The Love Triangle of FFVII – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD
by Makoeyes987 September 25, 2009 0 commentsLooking beyond 1997 and the original game, perhaps the material of greatest support for a Cloud/Aerith pairing was the original version of Kingdom Hearts, and several comments from Tetsuya Nomura regarding it.
Though I’d originally intended to ignore both the Kingdom Hearts series and Itadaki Street Special when composing this article, I’ve become convinced that even while they aren’t part of the Final Fantasy VII canon, they could nonetheless have been used as commentary on it by the game’s developers. This is particularly true of Kingdom Hearts, as several key members of development from Final Fantasy VII were involved with the development of KH.
That being the case, both should be addressed here to determine what, if anything, they may offer on the subject of the LTD.
In the first KH game, we learn that Cloud is searching for someone and is willing to go to great lengths to find this person. As he and Aerith are
reunited during the game’s ending, it seemed that it was Aerith he had been searching for.
In an interview with the Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine for its October 2002 issue (issue #61, pg. 139), Nomura was asked, “What was the thought
behind bringing back Aerith?” and gave the following response:
Yes, she died in Final Fantasy VII, but there’s no real relation to where she was at or what role she played in FFVII. There’s no relationship from FFVII to the Kingdom Hearts stories. I consider them separate stories. But if you play Kingdom Hearts, toward the end, some of the questions about the relationship between Cloud and Aeris in FFVII might be answered. It’s sort of like a side story, and this was an extra bonus that I wanted to give to players.
Though Nomura says that KH and FFVII are separate stories with no relationship, he does suggest that one might be able to serve as commentary on the other.
Also, when asked in an interview from the Kingdom Hearts Ultimania if Cloud was searching for Aerith, Nomura replied that the game was made such that it could be interpreted that way:
(Translation by Thorfinn Tait)
–“Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?”
Nomura: “Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don’t really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone’s line of thought.”
After Sora and Cloud meet during the story, they also have a conversation that seems to imply Cloud is looking for his light, just as Sora is looking for his:
Sora: “So why did you go along with him, anyway?”
Cloud: “I’m looking for someone. Hades promised to help. I tried to exploit the power of darkness, but it backfired. I fell into darkness, and couldn’t find the light.”
Sora: “You’ll find it. I’m searching, too.”
Cloud: “For your light? Don’t lose sight of it.”
This all seems fairly straightforward: Cloud is searching for Aerith; Cloud finds her in the game’s ending; this can be taken as a comment about their relationship in the Final Fantasy VII canon.
And at the time of Kingdom Hearts’ release and the release of its Ultimania, it would have been a powerful argument. Perhaps an unbeatable one when combined with the
Of course, exactly what commentary could be made on the original by the meeting in KH was characteristically left unclear by Nomura. He may have simply meant it as a resolution to Cloud’s desire to see her again. Given that Kingdom Hearts came out well before Advent Children, this would, indeed, be the first time fans would have seen the characters — even alternate versions of them from another reality — reunited.
However, the situation quickly changed. The North American release of Kingdom Hearts saw the inclusion of Sephiroth as an optional boss. Very soon after that, Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix was released, and Sephiroth was concretely identified as the person for whom Cloud had been searching — even by Aerith herself.
After meeting Cloud in the Olympus Coliseum world, if one returns to Traverse Town and speaks with Aerith, the following exchange takes place:
Translator unknown; original source: Asperity, now known as Schism, a Cloud Strife fan shrine which now can be found here
Aerith: “At the coliseum, is there a person with a big sword and pointy hair?”
Sora: “Yeah.”
Aerith: “…I wonder if he’s still searching for him…”
Aerith: “Hey, Sora.”
Aerith: “If you see him, tell him not to do anything rash.”
Aerith: “He’s not a sociable person, but if something happens to him, there’ll be other people besides me who’ll be sad.”
Here, we see that Aerith is aware that Cloud is likely searching for someone other than herself, and we know that this person is a male.
Also, despite frequent interpretations amongst the Clerith perspective that Aerith could sense Cloud at the coliseum due to a spiritual connection with him, it’s more likely that Sora had simply told her he had been at a place where warriors gathered, and she thought it sounded like a place would go.
Obviously there’s unspoken dialogue there, unless Aerith asked Sora about the coliseum without him telling her he had been there — in which case, she would have also sensed Sora there, negating any unique quality to her being aware of Cloud’s location.
When Cloud and Sephiroth finally meet for the conflict known as the Showdown of Fate, it’s confirmed in their dialogue that they were searching for each other:
Cloud: “So we meet at last.”
Sephiroth: “I was searching for you too.”
