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Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ

by April 5, 2011 56 comments


• Why do they have the power of gods if they’re manikins?
Familiarity with Final Fantasy IX’s story may make this concept easier to visualize. As demonstrated in that game by Kuja drawing upon the memories within countless souls to create Memoria — a gateway back in time to the crystal of creation, a memory buried in all souls — it is possible for memories to allow access to something primordial and fundamental to the order of the universe; perhaps even the omniverse.

Indeed, had Kuja succeeded in destroying the first crystal, there would have been no more creation: all existence would have ceased to be, for it never would have been in the first place.

Likewise, the Onrac scientists’ experiments with memories allowed them to access and create an embodiment of the dual — and dueling — concepts of harmony and discord. As Cid of the Lufaine reminded Cosmos during the Secret Ending of the original Dissidia (the cutscene from Report 20 of this game): “… as long as the world exists, there will be no end to conflict. Even harmony and discord are concepts born of the human mind, after all.”

In other words, the scientists initially created an embodiment of balance; something more like the sense of order served by the Cloud of Darkness than either Chaos or Cosmos.

This is indicated by Chaos’s dream from the Shade Impulse portion of cycle 013, in which he saw a vision of himself and Cosmos ruling together:

Garland: “So you are awake. What kind of dream was it?”
Chaos: “Hmph… It was ridiculous. Cosmos and I were governing the world together.”
Garland: “…! That’s–”
Chaos: “Laughable, is it not? In that world, I was a god that suppressed disorder. But strangely, the images are still vivid in my eyes… All the people smiling…the warmth of the days I spent with Cosmos… For one who has lost all memory, why did the dream have to be so cruel?”

Given that other characters were recovering lost memories during Shade Impulse (e.g. Squall remembering Rinoa waiting for him, and Sephiroth remembering his suicide from cycle 012) due to the loss of harmony with Cosmos’s death, it is likely that Chaos was also recovering a legitimate memory here.

When the Onrac scientists culled Chaos’s memories to create a manikin of his mother, they ended up essentially splitting this being of order (an entity I personally like to call Balance) into its dual halves of harmony and discord. Balance then became the embodiment of discord, the being whom Garland would later name Chaos. Meanwhile, Cosmos, the manikin created from Chaos’s memories of his mother, became the embodiment of harmony.

• What was the ultimate goal of Cid/the Great Will?
In the first Dissidia, it was said that Cid’s goal was revenge on those on his homeworld who had caused him to lose his wife. This information is revealed in these lines from Chaos Reports 2, 3, 7, 9 and 10 respectively:

“An irreplacable person has been stolen
from me. Now, here in this new world,
my new goal is clear. I will use anything
I must to achieve it.
Once the homeland decided that dedicating
itself to creating the ultimate weapon was
in the country’s best interests… It is long
past time to complete that task.”

“I need discord to absorb even greater powers…
this is the the way to salvation left to me.”

“Perhaps this unending war to create the
ultimate weapon has already brought forth
its own demise.”

“I was unable to achieve the power of utter
chaos. I could not complete my revenge. And
yet…I have no more regrets.
I can only wish for a peaceful future for the
world that so long ago was my home.”

“All was born from hatred–creating this world,
dragging him to it…swearing revenge on those
who ravenously desired power–endless
experiments meant to induce a greater and
more deadly strength.”

The text-only portion of Report 17 in Dissidia 012 expands on that to say Cid wanted Chaos to become more powerful so that, as his power grew, a gateway through the Interdimensional Rift would open, allowing them back to the world of the first Final Fantasy game — their homeworld. Once there, Cid would have intended for Chaos to annihilate those he held responsible for the loss of his wife:

“What Chaos–the weapon born
amidst the war–brought upon
the world was not peace, but
fear, despair…and more warfare.

Chaos would later lose someone
precious before he was locked
into an unknown world.

There he was given another order:
to create a path to the door to
the Rift.

Through countless battles, Chaos
gained immense strength. But the
path was not to be found. The
scientist Cid–who had originally
forced him into the cycle–was
losing hope of ever finding his
way home.”

