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This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over

by January 22, 2010 811 comments

[Administrative note: For more recent articles with further research and additional perspectives on the subject of the FFVII Love Triangle Debate, please see the following:

“This just in: A private apology to Clerith fans (in public),” by Squall_of_SeeD (posted as a retraction to and apology for elements of “This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over”)
—”Dilly Dally, Shilly Shally — An LTD Analysis,” by Squall_of_SeeD
Reflections on the LTD, by June]

Final Fantasy Seven’s love triangle debate has been raging for the better part of twelve years now, and caused no end of interfandom tensions. For those of you unfamiliar with the whole debacle, I first congratulate you on your luck in remaining free, and I next explain that it is the debate over which of Tifa or Aerith Cloud Strife loves. Many a year, and countless hypotheses have been spent trying to argue that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple despite all the best evidence, and that Cloud and Aerith have a relationship despite the latter’s unfortunate condition. For some time, the love triangle debate has been in what could aptly be described as its death throes. Today, hopefully, we can perform a mercy killing.

Just this morning, our translator Tres dias, who is translating the FFVIII keywords and character profiles, who co-wrote the Dissidia FAQ with Mako Eyes, and who has written a comprehensive FAQ on this subject, received the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario in the mail. He wanted me to be the one to make this post, and it is my honor to now provide you with his scans, and translations, of page 394 of the guidebook, on ‘For the one I love.’

The header to this section reads

For the one I love
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.

Of direct interest to we fans of Final Fantasy Seven, however, are two images and their associated text, which we have provided, zoomed in on, so those playing at home can check our work.

First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads

Secret date

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.

Nothing so amazing, no, all it tells us is that the date itself is up to player control, so no one version is ‘official,’ but the next section is not only what hopefully will make for a swift end to the LTD, but also confirms a scenario I have been arguing in favor of for quite a number of years.

As you can see, the image is of Cloud and Tifa’s night under the Highwind. That on a page entitled ‘for the one I love’ is very conclusive in its own right. The text, however, takes it a step further, and reads

The night before the final battle

Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.

Read that again. ‘without using words, [Cloud] confirms with [Tifa] that their feelings match.’ So, not only can we unequivocally state that these matching feelings are those of love, but that these feelings of love are confirmed without words. In other words, physically. So, yes, there was almost certainly sex under the Highwind that night. I do not wish to bore everyone with a regurgitation of all the related materials, but this does confirm  that yes, Cloud and Tifa’s relationship past this point are that of lovers. And that, my friends, settles the Love Triangle. Even if you don’t want to believe it.

Also of note is that this page shows all the other ‘canon’ couples in the main parties, Ingus and Sara, Cecil and Rosa, Locke and Celes, Squall and Rinoa, Steiner and Beatrix, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna in their moments of revelation. So Cloud and Tifa are certainly in good company, hugging together underneath the Highwind along all the other canon couples of Final Fantasy.

One last thing, before I go. I have one thought, from Tres himself, that he asked me to relate to everyone. That thought is, “All that’s left to say is: Abandon ‘ship!” Wise words indeed, since that ship has been undeniably sunk, if you’ll pardon the pun, by canon.

UPDATE: If you wish to see the translation of the page as a whole, please follow this link to Tres’s translations of what the rest of this page says about revelation of romantic feelings in other games, and what the box in the lower right says about displays of non-romantic feelings.

811 comments

  1. kilky
    #1 kilky 24 January, 2010, 06:22

    thanks Ryu!!
    Wonderful written!! good to see the TLD over 12 years has finally comes to the end,this is the answer FFVII players waiting for!! Cloti Forever!! XD

    Reply to this comment
    • Vendel
      Vendel 24 January, 2010, 06:24

      Honestly it was over in 1997. But you know. Shippers.

  2. Fighter
    #2 Fighter 24 January, 2010, 06:48

    Perhaps the most damning is the exact same wording used for some other undeniably canon couples on a page dedicated to canon couples. So no one can claim the “matching feelings” aren’t love.

    Reply to this comment
    • Teresa
      Teresa 24 January, 2010, 19:07

      So Locke and Celes are officially canon? whoo!

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze Author 24 January, 2010, 19:15

      Keryep. As are Ingus and Sarah, Cloud and Tifa Squall and Rinoa, Beatrix and Steiner, Zidane and Garnet, and Tidus and Yuna. And Cecil and Rosa, but we already knew that.