Cloud: “As long as you exist, I can’t wake from this nightmare.”
Cloud: “You are my darkness.”
Sephiroth: “If that’s so, I shall draw you into the darkness.”
Sephiroth: “Into the nightmare that forever deprives you of light, from which you can never awaken.”
What was once ambiguous and open to interpretation became concrete and clear-cut: Cloud was searching for Sephiroth, not Aerith.
While claims have been made that the original version’s lack of Sephiroth requires that who Cloud was ultimately searching for still be Aerith, to that I can only ask if one would refuse to count Ruby and Emerald WEAPON as part of the Final Fantasy VII canon due to their absence in the original Japanese release of the game. Likewise with the battle against Diamond WEAPON outside Midgar, and the same with the flashback that depicts Zack’s death and explains
how Cloud came to be in Midgar at the beginning of the game.
All of these elements have been included as canon in official FFVII guides, despite not being part of the original release. They were first added to the North American version, and then included with the game’s re-release in Japan as Fantasy VII International. Theories could still have been — and probably were — formulated about how Cloud came to Midgar with just the original Japanese release, but whatever they were, the abstract once again became concrete later on.
The possibility, of course, does remain that Cloud was searching for both his light and his darkness (Sephiroth), the same way that Sora was looking for both Kairi (his light) and Riku. At the very least, Cloud does say he had tried to find his light.
Thematically, this would make sense: Sora is searching for Kairi and Riku; Cloud is searching for both Aerith and Sephiroth; in the ending credits, Aladdin is shown being reunited with his love interest, Jasmine — presumably his light, the same as Kairi was Sora’s. The game’s ending also spends quite a bit of time dealing with Kairi and Sora.
As Cloud is shown being reunited with Aerith in the end credits, it seems to fit, then, that she is his light. Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix left the identity of Cloud’s light unknown, but easy enough to conclude as Aerith.
As well, we’re left with another quote from Nomura in the KH Ultimania to account for (pg. 525):
“Back at the time of FFVII, I had said some things that wasn’t what I intended and I had hoped to correct it, but it was too late. Up until production this role was planned to be filled by Aya (from Parasite Eve), but I had requests/demands from staff who were in charge of FFVII, so Aerith appears this time, and from there we expanded on the story with Cloud. There are instances where the development of the character’s stories were born out of exchange [of ideas, etc.] like this.”
From this, we learn that Cloud was only included because of Aerith’s
presence. The implication, then, is that, in whatever way Cloud’s role
expanded the story, their individual stories are likely connected given that one character was included because of the other.
As for Nomura’s comment that the ending of the game might serve to answer questions about Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, to this I simply point out that Kingdom Hearts came out before any of the new Compilation of Final Fantasy VII titles that have been discussed in this article.
As well, the comment from Nomura suggesting that KH may be able to serve as commentary on FFVII came before the resolution of another matter involving KH’s Cloud.
Another aspect of the Kingdom Hearts series often brought into the LTD is the identity of Cloud’s light — assumed to be his romantic interest given that the same was true with Sora and Kairi. Kingdom Hearts: Final Mix left the identity of Cloud’s light ambiguous, though easy enough to conclude as Aerith.
Kingdom Hearts II, however, brought Tifa into the mix and things became more complicated. Yet another comment from Nomura answered this question, however.
In an interview from the Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania, he said the following:
-“Speaking of Tifa, there’s an event where she talked to Cloud after beating Sephiroth.”
Nomura: “In Nojima-san’s scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa’s connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, ‘If Cloud’s darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light’; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn’t really human. The reason Tifa doesn’t talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn’t exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can freely think for yourself about her.”
Here, Nomura says that if Sephiroth is Cloud’s darkness — which we know him to be — then Tifa is light. While some have pointed out that Nomura didn’t specifically say this means that she is Cloud’s light, given that there are no other random embodiments of light portrayed in Kingdom Hearts, it’s safe to say that she is.
Even the Princesses of Heart were not embodiments of light, but were merely women with no darkness in their hearts — and Tifa isn’t one of the princesses anyway.
Given that Tifa’s following Cloud, that she’s attempting to help him conquer his darkness, that she may not be an ordinary human like Aerith, and since Nomura said that Cloud may be among a small handful of people who can see her, the premise that she must be Cloud’s light is all that makes sense.
It has, however, been suggested that Tifa’s light was unsuitable for Cloud, as it seemed to blind him when Tifa began fighting Sephiroth — this light represented by a white light tinged with blue. Further, it’s been said that he didn’t accept her light and that the course of the battle only turned once Cloud found his own inner light, represented by a gold aura as opposed to the white and blue that seemed to be coming from Tifa.