The information Cid shares in the Confessions of the Creator storyline also confirms this, as well as that he wanted Chaos to destroy Onrac:

“It is as though this world is a prison, drifting in between the dimensions. When I was trapped here, I searched for a way to return tomy homeworld. But the only way to break through the door to the Rift was to use monstrous force…”

“Trapped in this realm with Chaos and Cosmos, I wished to return to my homeworld– because I wanted revenge against the state that robbed me of my family.”

The rift that Cid wanted was eventually discovered by the warriors of Chaos, and Exdeath used it to bring the manikins into the war. It was at this rift where Lightning and her team made their final stand in cycle 012. Lightning closed the rift before she died, much to Cid’s dismay, according to Report 18:

“In the midst of battle, pawns
of discord discovered a door
where the experimental ‘failures’
had been discarded in the past.
They used the door to their advantage.

Pawns of harmony were pushed to
the brink of extinction in the
struggle against the ‘failures.’

But they did not give up. The
few pawns that had remaining
strength destroyed the door to
the Rift and sent the ‘failures’
to oblivion.

That was the path that led to
the Rift.

Cid was convinced that all hope
was now lost.”

Cid, however, did relent his quest for revenge not longer after, wishing instead for peace to prevail. This was first indicated by Chaos Report 9 in the first game, where Cid said the following:

“I was unable to achieve the power of utter
chaos. I could not complete my revenge. And
yet…I have no more regrets.
I can only wish for a peaceful future for the
world that so long ago was my home.”

It was later confirmed by his Museum profile in Dissidia 012 and the information he shares in Confessions of the Creator:

“It is in the twelfth cycle when Cosmos rebels against her duty and protects her warriors with her own life that Cid realizes that he is no different from the military that stole his wife in their persistence on invading other nations.

Having realized his sins, Cid creates two teleport stones to save the warriors in the thirteenth cycle.”

“Revenge was why I parted with my flesh. I was willing to sacrifice anything. But at some point, I realized… Revenge satisfies nothing. All that mattered was for the world to be at peace.”


• Is Cid/the Great Will a moogle?
During the 000: Confessions of the Creator story mode, Cid is encountered in the form of a moogle. Is he really a moogle?

No. He just assumed the form of one in that story mode so that he would be able to physically interact to some degree. It was also a pretty good disguise since there was no one but Chaos, Cosmos, Shinryu, moogles and manikins around at the time he took on that form.


• What are the gateways?
Distortions on the planet where it seems to overlap with the shards of the other worlds. According to the text-only portion of Report 15, the ever-growing door to the Rift created these gateways, and Shinryu in some way attracts them as well.


• Why do those killed by manikins not come back to life in the next cycle?
Though never stated outright in-game, it’s likely that warriors killed by manikins aren’t revived by Shinryu because they were not part of the agreement Shinryu and Cid made when the Dissidia conflict began. You might say that they’re not covered by the insurance policy Cid took out with Shinryu.

Some fans have suggested that the real reason death-by-manikin causes permanent death may be implied by this statement from Garland in Chapter 1:

“Manikins are merciless. They know only how to deliver death
and destruction, from which there can be no return.”

The understanding then taken is that manikins continue hacking away at the corpses of those they kill until no body remains, leaving nothing for Shinryu to revive. However, Gabranth appears to have been incinerated by Shantotto during his battle with her in the first story segment of Report 8, and he yet returned. Furthermore, the bodies of all warriors of Chaos discorporate into dark smoke upon death, yet they still return.

Those observations in mind, it must simply be the lack of the manikins’ inclusion in Cid and Shinryu’s agreement that causes him to leave them out. Arbitrary, perhaps, but so is the rule that a new cycle begins if either side’s deity should be killed.

• Do those warriors who fell to manikins never return to life, even after Dissidia ends?
Following Chaos’s defeat at the end of cycle 013, the fallen are restored to life along with their worlds and all the other disembodied consciousnesses said in Chaos Report 5 to inhabit the world of Dissidia. Proof of this is as simple as the fact that Laguna was 27 when he was pulled into the conflict of Dissidia, but is 44 during Squall’s present day in Final Fantasy VIII.

Other good examples of things going back to how they should be is that Yuna was clearly plucked from a time prior to Final Fantasy X-2 to participate in the Dissidia war, while Tifa was taken prior to Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus. As well, for his part, Kain was clearly taken prior to Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.

