Frequently Asked Questions Regarding Dissidia Final Fantasy – An Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD & Makoeyes987
by Makoeyes987 October 23, 2009 0 commentsAs if it weren’t apparent from our site’s coverage, Dissidia: Final Fantasy is a game that’s very close to my heart. And as it turns out, it’s a game that’s very close to Squall_of_SeeD’s heart too.
So it was only natural that the two of us would geek out and combine our resources and compile a FAQ of the most commonly asked questions regarding the game that celebrates Final Fantasy’s 20th Anniversary. Below you’ll find this site exclusive FAQ, the fruit of our research and understanding. Enjoy, and hopefully it’ll allow you to further enjoy the game and it’s storyline!
*Q: What are the Crystals in Dissidia Final Fantasy?
The crystals are the embodiment of the harmonious power wielded by Cosmos, the Goddess of Harmony. They allowed the heroes to exist within the world of Dissidia, even when Cosmos herself was killed by Chaos.
Cosmos surrendered her power to the heroes, in order to fully put an end to the cycle of conflict. By giving them her power to fully defeat Chaos and give him a true death, she hoped to finally end the endless cycle of battle, and restore the universe’s order.
Each crystal could only manifest to a hero, when their strength and resolve was at its peak while facing off against their respective opponent. By obtaining a crystal, the hero proved themselves worthy of wielding a portion of Cosmos’s power.
The shape and appearance a crystal took for each character, referenced a particular type of crystal from their originating story.
*Q: What was Emperor Mateus’s plan in Dissidia?
The Emperor’s original plan was to use Jecht, who had been a warrior of Cosmos, as the means to ensure his own survival once Chaos eradicated everything.
Though he was brought over to Chaos’ side, Jecht still had a bond with Cosmos and the light, and, thus, when he fought Tidus, both of them received a crystal. However, the Emperor captured the light of Jecht’s crystal for himself.
Due to Jecht’s allegiance with Chaos and his unwilling connection to darkness, the Emperor was able to use the crystal he created from that light for the same purpose as the crystals Cosmos had left with the heroes — to preserve himself after the death of the god whose side he fought upon, Chaos. Basically, by using the dark crystal Jecht’s bond with Tidus created, he was able to ensure that should Chaos disappear, he would still exist and be able to re-shape the universe as he saw fit, becoming the new god himself.
*Q: What were Sephiroth’s intentions in Dissidia?
The villains of Dissidia each held a personal goal that allowed them to overcome their differences in order to enact their plan to ensure Cosmos’s demise. One schemed the world’s return to the Void, while another wished its ultimate destruction, while others intended to survive the conflict’s end and fashion a new world with themselves as its sole ruler. But one particular villain’s goal was opaque compared to the rest…what were Sephiroth’s intentions within Dissidia? Did they go beyond merely settling his grudge against Cloud?
In Destiny Odyssey scene 50, Emperor Mateus and Ultimecia approach Sephiroth, hopeful in persuading him to join their plan in fashioning the demise of the gods. Sephiroth rebuffs their invitation and walks off. However, as seen in Cloud’s Destiny Odyssey, he clearly participates in Cloud obtaining his crystal, and goes so far to state that he led him to it… as if he intended and desired for Cloud to achieve his goal in the first place. Why would Sephiroth purposefully go forward with the Emperor’s plan of guiding the heroes to their individual crystals, after clearly stating he was not interested?
Sephiroth’s true intentions lie within his desire to be free of the conflict of the gods and allowed back to his originating world, so that he can continue to be the master of his own destiny. As stated in Destiny Odyssey II-7, Sephiroth sees the members of the conflict as “Mere puppets who cannot see their own strings.” In the previous cycle of conflict between the gods, Sephiroth was not content merely playing his role as an emissary of discord. At the end of the previous cycle, Sephiroth ended his own life to see what truth lied in a world he felt was full of illusions.
At some point, he became aware of the cyclical nature of the conflict, and believed that despite his death, he would return again. As shown in Shade Impulse Chapter 3-2, Sephiroth did not fear his demise, believing that the spirit would live on as spirit energy, instead of merely vanishing. A metaphysical perspective that is consistent with the world he originated from.
In the end, he realized that for him to truly be free to control his own destiny (and the destiny of others in his originating world), the heroes had to succeed in eliminating Chaos. Sephiroth coyly discusses with Garland, what fate would befall each of the worlds should Chaos truly be defeated, hinting at his desire for reality to return to what it once was. For that reason, Sephiroth played his part in Emperor Mateus’s plan while simultaneously allowing Chaos’s own forces to deliberately sabotage themselves.
In Destiny Odyssey scene 32, Sephiroth is shown to be aware of Golbez’s betrayal to Mateus’s plan. However, he remained quiet on the subject so that Golbez could continue allying himself with the heroes and working against his fellow warriors of Chaos. All this was done, so that he could be allowed to return home. After all, Sephiroth had his own personal plan to ensure his immortality and godhood…Geostigma.
In his final confrontation with Cloud in Shade Impulse, upon his defeat, Sephiroth ominously references his intent to face Cloud once more. Explicit references are made to his plan to use Cloud as a way of ensuring his return once again, as expressed in the Lifestream Black novella, where he states:
As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back…
In the end, Sephiroth’s true intent and desire in Dissidia was the fulfillment of his own ambitions. This included Chaos’s defeat and the success of the heroes so that he could return to the Gaia of FFVII, and enact his own plan to ensure his resurrection and the completion of his original goal of godhood.
*Q: Why do some of the villains remember the previous turn of the cycle, but others do not? Also, none of the heroes do. Why?
Retaining one’s memories from a previous turn of the cycle to the next seems to be dependent on being “wrapped in some strong emotion” (per Chaos Report #6) and being alive at the time of the new turn’s beginning. Thus, the heroes — who lost the time before — would have never remembered the previous turns of the cycle before. Sephiroth — who killed himself at the end of the previous turn of the cycle — did not remember things until very late in Shade Impulse.
*Q:Why did Chaos have a dream about governing the world alongside Cosmos?
In the distant past, Chaos was a god who ruled along side Cosmos, and suppressed discord, destroying only when it was necessary. However, as shown in Chaos Report 1, the Lufenians wanted to fully utilize and control the power of discord for themselves, and thus, removed Chaos’s memories of his purpose, and made him the total destroyer we see him as in Dissidia and FF1. The creation of Garland was apparently the result of Chaos losing his memories. Given the Final Fantasy theme of memories as life and power, it is likely that the memories extracted from Chaos themselves became the being known as Garland.
*Q: Who is Garland really?
Garland is the manufactured being talked about in the Cosmos and Chaos Reports who had control over the ethereal discord and was used as a tool of war for the Lufenians. He’s likely the “new being” created by the Lufenians when they wiped Chaos’s memory — the “one of harmony that could subdue and control discord.”
*Q: Who is Warrior of Light really? And what is his past?
The past and identity of Warrior of Light is truly a mystery. Even to himself. As stated by himself, he has no memory of his past, his name, or where he even is supposed to go.
The Guiding Light accessory, which is necessary to create Warrior of Light’s final exclusive weapon, gives a telling message to presumably, Warrior of Light himself:
Lukahn prophesized: a nameless warrior guided by the light will purge the chaos from the world.
So whoever the Warrior of Light is, is a purposeful enduring mystery within the scenario of Final Fantasy and Dissidia Final Fantasy.
*Q: What is the sword the Warrior of Light uses in Dissidia?
The heroes of Dissidia each carry and wield their iconic weapons from their respective stories. Cloud wields the Buster Sword, Squall wields his Revolver gunblade, Zidane uses two Mage Mashers, Firion wields the Blood Sword, etc. But what of the Warrior of Light? He has no iconic weapon from his previous game in Dissidia.
…Or does he?
Here is a screenshot from the PSP 20th Anniversary edition of Final Fantasy, showing the Warrior of Light wielding the sword Excalibur.
The sword the Warrior of Light is wielding in Dissidia appears to be the Excalibur from Final Fantasy. The designs of the weapon in both games are extremely similar.
*Q: What are the weapons used by the Onion Knight in Dissidia?
As with the Warrior of Light, the Onion Knight of Final Fantasy III did not have an iconic weapon from his original game. The two swords the Onion Knight uses in Dissidia are from the Amano cover illustration from Japanese boxart for the game.
But do these swords appear anywhere in Final Fantasy III? I’d say yes… At least, in the DS remake.
Two swords that appear in Final Fantasy III for the DS resemble the yellow and red weapons from Amano’s artwork of the nameless Warrior of Light on FFIII’s cover.
The yellow sword held by Onion Knight Luneth is the Ragnarok. The red sword held by Ninja Arc is the Muramasa. And the staff held by Sage Ingus is the Elder Staff. The colors and blade shape of both swords strongly resemble the stylized weapons Onion Knight wields in Dissidia.
What’s also interesting is that the Muramasa is a Ninja and Dark Knight exclusive weapon. Furthermore, the Muramasa is only awarded by the Legendary Swordsmith in FFIII DS when the Ninja job class is mastered. The fact that Onion Knight only wields this sword when class changing to a Ninja seems to further cement that this is the sword’s true name.
In regard to the Sage’s staff in Dissidia, the staff held by Sage Ingus is the Elder Staff, and bears a slight resemblance in terms of its shape to said staff used by Onion Knight in Dissidia. However, the strongest matches in terms of weaponry lie with the Ragnarok and Muramasa weapons.
*Q: Who is the “Great Will?”
In a metatextual capacity, the player is identified as the Great Will at the end of Inward Chaos. As far as the story itself goes, however, Cid of the Lufaine is confirmed as the Great Will in the Chaos Reports, specifically Chaos Report #10. Earlier hints to this came from Garland telling Chaos that he had guided him “in accordance to the Great Will’s wish,” while Chaos Report #4 had Cid mention that he’d gotten Garland to agree to “stand at the right hand of discord.” As well, both Shinryu’s profile in the Museum and Shinryu’s brief dialogue with Chaos near the end of Shade Impulse makes it clear that he had been assigned a task by the Great Will. In Chaos Report #3, Cid mentions that he’d made a pact with “a certain dragon wandering through space and time” (Shinryu).
*Q: For what purpose was Cid trying to turn Chaos into the “ultimate weapon?”
To get revenge on the world for what happened to himself and his wife as revealed by her in the Cosmos Reports. The reason the cycle was necessary was because Cid wanted an absolute ending — the destruction of all reality. He needed Chaos — “the ultimate weapon” — to do this. But Chaos winning the war wouldn’t alone achieve this. Cid had to get rid of Cosmos for good so that Chaos would despair and destroy himself.
To deliver an absolute death to the gods, they had to choose to die. Cosmos had to kill herself by dividing her power into the 10 crystals. Once she was actually dead, Chaos would feel despair and decide to end his own life, along with the universe.
*Q:How is Cosmos alive during the Secret Ending?
The defeat of Chaos returned all that was lost from the discord he controlled. Presumably, this included Cosmos, and because of that, harmony was allowed to once again take control and restore all that was lost. As Cid said in the Secret Ending of the game, there will be conflict as long as the world exists, for harmony and discord are concepts born of the human mind — so as long as there are people, there will also be the embodiments of those concepts, Cosmos and Chaos. Since Chaos failed to destroy the universe prior to his death, there was still life — and with everything lost to the discord then restored, so too was Cosmos. Which would then tie into the plot of FF1 being allowed to finally resolve.
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“Dogmatic”? Right. Because the FAQ wasn’t a result of extensive debate or anything, along with concessions on more than one side.
Dude, if you’re done debating, then just stop posting. If you can take the time to keep coming back to throw out a paragraph or two, you could take the time to actually respond to the things that were said to you in the debate.
But, then, you refused to do that even while the debate was still running. So, really, pick one or the other.
I’m notoriously bad at leaving arguments when they’ve gone south. You might say I’m troll bait. Regardless, this will be my last post.
Hmm…[email protected].
Anyone wants a debate, they can find me there. It should be obvious by now, but I’ll spell it out anyway: I have no intention of responding to points made alongside of accusations against my character.
Partaking in this disussion has given me the urge to bathe.