It’s also been pointed out that Cloud was deliberately fleeing from Tifa, As said in a comment from Nojima in the KH II Ultimania:
“Tifa wasn’t planned to appear at first. I was talking with Tetsu about what Cloud could be doing in Hallow Bastion, and we eventually moved towards him chasing after Sephiroth, but also being chased by something himself. So Cloud’s really running from something but goes around pretending, saying that he’s chasing Sephiroth. Then we decided to make it him running from the ‘something warm’ like what Tifa was after in AC.”
This is argued to mean that Cloud doesn’t want Tifa’s help and that she’s actually a hindrance to him finding his inner light.That would, after all, seem to be what Cloud’s story in KHII was about: finding his inner light.
When he sets out on his quest early in the game, Sora makes the following comment to Aerith: “He’ll be fine. I’m sure there’s some light in him somewhere.”
This article venture to dispute that the gold aura in the battle represents Cloud’s inner light. That does all seem correct.
However, it bears notice that Sephiroth explicitly says, “Let’s see what this light of yours can do,” to Tifa before attacking her. The consequence of her battle with Sephiroth is that Cloud finds his inner light once he stops running from her and steps in to protect her.
It also requires noting that once Cloud finds his light, he doesn’t instantly gain the gold aura.
When he begins to protect Tifa and she says he can have his light, Cloud is hesitant but then seems to calm himself and becomes covered in a white aura ringed with blue — like the light that’s been blinding him. Only now he’s no longer being blinded. The gold aura then appears.
One may ask, then, if Tifa was necessary to Cloud finding his inner light, why, then, did he run from her and why did her light blind him at first? The answer is simple: As Cloud said in the first Kingdom Hearts, he tried to exploit the power of darkness, and, thus, fell into darkness.
Given that Cloud’s darkness keeps calling Sephiroth back after every defeat, it’s obvious that Cloud’s heart isn’t balanced. He had leaned more toward the side of darkness and rejected his light — thus, it would blind him whenever it came near.
As Sephiroth said to Cloud during their first meeting in the game, “That darkness comes from your own dark memories. … Face it — you turn your back on the present and live in the past. Because the light of the present is too much.”
And the very next moment, what do we see? Tifa arrives, calls out Cloud’s name, and as he looks toward her, a white light tinged with blue flashes across the screen, blinding Cloud. Here, we have an illustration of the very thing Sephiroth was just describing.
At that point in KH II, Cloud leaves Tifa to defend herself alone against several Heartless. Later, he’s still as lost as ever and still seeking to
defeat Sephiroth with no conclusion in sight.
Again, Cloud only finds his inner light once he stops running from Tifa. The light of the present — his light, Tifa herself — blinded him as long as he refused to let go of the darkness of his past. Once he’s done so, however, he is surrounded with his inner light and he and Sephiroth vanish in another flash of white light tinged with blue.
Also requiring mention is that Nojima never indicated that what Cloud was running from was negative to him. He specifically called it “something warm” and compared it to what Tifa sought in Advent Children — which was stability and the comfort of family.
The gold aura that Cloud gains certainly lends itself to representing warmth.
If this is what Cloud was running from in the KH series, he was clearly not serving his own best interest. He was still relying on darkness and rejecting the light.
It’s also quite telling that, for his part, Sephiroth seems to take Tifa’s presence seriously. When she says that Cloud just needs someone to surround him with light to conquer his darkness, Sephiroth immediately points his sword at her. As well, once Cloud gains the white and blue aura from protecting Tifa, Sephiroth shouts “Stop!” and rushes in to try finishing him off.
Aerith, on the other hand, plays no role whatsoever in Cloud’s battle with his darkness, and is never associated with light where Cloud is concerned. That Tifa is Cloud’s light in the Kingdom Hearts series is certain.
If the Kingdom Hearts series, then, is to be taken as a commentary on the state of canon in Final Fantasy VII, it bodes poorly for Clerith and quite well for Cloti.
Next, we’ll look at Itadaki Street Special.
Aside from none of the key developers from the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII or the Kingdom Hearts series working on this game, there’s very little here to be looked at to begin with anyway.
The game’s opening does depict Cloud and Aerith leisurely walking down a street together, but that’s nothing we haven’t seen them do before. Granted, he isn’t depicted interacting with Tifa anywhere in this “cutscene” beyond sort of dancing next to her for a few seconds about a minute into it.
As well, it’s been pointed out that Cloud chases after Aerith at one point, though I’d argue that he’s simply doing what everyone else — including Aerith, who ran right past him immediately before — is doing: Running toward the castle that just magically appeared.
