anti-Shinra sentiments due to the explosion of the reactor (or some other reason) then a message from Shinra may not be one they want to believe either.


Who is left then to be the messenger that might, most likely, be believed?

Perhaps Cissnei. In Crisis Core, while Zack is on the run, we hear from Cissnei that she spoke to Zack's parents. There is event a hint that she pretended to be Zack's girlfriend. (see 08:47-> 11:50)


Crisis Core does give me a bad continuity vibe here though. When Zack asks how his mom is doing, Cissnei replies:
"She's worried. She thinks after all this, you won't be able to find a wife."

After "all this"? So Zack's parents were informed that he is on the run from Shinra? This means that they did get *some* news about Zack in recent times, albeit not from Zack himself. Technically not a huge problem, but I think that in a re-release it should be reflected in the game script that the parents knew about Zack being hunted. Admittedly though, we don't know *exactly* what Cissnei told them.


In conclusion:
I think that Cloud not being the messenger is perfectly reasonable, under the assumption that the optional visit to Zack's parents in OG is a canon event. Cissnei seems like the much more natural messenger and it is something that could have happened at any time around and after the time when the original game ended.

 

[AvecAloes]

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Cloud visiting Zack's parents in OG is a canon event, same with Cloud's response. How likely is it then that, upon finally remembering Zack again, Cloud would drag himself back again to Zack's parents, then explain his friend's fate while at the same time trying to explain why he could not remember anything earlier? Especially in a case where Cloud tells the whole story (that Zack saved his life) I can only imagine the parents gasping at disbelief that Cloud would forget such a thing.

In fact, I'd see it as a natural response from the parents to believe that Cloud is lying. Fazed as the FFVII populace may be by the lifestream, Weapon etc, the human and relatable response from Zack's folks I think would be to not believe Cloud, even if they can't understand why Cloud would be lying about something so serious.

See, I don't know if I agree with all of that. After having just witnessed the near utter destruction of the planet, I don't think it would be too difficult to believe Cloud's story, especially if backed up by others who were with him at the time (let's say Tifa were to go back with him, for instance). Yes, it's crazy, and might be hard to swallow, but I think that Zack's parents would perhaps be a little more receptive of the truth.

Cissnei seems like the much more natural messenger and it is something that could have happened at any time around and after the time when the original game ended.

Having Cissnei go to tell them is a perfectly logical in-game option, yes, but didn't they know about what happened to Zack well before the ending of the OG? Why wouldn't anyone have gone sooner? This has always bothered me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I feel like Cloud would feel that he should be the one to deliver the news, regardless of whether it would be hard to explain. That just seems like him to me.

Another reason I think this is because I feel that Cloud would believe the important thing is not that they know their son is dead. That would offer them nothing. No peace of mind or real closure or anything. The important thing would be they know he lives on through Cloud -- and everyone, really, because by saving Cloud, Zack saved the world.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Tres. As a parent myself, knowing what had happened to my son (and I have two of them), knowing for certain that he was dead and would never return, would definitely give the necessary closure, and also peace of mind to the extent that I would know he was no longer suffering. Knowing that he helped save the world would be some consolation. We all want our deaths to be meaningful. But to be told by some almost complete stranger that I should be comforted by the idea that my son lived on in him... well, if I were Zack's parents I'd probably punch Cloud.

I'm sure Cloud would want to deliver the news, but I'm also pretty sure that Cissnei would get there before him.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I didn't say Cloud should tell them that they should be comforted by that knowledge. =P Nonetheless, that would be something he -- or anyone telling them -- should hope for, and so they would mention it.

As for your point of disagreement, sure, it would give closure to know a suffering child is no longer suffering, but what reason do they have to believe he is? Or what reason do we have to think they believe so?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

He works for SOLDIER and he's been missing for five years. It would be natural for a parent to worry, in such a situation, that their son might be injured, perhaps captured, tortured, suffering.... One would hope nobody ever tortures Zack's parents by telling them what really happened to Zack.

 

[Roger]

If Cissnei hasn't told them in the months following his death, I don't see why she's all that likely she gonna beat Cloud to the punch in the weeks following the rediscovering of his original persona.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Lic:
Well, yes, but that should only be a comfort if he was experiencing ongoing suffering beforehand. If he had cancer, for example. Otherwise, knowing your healthy, young son in the prime of his life was mercilessly gunned down would bring no sense of peace at all.

The only thing that could make that okay in Zack's case is knowing what he did for Cloud, and what Cloud did for the world. Obviously, Cloud shouldn't phrase it that way. More like, "I'm sorry I couldn't tell you before. My head was so messed up from the trauma, I wasn't myself. I wouldn't let myself remember. Your son was my best friend. And he died saving my life. I'm sorry I couldn't do anything to help him. I'm sorry I couldn't tell you sooner. I'm sorry I can't replace him. But now that I can remember everything clearly, I want you to know that I'm going to live my life every day in honor of what he did for me. And I want you to know the things I was able to do because of him. You have a lot to be proud of."

Maybe worded a little better than that, but you get the idea.

 

[Octo]

Yeah, I mean Cloud could tell them how Zack saved his life and was his hero, and let them draw their own conclusions on how to feel about that. Chances are they would eventually be comforted by that, but it would take time.

I imagine they already know deep down, Zack isnt the sort to just bugger off and never write, but they deserve closure just as Elmyra did.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Finally another chance for the veteran to jerk off his military experience!