In other words, folks, prepare for him not to reply once you’ve pointed out that he’s using debate fallacies. Somehow, calling out the other person ignoring a question you’ve asked three times is “character attack” and an “ad hominem” fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Rather than, you know, legitimate debate and a simple request that they stop pissing in your face while you try to have a conversation with them.
I know I claimed my last comment was my final comment, & if the editing feature wasn’t retarded, it would be, but I wanted to present this:
http://degosroleplaying.aceboard.com/forum2.php?login=231338&rub=10678&cat=9029&page=0
It may not be as fancy as the one here, but it is an effective way to plead my case.
As before, if you want to contact me about this, you can contact me via E-mail, on the forum in the link, or–as much as I’m ashamed to admit it–the FF Wiki.
Responses posted here will be ignored.
Thank you in advance.
I realize he isn’t going to respond again, but I’m going to go ahead and point out some flaws in Lithpy’s linked posts.
In addition to what Ryushikaze mentioned below (that Cid obviously differentiates between the consciousnesses that he tinkered with and the pawns gathered by the gods) — and in addition to the question Lithpy refused to answer earlier (Why would Cosmos and Chaos need Cid to give form to their pawns? For that matter, Chaos didn’t even seem to know about the Great Will at all when Garland talked to him about Cid) — I have these observations to make:
–“Take, for instance, the case of Cecil being able to switch between Paladin & Dark Knight. … But Cecil cannot do this in The After Years.”
Can’t or doesn’t? Cloud doesn’t use Meteorain in Advent Children, even though he does in both FFVII and Dissidia. As AC would need to take place after Dissidia for Cloud, is this somehow a contradiction — or did Cloud just choose not to use the ability?
–“There’s also Kefka’s God form not being the source of all magic…”
So, Kefka with the power of the Warring Triad should be the source of all magic for entities other than just those who came from his world? He should be the source of Chaos’ magic, Comsos’, etc.?
–“… Kuja not remembering Zidane saving his life …”
Where in Dissidia does Kuja express a lack of memory about Zidane wanting to help him before — rather than surprise at Zidane wanting to help him after Kuja has tried to kill him again?
Should the heroes not be surprised when they learn that the villains keep being returned to life, even though — if authentic — they’ve all already been brought back to life again to take part in Dissidia’s conflict anyway?
–“… Sephiroth’s removal from the Lifestream preventing Geostigma ….”
Which wouldn’t be a continuity issue to begin with given that FFVII’s world had been shattered and a chunk of it shoved into the amalgamation that is Dissidia’s world anyway. Obviously, after Dissidia is over and everyone goes back where they belong, Sephiroth would be back in the Lifestream where he came from, causing geostigma.
–“… and other continuity problems.”
Still waiting for those to be identified.
–” These don’t exist if the characters are creations based on the consciousness of existing beings.”
It creates other problems, though — namely, Cosmos and Chaos are somehow incapable of giving form to their pawns even though they can shatter dimensions and combine worlds. Likewise, Chaos knows nothing of the Great Will that is using Garland to manipulate him, even though your argument requires that said being *gave him his warriors*.
As well, we’re left to question why Kuja is new to the cycle of conflict if Cid isn’t still performing the manikin experiments.
Not to mention how it contradicts everything the narrative tells us about the characters’ memories and the notion of them going home. It would, quite simply, render a great deal of the story irrelevant.
–“The Cosmos Reports detail an interview with Cid’s wife.”
It wasn’t his wife, actually. It was whoever inherited the memories of Cid’s wife from the memory successor ceremony mentioned in Cosmos Report 8.
–“The Lufenians were opposed by an empire that had powerful summons and weapons such as Omega. They tasked Cid and his wife with creating a being that could use the power of Discord.”
There’s no indication that Cid’s wife was part of the process of creating the living weapon.
–“[But the Intro Says, ‘Cosmos & Chaos gathered warriors from all lands….’ How do you explain this?]
I know what it says. The problem is that we can’t ignore important backstory material because of what is said in the premise.”
Yet Cid himself mentions in Chaos Report 5 that he observed the gods gathering their pawns.
–“Gabranth states that there is an actual exit to this realm. As such, the characters are not magically revived from the dead, except at the end of the cycle.”
The Emperor dies in Destiny Odyssey scene 92 (he discorporates into dark smoke, as in every other instance where he dies) and is alive again in DO scene 93. Furthermore, he directly states in Shade Impulse scene 19 that the villains would keep coming back *from the dead* (“from the dead” is specifically stated) as long as Chaos was around.
–“What is the Significance of the Other Story Modes”
I think you put a little too much weight on optional modes that obviously couldn’t have happened during the events depicted within Dissidia. You also describe at least one of them inaccurately.
–“Inward Chaos is explained matter-of-factly by Shinryu. He took the strongest incarnations of all of the warriors, as well as a version of Chaos that had never known defeat, just to see if the ‘ultimate chaos’ could be stopped.”
Shinryu doesn’t mention “the strongest incarnations of all the warriors” at all — only a “Chaos that has never known defeat.” In any event, he even describes such a version of Chaos as a contradiction (“This is a fantasy that ought not exist…”), and explicitly states that this “fantasy” would have taken place *after* the events of Dissidia anyway: “The instant Chaos was destroyed, the power of discord distorted the fabric of time and space, creating a new realm of possibilities… .”
In other words, the heroes have already departed for whatever lands they’ve departed for.
Which, by the way, begs the question: If you don’t think the heroes are real, where do you believe they were returning to in the ending?
–“To finally get around to answering the question, there is material within the game that suggests that it is canon. I hear there are also Word of God statements that specify that it is, but I have yet to verify that.”
Those statements are in this very article.
Well, there’s a spoiler of FFVI. Dammit, I need to catch up on FFing.
Anyway, while Exdeath’s intentions seem about right, I had a bit of impression that DFF would be earlier in Bartz’s life, due to his seemed age. There are things that conflict with this, such as access to the Mime/Mimic class and the Brave Blade, but he just seems younger, especially in build and voice. My DFF-based reasoning came from Jecht’s unique taunt, about this being his first adventure or somesuch. I’m not sure if DFF could be considered as a clear-cut instant in some of the characters’ timelines, but perhaps an amalgamation of various points.
However, those explanations about the Emperor’s plan and Sephiroth’s intention were mighty helpful, especially since we never see that crystal and Sephiroth is a bit coy.
EDIT: I like that “disembodied minds/memories” thing from the link above. A compilation of essence, I guess?
Also, a thanks for explanation on Garland’s existence in relation to Chaos. That DFF’s timeloop allowed FFI’s timeloop to become different with the appearance of the Warriors of Light is p. cool. As for the WOL’s identity, remember that the ending states that the player is the Warrior(s) of Light. Would this…make the WOL the Great Will? Could he simply be an incarnation of the player(s) of the series since its start? Or…I’unno, put something profound or valid here.
Q: Those first two cutscenes, of WOL facing a manikin and meeting with Firion, how do those figure into the story? Was the opening FMV the previous cycle, or part of this one, as I’d been assuming?
[I see what you mean about the edit being stupid.]
The link provided by Lithpy is incorrect about the characters being ‘sophisticated manikins’, and some of the evidence he posts actually shows it. Look, for example, at the opening of Chaos Report five, his basis for the claim. At the start, it has Cid noticing Chaos and Cosmos gathering their pawns and then subsequently noticing the drifting consciousnesses within the void, and only thereafter giving them form. It is later noted that the manikins, his failed and sealed expiriments are new to the conflict, and that the pawns of Cosmos and Chaos respond to them in different ways confronting and ignoring, respecively- this is a strange thing if the pawns of Chaos and Cosmos are the manikins, the failed experiments.
Further, I’d like to point out that the idea that the characters are ingenuine articles runs counter to the things implied by the narrative at nearly every turn, and such a thing would definitely have been included in the Dissidia Ultimania, which it definitely was not, in any person’s category or in general.
http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-dissidia/dissidia-final-fantasy-ultimania-translations/1822/dissidia-final-fantasy-ultimania-coverage/
In short, an interesting thought, but one unfounded, and one that is certainly a massive leap to a conclusion to arrive at in the fashion he has done.
::waits for the inevitable angry response::
Addendum: As for the edit times, that is because this is wordpress, and the comment system is intended for short responses and comments, not thorough discussions as it is currently being employed for, unlike the forums, which are intended for such, yet are not being used in such a manner presently.
And the Prologue is part of this cycle, and can be seen as the end of the battle which occurs in the opening FMV.
Re: WOL being the great will, that strikes me as over thinking what is essentially a ‘Congratulations’ message at the end of the game. If it were true, of course, it would, in a way, make all players characters the great will in some way, since it is the characters control which makes ‘the warriors of light’ the player, and the player similarly dictates events in all the other games, guiding and directing events, as noted in Inward Chaos.
As for Bartz, he’s pretty young looking to begin with in FF5, especially in his Amano Illustrations, despite his age.
–“Anyway, while Exdeath’s intentions seem about right, I had a bit of impression that DFF would be earlier in Bartz’s life, due to his seemed age.”
I agree with Ryu’s comment above. Bartz has always looked young.
–“However, those explanations about the Emperor’s plan and Sephiroth’s intention were mighty helpful, especially since we never see that crystal and Sephiroth is a bit coy.”
Glad they were helpful to you.
–“Also, a thanks for explanation on Garland’s existence in relation to Chaos.”
No problem. Thanks for reading!
–“As for the WOL’s identity, remember that the ending states that the player is the Warrior(s) of Light. Would this…make the WOL the Great Will? Could he simply be an incarnation of the player(s) of the series since its start? Or…I’unno, put something profound or valid here.”
I agree with Ryu on this one as well.
–” Q: Those first two cutscenes, of WOL facing a manikin and meeting with Firion, how do those figure into the story? Was the opening FMV the previous cycle, or part of this one, as I’d been assuming?”
My understanding is that during the Silent Presage scenes Firion and the WoL are on their way to the battle depicted in the opening FMV. As well, the FMV is part of the current cycle (Terra’s with Cosmos’ pawns, and Jecht is already fighting alongside Chaos’).
It would seem that it was during this battle that Chaos mortally wounded Cosmos, putting her in the state that the WoL finds her during the Prologue.
Remember that part where I said I had made my final post? Well, I lied. And there’s no justification this time. I’d simply made a promise then got too absorbed into this project to keep it.
Instead, I’m replacing that promise with a new one, which I certainly will be able to keep: I’ll start & stop posting whenever I damn well feel like with little to no warning beforehand.
So, here’s 2 things I’d like to say coming back into this:
1. The FAQ I created is based on highly collaborating evidence. Throwing shit at a few claims or minor details & calling it “debunked” simply will not suffice. That would be the equivalent of trying to disprove evolution by saying, “But there are still monkies around.”
2. I do hope you’ll stop throwing the phrase “intellectually dishonest” around like confetti. Understand, I am asking for neither an apology or an admission of fault/wrongness. I am simply asking for a cessation of resorting to namecalling as arguments, regardless of how correct the party thinks he/she/it/they is/are, or what justifications he/she/it/they can come up with. I don’t expect you to change tactics this late in the game, but it’s worth saying.
So, that being said, where would you like to begin?
Hola. Welcome back. Hopefully this goes more smoothly all around this time.
I’d like to begin with the points I was asking you about before:
1) How is it that Kuja is new to the cycle if Cid is responsible for the personalities of the heroes and villains — despite speaking of his experimentation with manikins in the past tense?
2) It seems unlikely to me that Chaos and Cosmos would have called these free-floating consciousnesses to be their warriors — only to then not be able to give them physical shape themselves, instead relying upon an entity that’s probably inferior to them to begin with.
The very fact of Cosmos and Chaos selecting these warriors suggests that they had physical shape when called.
3) Why you believe that Dissidia’s world could plausibly include a chunk of FFVII’s world — and others– but not the real people from those wolrds.
4) Where do you think the heroes were going in the ending if not to their homewworlds?
5) Why would the story have been written such that it talks about the heroes going back to their homeworlds quite often if this was simply a waste and not actually related to anything?
6) New question: Do you still think Cid’s wife looks like Cosmos?
Glad you’ve returned.