In any event, again, there’s little here to examine, and none of it was made by the key people involved with everything else related to Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. So it’s pretty much irrelevant to begin with.
My final point to make on this subject is this: Cloud comes off as quite the ZackxAerith (Zerith) fan in Advent Children Complete, putting her flowers at his grave, and his sword in her church. So, even Cloud thinks she shouldn’t be with him.
Yes, that last part is tongue-in-cheek. In seriousness, Cloud’s not pining away for Aerith, living out a self-imposed single life. He’s with Tifa. And so far, he’s doing fine.
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Thank you very much for this ^_^
This was an awesome read. You make many well thought out, concise and clear points throughout. Thank you for taking the time to do these FAQs.
Bravo… lovely read, i agree with you and this was very well thought out and there were no bias comments on the matter… ^.^ finally things can be wat they were always meant to b Zack + Aerith and Cloud + Tifa ….. lol thank you
In before flamewar…
I mean, awesome analysis.<3
It’s basically a summary of the LTD threads lol.
You are correct, I honestly don’t think there is any more subjects to pick, Cloud wanted forgiveness and Aerith/Zack where the only ones capable of giving it.
I also think that after his “release from the guilt” life with Tifa is just a matter of time.
It’s always good to see a throughful yet still hard pressed factual analysis. I do think you focus all the “core” points of the LTD and do it in a simple yet objective way (backing it up with evidence from the series but, most importantly, from the comments and views of the Compilation creators/developers as well. The evidence has always been there for everyone to see… The latest Compilation titles have only made it all more clear. I sincerely believe the LTD has an answer and that is that Cloud and Tifa are meant to be (the same way Zack and Aerith are together in the afterlife).So what can I say more…? Not much, except “well done”.
I’ve made my other comments in the PM, but good job, man. Concise summation of all the common sense arguments that’ve been floating around for ages.
Wow, I always belived myself to be a Cloud/Tifa Zack/Aerith person, but I personally always hated Aerith because she started hitting on Cloud in the first place. I was pretty much on that thought the whole time until the last line about Zack’s Buster Sword and Aerith’s flowers of how Cloud knows that the two belong together as he and Tifa do. I do believe that my hatred for Aerith is now null and void.
And still, well done to Squall_of_SeeD. I’ve read all the articles of summerizations he has put to the compilation and he never ceases to amaze me. Well done as usual.
(Not to mention this one actually ended up making me go teary-eyed. :3)
You are my new hero, Squall_of_SeeD!
Very very well done. But this still won’t end the debate unfortunately.
The only thing in all of that I didn’t inherently agree with was a pretty minor point anyway – Cloud’s crystal in Dissidia. I always figured it was the Holy materia, but I didn’t take it as really having anything to do with Aerith, just as it is FF7’s most notable “crystal.” Indeed, I didn’t even pick up on the fact that Cloud was referring to Aerith by the “one he wanted to meet.”
True, many of the crystals are ‘generic’ symbols of their respective game, a lot of them are specific.
The oddly named “White Materia” always appeared green and the size isn’t relevent as Zidane’s crystal should be 5x his size.
But, as I said, minor point, and not one that I even consider to relate to the LTD.
But again, if it were the Holy materia, why would it not be mentioned as a relevant personal connection to FFVII? If a feather belonging to Rinoa is worth a mention in Dissidia’s Ultimania, along with a reference to Zack in regards to his statement about the Buster Sword…why would the Crystal being the White Materia just be inexplicably forgotten? It’s not the same size or color, which would be necessary to equate it as such.
Oh I know, if the Ultimania doesn’t mention it than it isn’t. I was just saying that I thought it was Holy but only for the reference to the Planet, not her.
Thanks for your responses, everyone. I appreciate your kindness.
@ForceStealer: I’d agree that the size of the materia wouldn’t be relevant if it seemed that Zidane’s crystal was supposed to be the actual crystal of creation. I think it was just a representation of it, though, for the very reasons I don’t think Cloud’s crystal is the White Materia — the size and the color.
Nonetheless, thanks for your feedback.
I just read this again and I have to say again, this is really awesome XD
I posted it on a couple sites and showed a couple friends too ^_^
Cloti loves this!
Clerith doenst.
Squall_of_seed’s just a Cloti!
Nothing’s new.
:kermit:
What an insightful and valid criticism. Did you read the article or what? Cause if that’s all you have to say, it doesn’t really seem like you did.
HAHAHA.
M’kay.
And you’re a Clerith.