Historically Tres, you're not correct from a real world standpoint.

He works for SOLDIER and he's been missing for five years. It would be natural for a parent to worry, in such a situation, that their son might be injured, perhaps captured, tortured, suffering.... One would hope nobody ever tortures Zack's parents by telling them what really happened to Zack.

I agree with this. When your child goes off to war and he goes missing, the first thing that parents assume is 'maybe he's been captured' and believing your child is a P.O.W. is utterly devasting. There are tons of real world examples where learning your son fought and died honorably is a hell of a lot more closure than his last known location being in a concentration camp/missing.

The Marines/soldiers/sailors who gave their lives in recent conflicts all have the common denominator of their parents going 'I am devastated by our childs death, but at least I know he gave his life honorably'.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's pretty much exactly what I said. The circumstances of Zack's death were honorable. In truth, dying as he did was the only way he was going to get an honorable death while wearing a Shin-Ra uniform. Granted, his parents wouldn't know that, but Zack hadn't been off at war in quite a long time.

The Wutai War was long over by the time he wrote to tell them he had met a girlfriend. They have no reason to think he's in a bamboo cage.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The Wutai War was long over by the time he wrote to tell them he had met a girlfriend. They have no reason to think he's in a bamboo cage.

Sure they do. Wutai rebellions increased long after the war ended, and there's no way to know that all of them were squashed. Same with AVALANCHE and other anti-Shinra activities. It's simply not enough for parents to know that their child is probably/most likely dead, and certainly not comparable to the immense (but tragic) honor of someone informing them of their child's fate; which is why in the ancient world they'd have someone give a sword to the fallen soldier's family, and now they have personnel do the same in dress whites.

Closure is an important thing, and the single most uniform thing I've experienced in the service is the gratefulness of families who get to know exactly where their child was when he fell, because a lot, a shitton of families don't get that. The concept of the P.O.W. and mission in action troops is a very, very sacred thing in the military we take seriously.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm still not seeing where the disagreement here is, though. I'm the one who said Cloud telling them of Zack's marvelous deeds and what that led to would bring pride and comfort to his parents. What are you disagreeing with?

As for anti-Shin-Ra activites, while the public likely knew of the occasional terrorist incident, that's going to be on home soil. They don't know how much was actually going on, particularly with Genesis. So, again, POW scenarios shouldn't even be popping up in their heads. It would look like he just disappeared or flounced.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm still not seeing where the disagreement here is, though. I'm the one who said Cloud telling them of Zack's marvelous deeds and what that led to would bring pride and comfort to his parents. What are you disagreeing with?

As for anti-Shin-Ra activites, while the public likely knew of the occasional terrorist incident, that's going to be on home soil. They don't know how much was actually going on, particularly with Genesis. So, again, POW scenarios shouldn't even be popping up in their heads. It would look like he just disappeared or flounced.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that they'd be satisfied with just that and not knowing his ultimate fate (if known). Sure, they'd be grateful to hear what he did, but they'd still want to know what happened to him. I just can't see any other scenario or thought process.

In real life scenarios, parents aren't satisfied with 'disappeared'; it just so happens that P.O.W. is usually the most likely reason for it. M.I.A. scenarios in general are extremely unsatisfying for families to go through, which is why the concept is so sacred, at least in the real life military. I've never heard of a scenario where a family is more satisfied than a 'missing' status than the closure of a K.I.A., status, if applicable.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Keep in mind that for Zack, "dying hounorably" means "being gunned down by my own organization after I had been on the run from said organization for a year after they had experimented on me to death for four years". The only people who consider his honorable is Cloud and Co. For everyone else involved, he was a traitor and and escaped specimen and deserved to be put down.

I don't know. If I had to chose between not knowing what happened vs. knowing that he'd been experimented on... tough choice, both are equally horrible to think about. It's not like Cloud can "prove" that Zack is actually dead either. There's no body, and knowing Shin-Ra probably no records either.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Keep in mind that for Zack, "dying hounorably" means "being gunned down by my own organization after I had been on the run from said organization for a year after they had experimented on me to death for four years". The only people who consider his honorable is Cloud and Co. For everyone else involved, he was a traitor and and escaped specimen and deserved to be put down.

I don't think Shin-Ra is popular in Gongaga anyway, but especially post-Meteor, his parents wouldn't see Zack as a traitor.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that they'd be satisfied with just that and not knowing his ultimate fate (if known). Sure, they'd be grateful to hear what he did, but they'd still want to know what happened to him. I just can't see any other scenario or thought process.

In real life scenarios, parents aren't satisfied with 'disappeared'; it just so happens that P.O.W. is usually the most likely reason for it. M.I.A. scenarios in general are extremely unsatisfying for families to go through, which is why the concept is so sacred, at least in the real life military. I've never heard of a scenario where a family is more satisfied than a 'missing' status than the closure of a K.I.A., status, if applicable.

Where did I say anything about leaving them with a notion that he's missing? I specifically said Cloud should/would tell them about Zack giving his life to save him, what an honorable thing that was, and how it placed Cloud where he needed to be to do equally great things.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Where did I say anything about leaving them with a notion that he's missing? I specifically said Cloud should/would tell them about Zack giving his life to save him, what an honorable thing that was, and how it placed Cloud where he needed to be to do equally great things.

whoops