1 & 2) I have a section dealing primarily with the vagueness of the quote in question. I think I submitted that, for example, the characters could have already been given form and wandering around in FF1’s world with Cosmos and Chaos being none the wiser. But the fact is that it’s impossible to determine a chain of events if the game doesn’t give us one.
3) This is addressed in the FAQ. Despite the claim that no such assertion was made, I DID in fact find the conversation where Garland hints at the possibility that the worlds the chunks are from did not in fact even exist yet. Beyond “possibility,” however, he’s pretty tight-lipped about it.
4) It really doesn’t matter. They could be disappearing altogether, returning to their counterparts’ subconsciousness, or turning into frogs & heading to Wonderland to do the polka, in the grand scheme of things.
5) Why would it be “a waste and not actually related to anything”?
6) I’ve retracted my retraction & now believe that the clone of Cid’s wife is to Cosmos what Garland is to Chaos. Aside from the main idea of that section, my reasoning for this is similar to your reasoning for # 5: If this is untrue, there is no point in that clone’s existance. It is completely irrelevent to the stories of Dissidia, the Reports, and FF1.
7) Almost forgot, the claim that there were Word of God statements expressing the game’s canon in the article itself. I did briefly browse this before posting that, & I saw nothing that definitively stated such. I saw mostly things like “this is a true FF title,” which could just as easily mean “true in the spirit of things.” So, unless there’s a more literal statement, I can’t really add it.
I won’t get into the whole of this all, but the Clone of Cid’s wife does hold a role without having anything to do with Cosmos- it can emotionally control Garland while being an obedient puppet itself.
It would be a waste to imply that the heroes are the same ones as their histories suggest, that they are going home to their own world, as far as the very end of the tale, with them actually being fake, there’s no payoff of that narrative implication anywhere. It’s setting up a plot thread goes absolutely and positively nowhere.
Unrelated~How do I get an avatar that isn’t a sad face?
The thing is that “payoff of narrative” is empty rhetoric, especially when you consider that it’s what the text SAYS, regardless of whether or not it feels cathartic.
I will say this: Kuja being new to the cycle is the biggest problem with my theory. However, it’s still not a very big problem. It’s nothing but a slight indescrepency, it doesn’t directly contradict anything.
The clone of Cid’s wife literally plays no role. It’s never even used. In fact, it’s never FINISHED. You could take it out of the story & it would be just the same. So, why mention at all?
The text doesn’t say ‘the heroes are mere copies’ either. It says ‘Some of my copies started questioning their own existence’ and it ALSO says ‘the pawns of Cosmos and Pawns of Chaos recently encountered my old failed expiriments’, specifically referring to the failed expiriments as distinct from the pawns. It also says Chaos and Cosmos called the consciousnesses themselves. It says nothing even hinting Cid was needed to give them form. That is the conclusion you seem to be drawing from the text, but that is not a parsimonious suggestion.
And no, narrative payoff is not empty rhetoric. If the characters are fake, you’d expect something far more concrete than, Oh, I made these bodies for these free floating consciousnesses, but they were failed, a few of them became self aware’ and for these failed expiriments not to be referred to as a different group than the pawns that Cosmos and Chaos drew forth on their own.
And no, the clone never got to be used, but that’s what it was going to be used for. It requires no link to Cosmos to have a purpose to the Lufein.
You don’t throw a plot device in there and then not have it be used. If you needed to alter the story in some way to include a clone, that clone must be important.
In fact, here’s my entire list of reasons for the clone being Cosmos:
1. A being who controls discord, while able to manipulate it, would not have a “diametric nature” with it.
2. This explains the memory loss of Chaos.
3. This also explains the quote “Cosmos and Chaos are both created beings.” It doesn’t say they are “personifications of peoples’ thoughts,” it says they were created.
4. The fact that there’s a clone of Cid’s wife at all is odd. Why mention it if it isn’t significant?
The game says that some of the copies began questioning themselves. It identifies the failures as the Manikins. Unless you assume that this first statement is some kind of red herring, the conclusion is crystal clear.
It doesn’t say ‘Cosmos and Chaos are created beings’ but the very concepts they represent are inventions of man.
The clone is a plot point that’s important to Garland. It does not have to be important to the overall story any more than Firion resembling Zack does. It just has to have a significance, not a massive one. And this plot device DOES have a use in the story- it spurs Cid and Wife to act.
The copies as a whole are the failed expiriments. He makes no distinction at all between failed or unfailed expiriments. He seals them all away just the same. And later they as a whole are referred to as a different group entirely from the pawns of C and C. And furthermore he only even begins making them after noticing Chaos and Cosmos calling their own pawns forth.
With all that, PLUS the fact that Kuja and a lot of the Cosmos side are new means they cannot be mere copies of the originals created by Cid, who was well done with the failed experiment long ago.
Unrelated~How do I get an avatar that isn’t a sad face?
(Damn editing feature.)
“It doesn’t say ‘Cosmos and Chaos are created beings’ but the very concepts they represent are inventions of man.”
Yes, it does. The Reports literally state, “Cosmos and Chaos are both created beings.”
“The clone is a plot point that’s important to Garland.”
No it’s not. Garland was never sent out again. This makes the clone unimportant. Furthermore, even if he was, some other method could have been used to force him. Blackmail. Orders. Mind control. Three simple possibilities all of which are less complicated than a clone of his foster mother. The fact is that the story is SPECIFICALLY written to include this clone, who apparently never does anything. Don’t you find that odd? Furthermore, you ignored the “diametric nature” portion of my reason list.
“It does not have to be important to the overall story any more than Firion resembling Zack does.”
He does what now?
“it spurs Cid and Wife to act.”
Except they would have acted anyway. They were acting to escape prison and help Garland. The clone was not necessary.
“The copies as a whole are the failed expiriments. He makes no distinction at all between failed or unfailed expiriments. He seals them all away just the same.”
No, he specifies that he sealed away the failed experiments, then he says that his failures were being used by Chaos.
“With all that, PLUS the fact that Kuja a lot of the Cosmos side are new means they cannot be mere copies of the originals created by Cid, who was well done with the failed experiment long ago.”
Kuja being new to the cycle does not mean that the Manikin was created then. It also does state that Kuja was anywhere before this point that would contradict the theory. Your conclusion does not follow.
“Yes, it does. The Reports literally state, “Cosmos and Chaos are both created beings.”
Actually, it says ‘Harmony and Discord’ are created beings. Harmony and Chaos are used when referring to the concepts or natures. It means both of them are essentially formed by the human mind, much like how Eidolons in FF9 are given form by human myth, but are not ‘created’artificially.
“No it’s not. Garland was never sent out again. This makes the clone unimportant. Furthermore, even if he was, some other method could have been used to force him. Blackmail. Orders. Mind control.”
Hint: that the clone was created to control him suggests those, if tried, did not work. He was ‘never sent out again’ because they wanted to ensure their control of him, given how powerful he clearly was.
“Three simple possibilities all of which are less complicated than a clone of his foster mother. The fact is that the story is SPECIFICALLY written to include this clone, who apparently never does anything.”
The clone was never finished. They had one that wasn’t complete but resembled Cid’s wife a decent bit, as detailed in CoRep6. It was made to control Garland where his mother had refused, as is explained in previous reports.
“Don’t you find that odd? Furthermore, you ignored the “diametric nature” portion of my reason list.”
Actually, I didn’t. But it was essentially a non starter of an argument. Harmony and Discord are Diametrically opposed. They are like Yin and Yang. Diametric but not antagonistic.
“He does what now?”
Resembles Zack.
“Except they would have acted anyway. They were acting to escape prison and help Garland. The clone was not necessary.”
The Clone is what spurs them to act. Cosmos Report 5 says CiWife hears about this expiriment, realizes how desperate and deranged the Lufein are, decides not to allow it to pass, and decides on a course of action.
“No, he specifies that he sealed away the failed experiments, then he says that his failures were being used by Chaos.”
Actually he doesn’t say that at all. Just that ‘someone’ has found a use for them to disrupt the balance between harmony and discord, and that the pawns of both sides react differently.
“Kuja being new to the cycle does not mean that the Manikin was created then. It also does state that Kuja was anywhere before this point that would contradict the theory. Your conclusion does not follow.”
This is nowhere near supported enough to be a ‘theory’. Your conclusion decidedly does not follow.
Let me quote ChRep5. “While observing how they acquired pawns to fight in their conflict, I found that a great number of the consciousnesses had drifted to this world from other dimensions.”
In short, because Cid observed Cosmos and Chaos acquiring their pawns, he became aware of of consciousnesses he fashioned into the manikins.
The aquisition of pawns occurred before Manikins even became a gleam in Cid’s eyes. So why do the gods suddenly need his help to get more?
Hurf durf, the manikins are the heroes and villains of the previous cyclez!
Is that a joke? I’m not following you.
He was making fun of you, genius.
I might not have known because non sequiturs are not funny. Taking something I never said & applying lolspeak & sarcasm to it is about what I expect from this site’s shining wit, of course.
Sorry, skipped a section & forgot to come back to it:
“Actually, it says ‘Harmony and Discord’ are created beings. Harmony and Chaos are used when referring to the concepts or natures. It means both of them are essentially formed by the human mind, much like how Eidolons in FF9 are given form by human myth, but are not ‘created’artificially.”
A valid argument, but is it a sound one? What collaborating evidence do you have to support this interpretation?
For some reason, my last comment didn’t send. No matter, I can re-type it:
“Hint: that the clone was created to control him suggests those, if tried, did not work. He was ‘never sent out again’ because they wanted to ensure their control of him, given how powerful he clearly was.”
Only it suggests nothing of the sort. There’s no logical connection there. This is merely an assumption. An assumption that would work, yes, but one that is unsupported. Furthermore, even if that was true, it’s odd that the story is SPECIFICALLY written so there MUST be a clone which does absolutely NOTHING.
“Actually, I didn’t. But it was essentially a non starter of an argument. Harmony and Discord are Diametrically opposed. They are like Yin and Yang. Diametric but not antagonistic.”
My point exactly! If Garland were the “being of harmony,” this passage would not make sense. Sure, he can manipulate and control discord, but he doesn’t have a “diametric nature” with it. There’s also nothing that suggests he’s even in power with Chaos, but the narrative specifically states that Cosmos IS.
“Resembles Zack.”
Don’t be that guy. HOW does Firion resemble Zack?
“Actually he doesn’t say that at all. Just that ’someone’ has found a use for them to disrupt the balance between harmony and discord, and that the pawns of both sides react differently.”
The full quote is much less vague:
It seems someone has found a use for
the failed experiments I sealed into the
Interdimensional Rift.
These soulless pawns are used as tools of
war, destroying the delicate balance between
harmony and discord.
Yet the pawns of harmony choose to stand
and face this challenge, while the pawns of
discord fight on, groping towards an
understanding of the truth behind this world.
It specifies that the pawns of HARMONY are fighting the failures.
“This is nowhere near supported enough to be a ‘theory’. Your conclusion decidedly does not follow.”
Only my premise has nothing to do with Kuja. Therefore, you have insufficient basis to claim my conclusion doesn’t follow.
“The aquisition of pawns occurred before Manikins even became a gleam in Cid’s eyes. So why do the gods suddenly need his help to get more?”
The problem is that you’re trying to debunk me with a specific chain of events, when I’ve already noted several times that the specific chronological order is vague. Also, who’s suggesting that they “needed” Cid’s help? Most likely, they were completely unaware of what he was doing.
Neo Bahamut, sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I went home from work yesterday morning, layed down with the intention of getting back up later in the day — and woke up shortly before work when my alarm went off. Not sure how that happened, but it is what it is.
Anyway, I’m here now, so let me get to responding to you.
–“I think I submitted that, for example, the characters could have already been given form and wandering around in FF1’s world with Cosmos and Chaos being none the wiser.”
Wait a second. How would that even be possible? Cid not only speaks of Chaos and Cosmos acquiring their pawns before he even began work on the manikins, but if the two of them purposefully acquired pawns — which the game tells us through Cid himself, and twice at that — then how would they be unaware of the heroes and villains (a.k.a. their pawns)?
–“But the fact is that it’s impossible to determine a chain of events if the game doesn’t give us one.”