… the saddest part? The only part worth mentioning here is the blatant mispelling of ‘doesn’t
That and to note that I did indeed call that SoS would be labeled ‘just a Cloti’ when this hit.
Nothing’s new indeed, :monster:.
Bleah! is that all you have to say?!
Yup
I agree with my Friend Quexinos
Finally, someone does an intelligent, well thought-out article on the subject…
Too Bad it won’t Sway the Cleriths… Seriously, Nomura could actually go and say “All Cloud feels for Areith is Friendship, and Later Guilt. Not only does He Love Tifa, and wants to be with her always, but they do it every night till the sun comes up.” and they’d still deny it and make up excuses…
And as for the “Koibito” thing. What I always say about that is, Yeah, “Koibito” means “Person who is Loved”, however, screw with the Kanji a bit and you get 鯉人 (Koibito) Which means “Carp-Person” Yes, Carp as in Fish. so I submit, that Tifa and Aerith are Cloud’s Fish-People. Cloud considers them to be a mutant race of Fish people.
Argument Solved!
You know what you’re talking about. Thank you, Rin.
We’re not Clotis nor Cleriths here, we’re pro Fish-people!
Unfortunately the fish-people isn’t Tifa and Aerith–it’s Cloud and Tifa. Tifa is a koibito to Cloud (Cloud sees her as a fish-person) and Cloud is a koibito to Aerith (Aerith sees him as a fish-person). I guess this would mean Cloud and Tifa are meant to be together, because they’re both mutant carps!
(I laugh at anyone who takes that seriously.)
Unless Nomura talks about Clerith positively, they won’t listen to anything else he says. Nothing will sway those Clerith, especially something that is TL;DR (too logical; didn’t read) to them. I don’t think they’d ever read anything as well thought-out as this anyway.
(Now prove me wrong and read the whole article, and then rebut point for point. You know who you are.)
PS: Squall_of_SeeD, you rock forever and ever. But… this article needs more Clack vs Clephiroth. XDDDD
I’m now going to rename the LTD thread to the Broiling Fish Stew Thread.
Ohhh, amazing arguments. Really. Nothing I’ve never heard before though… And I can think of hundreds of counter-arguments for every of yours that my fellow Cloriths and any reasonable Cloti will give much credit. I won’t start a new discussion, though.
I’m just dropping by to say, please, will you stop this?? If there have been room for the triangle discussion through 12 years,
1st – it isn’t now (or EVER) that this will be solved;
2nd – this is one of the magics of the game that makes it everlasting, so why would you bother to ruin that??
Even if SE releases an article intitulated “CLOUD AND TIFA MARRIES AND HAVE TWENTY CHILDREN” I won’t stop supporting Clorith, because I believe in them, as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.
Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple. No one, I repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. It’s a triangle, for God’s sake, and what is left to a love-triangle if one of the extremities are cut off? Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters, there’s no logic in them getting in the bad side of half their fanbase. Think about that.
Just one more thing… Stop bashing Clorith, will you? I’ve read your comments and I’m more disgusted than ever. You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa. I’ve never seen you refuting any Clorith arguments that wasn’t in the lines of “you Clorith are unreasonable”. I can affirm that my ship doesn’t do that! Who’s really unreasonable here???
LOLOL Whut.
“Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” and there will be as much ones to support the other couple.”
Please do the digging and show us. 😀 Join the forums so we can discuss this properly.
“Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue. ”
Source, please? If it was SO clear, we should have seen it by now and ended this stupid LTD once and for all.
So it will always be a triangle? I wonder why they made Crisis Core and all. Maybe they made CC so blatantly ZackxAerith until the end because they want the love triangle to continue? They even extended AC to show more of Zack. Uhh, yeah. The love triangle is still so a triangle. Who’s Zack Fair, First Class SOLDIER, again?
“Almost half the FF7 fans are CLorith supporters,”
Except no, there are three kinds of main ships in the fandom now. Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith. Zerith has grown quite big in the recent years, and Clotis are still more than Cleriths. Just FFnet is enough proof of that. Search for Cloud-Tifa fics, then Cloud-Aerith fics. Heck, even Zack-Aerith beats Cloud-Aerith. Internet numbers that you can clearly see with a click don’t lie.
Maybe what you mean to say is that almost half of the fandom LIKES Clerith. I don’t mind that. My friends like it, a lot of people like it. WE DON’T CARE. They can ship the pairing they want to ship, but they can’t say which is canon and which is not when it’s not in their hands. Sorry to say.
Also, please look at what the Clerith fandom is doing to the Clotis. Did Clotis ever make a hatelisting for Clerith? No. Is there a Cloti forum alive that bashes Cleriths behind their backs? No. Are Clotis making anti-Clerith banners and blatantly bashing characters on every other website they make? No.