All of these characters must return to their proper places in time at some point, so as to keep those other stories on course — and possibly for Squall to be born, for that matter, since Laguna is his father.


• Who is the Warrior of Light?
Explained in the text-only portions of Reports 15 and 16, the cutscenes of Report 18, and the Warrior of Light’s in-game Museum profile, the Warrior of Light is a perfect manikin produced from Cid’s own memories. He is, in fact, the only such manikin produced by Cid to be involved in the Dissidia conflict.

Here follows the portions of text from Reports 15 and 16, as well as the Warrior of Light’s profile, relevant to explaining this:

“-Report 04

There is an abundance of ore in this realm.
It may be worth the effort to create
another manikin as perfect as Cosmos.”

“-Report 005
Attempts at embedding my own memories to
manikins fail.

Like the ‘failures’ of my old experiments,
they do not retain human likeness.

No complete memory transplant could be done.”

“-Record 006
Memory successfully embedded in experiment.
Confirmed non-crystallization of body.

Difficult to sense any will in its eyes,
perhaps caused by incomplete transplant.

Observation by placing it under battle
conditions with the summoned.”

(This is where the cutscenes from Report 18 pick up.)

“Holding no prior memories of his past, the Warrior of Light behaves as other warriors summoned by Cosmos, but he himself was not summoned by the goddess. In truth, he is the only warrior created in this realm by the Great Will.

Summoned at a time when the war of the gods had just begun, he was affiliated with neither the forces of harmony nor discord. Prishe, a former warrior of Cosmos, brought him to Cosmos, and from that point forth was reborn as a warrior of harmony.

At first, his will was faint, but interactions with Cosmos and his comrades shaped the familiar, strong, and righteous attitude he has today.”

His profile also mentions that he was given a name by Prishe shortly after his creation, but he no longer remembers it or her due to Shinryu’s purification:

“The name given unto him by Prishe has long been sealed away through the many purifications he has endured …”

Whether he ever remembered it is uncertain. As of Shade Impulse scene 27 (immediately before the warriors of Cosmos defeat Garland, and shortly before they take down Chaos), he had not yet remembered, despite his other companions recovering their memories around that time (e.g. Squall remembers Rinoa between SI scene 17 and scene 18 ).

Despite having a straightforward answer as to who the Warrior of Light is, who or what the other three Warriors of Light from the first Final Fantasy game are remains unknown.

At least one fan has suggested that they may have been different versions of the perfect manikin created by Cid from three of the alternate timelines that emerged when Chaos was defeated at the end of cycle 013, while another has suggested that they may have been warriors who were removed from Dissidia’s war after already obtaining their crystals in prior cycles.

My favorite theory about them, however, is that, following the end of the Dissidia war, Cid of the Lufaine worked with Cosmos to create allies for the Warrior of Light who fought in the conflict depicted in Dissidia — Cid creating them as perfect manikins, as with the first Warrior of Light, and Cosmos then imbuing them with her power. Perhaps the three were even then sent on a quest by Cosmos to achieve their own crystals, so they could be sent to World A to assist the other warrior in saving that world — thus fulfilling Lukahn’s prophecy of the four Warriors of Light arriving with their crystals.

At any rate, these three mysterious warriors do lack memories of a past, the same as Dissidia’s Warrior of Light, as mentioned under the entry for the first Final Fantasy’s characters on the official Dissidia Final Fantasy website:

(Translation by Schala-Kitty)
“Earth, fire, water, and wind. These four crystals have supported the whole of the world. However, the hand of Chaos has caused the crystals to lose their radiance, covering the world in darkness, causing its continual decay. Before long, four warriors carrying the prophesied crystals appear in the land of Cornelia. With no memories of their past, and no understanding of the purpose of the crystals they possess, they set out on a great journey to restore the radiance of the crystals, and bring peace to the world once again.”


• Who is Garland?
Other than the knight of Cornelia who becomes Chaos, and is at the center of the time loop featured in the first Final Fantasy, it’s impossible to say right now. Given the existence of Worlds A and B, the Chaos who commands Team Chaos in the Dissidia series (hailing from World A) may not even be the same entity as the Garland featured in the Dissidia series (whose first known appearance is in World B).