You have to admit that where the manikins are concerned, it gives us, first, Chaos and Cosmos acquire their pawns, and then, second, Cid creates the manikins. That part is layed out in an irrefutable manner.
–“This is addressed in the FAQ. Despite the claim that no such assertion was made, I DID in fact find the conversation where Garland hints at the possibility that the worlds the chunks are from did not in fact even exist yet. Beyond ‘possibility,’ however, he’s pretty tight-lipped about it.”
Am I reading you correctly that you believe the worlds themselves hadn’t been “born” yet, but that the manikins had the memories of beings who had already lived on those worlds? Not that such a thing should be impossible given how reality was all askew, but that’s a tall order to fill, NB.
Ryu’s said this before, I think, but extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.
Also, could you post the line in question, and when it occurs? I compiled a script for the game and posted it at GameFAQs, but I don’t recall Garland ever saying something like that. The only comment I have from him about the world’s composition is this: “… This world is composed of elements collected from different realms. If Chaos were to perish, all would be released to give life to new worlds.”
–“Why would it be ‘a waste and not actually related to anything’?”
Thematic resolution and narrative satisfaction, but I don’t disagree with you that these things don’t have the final world. Even so, I would argue that they’re not altogether irrelevant either.
If the actual data seems to point to such things, then those things are probably in play.
–” I’ve retracted my retraction & now believe that the clone of Cid’s wife is to Cosmos what Garland is to Chaos. Aside from the main idea of that section, my reasoning for this is similar to your reasoning for # 5: If this is untrue, there is no point in that clone’s existance. It is completely irrelevent to the stories of Dissidia, the Reports, and FF1.”
You’re kind of confusing me now. You said that the potential for an irrelevant anomaly isn’t something to look to just prior to making this claim, but you’re using it for evidence here. Why?
–” Unrelated~How do I get an avatar that isn’t a sad face?”
Good question. I haven’t been able to change mine either.
Let me ask Mako Eyes.
::asks::
He linked me here:
http://thelifestream.net/site-usage/
Sounds like a pain in the ass and not worth it.
–“You don’t throw a plot device in there and then not have it be used.”
I agree, but I do think the clone was given a legitimate use in the plot. Besides, it’s not like we even get details on the monsters that were in the underground with Cid and his wife, or how they were able to utilize them to escape their prison.
I don’t think this is saying that those monsters are irrelevant — it’s just not putting them to great use.
Besides, like Ryu said, Cid and his wife were languishing away in grief (her own word) until they heard of the clone. So it did have a use in the story in inciting Cid and his wife to action.
–“A being who controls discord, while able to manipulate it, would not have a ‘diametric nature’ with it.”
The Chaos Reports don’t say that the being created to manipulate the discord had a diametric nature with it. Cid was talking about Chaos and Cosmos when he said “diametric nature”: “Each of the two entities overflowed with a pure,
unwavering strength. But it was precisely their diametric nature that kept the power in check and stabilized the world.”
I don’t remember if I mentioned this before, but I think the Chaos Reports make it quite clear that the being Cid created to manipulate discord couldn’t be his wife on the basis of when the clone was created. Cid created the being to manipulate discord while he was still working as scientist for the Lufenians.
The clone of his wife was created while he was locked up underground with his wife. There’s really no reconciling this contradiction at all. Cid himself said that he created the “being of harmony to manipulate discord”; Cosmos Report 5 mentions Cid and his wife being locked up, and then later mentions a project underway to create a clone of his wife — which he obviously wasn’t party to since he was locked up.
The clone is not Cosmos. There’s no way to read those lines that even allows for the possibility.
–“This also explains the quote ‘Cosmos and Chaos are both created beings.’”
–“A valid argument, but is it a sound one? What collaborating evidence do you have to support this interpretation?”
Cid specifies in the Secret Ending that “harmony and discord are concepts born of the human mind, after all.”
It’s safest to assume he’s implying that people’s thoughts are what gave birth to them, a la FFIX’s Eidolons.
–“Garland was never sent out again. This makes the clone unimportant. Furthermore, even if he was, some other method could have been used to force him. Blackmail. Orders. Mind control. Three simple possibilities all of which are less complicated than a clone of his foster mother.”
Less complicated for the plot, perhaps, but it does emphasize the importance Cid’s wife held for the child — he was the only means they had of controlling the kid.
Also, if such measures as you suggested were less complicated for the plot, surely they would have been less complicated for the Lufenians as well. Obviously creating a clone of Cid’s wife wasn’t the first or only attempt they’d made to get Garland to obey their orders.
Cosmos Report 4 even says “he would not follow the army’s orders.”
–“No, he specifies that he sealed away the failed experiments, then he says that his failures were being used by Chaos.”
To Ryu: He is right about this.
Chaos Report 5: “The failures were sealed in the Interdimensional
Rift.”
Chaos Report 8: “It seems someone has found a use for the failed experiments I sealed into the Interdimensional Rift.”
–” Kuja being new to the cycle does not mean that the Manikin was created then.”
There is a contradiction here in that, if the manikins who didn’t become self-aware are the failures, then Kuja being a manikin would only work if — at some point after being freed from the Interdimensional Rift for use as a tool of war for Chaos — the manikin became self-aware and assumed the identity of Kuja.
And that is really pushing the boundaries of plausibility, I believe.
Really, while it’s an interesting theory you hold, it simply doesn’t hold up. Not because it’s thematically or narratively unsatisfying — though that’s also the case — but because the theory is dependent upon either Cosmos and Chaos being initially unaware of their pawns walking around Dissidia’s fused world, or the two gods needing Cid to perform a feat much less spectacular than any of the feats they had already performed in creating a fused world and bringing consciousnesses from other realms together.
The theory also doesn’t hold up because the idea is itself outright contradicted by Cid’s own claim that Chaos and Cosmos gathered their pawns (opening FMV of the game, and Chaos Report 5), as well as his explicit identification of the timing of his idea of creating the manikins coming after he witnessed Cosmos and Chaos acquiring their pawns (CR5).
There’s just no *plausible* way for it to work without contradicting the statements that Cosmos and Chaos gathered their pawns themselves, as well as Cid’s own claim that he got the idea for the manikins while watching Cosmos and Chaos gather their pawns. Not to mention, it defies all manner of logic in necessitating that Cid is — for whatever reason — the only one who can give solid form to Cosmos and Chaos’ pawns, even while they’re able to shatter dimensions, create an amalgamation out of several worlds, bring dead people back to life, and bring those consciousnesses together in the first place.
“Wait a second. How would that even be possible? Cid not only speaks of Chaos and Cosmos acquiring their pawns before he even began work on the manikins, but if the two of them purposefully acquired pawns — which the game tells us through Cid himself, and twice at that — then how would they be unaware of the heroes and villains (a.k.a. their pawns)?”
They would be unaware that the pawns were Manikins.
“You have to admit that where the manikins are concerned, it gives us, first, Chaos and Cosmos acquire their pawns, and then, second, Cid creates the manikins. That part is layed out in an irrefutable manner.”
That much, yes. But who were the first pawns? When did this all take place? Where were the successful experiments in the meantime? Beyond those statements, it’s rather vague.
“Am I reading you correctly that you believe the worlds themselves hadn’t been “born” yet, but that the manikins had the memories of beings who had already lived on those worlds? Not that such a thing should be impossible given how reality was all askew, but that’s a tall order to fill, NB.”
I’m saying that the game says it’s a possibility. It never confirms or denies that claim. As Cid says, “Are these consciousness–es(?) memories of beings who existed in the past, or will exist in the future? This is something no one can know.”
“Ryu’s said this before, I think, but extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.”
My evidence is that the game says it’s possible. And, although I’ve been reluctant to lean one way or another on that issue, I will say that the fact that it was revealed late in the game at least seems to suggest that it’s the truth.
“Also, could you post the line in question, and when it occurs? I compiled a script for the game and posted it at GameFAQs, but I don’t recall Garland ever saying something like that. The only comment I have from him about the world’s composition is this: “… This world is composed of elements collected from different realms. If Chaos were to perish, all would be released to give life to new worlds.””
I think that’s what I have too. I’m sort of working off of 2 statements here. “Give life” seems to indicate creation (although not necessarily), & there’s what he says about the free-floating consciousness–es(?)
This may be something I have to re-word in editing.
“Thematic resolution and narrative satisfaction, but I don’t disagree with you that these things don’t have the final world. Even so, I would argue that they’re not altogether irrelevant either.”
Agreed. The last few of my questions are heavily steeped in thematic interpretation. That said, I usually cite Cid’s claim that “a created life is still a life” as evidence that, though they may not be the “real” characters & the real ones may not remember what happened, the characters still lived, had thoughts, trials, and tribulations, and ended up accomplishing great things.
“You’re kind of confusing me now. You said that the potential for an irrelevant anomaly isn’t something to look to just prior to making this claim, but you’re using it for evidence here. Why?”
I don’t believe I am. The Manikins would figure heavily in the plot, being enemies and, indeed, the characters themselves. The device would be in play pretty much all throughout the game.
“I don’t think this is saying that those monsters are irrelevant — it’s just not putting them to great use.”
This is true, I’d forgotten about the monsters. I suppose they do serve a function…perhaps they’re a reference of some kind? In any case, I suppose my response would be that they were at least used, while the clone was not.
“Besides, like Ryu said, Cid and his wife were languishing away in grief (her own word) until they heard of the clone. So it did have a use in the story in inciting Cid and his wife to action.”
Fair enough, but I do still believe it’s odd that it had to be a clone. The fact that the story is specifically written to include that clone leads me to believe it’s significant.
“The Chaos Reports don’t say that the being created to manipulate the discord had a diametric nature with it.”
Upon review, I would agree with you that Chaos and Cosmos are indeed the antecedent, and there is not necessarily a connection between them and the beings created by the Lufenians.
However, from Chaos Report 1:
“I searched for a final salvation. At last, I
found it…the power of discord, a power that
consumes and controls all others. Intoxicated
by its potential, my homeland asked me to
strengthen it–to use it more and more.
Yet, the one bearing that power had no desire
to destroy any more than was necessary.
Frustrated, the country culled his memories
to create a new being…one of harmony
that could subdue and control discord.”
The order of events goes with him locating the power, using it more and more, the being bearing the power not wanting to destroy, and then the country–not Cid–creating a new being.
Therefore, I believe he was refining the power by creating Garland to be used as a weapon. Garland DID display a desire to not destroy. After shit hit the fan, the country became frustrated and created a “being of harmony to manipulate and subdue discord.”
What happens after this is once again left unclear.
“Cid specifies in the Secret Ending that “harmony and discord are concepts born of the human mind, after all.””
Only it’s not. He’s specifically stating that harmony and discord are concepts that will exist as long as humans do. He does not connect that back to the gods being created via a process of personification.
How I take that is that, even without the gods, the ideas of cosmos and chaos would still exist. In fact, I do believe Chaos is dead in the secret ending, isn’t he?
“There is a contradiction here in that, if the manikins who didn’t become self-aware are the failures, then Kuja being a manikin would only work if — at some point after being freed from the Interdimensional Rift for use as a tool of war for Chaos — the manikin became self-aware and assumed the identity of Kuja.”
That would work, but I wouldn’t say it’s the ONLY way it could work. The problem is that we’re given no indication of what the self-aware Manikins were doing prior to being called.
“And that is really pushing the boundaries of plausibility, I believe.”
Yes, it is. That’s why I do not base the argument off of a specific turn of events. Any sequence of events I throw out there is meant soley as an indication of how something could happen while not contradicting the plot.
“Not to mention, it defies all manner of logic in necessitating that Cid is — for whatever reason — the only one who can give solid form to Cosmos and Chaos’ pawns,”
Not all of them. Remember Garland and WoL.
“even while they’re able to shatter dimensions, create an amalgamation out of several worlds, bring dead people back to life, and bring those consciousnesses together in the first place.”
Can they do any of this? I’ve already contended their ability to bring the dead back to life. As for the worlds, the game indicates that it’s a possibility the world fragments could have been created before the worlds themselves even exist. Finally, what if the original pawns, much like Garland and WoL, came from the same universe the gods resided in?
–“They would be unaware that the pawns were Manikins.”