Who’s being unreasonable here? I beg you to search Cloti on google. What will you see? “Anti-Cloti” “Unofficial Cloti hatelisting” “Anti-Tifa” Wow, 12 years later, and they still haven’t matured.
I should have been a full-fledged Clerith before, until I saw all of that. It’s a big turn-off.
Just so you know, we have Clotis that absolutely love Aerith. I love Aerith. So why do Cleriths hate Tifa?
What are you affirming that your ship isn’t doing? Don’t accuse the Clotis of being unreasonable. That’s just silly and downright hypocritical. And besides, what makes you think everyone here is a Cloti anyway? Jumping right down to labeling people who don’t agree with you?
“You’re just jealous that Cloud spends more time thinking about Aerith (romantically or not) in AC/ACC than in Tifa.”
Did you watch ACC (the retcon of AC)? Actually, no, he thinks about Zack equally too. Are we supposed to argue that Cloud loves Zack just as much as Aerith and more than Tifa? So… Squall_of_SeeD is jealous that Cloud spent more of his time thinking about Zack and Aerith than Tifa, so he made a comprehensive analysis about the triangle of Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa? Wow, that makes a whole lot of sense.
And before you label me as a OMGCLOTI, I’m actually more Fack than Cloti. Currently, anyway. Thanks to a Cloti shipper who’s writing an awesome ZackxTifa fic that I’m fangirling over right now, I got to like Fack more than Cloti. That doesn’t mean I want Fack to be OMGCANON. Things don’t work that way.
I won’t stop supporting Cloti, even though it’s not my OTP. I won’t stop liking Fack just because it isn’t canon. I won’t stop supporting FFVII just because it’s practically as old as I am.
See the freedom of choice?
Oh noes some people probably didn’t reach this part of my comment before blowing their tops and getting emotionally involved with a video game pairing and wanting to flame me oh noes what do i do
PS: OH LOOK HERE STARTS THE FLAME WAR. I BET I’M GOING TO BE FLAMED IN THE NEXT COMMENT BECAUSE I’M SO UNREASONABLE. LOLOLOLOLOL YAY
ang haba naman ng sinulat mo….
really…..
Haha, sorry. Marami akong oras eh. Cancelled classes hanggang bukas hehehehehe XD
WHAT THE HECK! PINOY! WOOOHOOO!!!
We’ll have no bukakke in the latest LTD argument, kthx =D.
ahaha. ou. ang haba ng sinilat niya.
haha. makikisingit lng ako sa usapan niyo aa…
Actually… I googled CloTi and I got pro-CloTi stuff everywhere. dA clubs, fanlistings, the works… I then googled Clerith and got the same, except for an ED page, which surprised me. I didn’t read it because well, I’m sure we all know what ED is like.
I’m a Clerith shipper. I love the pairing and though I don’t mind CloTi shippers, I hate the ship mostly except for one song I think goes well with them. ANYWAY, not all Cleriths are all “omg Tifa sucks and should die in a fire”. I love Tifa! I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.
The internet is so huge that you may have either missed some obscure CLoTi-shipping, Aerith hating site somewhere or you actually didn’t look. I didn’t find anything either, but I wouldn’t 100% deny that there was one, even if it’s some unpopular, outdated thing.
Fack is awesome however. You are cool.
“I think she has a bit of an overly Cloud-complex in FFVII, but in AC/C when she has more of a motherly love for him, she’s a much more likeable character.”
Tifa does not love Cloud like a son. And he does not love her like a mother.
They are lovers, business partners and parents.
Of course this LT will never be solved. It’s not like there’s been any new creator commentary or creative work within those 12 years that gives any sort of position or narrative context that allows one to see Cloud’s true feelings. Yup, there’s no answer at all. Clearly it’s all a mystery.
Btw, thank you for admitting to the fact you’d deny the truth even if the creators slapped you in the face with it. Stopped reading there. “Die for our ship!” fans are so amusing. It’s like common sense just goes out the window for some people.
Aside from not knowing what “intitulated” means… I’d have to say your response is very rant-esque. There was no bashing in this essay–AT ALL. None. Zippo, zero, zilch, nadda. Soooo…I’m confused where that snide little remark comes in.