The life of Dissidia’s Chaos can be traced straight from the Reports to the cycles of Dissidia, to his death at the hands of the warriors of Cosmos in cycle 013. This is a progression of events in which he never had an opportunity to be Garland, serve as a knight of Cornelia, or become involved in the time travel shenanigans of that first FF.

Given that the Garland of Dissidia is supposed to become Chaos under unknown circumstances — something he has full awareness of, as seen in the text-only portion of Report 12, and in Shade Impulse scene 25 — it certainly makes one wonder as to his origin. For that matter, given that Garland is the one to have named Dissidia’s Chaos, it may well be that there’s no true relationship between this Chaos and the Chaos who Garland becomes.

Of course, given that in the ending of Confessions of the Creator, Chaos apparently has lines that take place after his own defeat following cycle 013, it’s possible that he lived on and then found himself in some diminished form. Shinryu’s Museum profile does mention that he absorbed Chaos’s powers when he was defeated at the end of cycle 013: “Shinryu then seduced Chaos to release his remaining strength, and after consuming that, Shinryu once again departed to the interdimensional Rift.”

Perhaps he lost most of his memories of the Dissidia conflict due to the absorption, entered the Rift, ended up in World A like the Warrior of Light (at an earlier time than him, however), became a knight of Cornelia, and eventually found himself 2000 years in the past where he could once again become Chaos — but he would, first, have to make a layover stop on World B to take part in the Dissidia series.

Note that, following the end of cycle 013, Chaos could have also been revived in a diminished, amnesiac state (as Garland) by Jecht’s crystal, which was a manifestation of Chaos’s own power. It had been in the Emperor’s possession until he was defeated by the warriors of Cosmos — and beyond that, it’s never mentioned again.

Or is it?

Could the dark crystal in Garland’s possession in the Chaos Shrine in the first Final Fantasy have been Jecht’s crystal all along? It does, after all, seem to have some connection to Chaos, as it is by using this crystal in conjunction with their own that the four Warriors of Light are able to follow Garland 2000 years back in time and fight him after he’s saved by Chaos.

Resurrection by crystals that embodied her power worked for Cosmos (see the response under “How is Cosmos alive during the Secret Ending of the first Dissidia/the cutscene from Report 20 of Dissidia 012?” below), so why not Chaos/Garland too? Given that the one crystal was all that remained of his power, though, he would have likely been revived in a much weaker state than was Cosmos.

In any event, Garland being plucked from a time after he was already sent 2000 years into the past of World A before becoming involved in the Dissidia war on World B would also explain how he already knew he would become Chaos, as he mentioned it in Report 12 and Shade Impulse scene 25:

“I often think of the start of the cycle.

I as Chaos summon me from the future;
once summoned, I become Chaos.

This cursed cycle could not have started unless
one other than myself carried me to the past.

I wonder if the truth will ever be revealed.”

Chaos: “It was just as I thought… You were the beginning.”
Garland: “No, Chaos… For myself…you are the beginning.
Before the Great Will led me to this realm, when I was on the
edge of death, it was you who sent me two thousand years into
the past. You are me… and I…am you.”

Note as well that in Report 12 Garland says that he will at some point in his future pull himself 2000 years into the past, and that he’d heard his own voice (Chaos’s voice) tell him so when he was transported through time:

“I heard a voice speak to me as I laid
dying–and that voice was my own.

My words were the only clues I had of the
realm in which I found myself–in which I
assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years.

The life of endless solitude felt like a
nightmare from which there is no waking.

In the present, I no longer have an interest
in carrying my future self back to the past.

But 2000 years is excruciatingly long.

As I imagined the hatred building inside me
that would eventually and inevitably lead me to
make a irreparable mistake, all I could do
was cower in fear.”

Further note that the dark crystal Garland owned (the one I’m suggesting was Jecht’s crystal from Dissidia) was in the room at the time Garland was dying.

After Dissidia ended, he would be restored to the time whence he came, as with all the other summoned warriors. He would then assume the process of becoming Chaos and send the Four Fiends — creatures born of his hatred interacting with the four forces of nature, according to the ending of the first FF — to the future to begin the time loop the first Final Fantasy’s story revolves around.