That’s not really the question I’m asking. What I’m asking is “How could the pawns have ever been wandering around Dissidia’s world without Chaos and Cosmos knowing about it, since it was C&C who brought them there according to Cid?”
–” That much, yes. But who were the first pawns? When did this all take place? Where were the successful experiments in the meantime? Beyond those statements, it’s rather vague.”
I’ll grant you that it’s possible there were different pawns than any of the ones we see to begin with (with the exceptions of WoL and Garland). It’s never touched upon one way or another, but since Kuja is new, it’s possible for others to be as well, sure.
And I agree with you that the successful experiments are something of a dangling plot thread.
–“I’m saying that the game says it’s a possibility. It never confirms or denies that claim.”
Fair enough.
–“My evidence is that the game says it’s possible. And, although I’ve been reluctant to lean one way or another on that issue, I will say that the fact that it was revealed late in the game at least seems to suggest that it’s the truth.”
I guess it really falls to the understanding one takes of “give life to.” For the record, I checked the Japanese text and it’s identical to the English.
–“I don’t believe I am. The Manikins would figure heavily in the plot, being enemies and, indeed, the characters themselves. The device would be in play pretty much all throughout the game.”
Ok, I see.
–“Fair enough, but I do still believe it’s odd that it had to be a clone. The fact that the story is specifically written to include that clone leads me to believe it’s significant.”
I can understand that. I just think it was as straightforward as it appears to have been on this occasion.
–“The order of events goes with him locating the power, using it more and more, the being bearing the power not wanting to destroy, and then the country–not Cid–creating a new being.”
At the beginning of Chaos Report 2, though, Cid says “Even if I can create a being of harmony to manipulate discord …” so he was the one who did it.
–“Only it’s not. He’s specifically stating that harmony and discord are concepts that will exist as long as humans do. He does not connect that back to the gods being created via a process of personification.”
It seems to me like any time he’s talking about harmony and discord, they’re connected to the personfications. We have lines like “Harmony and discord are both created beings,” and “he will stand at the right hand of discord to see it through.”
–“How I take that is that, even without the gods, the ideas of cosmos and chaos would still exist. In fact, I do believe Chaos is dead in the secret ending, isn’t he?”
I’m sure the ideas would still be there, yes. I also think that inevitably leads to Chaos being alive again. Though he should have all his memories now and no longer be the threat he was.
–“That would work, but I wouldn’t say it’s the ONLY way it could work. The problem is that we’re given no indication of what the self-aware Manikins were doing prior to being called.”
Their absence is certainly annoying.
–“Can they do any of this? I’ve already contended their ability to bring the dead back to life.”
Well, we’re told in-game that they do all of those things — i.e. bring elements of many worlds together, cause consciousnesses from different realms to wander over to what became Dissidia’s world, revive the dead (the Emperor explains that the villains will keep coming back from the dead as long as Chaos is around; the Emperor even comes back to life between the end of one scene and the beginning of another in one case).
As for shattering dimensions, they have worlds and warriors on their sides who come from different dimensions, so it’s more or less self-evident. Plus, Chaos was going to end all existence.
“That’s not really the question I’m asking.”
I know. I didn’t answer your question because I never said anything of the sort.
“I can understand that. I just think it was as straightforward as it appears to have been on this occasion.”
I suppose the reason I’m suggesting this is because, for my premise to be true, there would have to be a being for Cosmos equivalent to what Garland was for Chaos. So, the question of whether or not the clone is significant would rest on that idea being true.
–”Quote accidently deleted.”
My take on this is that he was finishing the task that the Lufenian government started, much the same way as he was continuing to hone Chaos as a weapon even after the worlds were fragmented.
“It seems to me like any time he’s talking about harmony and discord, they’re connected to the personfications. We have lines like “Harmony and discord are both created beings,” and “he will stand at the right hand of discord to see it through.””
This isn’t really an answer, but I have to say that the language of the Reports is terrible. For instance, this. The words are used as forces, personifications, and ideas all throughout the game with no clear distinction as to when the phrases are acting like what.
“I’m sure the ideas would still be there, yes. I also think that inevitably leads to Chaos being alive again. Though he should have all his memories now and no longer be the threat he was.”
Maybe, but as a side note, wouldn’t this mean that Dissidia has to come after FF1? Afterall, Chaos/Garland do not possess their memories in that game.
“Well, we’re told in-game that they do all of those things — i.e. bring elements of many worlds together, cause consciousnesses from different realms to wander over to what became Dissidia’s world,”
We’re also given information that seems to retcon this. The plot itself questions if the worlds weren’t created as a result of the conflict, as opposed to already being in existance beforehand.
“revive the dead (the Emperor explains that the villains will keep coming back from the dead as long as Chaos is around; the Emperor even comes back to life between the end of one scene and the beginning of another in one case).”
However, I do not believe Chaos brought him back to life. I believe their connection to Chaos sustains them in a manner similar to how the other warriors’ connection to Cosmos sustains them.
He does say that as long as Chaos is around, they can keep coming back. That does not mean that Chaos is responsible for bringing them back. I think they bring themselves back, namely by fighting in the “Hell” that Gabranth oversees.
The fact that they use the Emperor to reveal this fact sort of supports this. That’s how he came back in FF2.
“As for shattering dimensions, they have worlds and warriors on their sides who come from different dimensions, so it’s more or less self-evident. Plus, Chaos was going to end all existence.”
I certainly agree that they have power over their own dimension. I’m just not so certain they have power over others.
Whoa, neat FFIX…spoiler? I like when beings of immense power exist because they’re assumed to. Kinda cyclical, if these being are powerful enough to have supposedly created their enablers.
In most situations where such is the case, the created being obviously didn’t create the believers. The idea is that the faith, psychic power, collective unconscious, what have you, en masse gives form and/or power to these beings. In many of them, it requires said belief to perpetuate them.
I know that’s the typical case (after all, lies is bad!), but I’d be all giggles inside if this man-unwittingly-created-God thing produced a being/s that actually changed reality, such that it/they created man. Oh, my, and if man stopped believing…would reality return to how it was, or would man cease to exist without their retcon-creators?
–“I know. I didn’t answer your question because I never said anything of the sort.”
I misunderstood you. Sorry.
–” I suppose the reason I’m suggesting this is because, for my premise to be true, there would have to be a being for Cosmos equivalent to what Garland was for Chaos. So, the question of whether or not the clone is significant would rest on that idea being true.”
I don’t really see why there would have to be a Garland-like entity for Cosmos.
A problem I should mention that I find with your theory, by the way, is Chaos’ dream/memory about once ruling alongside Cosmos peacefully. When was there ever a time that this could be true if Cosmos was created from his memories at the very time he lost memory of his role as a god of balance?
I also find it quite odd that your theory calls for a being created from a shard of Chaos to not only become his opposite in nature, but that it should also be his relative equal.
Cid does say that their diametric nature was the very thing that stabilized the world. It sounds like they were part of the natural ecosystem.
–“My take on this is that he was finishing the task that the Lufenian government started, much the same way as he was continuing to hone Chaos as a weapon even after the worlds were fragmented.”
Are you talking about the “Even if I can create a being of harmony to manipulate discord” quote? Why would he have been finishing the clone? It seems unrelated to his goal of destroying the universe.
That’s the reason he was trying to hone Chaos into a more powerful weapon.
It seems to me that he was referring to an amazing thing he had achieved in the past and remarking that though he was able to do that, he’s unable to perform this other amazing feat (bringing back his wife).
–“This isn’t really an answer, but I have to say that the language of the Reports is terrible. For instance, this. The words are used as forces, personifications, and ideas all throughout the game with no clear distinction as to when the phrases are acting like what.”
You are right about that. You’re pretty much left to infer on your own.
–“Maybe, but as a side note, wouldn’t this mean that Dissidia has to come after FF1? Afterall, Chaos/Garland do not possess their memories in that game.”
I didn’t get that impression from the original game. The only time ChaosGarland ever talks about memories is when he mentions that his past self/the form of him from the future doesn’t know about the time loop. He shouldn’t know about it, though, because he hasn’t yet gone to the past.
–“We’re also given information that seems to retcon this. The plot itself questions if the worlds weren’t created as a result of the conflict, as opposed to already being in existance beforehand.”
Even if that is what Garland and Cid’s comments were alluding to, we’re still dealing with interdimensional travel, either before or after the conflict.
As well, Chaos and Cosmos had to draw upon the stuff to create the amalgamated world from *somewhere*.
–“However, I do not believe Chaos brought him back to life. I believe their connection to Chaos sustains them in a manner similar to how the other warriors’ connection to Cosmos sustains them.”
That’s essentially the same thing — Chaos’ power allows for their return.
–” He does say that as long as Chaos is around, they can keep coming back. That does not mean that Chaos is responsible for bringing them back. I think they bring themselves back, namely by fighting in the ‘Hell’ that Gabranth oversees.”
Unless time passes differently there, that wouldn’t work. Mateus dies in Destiny Odyssey scene 92 and is alive again in scene 93 — which takes place only a minute or so later.
Not that it’s impossible or anything. Just convenient.
–“The fact that they use the Emperor to reveal this fact sort of supports this. That’s how he came back in FF2.”
True enough. Though it would be just as fitting to use him to reveal it since he dies more than any other villain. XD
(Now to a couple things I missed replying to earlier)
–“Finally, what if the original pawns, much like Garland and WoL, came from the same universe the gods resided in?”
Cid’s opening narration in the first FMV says that the gods acquired their pawns from different realms.
So even if one contends that the heroes and villains aren’t the original pawns, they’re still working with a set of originals that came from different dimensions.
–“That said, I usually cite Cid’s claim that ‘a created life is still a life’ as evidence that, though they may not be the ‘real’ characters & the real ones may not remember what happened, the characters still lived, had thoughts, trials, and tribulations, and ended up accomplishing great things.”
Well, we would agree on that much. But a question this raises is this: Why would the manikins have ever assumed the memories and personalities of these heroes and villains *unless* the free-floating consciousnesses that wandered over after the shattering of dimensions were, in fact, the very memories of those heroes and villains?
In other words, wouldn’t they essentially *be* the real people no matter how you slice it?
“I misunderstood you. Sorry.”
No problem.
“I don’t really see why there would have to be a Garland-like entity for Cosmos.”
It’s dependent on the details of their origin story. If Garland is the manufactured entity that becomes Chaos–rather than being derived from Chaos and just later returning to his essence–then there should be something similar for Cosmos. Of course, if this ISN’T how Chaos formed, then it is not necessary.
“A problem I should mention that I find with your theory, by the way, is Chaos’ dream/memory about once ruling alongside Cosmos peacefully. When was there ever a time that this could be true if Cosmos was created from his memories at the very time he lost memory of his role as a god of balance?”
Because I don’t think that Chaos ever was a “god of balance.” The Lufenians seem to refer to discord ironically as the cosmos. Chaos, then, is remembering a time when he was nothing but a force of nature. Since this is rather abstract, he pictures himself and Cosmos steering the world side-by-side.
“I also find it quite odd that your theory calls for a being created from a shard of Chaos to not only become his opposite in nature, but that it should also be his relative equal.”
It goes back to the Lufenians referring to discord in more the sense we would view order, which is quite odd.
“Cid does say that their diametric nature was the very thing that stabilized the world. It sounds like they were part of the natural ecosystem.”
I would agree with that, but I would add that it could also refer to introducing two equally powerful warring factions into a situation simultaneously keeping the world in the same balance as it was before. If it had been just Garland/Chaos who came into existence, one would expect the world to have already been destroyed long before Dissidia’s beginning.
“Are you talking about the “Even if I can create a being of harmony to manipulate discord” quote? Why would he have been finishing the clone? It seems unrelated to his goal of destroying the universe.”
His plan is a complicated Xanatos gambit in which Chaos kills Cosmos and then himself. Chaos would only do that if he had been worn down by over a dozen cycles of battle, as he was in Dissidia. Completing the clone by turning it into Cosmos, then, achieves exactly what he desires.
“It seems to me that he was referring to an amazing thing he had achieved in the past and remarking that though he was able to do that, he’s unable to perform this other amazing feat (bringing back his wife).”