Also, “Anyone can dig up anything from the series/producers and affirm “this is the real proof my ship wins” ” Please, do. (In the proper forum of course)
And last: “as well as I think neither of you (true) Cloti’s will stop shipping your couple if Cloud kills himself to reunite with Aerith in the Lifestream.” You bet your ass I’d stop “‘shipping” Cloti if they did that. It goes against the entire framework of compilation and characters…but I digress. Let’s say the magic EMO fairy makes Cloudy boy cut his life-strings and he does go float with Aerith I’d still respect the narrative, and consider that canon. Like it? No. But respect it and acknowledge it, yes. Acknowledging canon does NOT mean giving up your ship, it simply means accepting the compilation as creator intended. It’s not all that hard.
“repeat, NO ONE – and Nomura clearly stated that – of the team will take just one side of the triangle because they want the debates to continue.”
Proof plz
1.) You’re right in that it probably won’t be resolved. XD
2.) Nobody cares what ship you like best. NOBODY. Canon or not, just ship a ship and shut up about it, okay?
3.) The vast majority of the FFVII fandom doesn’t even care about the LTD anyway, because in reality it is the least important aspect of the entire plot. FFVII is not a love story. It is not some cheesy romance novel or Twilight. So stop with the “half of us are clerith!” That doesn’t mean anything anyway. Shear numbers of believers don’t constitute proof.
4.) Where in this article were Clerith shippers ever bashed? Where? Nowhere.
All other points aside, you’re right on the fact that they’ll probably never create anything showing, for example, Cloud / Tifa getting married / getting it on directly, nor the same the other way around with Aerith (which would be a bit odd, considering she’s dead), nor him positively shunning either. Next to the base story of antagonist v.s. protagonist with superpowarz and loads of subplots, the LTD is quite possibly the main reason why FFVII is still discussed as much as it is. In fact, I can’t think of any other game that’s as old as FFVII that’s discussed about as much, or whose story is picked apart in such detail.
And yeah, the creators / writers know that too. The quotes listed in the article don’t explicitly state ‘X is canon’, and I’m sure that if you’d have a video of the listed interviews, you’d see the people being interviews picking their wording very precisely, as to not bluntly say ‘X is canon’. ‘Cause that’d be dumb.
However, it can’t be denied that at the current ‘time’ of the Compilation, Cloud is much closer to Tifa than with Aerith. Besides, people tend to quit being romantically interested in people years after they’re dead. Love, oh sure, but love in the old friend / family sense of the word.
Bravo!
I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral. First, it doesn’t matter how many editorial ‘pieces’ you’ve made on the Final Fantasy game series, it doesn’t a) make anything you say official or b) make it anything more than just your opinions which have already been biased by your clear preference for one girl over an other.
I mean if we’re going to be posting this guy’s opnion on the love triangle, let’s ask a thoughtful, well-written CloudxAerith shipper about her thoughts, or a thoughtful, well-written CloudxZack shipper (like me) about HER thoughts and they’ll probably be able to give equally thoughtful and well-written essays explaining why they’re OPINIONS are somehow canon.
Only they probably wouldn’t have the name or the mighty creditials (ie: wrote essay about Ultmecia…wooo) to make their biased fan opinion seem official.
Look in the end you’re just a guy with your own opinions. You wrote a nice article, but no one should take it as having any more proof about the original intentions of the series than ANY well-written article written by ANY other blatant shipper about ANY other pairing in existence.
Unless you’re secretly one of the original creators, I don’t give a shit about what you say. Sorry. But I’m sure other Clotis really appreciated you validating their opinions (just like, had I written a CloudxZack essay, Clackers would be kissing MY ass).
DO THE ESSAY. DO IT.
Thanks for your response, SS.
I believe what you overlooked in this article, however, is that I didn’t present my opinion as the definitive answer. Instead, I presented the words of the individual who wrote most of the FFVII titles — including the original — as that definitive answer.
Given that you say you would concern yourself with what the original creators say, I must, then, ask why you don’t address them in your reply. You address only me.
I’m more or less just compiling the various things they have said on the matter into one place.
Any article you read featuring the words of those designers will probably be presented to you by someone else. Does that dilute the relevance of what they’ve said?
As for my preference of Tifa biasing my views of the matter, that’s not an unreasonable concern. However, as you may know, in any public address, it’s necessary to state one’s personal views upfront. Otherwise, it becomes a question of honesty.
Would you prefer one who has made up their mind keep that a secret while speaking to you behind a veil of complete objectivity, or would you prefer that they tell you their views and then explain why they hold them?
You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.
This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis. They must attempt to distance themselves as much as possible while drawing their conclusions, however.
You are free to disagree, but I believe my three-and-a-half-year absence from this fandom has given me a degree of distance. I will tell you outright that I could not have objectively discussed this matter in 2005.
I believe I’ve done a reasonable job of it at this point, however. I started with the developers’ comments as both foundation and framework, analyzing the various materials through that lens and in light of one another.