      Seriously, the whole page is about people revealing romantic love save for the section at the lower right, which is about other types of love. Tres finished translating the rest of the page. Give it a look.

      http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/6162/translations-from-the-ff-20th-anniversary-ultimania-for-the-one-i-love/

  3. Jombee
    #3 Jombee 24 January, 2010, 15:59

    Interesting how the first thing your sordid little minds think of is sex when all it says is”without words”

    Reply to this comment
    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze Author 24 January, 2010, 17:41

      It’s not just ‘without words’, but also that Tifa’s line ‘Words are not the only way etc.’ is described as risque and mature by the creators, which it really isn’t unless it implies something sexual or at least ‘physical’ in nature. This quote merely backs that idea up.
      To say nothing of the old ‘pan and fade to imply physical intimacy’ cinematic trick.

    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 25 January, 2010, 16:06

      and how does one convey mutual feelings to one another without using words? Did Cloud and Tifa stare at each other all night or draw pictures? XD

      Sex is the physical manifestation of showing love (without words!!)…well, its suppose to be…but you know, kids these day. *dramatic sigh*

      why is that so hard to fathom for some people? Because they were outside (oh yeah, because that’s SO hard to do…tifa was wearing a skirt, use your imagination)? There’s not some golden rule that you have to be in a bed to do it.

    • Vesper
      Vesper 19 February, 2010, 13:00

      Sordid….? hee hee.

      Anyway sex = fun and good times

      Or so I’ve heard, anyway. 🙁

    • Vendel
      Vendel 19 February, 2010, 15:21

      If your doing it right.

  4. Aniron
    #4 Aniron 24 January, 2010, 16:12

    Another good proof that Cloti is canon.

    Thanks guys! =)

    Reply to this comment
  5. Teresa
    #5 Teresa 24 January, 2010, 19:06

    “Tifa’s line ‘Words are not the only way etc.’ is described as risque and mature by the creators”

    Do you have the creators’ words translated or did I miss them? What exactly do they say (word for word)?

    Reply to this comment
  6. Falcor
    #6 Falcor 25 January, 2010, 00:41

    So then, to sum things up: the love triangle of FF7 is officially no longer open for debate because one person’s interpretation of one person’s translation of a caption to a picture from a Final Fantasy 8 strategy guide supports Cloud x Tifa if you want to read it that way.

    Oh.

    So Cloud and Tifa are meant to be viewed as undeniably in love without question or even the slightest trace of doubt, it’s just that Square-Enix consistently chooses to convey this message only through the most cryptic and esoteric means possible?

    To a fanatic it might look like Jesus’ face; the rest of us see a tortilla.

    Here’s a thought: maybe they depict Cloud’s relationship with Tifa ambiguously because it IS ambiguous. There’s a difference between undeniably-definitively-no-room-for-interpretation and “teased/hinted at”. When the bright minds behind the compilation grow a pair and show a kiss or some other eventful confirmation, THEN the debate will be over. After so much pussyfooting around the LTD, do you really think they were letting it build up ALL THIS TIME so they could climatically reveal the OTP in the caption of an FF8 strategy guide?

    Enjoy your tortilla.

    Reply to this comment
    • Ellis
      Ellis 25 January, 2010, 01:10

      1. Not one person, but quite a few translators from inside and outside the fandom confirm the same meaning.

      2. Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania: Story

      3. The message only seems cryptic to those who don’t want to see it or missed the point. The majority of the fandom seems to have figured it out just fine.

      4. When they are shown as a couple, on the page talking about all the Final Fantasy couples, and then at the bottom after these are all shown there’s even a “now here we’ll talk about types of love other than romantic”, yes, there’s undeniably-definitively-no-room-for-interpretation that it’s anything other than Cloud and Tifa are in love.

      5. They haven’t been “pussyfooting” around the LTD. They have said more than once that this scene was Cloud and Tifa revealing their feelings for one another, Tifa’s role in AC is that of the lover, they are a family and raise children, they belong together, and so on and so forth.

    • Ryushikaze
      Ryushikaze Author 25 January, 2010, 01:40

      This isn’t a ‘Final Fantasy 8 strategy guide’, but essentially the ultimate sourcebook for the first 20 years of final fantasy, and the main titles therein. This page specifically details all the on screen revelations and displays of romantic love among party members throughout the entire series. On this page, detailing said revelations, Cloud and Tifa are said to confirm their feelings together without words undeneath the highwind. The same ‘confirm their feelings’ phrase was used to refer to Locke and Celes as well.