After he had become Chaos again, Garland would then speak across time to his past self who was dying in the future, explaining the 2000-year-time loop to him as he sent him through time, briefly to World A’s past, and then across dimension to World B to take part in Dissidia.

This would also tie into Garland’s line to the Warriors of Light before the final fight of the first FF that 2000 years in the future he would know nothing of the time loop — he wouldn’t know until he was defeated by the Warriors of Light, heard Chaos’s voice, and got transported through time.

Dissidia’s Garland returning after the war, by the way, to a point where he stood to instate the time loop may well have been foreshadowed by his comment while dying in Shade Impulse scene 29 about finding a new cycle: “If this world loses its form, I only need to find another cycle.”

Thus, the origin of Garland would be:

  • Step 1: Created as Balance by Cid and the other Lufenian scientists
  • Step 2: As a child, raised by Cid and his wife
  • Step 3: Persuaded to become involved in the Lufenian nation’s war
  • Step 4: Memories culled to create Cosmos — the harmonious half of his power goes to her in the process, leaving him control over just the power of discord
  • Step 5: When Cid and his wife attempt to rescue him, Cid’s wife is shot and, in anger, Garland lashes out with the power of discord, destroying the facility and opening a portal to the Rift that lands himself, Cid and Cosmos in World B; there, they meet an adult Garland who has already served as a knight of Cornelia
  • Step 6: Cid and Shinryu strike their bargain; Cid convinces the adult Garland to persuade his younger self to take part in the war of the gods depicted in Dissidia; the adult Garland names his younger self Chaos
  • Step 7: Dies at the end of the thirteenth cycle of the Dissidia war; Shinryu absorbs most of his power and memories
  • Step 8: Either survives — or is revived — in a diminished state; passes through a Rift gate and ends up in World A; becomes a knight of Cornelia
  • Step 9: Kidnaps Princess Sarah and is defeated by the Warriors of Light; as he lays dying, he hears his own voice speak to him from across time, explaining the 2000-year-time loop to him; he’s transported through time, briefly to World A’s past, and then across dimension to World B to take part in Dissidia
  • Step 10: Meets his past self, Cid and Cosmos on World B; after Cid and Shinryu strike their bargain, Cid convinces him to persuade his past self to take part in the war of the gods depicted in Dissidia; names his past self Chaos
  • Step 11: Defeated by the warriors of Cosmos and returns to his now proper place in time (2000 years in World A’s past) when Dissidia ends
  • Step 12: Becomes Chaos once again; sends the Four Fiends to the future; speaks to his past self who was dying in the future, explaining the 2000-year-time loop to him as he sent him through time, briefly to World A’s past, and then across dimension to World B to take part in Dissidia
  • Though Garland commented to Golbez during the final stages of cycle 013 that he had taken part in the Great Will’s plot because Cid had saved him from the time loop he had been made prisoner of, it’s likely that — at the time he agreed to fulfill Cid’s wishes — Garland hadn’t yet realized the events of Dissidia were all just part of the time loop. His final comment in that conversation with Golbez suggests that, once he realized the cycles of battle were coming to an end, he realized the truth about the scope of the time loop: “…There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. As long as he is me…”

    While all this does adequately explain Garland’s origin, it does still leave a couple of questions:

    1) Who originally sent Garland to the past to become Chaos and instate the 2000-year-time loop? Garland himself wonders about this in the text-only portion of Report 12:

    “This cursed cycle could not have started unless
    one other than myself carried me to the past.

    I wonder if the truth will ever be revealed.”

    2) What catalyst for change causes the time loop of the first Final Fantasy to break, and what are the ramifications of this on … well, everything? Especially Dissidia?

    To the first question, I’d say it doesn’t matter any more than does explaining the who, what, where, when, why and how of Final Fantasy VIII’s time loop beginning.

    The presence of the time loop is just how it is. You’re not going to explain it, and there’s no point in bothering. It really doesn’t matter at all.

    Feel free to ignore that opinion, though, given how much time myself and a couple of others spent analyzing FFVIII’s entire story in our FFVIII Analysis on Ultimecia and Time FAQ. And, in any event, as you’ll see if you follow that link, depending on who you ask, the answer you get may well be that the time loop never had a beginning because time is static and unchanging.