While I would agree with you or Lily that there are a multitude of counterarguments to be made, I also feel — from my, yes, potentially flawed perspective — that they only work when made in isolation. Not when examining the context of all materials present, with each individual component part of a whole, and without value when examined as not part of the whole.
It’s reasonable enough to see Cloud’s line about meeting Aerith at the end of FFVII as a sign of yearning when examined in isolation. Looking back on it today, the original game alone presented as strong an argument for Aerith as for Tifa — and arguably a stronger one.
Likewise, it’s easy to see how Cloud leaving the family situation he had with Tifa as a sign that he was unhappy being around her — but only if you stop there. If you don’t look at AC/ACC or the various comments on the matter from the developers, you wouldn’t know he left because he was happy there but felt unworthy of it.
I’m not, however, examining this matter in light of the original game alone or “On the Way to a Smile” alone. If all are to be treated as part of a larger body of work, then all must be examined in the context of one another.
I hope you see where I’m coming from better now. You are, of course, still free to disagree.
I agree with everthing you said here but I especially would like to point out one section:
“You won’t find someone with no opinion on the matter actually speaking on it. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible. Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process.”
This is such an overlooked and important aspect of debates
Typically, a number of the people you see arguing ‘for’ C/T aren’t shipping it. They are simply seeing the common sense answer by taking all the available evidence and attempting to parse it in a rational manner. They are without emotional preference in the matter, and aside from the people who claim it has no answer or have no opinion, that is as close as it’s going to get.
It’s his opinion that Nojima and Nomura have said that Cloud and Tifa are a couple?…
SoS is so powerful than he can make Nomura and Nojima tell everyone his completely baseless, biased, Cloti opinion?
Wow, he’s getting cooler by the minute…
“I think it’s useless asking the opinion of someone who’s already chosen a side. It’s better to ask someone who’s neutral.”
If you’d give someone neutral FFVII and let him play it, halfway he’d go ‘Cloud obviously lieks Aerith, lol’, and quite likely stick by it. But if you want someone neutral to give his / her own, neutral opinion, you’d have to give him / her all the available materials, make him/her play all the games, read everything.
In the end, that person, as indicated earlier, would no longer be neutral, and be quite likely as confused as everyone else. Cleriths and Clotis are both groups that played the games, read the comments, the interviews, and everything, and which have both interpreted the story in their own way – Tifa-focussed, or Aerith-focussed. There’s nothing a ‘neutral’ party can say about that.
In the end, it’s personal preference. Facts are abundant, but remain vague and sometimes open to interpretation, and are always given a certain ‘strength’ based on the reader and the source of that fact. The amount of strength given to a creator saying ‘yeh cloti is cannon’ would be low in the eyes of a Clerith shipper, and vice-versa.
So yeah.
I agree, do the essay!
I’m too busy to even contemplate doing it myself 😀
First off Squall_of_Seed’s LTD essay isn’t “Pro-Cloti” ‘Shipping opinion. It follows the narrative of compilation, and comes up with a conclusion BASED on that; not opinion. The counter argument of “This won’t change anything” is stupid. It’s not meant to CHANGE anything. Compilation is what it is, and in it there IS a definitive answer. THIS just points it out with big neon signs for those too ‘ship-blind to see it. **sigh**
It’s also NOT and OP-ED piece. It’s compilation, creator statement, and fact. People seriously need to learn what an opinionated essay is versus what a factual reconstruction of a narrative is.
No one is kissing any ass (jealous much?), but there are plenty of thanks for the time taken to compile the FACTS into this essay form.
You all can put your lighters back in your pockets. For real.
It’s strange. This makes complete logical sense.
Almost as if it was intended that way by the creators.
Stop that blasphemy this instant >:(
Vendel, FFVII is just a game with a storyline that was only intended to be interpreted point for point. Nothing was intended by the creators. Everything was intended by the fans. It’s obviously more logical this way.
I agree with Quexi. Stop this nonsense! >:(
Stop the trolling! /lookwho’stalking
I agree with Quexi and I Am Not Me. Vendel is the one who constantly make nonsense comments but flaming people being nonsense.
Yes, the Clerii have come up with a multitude of so-called counter arguments.
Remember the made up Japanese people dining at WacDonalds making up shit like koi___bito being two words and not meaning what it does (unless it’s used in reference to Aeris)É
The rest fo them follow in a similar fashion.
OWD, You strike me as someone who would write articles for Destiny Failed. CloTis make up shit all the time, so don’t go and make all Cleriths look like lying wackjobs with no valid arguments.