      In other words, Falcor, the minds behind the compilation HAVE given us an eventful confirmation. One without need for words.
      But hey, you want to deny the evidence, the context, everyone, well, you enjoy your kool-aid, I’ll be making a Quesadilla with the tortilla you think I see a face in.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 25 January, 2010, 02:33

      Oh Falcor. That was so cute.

      Hopefully you are a troll and not a true believer.

    • Falcor
      Falcor 26 January, 2010, 02:03

      “Honestly, I don’t care who loves whom. I think you could imagine the scenarios that we don’t mention however you want to. You could enjoy talking about that with friends. For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don’t have any clue.” — Tetsuya Nomura

      I don’t know, that sounds like a pretty funny way of referring to a pairing that’s been supposedly been canon since the original game.

      Your take of things is just as valid as anyone else’s, but to claim that yours is the end-all-be-all of interpretations is just… arrogant. Try to have a smidgen of humility. I mean, you might not give a damn about what I have to say because we don’t share the same opinions, but Tetsuya Nomura, you respect him I assume… he has outright said that these things are open for friendly (yeah right) discussion.

      On another note, let’s assume that they do have sex under the Highwind — doesn’t that imply that everyone was watching them, given the scene the following day? Gross.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 26 January, 2010, 02:31

      I am sure glad a years old quote from some magazine interview holds just as much if not more weight than an official Ultimania. Thank you Falcor.

      Also the only implication from what you think everyone was doing while C/T were having sex is that you are an idiot.

    • Falcor
      Falcor 26 January, 2010, 02:37

      No need to start calling names.

    • Ellis
      Ellis 26 January, 2010, 10:25

      You do realize that also could have been ‘I’m not giving spoilers’ right? It’s people asking if Tifa and Cloud are still together after the game, and he’s saying he doesn’t know.

      “On another note, let’s assume that they do have sex under the Highwind — doesn’t that imply that everyone was watching them, given the scene the following day? Gross.”
      Have you even played the game? They all leave, and Cloud and Tifa have their night. They come back the next morning after spending the night with their loved ones and see them sleeping together outside. It doesn’t take much to assume what happened between two people they knew had a thing for one another.

    • Vesper
      Vesper 19 February, 2010, 13:55

      “They all leave, and Cloud and Tifa have their night. They come back the next morning”

      They only pretended to leave. Nomura told me when we met up for sake yesterday.

      Coz come on, we all know that watching Cloud and Tifa get it on ranks higher on their list of reasons to fight than their loved ones. Fucking voyeurs.

      ….I wonder how much gil Cid made when he youtube’d THAT shit. /cookie monster

    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 26 January, 2010, 13:03

      You do know Nomura is a notorious liar right? He has a habit of omitting information and lying about what’s really going on in their games. For example, when advent children was announced during its early days, Cloud was said to be living with orphans and he was staying at the church…now, is that what was really happening in AC or just part of the picture? what he said was somewhat true in the end, but the way he said it made it seem like something entirely different (something that had the clerith jumping up and down over).

      Also, that quote is very old. before, the ff7 staff would never confirm what the official pairings were because Nomura likes to keep things ambiguous…to still do that now given Crisis Core, ACC, and DC is pointless as its OBVIOUS what the official pairings are.

    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 26 January, 2010, 13:09

      I think Cid was teasing them because they were alone together and assumed thats what they did…which Tifa confirmed by getting all embaressed.

      No one was in the Highwind until early in the morning. Everyone else went to go see their special something to protect (what their fighting for). Not stare at Cloud and Tifa doing the dirty at night. They were alone and cuddled up next to each other…that’s all they probably saw and put two and two together.

    • Vesper
      Vesper 19 February, 2010, 13:40

      Yeah, no name calling. Like you didn’t accuse all the people here with the common sense to deduce that Cloud and Tifa are “2gether” crazies that see faces in tortillas… -_-

  7. Falcor
    #7 Falcor 25 January, 2010, 03:10

    I assure you that most Cleriths would happily see Cloud marry Tifa and have ten babies with her if it meant not having to come across articles like these. Think about that for a minute.