Strictly speaking, “can” is present tense, but since we’ve already come to the conclusion that the language is poor, I’d say either could work. However, I still do not see how Garland would be a being of harmony. Pretty much the only connection he has to that section is his ability to control the power of discord. I also think the fact that he immediately jumps to the battle between Cosmos and Chaos suggests some kind of origin story.
“I didn’t get that impression from the original game. The only time ChaosGarland ever talks about memories is when he mentions that his past self/the form of him from the future doesn’t know about the time loop. He shouldn’t know about it, though, because he hasn’t yet gone to the past.”
So, then, you’re suggesting that Chaos returns to life after FF1 with his memories in tact? How does he do that when the time loop is broken and Garland is allegedly still in Cornelia?
For that matter, why was Garland apparently serving as a knight of Cornelia with designs for the crown? Was it amnesia?
“Even if that is what Garland and Cid’s comments were alluding to, we’re still dealing with interdimensional travel, either before or after the conflict.”
From certain beings, yes. Shinryu certainly can, and there were a few other characters throughout FF who could traverse the Interdimensional Rift. It isn’t something everyone does even in V, where it’s the most prevelent.
“As well, Chaos and Cosmos had to draw upon the stuff to create the amalgamated world from *somewhere*.”
That depends on what, exactly, their godly powers entail. But even if they are forced to obey the conservation of mass, or other such natural laws, I’m certain there is enough in the FF1 universe to make Dissidia’s. After that, it all becomes crazy quantum physics bullshit.
“That’s essentially the same thing — Chaos’ power allows for their return.”
Allows, certainly. But it has more to do with their link to the world than actually being revived by him.
“Not that it’s impossible or anything. Just convenient.”
Certainly, we could apply videogame logic to it & say he’s “just that awesome,” or say that time “moves at the speed of plot,” but how do you figure it was only a minute between scenes?
“True enough. Though it would be just as fitting to use him to reveal it since he dies more than any other villain. XD”
I don’t know, I think Sephiroth rivals him in that regard.
“Cid’s opening narration in the first FMV says that the gods acquired their pawns from different realms.”
It says something along those lines, I remember. However, “realm” does not mean “universe,” which is what one usually refers to when they say “dimension,” although that word usage is in fact very incorrect.
I think what they specifically say is that they gather “pawns from all lands,” in which case you run into a similar problem.
The whole thing is rather reminiscent to a translation that lead people to believe it was confirmed that the Cetra came from outer space.
“In other words, wouldn’t they essentially *be* the real people no matter how you slice it?”
In a manner of speaking. However, it would only be a reflection–possibly even a warped one–which would have no effect on the actual characters. To this end, I refer to them as “shadows” or “advanced Manikins” to avoid obfuscating that fact.
–“It’s dependent on the details of their origin story. If Garland is the manufactured entity that becomes Chaos–rather than being derived from Chaos and just later returning to his essence–then there should be something similar for Cosmos. Of course, if this ISN’T how Chaos formed, then it is not necessary.”
I see what you’re saying.
My understanding would be that Garland was simply derived from Chaos. Otherwise, Cid somehow created beings that not only represent abstract human concepts, but literally embodies them and which — in the event of the permanent death of either one — the omniverse can no longer function without.
Besides, Garland told Chaos that Chaos was the beginning for him. And if ever Garland had existed at a time Chaos did not, then one has to wonder why the universe wsan’t imperiled due to the imbalance this should create.
We see in Dissidia how things goto hell when the gods aren’t around.
–“Because I don’t think that Chaos ever was a ‘god of balance.’ The Lufenians seem to refer to discord ironically as the cosmos. Chaos, then, is remembering a time when he was nothing but a force of nature. Since this is rather abstract, he pictures himself and Cosmos steering the world side-by-side.”
I can see how that would make sense, but I think Chaos’ dream was literal. It seems too much of a coincidence that he says “I was a god that suppressed
disorder” while Cid mentions that the being who originally wielded discord “had no desire to destroy any more than was necessary” for there to be no relation there.
Just sounds like they’re talking about the same thing.
–“It goes back to the Lufenians referring to discord in more the sense we would view order, which is quite odd.”
I don’t think the Lufenians did that. Cid is a Lufenian, and he frequently refers to both harmony and discord.
–“I would agree with that, but I would add that it could also refer to introducing two equally powerful warring factions into a situation simultaneously keeping the world in the same balance as it was before. If it had been just Garland/Chaos who came into existence, one would expect the world to have already been destroyed long before Dissidia’s beginning.”
That’s part of the reason I would conclude that Cosmos and Chaos were both there from the beginning of either’s existence. For that matter, given how Chaos receives a flood of memories and becomes suicidal once Cosmos has died, if she didn’t exist at the same time he came into existence, shouldn’t he already be on his path to self-destruction?
Isn’t it Cosmos’ ongoing existence that kept him part of the order of things in the first place?
–“His plan is a complicated Xanatos gambit in which Chaos kills Cosmos and then himself. Chaos would only do that if he had been worn down by over a dozen cycles of battle, as he was in Dissidia.”
Well, what we’re told is that he does it because he’s lonely being the only god.
Plus, we can see that he gains his lost memories and isn’t happy with how things have turned out.
Also, the cycle apparently makes him stronger rather than wearing him down.
–“Strictly speaking, ‘can’ is present tense, but since we’ve already come to the conclusion that the language is poor, I’d say either could work.”
While “can” *is* present tense, it’s referring to his ability to create a being of harmony when it uses said tense — so if he did it once, he could still use “can” to refer to his general ability to achieve the task.
–“However, I still do not see how Garland would be a being of harmony. Pretty much the only connection he has to that section is his ability to control the power of discord.”
In fairness, Cosmos doesn’t have that element going for her. She might have the “being of harmony” aspect, but not the “with the ability to control diiscord” part.
–“So, then, you’re suggesting that Chaos returns to life after FF1 with his memories in tact? How does he do that when the time loop is broken and Garland is allegedly still in Cornelia?”
From my understanding, there’d always have to be a Chaos. Whether it be because he’s Garland or because he simply pops back the way Cosmos did in Dissidia’s Secret Ending — though I lean more toward a combination of the two.
I think order itself would seek to make Garland become Chaos once again. For whatever reason, he was selected to become Chaos — probably because he originated from Chaos — and I can’t imagine that whatever need he was filling in becoming Chaos the first time vanished because of the time loop being broken.
–” For that matter, why was Garland apparently serving as a knight of Cornelia with designs for the crown? Was it amnesia?”
Great questions. I doubt he really desired the crown, honestly.
I think his primary interest — whether he was even aware of it or not — was the Lute that Sarah had. He made a point to take that along when he kidnapped her.
Like I say, I’m not sure if he even knew its significance at the time, or if order itself was compelling him to take the Lute because it’s needed in the Chaos Shrine in the past.
Long story short: I think his nature as a derivative of Chaos had taken over, and that — for whatever reason — he was needed 2000 years in the past to assume the role of Chaos. Perhaps Chaos had died for some reason back then.
It’s all very vague and we can only speculate, unfortunately.
–” From certain beings, yes. Shinryu certainly can, and there were a few other characters throughout FF who could traverse the Interdimensional Rift. It isn’t something everyone does even in V, where it’s the most prevelent.”
The point I was making is that — whether the worlds existed in the past or the future relative to the combined world of Dissidia — when they go back where they came from or are born, whatever the case may be, they’re still traveling to different dimensions.
So Chaos and Cosmos’ influence clearly extends across the dimensional gulf for that if no other reason.
Furthermore, the very fact that — according to your understanding — the consciousnesses of the heroes and villains came drifting in to the amalgamated world would require that Chaos and Cosmos can reach across dimensions. We know, after all, that Gilgamesh makes use of the Interdimensional Rift to visit the various FF worlds.
–” Allows, certainly. But it has more to do with their link to the world than actually being revived by him.”
I’d attribute it completely to Chaos. After all, the heroes were supposed to vanish when Cosmos died, and she left her power behind with them in the form of the crystals to prevent this.
… And, actually, I just realized, that was the most obvious point all along in favor of the heroes and villains being the real deal/the pawns legitimately selected by Chaos and Cosmos, rather than just manikins who happened to be convenient replacements once the original pawns all died off.
The presence of their patron/matron god keeps them there.
Cosmos goes away, her chosen pawns go away. Likewise with Chaos. Mateus understood this and, thus, planned for it with Jecht’s crystal.
–“Certainly, we could apply videogame logic to it & say he’s ‘just that awesome,’ or say that time ‘moves at the speed of plot,’ but how do you figure it was only a minute between scenes?”
DO scene 93 picks up right where scene 92 ends. The Emperor died shortly before the end of scene 92, and returns only a moment into scene 93.
–” I don’t know, I think Sephiroth rivals him in that regard.”
Nah, not even close. Seph died twice in his original game — once in Nibelheim, and again at the center of the planet.
He, of course, has another death in Advent Children.
He doesn’t appear to die at all in Dissidia, though.
The Emperor on the other hand not only died twice in his original game, but his light half dies simultaneously with his dark half in Dawn of Souls, putting him up to three deaths with his original story.
And then he dies *four* times in Dissidia (once in battle with WoL, killed once by Jecht’s, once by Firion’s hand, and then a final time in Shade Impulse). So, sure, Seph’s died quite a few times, but the Emperor has died more than twice as many times as Sephiroth.
–“It says something along those lines, I remember. However, ‘realm’ does not mean ‘universe,’ which is what one usually refers to when they say ‘dimension,’ although that word usage is in fact very incorrect.
I think what they specifically say is that they gather ‘pawns from all lands,’ in which case you run into a similar problem.”
Well, the opening narration in English uses “realm” when referring to the gods and then the comment about the pawns coming from “all lands” which you quoted. I was thinking of the “realm” part being for the pawns.
In any case, looking now at the Japanese text of the line, the English version’s “distant realm” was definitely “far away dimension” (“jibun no kanata”), while “all lands” was instead “many worlds” (“amata no sekai”).
–” In a manner of speaking. However, it would only be a reflection–possibly even a warped one–which would have no effect on the actual characters.”
But on what basis would you draw that conclusion? If it’s their consciousnesses, then it’s them — right? Same as Seph was still Seph when he lost his physical body and had to do some metaphysical plotting to get another one.
Before I get back to quoting, in Bartz’s Destiny Oddyssey, he escapes from Golbez when “a light” shakes the world. What is this light? I’ve looked at synopses for the other Destiny Oddyssesys & can’t find it.
“My understanding would be that Garland was simply derived from Chaos. Otherwise, Cid somehow created beings that not only represent abstract human concepts, but literally embodies them and which — in the event of the permanent death of either one — the omniverse can no longer function without.”
Except it can & it did. Chaos/Cosmos would have been created to control their respective forces, which Dissidia paints in a far less “abstract” view. Garland even charges up with discord energy whenever he does his EX Burst.
“We see in Dissidia how things goto hell when the gods aren’t around.”
That’s because Chaos was deliberately trying to destroy the world.
“Just sounds like they’re talking about the same thing.”
Garland really didn’t want to destroy anything either.
“I don’t think the Lufenians did that. Cid is a Lufenian, and he frequently refers to both harmony and discord.”
It’s subtle, but it’s there. They view discord as some kind of controlling force of order. I think Cid calls it “an ultimate power which controls all others,” or something like that.
It’s a very cosmos-like description.
Isn’t it Cosmos’ ongoing existence that kept him part of the order of things in the first place?”
Either way, they likely came into being at roughly the same time. However, Chaos would not necessarily be on a path to self-destruction without Cosmos. Maybe he would, but through the numerous battles, Cosmos had become his reason for living. Would that be the case in the beginning? Maybe, but it’s hard to miss what wasn’t there.
“Also, the cycle apparently makes him stronger rather than wearing him down.”
I don’t see how this is the case, but I meant emotionally. When we see Chaos in Dissidia, he’s not the rage-filled Satanic figure most of us probably expected. He has an extremely fatalistic outlook on the world and is filled with empty boredom. Trying to destroy Cosmos is the last thing that really entertains him, and he seems to be almost going through the motions.