    As it would have been said on “LOST”: “Whatever happened, happened.”

    Of course, the fact that the time loop in the first FF can be broken is at odds with such an understanding of time’s mechanics as they apply to this game.

    As for the second question, I don’t know. That’s to the realm of fanfiction to answer.

    • If the Warrior of Light, Chaos and Cosmos (and possibly Garland, since he’s Chaos) are all manikins, why can they be revived for a turn in another cycle, and why can those killed by them come back?
    They’re part of the agreement between Shinryu and Cid, so the restrictions related to other manikins don’t apply to them.

    In the Warrior of Light’s case, though he is a manikin who was brought into the war after the cycles had already begun, he’s also one of Cosmos’s chosen and was imbued with her power. As a selected warrior of Cosmos, he’s covered by Cid and Shinryu’s bargain.

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56 comments

  1. Ryushikaze
    #1 Ryushikaze 5 April, 2011, 18:49

    A quick point re: OK

    I don’t think it’s Luneth. If it is one of the new DS version heroes and not one of the OK from III, then I think it might be Ingus.

    Luneth is the archetypal ‘Rush in ASAP’ hero, regardless of who is involved. Ingus, by contrast, is much more reserved, wanting to examine a situation before leaping in, much like OK in Dissidia. Though Ingus certainly would not ‘fight only battles he was sure he could win’ he would do everything he could to maximize his chances.

    I reckon that OK is a younger Ingus, years before ever becoming a knight of Sasune.

    Besides, OK has his hair and his color scheme. It takes the Luneth Alt for OK to look anything like Luneth.

    Just my 2c.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 13:58

      Fair points. I’ll add mention of the similarities to Ingus in as well. Thanks, Ryu.

  2. Shikamarunara
    #2 Shikamarunara 5 April, 2011, 19:41

    I gotta ask, when was it stated that Chaos lost the 13th and several cycles afterwards in 000? Because I can’t find that stated in the game.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 14:04

      On a second look, you are right. I’d misinterpreted this line previously: “The Cycle of destruction and purification gave Chaos power and corroded his
      mind.”

      I’d taken this to mean that Chaos had received purification over and over (in which case he would have died), and that this had messed with his mind. However, it’s said that Cosmos herself receives purification over and over and loses power over time: “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification. … Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself.”

      I guess the reference to purification in the line about Chaos just means that he kept getting more and more powerful, and the increase in power made him insane.

      So, Confessions of the Creator is more like an expanded version of Inward Chaos then. Thanks for the correction. I’ll add it in, along with further thanks to you. =)

  3. I Am Not Me
    #3 I Am Not Me 6 April, 2011, 02:46

    Hi… er. Why is this posted under ‘Final Fantasy VII’?

    Also, your Seventh Heaven Strategy guide appears to be a dead link.

    PS: I’m still reading this article.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 14:06

      It’s under the “Final Fantasy VII” category because I forgot to add tags when I posted the article, and that’s the default tag. Thanks for pointing that out. I went ahead and fixed it just now.

      You finished reading the article and have anything else to add?

  4. DeltaRay
    #4 DeltaRay 7 April, 2011, 23:38

    I believe regarding manikins are truly merciless they have no will of their own they will continue slaughtering their victim including destroying their victims flesh which is why I even though Terra was nearly about to die she killed the manikins before they killed her and leads me to believe that if you have no Flesh Shynryu cant revive you, If the villains kill you they will leave your body but I believe manikins dont know any better so they will continue to slaughter a body.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 23:43

      I’ve considered that possibility before, but since Shantotto apparently vaporized Gabranth and he was still brought back for the next round of the cycle, I don’t think it’s the case.

      Thanks for throwing that out there, though.

    • DeltaRay
      DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 05:02

      I though Gabranth ran away with shame after his defeat against Shantotto, and in the end he ended up in a place thats not in the gods battle ground or so it says on dissidia 013 game I cant remember where I read that.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 19:24

      Well, his profile says that he went into hiding after being defeated by Shantotto, but it’s clear from their fight that she killed him. So I assume it was in the next cycle that he went into hiding, once he’d been revived.