    Reply to this comment
    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 25 January, 2010, 03:57

      … I don’t think I want to think about that O_o

    • Vendel
      Vendel 25 January, 2010, 04:40

      I tried thinking about it. But it blew my logic circuits. I guess I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

    • Ellis
      Ellis 25 January, 2010, 10:00

      You don’t seem to hang out with the Clerii we do. XP

  8. Nélly
    #8 Nélly 25 January, 2010, 08:37

    Oh my fucking God….FINALLY THIS OVER , now the cleriths and Clotis fans will stop this stupid fuckn fan war …..-_- I was VERY TIRED to see this all…it was so ridiculous…
    And now finnaly I know the pairing that I support XD…and I support what is official! howrey *_* ZackxAerith and EMO-CloudxTifa 4evaaa *_*

    Reply to this comment
  9. Death Sin
    #9 Death Sin 25 January, 2010, 10:27

    This is more epic than the Spartans, I tell ye!!

    Reply to this comment
  10. Teresa
    #10 Teresa 25 January, 2010, 17:20

    “and how does one convey mutual feelings to one another without using words? Did Cloud and Tifa stare at each other all night or draw pictures? XD”

    Yeah, they probably did have sex, but I do have to say, the first time my (ex)boyfriend and I conveyed our mutual feelings, it was through some heavy kissing, but not sex XD

    Reply to this comment
    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 26 January, 2010, 14:10

      In their minds though, there was the possibility of them dying; never to have a chance like that again. so, go all out with no regrets right?

  11. Jubilee
    #11 Jubilee 25 January, 2010, 22:20

    Yo, Quexinos, man, while you’re spamming every FF forum on the net with links to this, you might want to try http://forums.ff7citadel.com/forum.php?id=4

    Reply to this comment
  12. Mii'z
    #12 Mii'z 26 January, 2010, 01:59

    ….

    Cloffie is the best and beats the rest.
    kthxbai

    Reply to this comment
  13. e_cloud7
    #13 e_cloud7 26 January, 2010, 05:21

    Sorry but I don’t agree.
    Gold Saucer date scene is optional, of course
    (btw, Aerith has the best chances of it).
    And Tifa “final scene” under the Highwind is also optional,
    it depends upon the usage of Tifa in battle. In my game it’s just a friendly nor romantic chit-chat.
    If your point is right, then why they aren’t dating in Advent Children (which is canon)? Cloud wants to live alone.
    Tifa has a fantasy of be a family with Marlene and Denzel as children.
    Cloud doesn’t want that!
    In “The Case of Tifa”, she went to Cloud’s and he was like: lolwut, what are you doing in my place? I’m trying sleep here.
    Tifa love Cloud, Cloud don’t love Tifa, he wants her atention at child, nothing more. That’s my opinion.

    PS. Cloud was my first hero and FFVII my first RPG. But now I think he is some kind of emo/very sensitive boy that like girls but… like Evangelion’s Shinji… All that said, IMHO he was very touched by Aerith.
    (sorry for my bad english)

    Reply to this comment
    • Vendel
      Vendel 26 January, 2010, 05:44

      The HW scene is not optional. And the fact that you got the ‘low’ version of that scene is meaningless. It is only the scene with high affection that SE talks about. This update is talking about C/T communicating feelings. By your own admission the scene you got cannot be the canon one because they don’t talk about much at all.

      Cloud and Tifa are beyond the dating point. They live together and raise children. AC is Cloud and Tifa at a low point. because of Geostigma and guilt on Cloud’s part. At the end of ACC he goes back to his family. And yes it is canon.

      And yes CLOUD HIMSELF calls Tifa, Denzel and Marlene his family.

      So I guess your opinion doesn’t count for much. Especially since the majority of fans AND THE CREATORS disagree with it.

    • Rinoaxyzriana
      Rinoaxyzriana 27 January, 2010, 19:02

      Yeah , But the Cloud’s word in the Ancient Temple didn’t have high or low affection for Aerith…or in the End when Cloud see the Aerith hand and say ” I think i can meet her there…or in the game when he said to Aerith “I’m here…WE are here for you” or “I remeber Aerith a lot. ecc”….mah different point of view i suppose ^^”

      first and After AC/ACC Tifa see Cloud more as a son ,her feeling have changed and she is growning up in maternal sense. The real Daddy is Barret X°°D

    • Vendel
      Vendel 27 January, 2010, 19:27

      Tifa does not see Cloud as her son. She sees him as her lover, partner and the father of the children THEY are raising.