Not directly, but I was paying more attention to the word “manipulate.” The clone was created to manipulate Garland’s emotions, thereby controlling him. She keeps something of a similar role when becoming Cosmos: Her existence keeps Chaos in check.
Also, a slightly unrelated thing that I’m wondering about: Why is Garland found in the same room as the unfinished clone? Wouldn’t the Lufenians want to keep him from it at all costs?
“It’s all very vague and we can only speculate, unfortunately.”
Unfortunately. It does correspond somewhat more nicely than my “He had amnesia & got pissed off” theory, though.
“So Chaos and Cosmos’ influence clearly extends across the dimensional gulf for that if no other reason.”
I would agree with this statement.
“Furthermore, the very fact that — according to your understanding — the consciousnesses of the heroes and villains came drifting in to the amalgamated world would require that Chaos and Cosmos can reach across dimensions. We know, after all, that Gilgamesh makes use of the Interdimensional Rift to visit the various FF worlds.”
Yes & no. The explanation we’re given makes it sound almost like their call for pawns reverberated through the Rift without their express knowledge. Or maybe they used the Rift for it and it just went places they weren’t really expected.
I guess when you shout for help, you don’t really focus on a single area.
But in any case, sending a signal through space-time is one thing. I’m not sure they actually have influence on other dimensions beyond simply sending and MAYBE receiving.
“I’d attribute it completely to Chaos. After all, the heroes were supposed to vanish when Cosmos died, and she left her power behind with them in the form of the crystals to prevent this.”
I’ve always considered that a case of “Mostly Dead.”
“Cosmos goes away, her chosen pawns go away. Likewise with Chaos. Mateus understood this and, thus, planned for it with Jecht’s crystal.”
I don’t see how that translates to them being the real characters.
“DO scene 93 picks up right where scene 92 ends. The Emperor died shortly before the end of scene 92, and returns only a moment into scene 93.”
I have to be completely honest, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I don’t know what “Scene 93″ entails or when it’s shown.
And then he dies *four* times in Dissidia (once in battle with WoL, killed once by Jecht’s, once by Firion’s hand, and then a final time in Shade Impulse). So, sure, Seph’s died quite a few times, but the Emperor has died more than twice as many times as Sephiroth.”
I didn’t think that Jecht killed him. Or WoL, for that matter.
Well, the opening narration in English uses “realm” when referring to the gods and then the comment about the pawns coming from “all lands” which you quoted. I was thinking of the “realm” part being for the pawns.
“But on what basis would you draw that conclusion? If it’s their consciousnesses, then it’s them — right? Same as Seph was still Seph when he lost his physical body and had to do some ”
The consciousness is made from many different parts. Mostly, their behavior doesn’t entirely align with any one specific point in time.
–” I have to be completely honest, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I don’t know what ‘Scene 93’ entails or when it’s shown.”
Refer to this script I made for the game:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/939394/57905
The scene numbers are all taken from the in-game theatre viewer.
–“Before I get back to quoting, in Bartz’s Destiny Oddyssey, he escapes from Golbez when ‘a light’ shakes the world. What is this light? I’ve looked at synopses for the other Destiny Oddyssesys & can’t find it.”
Judging by the order of the scenes, it was Cecil he sensed. The next scene Golbez appears in is DO scene 74, and he’s still on the moon there. Cecil arrives in that scene.
–“Except it can & it did.”
Actually, what order the universe had seemed to vanish with Cosmos. Thus, we see things like Squall regaining his memories of Rinoa, Sephiroth remembering his suicide, Chaos regaining all his memories — and literally every memory of the world.
Chaos’ descent into a suicidal urge seemed to be part of that.
–“That’s because Chaos was deliberately trying to destroy the world.”
But, again, even without him doing anything, order was breaking down in Cosmos’ absence.
–“Garland really didn’t want to destroy anything either.”
True enough. I’m simply pointing out how well it fits Chaos.
–“It’s subtle, but it’s there. They view discord as some kind of controlling force of order. I think Cid calls it ‘an ultimate power which controls all others,’ or something like that.”
He called it “a power that consumes and controls all others.” I don’t think that necessarily indicates the Force. Especially since he talks about both discord and harmony in abstract terms.
–“It’s a very cosmos-like description.”
I’m confused now. Previously, you said that Garland was unlikely to be the “being of harmony” who could control discord because of the “of harmony” part not sounding like Garland or Chaos.
But now you’re saying that something explicitly called “the power of discord” — which is generally polarized against Cosmos/harmony — fits her.
That doesn’t make sense. If Cosmos can be associated with discord, then Garland can be a being of harmony.
I don’t mind the idea of associating her with discord, as I see both Cosmos and Chaos as gods of balance anyway — mostly discord or harmony, but not devoid of the lesser quality. But I just want you to allow me the same possibility when it comes to Garland.
–“Either way, they likely came into being at roughly the same time. However, Chaos would not necessarily be on a path to self-destruction without Cosmos.”
The conclusion drawn in the game is that without his opposite number, Chaos fell into despair and wanted an end to everything.
–“Would that be the case in the beginning? Maybe, but it’s hard to miss what wasn’t there.”
A fair point — but I would emphasize the game’s own emphasis on balance between light and dark (Cecil) and discord and harmony (Chaos and Cosmos). I really can’t picture one without the other given this game’s themes.
–“I don’t see how this is the case …”
That’s one of the tasks Shinryu had: fill Chaos with more power each time the cycle went around. That’s what Cid was talking about when he said he was creating the ultimate weapon.
Shinryu talks about it in the Inward Chaos script.
–“When we see Chaos in Dissidia, he’s not the rage-filled Satanic figure most of us probably expected. He has an extremely fatalistic outlook on the world and is filled with empty boredom. Trying to destroy Cosmos is the last thing that really entertains him, and he seems to be almost going through the motions.”
I agree with your assessment of his personality, but I think that’s due to his memory loss. After all, he wouldn’t remember anything more than Garland showing up to guide him.
I doubt if Chaos was even aware of the cycle. He didn’t seem to know about the Great Will/Cid or Shinryu.
–“Not directly, but I was paying more attention to the word “manipulate.” The clone was created to manipulate Garland’s emotions, thereby controlling him. She keeps something of a similar role when becoming Cosmos: Her existence keeps Chaos in check.”
I see what you’re saying, but if Garland/the child isn’t the being spoken of when Cid talks about creating a being that can control discord in CR 1 and 2, then we’re left with this question: Where’d the kid come from? Why does he control discord?
I think we, at the least, agree that whoever was created by Cid, they were created from Chaos’ memories and are the reason he doesn’t recall his purpose, right?
–“Also, a slightly unrelated thing that I’m wondering about: Why is Garland found in the same room as the unfinished clone? Wouldn’t the Lufenians want to keep him from it at all costs?”
I would think they’d do just the opposite — let him be around it and think it’s his mother.
–“Unfortunately. It does correspond somewhat more nicely than my ‘He had amnesia & got pissed off’ theory, though.”
XD That actually made me laugh. “I can’t remember anything, so *I’m going to destroy the world*!”
–“Yes & no. The explanation we’re given makes it sound almost like their call for pawns reverberated through the Rift without their express knowledge.”
I don’t think so. It’s said in the opening FMV that they *gathered* the pawns for the *purpose* of war.
That sounds deliberate and aimed.
–“I don’t see how that translates to them being the real characters.”
It means that they weren’t just manikins who happened to be around to take the place of some unidentified set of original pawns that died off. They’re actually there because Chaos and Cosmos put them there, and the power of their patron/matron god keeps them there.
Without their side’s god, they vanish. The manikins, however, are never implied to have this problem.
–“I didn’t think that Jecht killed him. Or WoL, for that matter.”
Dark smoke spools off him in the same way as when Firion defeats him. That dark smoke is the apparent visual cue for a villain dying.
–“The consciousness is made from many different parts. Mostly, their behavior doesn’t entirely align with any one specific point in time.”
It shouldn’t if they come from after the end of their original games. They’d be past the phases we’re familiar with.
“The Emperor’s death & ressurrection scenes.”
Well, if all black smoke indicates death, then the characters certainly aren’t aware of it. There are several times they appear to watch a villain die, not be surprised, see it happen again, & freak out over it.
“Judging by the order of the scenes, it was Cecil he sensed. The next scene Golbez appears in is DO scene 74, and he’s still on the moon there. Cecil arrives in that scene.”
So…why did Cecil shake the moon?
” Thus, we see things like Squall regaining his memories of Rinoa, Sephiroth remembering his suicide, Chaos regaining all his memories — and literally every memory of the world.”
Wait, you lost me, why does Cosmos’s death cause memories to return? Especially in the case of Chaos, when Shinryu stated that he was gaining every memory in the world, heavily implying that Shinryu was causing it.
“But, again, even without him doing anything, order was breaking down in Cosmos’ absence.”
This assumes he wasn’t doing anything. It’s stated that Chaos was using his powers to destroy the world.
“He called it “a power that consumes and controls all others.” I don’t think that necessarily indicates the Force. Especially since he talks about both discord and harmony in abstract terms.”
It says it’s “a power.” Besides that, if it was harmony & discord in the abstract sense, it wouldn’t be the gods, which automatically renders it as a force of nature.
“But I just want you to allow me the same possibility when it comes to Garland.”
Well, it’s certainly possible, but it doesn’t fit nearly as well. One can only consider Garland a “being of harmony” in an extremely abstract notion that he never really fulfills. Meanwhile, Cosmos is literally a being of harmony.
Associating her with discord isn’t as contradictory as it first seems. The text says “subdue & control.” When one subdues something, they generally struggle against it.
Shitty analogy time: Think of it like deer hunting season. You have no actual power over the deer, but by killing the deer, you are controlling the deer population.
“The conclusion drawn in the game is that without his opposite number, Chaos fell into despair and wanted an end to everything.”
But it offers no such conclusion that this was always the case. After over a dozen of these cycles, it would come as no surprise to me that Chaos would start to consider Cosmos his reason for living. I’d imagine that, in the past, the relationship was probably a lot more bitter.
“A fair point — but I would emphasize the game’s own emphasis on balance between light and dark (Cecil) and discord and harmony (Chaos and Cosmos). I really can’t picture one without the other given this game’s themes.”
Balance is a conscious process. It was lost when Cosmos died, so it is not necessarily true that the world was always in a constant state of balance.
Besides, depending on how the whole Rift thing works, Cosmos could have come into being almost–if not exactly–at the same time as Chaos.
“Shinryu talks about it in the Inward Chaos script.”
Do you have a quote?
“I doubt if Chaos was even aware of the cycle. He didn’t seem to know about the Great Will/Cid or Shinryu.”
Interestingly enough, I had just taken the task of re-examining the standing conclusion on the characters’ memory retention. One thing I’ve noted is that certain characters–in this case Chaos–seem to be aware that they have been at war for a very long time, if nothing else.
“I see what you’re saying, but if Garland/the child isn’t the being spoken of when Cid talks about creating a being that can control discord in CR 1 and 2, then we’re left with this question: Where’d the kid come from? Why does he control discord?”
My conclusion is that Garland was literally manufactured from the force of discord, but he is separate from the “being of harmony” in the Chaos Reports. I say this primarily because Cid is tasked with “using the power of discord more & more” before being tasked with making the “being of harmony.”
This would seem odd, considering Garland seems to be designed for the express purpose of “refining the power of discord & using it.”
“I think we, at the least, agree that whoever was created by Cid, they were created from Chaos’ memories and are the reason he doesn’t recall his purpose, right?”
I wouldn’t say “purpose,” but that they are the reason for his memory loss.
“XD That actually made me laugh. “I can’t remember anything, so *I’m going to destroy the world*!””
Kind of. What strikes me is that Garland is full of all sorts of barely suppressed rage in Dissidia. I don’t see why it would subside in FF1. So, I figured that his attack on the kingdom was actually to take it over, but only because he felt like declaring war on something.
“That sounds deliberate and aimed.”
It does, but free floating Void people sounds more like a response than being summoned.
“Without their side’s god, they vanish. The manikins, however, are never implied to have this problem.”
Well, regardless of what the characters are, they responded to the calls and therefore are tied to the gods. The reason the Manikins don’t do this is likely because they aren’t “chosen.”