    • Quexinos
      Quexinos 28 January, 2010, 17:20

      you seem to be willing to debate, would you be interested in signing up at my forum?

      http://killthemongoose.com/tnc/index.php

    • Syneiam
      Syneiam 7 February, 2010, 18:26

      Tifa see Cloud more as a son

      LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    • -_-
      -_- 26 January, 2010, 06:04

      Man…..Just stop to dreaming…you already have a OFFICIAL answer, NO ONE can`t erase what Square just say….if they said in the Ultimania Book that Cloud and Tifa feelings mach…they mach, if they say the highwing scene they HAVE sex, THEY HAVE, don`t matter how bizarre he things looks ( to you ).
      F*ck …they created the history, they created the characters, they created the LTD and they FINISHED THAT CHOSING TIFA. THE END.
      And don`t matter if Cloud was your first hero rpg…that says a big NOTHING , because wasn`t you that created the history, the players opinon just don`t matter , just the creator, and what they say is what is the REALITY.

      BTW I already read the The case Tifa, Denzel, Barret etc, I saw the ovas, movies etc…you just distorced the things. I really don`t care with hom cloud love…I always wanted to know the truth….so because of that I saw the things more clearly than that crazy cleriths and Clotis fans….and I just say…it isn`t too obvious that square chose Tifa? ….-_-

      The LTD IS OVER.

      And I am sure that square decided end the LTD because the Cleriths and Clotis fans where just in a non-sense war in XXXX years. That is horrible….

    • Teresa
      Teresa 26 January, 2010, 08:02

      I’m sure Square probably does not care about the “war”. They would hardly want to alienate either side, due to profits, after all.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD 26 January, 2010, 09:07

      Teresa, isn’t that a bit of a contradiction? If they don’t care about it, why would they be concerned with alienating anyone over it?

    • Teresa
      Teresa 26 January, 2010, 09:11

      Because if they alienate a group, such as Cloud/Aeris fans, they run the risk of said fans not wanting to purchase future FF7 products.

    • O_o
      O_o 26 January, 2010, 10:15

      Nah, there`s no risk to people don`t purchase FF7 products just by minors things. Cleriths fans wouldn`t stop to purchage the things just to something too little…unless they`re idiots…..

    • Ellis
      Ellis 26 January, 2010, 10:19

      It’s a such a small group that I really doubt that’s ever been SE’s concern. Very few fandoms in fact seem to have problems with messing with people’s theories and ultimately shutting them down.

    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 26 January, 2010, 16:31

      then there not really FF7 fans are they? I’m a Cloti fan, but overall, I love the game more than the pairing.

    • e_cloud7
      e_cloud7 26 January, 2010, 12:37

      > Highwind scene is not optional: agree
      see the “complete” scene isn’t

      > Cloud and Tifa are living together
      when? where? Cloud lives in Aerith’s church and after that, are they living together? I dunno.

      > Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel live as a family: agree
      1-in before, Marlene has a father, as you know
      2-to live as a family is to be a couple? that’s your opinion. when people are alone in the world they bound like a family, Tifa and Cloud are childhood friends, very good friends if you wish. Both are orphans, they know each other, have memories together…
      I mean, by living with something doesn’t mean they date, nor f***.
      My point is Cloud doesn’t love Tifa, but Tifa loves Cloud.

      PS. I haven’t play Dirge of Cerberus yet.
      Tidus + Yuna = canon
      Squall + Rinoa = canon
      Zidane + Garnet = canon
      Tifa + Cloud = unrequited love
      my opinion.

    • Ellis
      Ellis 26 January, 2010, 13:38

      Cloud and Tifa are said to live together after FFVII, and after the events of AC and DC, they still live together.

      “Tifa + Cloud = unrequited love
      my opinion.”
      As long as you understand that your opinion doesn’t change the fact that it’s officially been stated now that they are romantically involved.

    • Fighter
      Fighter 26 January, 2010, 14:01

      Your opinion is wrong since it says right there on the page labeled ‘love’ listing all official couples that Cloud and Tifa feel the same for each other.

      You also have poor knowledge of the story. Cloud lives with Tifa and stayed at the church for a short time when he had geostigma.

    • Ninira
      Ninira 28 January, 2010, 16:18

      It’d be odd if Cloud and Tifa were unrequited since they didn’t include Squall and Quistis or Zidane and Eiko, or any other unrequited loves on that page. Just sayin’.

  14. Teresa
    #14 Teresa 26 January, 2010, 08:00

    One last question (I promise): In CoT (which I haven’t read), what is the narrative that leads up to Tifa asking if Cloud loves her? Is it something like ‘she needed to confirm their feelings during this hard period in their lives’ or…? I’m not familiar if Japanese novel writing is similiar to English so I’m curious if they wrote about her inner thoughts prior to that question, or even her reaction afterwards.

    Reply to this comment
  15. Fiveonthe
    #15 Fiveonthe 27 January, 2010, 03:44

    Well, instead of actually having ‘sex’, physically, couldn’t that mean he kissed her? correct me , but I think I might be wrong, too. XD I can’t wrap myself around them having… you know, that. x_________x

    Reply to this comment
    • Vendel
      Vendel 27 January, 2010, 03:53

      No. Cloud definitely gave her the ole buster sword.

    • Zephyr
      Zephyr 27 January, 2010, 12:16

      the end of the world as they knew it was possibly coming and you think they just kissed?

      a majority of fans think that they had sex because the ff7 staff said that “words aren’t the only way…blah blah” was a risque line. The fact that the orignal scene was more obvious (a roll in the hay, literally) and that they merely toned it down indicates as such. Toning it down doesn’t mean they got rid of it completely, it just not as obvious or in your face. But given that you have a mature audience playing this game, its still obvious what happened that night. They stress, confirm feelings “without words” for a reason…indicates something physcial…

      Also given Tifa’s response to the the rest of avalanche’s commnetary on the highwind about them indicate they did something more than kiss.
      According to some official ff7 book thingie, Tifa blushed like crazy.

      I mean, if you can’t wrap your brain around, that’s fine, but its what probably happened. Its a scenario you usually see in movies anyways…not like its original.

    • Syneiam
      Syneiam 7 February, 2010, 18:29

      Would the line be called risqué if it was just kissing?

  16. oglop_master
    #16 oglop_master 27 January, 2010, 17:43

    Thank you for this short, unopinionated article. Squall_of_Seed’s had too much personal opinion for my tastes, no offense or anything. Plus, I felt this slight tinge of annoyance because of the contrast between his username and the article he was writing. But this one is short, precise, and to the point. So I thank you.

    However, I do not believe that the love triangle debate is or can ever be completely closed. You seem to have overlooked the fact that the article about the scenes of love shows not only Cloud and Tifa, but Cloud and Aeris as well. Hm. Perhaps Square is trying to tell us that we’ll never figure it out and everyone should simply ship whatever they want. After all, Nomura-sensei did say that whatever the fans wanted was canon, meaning that Cloud’s canon pairing could very well be Cloud x Tonberry for all we know. (Please, oh please, don’t tell me that you ship that to Terra and back. I swear.)

    The love triangle debate will be debated and debated until Gaia (VII) is merged with Spira and Barret is dancing around in a hula skirt on a colourful island with fruity Hawaiian music playing. Which is a scary thought and will never happen outside of the fandom. So Cloud will never truly end up with anyone – man, woman, or monster. The debate will continue until there are no VII fans left to debate it.

    And another thing. (This is personal opinion except for the facts, but I think it is a good thing to consider. I apologise.) Case of Tifa begins by Tifa talking about her feelings for Cloud, her uncertainty about his feelings for her, and her concern about their relationship. About halfway through the story, however, she sees Cloud as more of a child and begins to treat him like less of a lover and more of a friend. He is in the same category in her mind as Denzel and Marlene for the rest of the story. Tifa seems to ‘get over’ (for lack of a better phrase) her romantic love for Cloud. And certainly, Cloud tends to stay by himself and not pursue a relationship. I always had believed that Cloud and Tifa were the canon pairing, but she develops feelings for him that are a mixture of motherly and those of close friendship with him in her story, causing me to consider otherwise. I think that if Cloud ever ends up with anyone, it will probably be later on in his own life when he’s too old to be a main character in a spin-off to VII. So you’ll never know.

    But until then, it’s fun to debate, and even when you get angry and start flame wars about it, there’s still a bit of good nature about it. So keep arguing until they make a canon FFVII dating sim with only one possible outcome. Because you’ll never completely conclude it.

    Reply to this comment
    • Vendel
      Vendel 27 January, 2010, 18:04

      Did you even read the caption under the date scene? It doesn’t matter what the picture is. SE is either acknowledging the LT with a picture of Aerith. Or they are just twisting the knife to point out that ANY ACTION YOU TAKE ON THE FIRST DISK IS MEANINGLESS.

      Why the fuck would Cloud and Tifa be the exception on this page? “Oh yeah this is all the couples. EXCEPT FOR FFVII IGNORE THAT”.