–”Something about dark smoke.”
I can see that. What I’d been assuming was that dark smoke simply meant fading away & was differentiated from actual death depending on how strained the villain seemed at the time.
“It shouldn’t if they come from after the end of their original games. They’d be past the phases we’re familiar with.”
Actually, it should correspond to the characters at the END of their journeys. It doesn’t. Take Sephiroth, for instance. He dies to attain some greater knowledge. His conclusion? That the soul lives on & unites with the planet after death.
This makes no sense. If he’s the real deal, he already knows this. So, why does he act like it’s some sort of groundbreaking theory?
This might overcomplicate the explanation, but I believe that the situation can be compared to a phenomenon in another Square Enix game:
Xehanort, from Kingdom Hearts, has a Heartless & Nobody that are both active at the same time. The Nobody, Xemnas, seems to have almost all of his memories in tact. On the other hand, the Heartless, while a great deal similar to Xemnas in terms of its personality & many of its memories, still does not possess the same knowledge, as it seems to actually believe that its name is “Ansem” & knows nothing of the Nobodies.
They will both behave roughly the same way in any given situation. They can both tell you about the time they sacrificed their heart for the sake of an experiment. But the Heartless is just an incomplete reflection of the actual being.
And, if it really DOES believe its identity is “Ansem,” as opposed to just using it out of habit, there’s no logical explanation for this. It’s something that the Heartless should know but doesn’t. In the case of this theory, that would be attributed to it being some sort of subconsciousness given form. Your subconscious, while very similar to you, can be unaware of things you are for no real reason whatsoever.
–“Well, if all black smoke indicates death, then the characters certainly aren’t aware of it. There are several times they appear to watch a villain die, not be surprised, see it happen again, & freak out over it.”
Yeah, I don’t think they realized on some of those occasions that the villains were actually dying.
Nonetheless, that’s definitely the recurring death animation. So Mateus dies a lot. XD
–“So…why did Cecil shake the moon?”
Your guess is as good as mine. XD
–” Wait, you lost me, why does Cosmos’s death cause memories to return? Especially in the case of Chaos, when Shinryu stated that he was gaining every memory in the world, heavily implying that Shinryu was causing it.”
Actually, Chaos himself recognized that he was gaining all the memories of the world, and was the one to make the comment.
As for it being Shinryu instead, given Squall and Sephiroth recovering their memories without Shinryu being around, I’d attribute the same cause to Chaos’ recovery.
As for Cosmos, if she embodies harmony, and she’s gone, harmony is then gone. So things that shouldn’t be happening — like Sephiroth regaining memories from before he killed hiimself, which Garland said should be impossible — begin to happen.
–“This assumes he wasn’t doing anything. It’s stated that Chaos was using his powers to destroy the world.”
It’s stated that he was *going* to. He hadn’t yet gotten around to it.
–“It says it’s ‘a power.’ Besides that, if it was harmony & discord in the abstract sense, it wouldn’t be the gods, which automatically renders it as a force of nature.”
But wouldn’t necessarily combine harmony and discord under the umbrella name of “discord” as you’re suggesting here.
Cid, at the least, seems very much aware of the dichotomy that is harmony and discord. And since he’s the one who wrote the reports, I’m going to assume that if he meant some combination of harmony and discord in the first Chaos Report, he’d have specified that he meant both.
–“Well, it’s certainly possible, but it doesn’t fit nearly as well. One can only consider Garland a ‘being of harmony’ in an extremely abstract notion that he never really fulfills.”
If he’s created from Chaos’ absent memories, however, then he fulfills it very well. He’d literally be created from the memories that remind Chaos that he’s there to negotiate balance, not to consume everything.
–“Meanwhile, Cosmos is literally a being of harmony.
Associating her with discord isn’t as contradictory as it first seems. The text says ‘subdue & control.’ When one subdues something, they generally struggle against it.”
Subduing discord would be spreading harmony, though. I’m not seeing it, man.
–“Shitty analogy time: Think of it like deer hunting season. You have no actual power over the deer, but by killing the deer, you are controlling the deer population.”
If you’re killing them, then you actually kinda do have control over the deer population. XD
–“Balance is a conscious process. It was lost when Cosmos died, so it is not necessarily true that the world was always in a constant state of balance.”
Well, given how quickly it goes to hell without balance … XD
But, really, if the balance wasn’t part of the natural order, why would Cid even be written to tell us that the gods’ opposition to one another stabilized the world?
–“Besides, depending on how the whole Rift thing works, Cosmos could have come into being almost–if not exactly–at the same time as Chaos.”
Oh, God. That would give us *another* time paradox.
While I don’t exactly have a counter to that suggestiobn, I do have a plea to Square that there be no more of these plot devices.
–“Do you have a quote?”
Yeah: “Into the endless emptiness of Chaos’s heart, I, Shinryu, shall let flow my power.”
That script I linked you to has almost everything. It’s only missing the battle quotes and a few summon stone dialogue quotes.
–“Interestingly enough, I had just taken the task of re-examining the standing conclusion on the characters’ memory retention. One thing I’ve noted is that certain characters–in this case Chaos–seem to be aware that they have been at war for a very long time, if nothing else.”
I really don’t get that impression from him at all.
To me, he comes across as fairly new to the whole thing. After all, he’s looking to Garland for guidance and letting the Emperor make the plans.
–“My conclusion is that Garland was literally manufactured from the force of discord, but he is separate from the ‘being of harmony’ in the Chaos Reports. I say this primarily because Cid is tasked with ‘using the power of discord more & more’ before being tasked with making the ‘being of harmony.’”
Shouldn’t Cid have mentioned it if he’d made him, though? If he’s not the “being of harmony,” then what?
–“It does, but free floating Void people sounds more like a response than being summoned.”
Again, not when we have a description — from Cid himself, no less — telling us that the warriors were actually *gathered* and *from* other worlds for the *purpose* of war.
–“Well, regardless of what the characters are, they responded to the calls and therefore are tied to the gods. The reason the Manikins don’t do this is likely because they aren’t ‘chosen.’”
But your theory is that they’re manikins who were there after whoever served as the gods’ first sets of warriors.
If I understand your theory correctly, they weren’t there because Cosmos held them there — they just happened to be there when she was all out of pawns.
–“Actually, it should correspond to the characters at the END of their journeys. It doesn’t. Take Sephiroth, for instance. He dies to attain some greater knowledge. His conclusion? That the soul lives on & unites with the planet after death.
This makes no sense. If he’s the real deal, he already knows this. So, why does he act like it’s some sort of groundbreaking theory?”
He’s speculating about Dissidia’s world, I would assume — not his own. Remember, he was trying to “understand the truth of this world” according to Cid (CR 7), and “trying to find a lasting truth beyond this world’s illusions” (according to Seph himself).
As for Xehanort’s Heartless, I get the point you’re going for, but given the very circumstances we’re dealing with under your theory (Seph’s consciousness came drifting in, Cid gave it form), I don’t think we’re dealing with just a random shadow. It seems like we’re dealing with Seph himself.
“As for it being Shinryu instead, given Squall and Sephiroth recovering their memories without Shinryu being around, I’d attribute the same cause to Chaos’ recovery.”
Shinryu existed outside of that dimension, but the point is that Shinryu appeared to Chaos and gave him its power as Chaos’s memories returned. Shinryu then tells Chaos that he’s gaining a complete understanding of the conflict. This highly suggests that it is responsible.
Also, I don’t recall Squall regaining any memories.
“As for Cosmos, if she embodies harmony, and she’s gone, harmony is then gone. So things that shouldn’t be happening — like Sephiroth regaining memories from before he killed hiimself, which Garland said should be impossible — begin to happen.”
That’s kind of a stab in the dark, for a few reasons. One, Cosmos isn’t completely gone–her essence still exists in the crystals. Two, harmony would continue to exist even if she did not, as Cid says. Three, it’s not explained why Sephiroth regained his memories.
As I recall, your earlier assessment was that Sephiroth gained his memories so late in the game because, although his side won last time, he killed himself towards the end of the battle.
Both are possible explanations because there is no explanation.
“It’s stated that he was *going* to. He hadn’t yet gotten around to it.”
Even so, either Cosmos dying alone destroys the universe or Chaos was using/going to use his powers to do it. It really can’t be both.
“But wouldn’t necessarily combine harmony and discord under the umbrella name of “discord” as you’re suggesting here.”
I’m just noting that this is how the Lufenians seemed to view it.
“I’m going to assume that if he meant some combination of harmony and discord in the first Chaos Report, he’d have specified that he meant both.”
If Dissidia actually took the time specify anything, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, now would we?
“If he’s created from Chaos’ absent memories, however, then he fulfills it very well. He’d literally be created from the memories that remind Chaos that he’s there to negotiate balance, not to consume everything.”
This suggests that the Lufenians were aware of this, in which case, why would they go about the experiment in the way they did? It would be suicidal.
“Subduing discord would be spreading harmony, though. I’m not seeing it, man.”
What is stopping Chaos from consuming everything? Cosmos. Ergo, Cosmos controls discord, albeit indirectly.
“If you’re killing them, then you actually kinda do have control over the deer population. XD”
Which is my point exactly.
“But, really, if the balance wasn’t part of the natural order, why would Cid even be written to tell us that the gods’ opposition to one another stabilized the world?”
You have a scale. It’s empty. Thus, balanced.
You now put a rock on one side. Imbalanced.
You then put a rock on the other side. Balanced again.
That they DO balance out the world doesn’t suggest that they were always necessary. Rock 1 necessessitates Rock 2’s existence. Without either, it would be balanced. With both, it would also be balanced. With only 1, it would not.
“Oh, God. That would give us *another* time paradox.”
The flow of events means nothing![/Exdeath]
“Yeah: “Into the endless emptiness of Chaos’s heart, I, Shinryu, shall let flow my power.””
Where is this from, again? Inward Chaos?
“I really don’t get that impression from him at all.”
Then why utter lines like, “The world is unchanging”?
“Shouldn’t Cid have mentioned it if he’d made him, though? If he’s not the “being of harmony,” then what?”
His wife does. The Cosmos Reports detail the whole story of Garland.
And, as I said, Cosmos is the being of harmony.
“Again, not when we have a description — from Cid himself, no less — telling us that the warriors were actually *gathered* and *from* other worlds for the *purpose* of war.”
We also have Cid recalling an experiment, stating that the Manikins are failures but that there are some successes who “question their own existence.”
“But your theory is that they’re manikins who were there after whoever served as the gods’ first sets of warriors.”
Not quite. I stated that this was a possible sequence of events. My theory is that the warriors are advanced Manikins. Beyond that, I can’t deduce anything definitive from the text–only possibilities.
“If I understand your theory correctly, they weren’t there because Cosmos held them there — they just happened to be there when she was all out of pawns.”
You don’t understand it correctly, then. Regardless of what the characters are or what was or was not there before them, they were definitely summoned to serve the gods.
“He’s speculating about Dissidia’s world, I would assume — not his own.”
Possible, but not suggested by the way he phrases it. Also, he’s not the only character to have odd discrepencies. Many of them do in one way or another, & this is only from what games I know even a little bit about:
Firion–Seems to be unaware that the Emperor can come back from the dead.
Cecil–Cannot wield darkness in either IV or The After Years, which Dissidia would have to be in between if it was him.
Exdeath–Retains his nihilistic personality, but if this is the case, he should not have control of his Void powers, ’cause that’s what killed him.
Kefka–If his God of Magic form isn’t–well, the God of Magic–then what the Hell is it?
Cloud–If this is before or during Advent Children, then he somehow gets over his reluctance to fight, gains back the same problem, then loses it again.
Kuja–Ultemica tells him he’s a “flawed vessel,” Zidane decides to help him. He acts surprised both times.
Jecht–The Final Aeon is human-sized. While this seems–& to an extent is–insignificant, the Aeons are never displayed as being able to change their size.
That’s just what I’ve noticed so far.
“I don’t think we’re dealing with just a random shadow. It seems like we’re dealing with Seph himself.”
It…wouldn’t be a random shadow. It would be Sephiroth’s shadow. That’s why it behaves like Sephiroth would, takes his form, & has most of his abilities.