      Case of Tifa is Told in flashback after Cloud has disappeared. Of course she is going to question what the hell happened. And no Tifa never thought of Cloud as her Child. Ever. She may have thought he was acting LIKE a child. Bu t never HER child. Also at the beginning of CoT it is Cloud and not Tifa that is carrying the relationship. He is the one supporting her.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 27 January, 2010, 19:24

      Wow, a flamer already? And I certainly did read the caption under the date scene. They were specifying two different pairings for Cloud. That was my whole point. I never said that Tifa and Cloud were never in a relationship. In fact, I believe that they probably were at one point (depending on how you play the game). But regardless of the outcome you got, they still showed plenty of love for each other. But you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that Aeris was under the same category as Tifa. In fact, she even came before Tifa on the page. They are obviously recognising the love triangle. That is the whole point.

      Yes, any action towards pairing Cloud with Aeris that you take on the first disk will not matter at the end of the game. However, this does not mean that Aeris can be completely discounted from the love triangle, causing Tifa, by default, to be Cloud’s only main love interest. She is still very much a part of the love triangle, which is much of the reason why the debate is still continuing. She is still sentient, and comments in Lifestream Black and White that she still has feelings for Cloud even after death. So the whole argument against Aeris is practically pointless.

      Also, I’m not quite sure why you are becoming so worked up about Tifa questioning what happened. That does happen to be what I said. Tifa did not consider Cloud to be her child, exactly. I apologise if I came off meaning something other that what I thought. I simply meant that Tifa saw him in more of a platonic light than her previous romantic feelings. She observes that he has child-like qualities, and also follows up on this throughout the rest of the story, commenting on how cute he is, like a child, and how she tries to take care of him. She never thought of him as her own child. A motherly instinct does not always imply the same feelings that an actual mother would have.

      But there is one point on which I really must disagree with you. Cloud certainly does not carry the relationship. Tifa is the one taking care of Cloud, even in the beginning of CoT, where Cloud had more of a part in the relationship than in any other time in the story. As the story continues, Tifa is the one trying to take care of Cloud and herself together, while Cloud is trying to separate himself from Tifa and take care of only himself so that he doesn’t burden her.

      And just so that you know, because without this knowledge I will most likely come off sounding like someone who is trying to protect the pairing that they ship, I do not ship Cloud and Aeris. In fact, I prefer Cloud and Tifa by far. But this opinion does not change my statements. The debate is about the canon, not what you or I ship in our own free time. This needs to be remembered by all parties.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 27 January, 2010, 19:39

      Aerith is not in the same category as Tifa when it comes to who Cloud loves. As for coming before Tifa on the page? Maybe they just wanted to point out it doesn’t mean jack?

      The only thing required for a love triangle is that two people love the same person. And yes you can completely discount Aerith. Cloud loves Tifa. Aerith’s feelings in this matter mean absolutely nothing.

      Tifa and Cloud are not chaste roommates who raise children. They are a couple.

      Read CoT again. It is Cloud who tells Tifa that he will be with her from then on. It is Cloud who reminds Tifa that she is a cheerful person. It is Cloud who comforts her when they visit Aeriths grave. It is Cloud who runs all over creation getting supplies For Tifa. It isn’t until much later that Cloud’s survivor guilt starts to makes things difficult.

      Yes the debate is about canon. And this pages slams the door shut on any possible way to worm out of a Cloud/Tifa pairing.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 30 January, 2010, 18:30

      I really don’t think that you should be commenting on something that you don’t know anything about. Also, I know that the fact that Aeris came before Tifa on the page most likely means absolutely nothing. I was simply making a point.

      But have you read Lifestream White and Black? Aeris is perfectly sentient and still talks about her continuing feelings for Cloud. If a love triangle is required to have two people love the same person, you are contradicting yourself when you say that Aeris’s feeling do not matter.

      At what point does it specifically show that Tifa and Cloud are roommates? And why is it that everyone who ships Cloud and Tifa is fully set in their belief that they are having sex? Is that really the point of the relationship? Or is is just something that perverted fanboys with nothing better to do than stare at Tifa’s chest like to think about?

      Also, I took your advice and reread CoT. It has only reinforced my views. For example:

      “Friends were a necessity to me so that I could live on without being supressed by the sins in my consciousness. Even if they were fellow companions that had the same wounds. Even if they were fellow companions who were burdened with the same sins. We couldn’t live without comforting each other and encouraging each other.
      Maybe you could call that family.”

      This is a quote from Tifa’s thoughts about her “family” showing her feelings of Cloud as a friend. And about Tifa having motherly feelings, there is this:

      “Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was welling up inside her.”

      This quote, which was on page five of thelifestream.net’s translation of Case of Tifa, shows that Tifa indeed has motherly feelings about Cloud.

      But seriously. Please. Play the original game before making a huge deal about something that you don’t know anything about. People like that are just annoying. And could you come up with an insult besides ‘moron’ if you must call names? It’s becoming a tad trying to hear the same insult repeated with no variation. And it just makes you sound like a fool.

    • Fighter
      Fighter 27 January, 2010, 20:09

      I suggest enter the forum and go to the debate thread. Doing it here is not very comfortable.

    • Fighter
      Fighter 27 January, 2010, 20:13

      When was the last time you saw it debated? Every clerith fan is scared of entering a debate nowadays.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 28 January, 2010, 19:12

      Me?

    • Syneiam
      Syneiam 7 February, 2010, 18:32

      No, the Pope :monster:

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 10 February, 2010, 19:10

      Superpope?

  17. Teresa
    #17 Teresa 27 January, 2010, 19:54

    Didn’t Cloud’s mom tell him ti find a girl who would take care of him? *lol Oedipal complex*
    And guys, Barrett is technically Marlene’s dad, I don’t think he’d appreciate everyone saying Cloud’s her father XD XD XD

    Reply to this comment
    • Vendel
      Vendel 27 January, 2010, 20:03

      Technically Barret adopted her. And technically he left her in Cloud and Tifa’s care. And technically this has been the case for the better part of 4 years compilation time.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 28 January, 2010, 17:38

      No offense or anything, but have you actually played VII?

    • Vendel
      Vendel 29 January, 2010, 00:55

      Don’t be a moron.

      Marlene is not Barret’s biological daughter

      And no one is calling Cloud her father. But he along with Tifa are her primary caregivers.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 29 January, 2010, 15:09

      … So you haven’t played the game.

      There’s really no need to call names. And obviously, Marlene is not Barret’s biological daughter. No one said that.

      But where are these four years coming from? You might not know this if you haven’t actually played VII, but Cloud and Tifa weren’t living in Midgar for the majority of the game. They were off following the plot around Gaia. Marlene was being taken care of by Elmyra, Aeris’ adoptive mother. There is nothing in Dirge that indicates that Marlene was living with Cloud and Tifa. Plus, Barret was only leaving Marlene with Cloud and Tifa because he had to figure out what to do after VII. He said he wanted to come back to take care of her, so he probably wouldn’t have left her with Cloud and Tifa forever.

      Nothing you’re saying is really backed up by evidence. And by your comments, I can tell that you do not understand the personality of people, or at least fictional characters. But please cease your outbreak of anger towards anyone who dares to contradict you. You’re not always going to be right, you know.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 29 January, 2010, 15:53

      From the time Barret leaves in CoT to CoD is the better part of 4 years. THAT is where I get it from. And there is ZERO evidence Barret has returned to 7th Heaven.

      So I am 100% backed up by canon. And you are still a moron.

    • oglop_master
      oglop_master 10 February, 2010, 18:56

      I’m not sure about this, so correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t actually think that it says in Case of Denzel that Denzel is actually still living with Tifa and Cloud. I’ll reread CoD if I’m wrong, but could you please point this out to me? This is a serious question. Just send me a link of the page that it’s on or something.

    • Vendel
      Vendel 10 February, 2010, 19:35

      Wait…why wouldn’t he be living with Cloud and Tifa?

  18. fairheartstrife
    #18 fairheartstrife 27 January, 2010, 20:56

    **head-desk**

    This is why the ‘debate’ never ends. People who know half-ass shit, and not official compilation forming opinions based off other OPINIONS and not fact.

    As far as I’m concerned the triangle died when Cloud remembered himself. You could say it was when Masamune skewered Pinkie, but the fact remains Cloud was never shown to hold romantic interest in anyone aside from Tifa. Ever.

    Seeing it was fan insertion. So, if you prefer delicate damsels in distress that pedal their petals in dark alleyways–Aerith was your girl. It’s just too bad she wasn’t Cloud’s. 🙁 <– See my sad-face for your fannon loss.

    Reply to this comment
  19. Anzu
    #19 Anzu 27 January, 2010, 23:06

    that was unusually satisfying. and i don’t even partake in the ltd.

    Reply to this comment

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