    • DeltaRay
      DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 20:47

      ah ok yea that makes sense but killing him doesnt mean she destroyed his flesh which is why I believe no body = no revive also doesnt shynryu keep reviving chars until they can no longer give him “experince”, I mean if a character has no body he cant really absorb their experience to make himself stronger because he only heals their body he doesnt make them their body if he made their body then that probably make them manikins which I believe they arent manikins.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 12:11

      Don’t the bodies of all the warriors of Chaos discorporate into black smoke upon death, though? So they really don’t have bodies when Shinryu arrives anyway.

      In any case, I thought Shantotto incinerated Gabranth. She said she would, and he wasn’t there after the battle.

  5. clide88
    #5 clide88 8 April, 2011, 00:49

    New here, but I had a few opinions/questions.

    First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?

    As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?

    When talking about Terra’s and Cloud’s survival, you said “Though Cloud wasn’t killed by a manikin, he was killed by his own side’s god…” That god being Chaos…who, as you noted, was in fact a manikin himself. Nothing really relevant there, I just found it amusing, though I could see someone not very pensive being confused by that.

    This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).

    As far as the inconsistencies mentioned at the end, I’ll give a few of them a shot:

    As far as Kuja being manipulated by several of the villains when Sephiroth wasn’t, all I can suggest is that Kuja was more emotionally/mentally fragile than Sephiroth, who wasn’t easily manipulated, if for no other reason than he more or less showed a disinterest in their ploys.

    About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.

    On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.

    Just some questions/thoughts. Feel free to correct me/shoot me down wherever necessary. I certainly haven’t put as much thought or effort into the storyline as you, so any theories I have may easily be explained by an oversight on my account.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 20:01

      First, thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful response. =)

      -“First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?”

      Yes, actually, that’s exactly how I would have described the gateways.

      -“As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?”

      Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.

      -“This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).”

      You know, that’s an excellent observation. Yeah, I’d agree — Golbez must have belonged to Cosmos at some point.

      Now that you bring it up, I notice that the original dialogue alluded to it, but they evidently realized that it wasn’t explicit enough and revised it. Here’s what it was in the original:

      Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
      Exdeath: “Indeed. He is a betrayer to the last.”
      Emperor: “I suppose it was only a matter of time until he became aware of the light within him… Nevertheless, we must resolve this issue before Shrinyu makes its move.”

      And here’s the new version:

      Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
      Exdeath: “Indeed, he is finally caught in the act. His inner light of harmony never faded.”
      Emperor: “A heart of light in a dark body… How intriguing. We must resolve this issue before Shinryu stirs.”

      Makes me think that they probably did the same thing with Kuja after all, and that he hadn’t originally been summoned by Chaos. This would explain why he discorporates into white smoke like Lightning and co. when he dies in Shade Impulse.

      I notice that they’ve also removed Garland’s reference to him as new. This was the original flow of that conversation:

      Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
      Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
      Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same. Not just me. We are all the
      same. Even that witch, Ultimecia… We all bear the same fate. You have only
      been…directed…because you are new.”

      Here’s the new one:
      Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
      Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
      Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same–warriors summoned to this land by the god of discord. And that is the truth for all of us. Even that witch, Ultimecia… Not one remembers everything. You were used when you had just awakened.”

      Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).

      Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.

      -“About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.”

      It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before? Right before he killed Cosmos, I mean.

      He wasn’t there, then the scenery deteriorated, Tidus looked around him, looked back at Cosmos, and suddenly Chaos was floating in front of her.

      -“On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.”

      That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?

      Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.

    • clide88
      clide88 8 April, 2011, 20:19

      – “Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.”

      Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that scene.

      – “Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).

      Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.”

      I’ll admit I haven’t played that far into the game yet (not on the 012 version, anyway), otherwise I may have caught that revision as well. I’ll also admit I find Golbez WAY cooler than Kuja, too, and I tend to focus more on the characters I like the most, quite naturally.

      Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.

      – “It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before?”

      Also a good point, but perhaps the developers differentiated between short-distance teleportation and long-distance teleportation. It is somewhat logical, after all, and Chaos teleporting back to his homeworld would also require him to teleport himself across dimensions, not just from one spot to another on the current planet he’s dwelling.

      It could also just be the developers didn’t think about it. I suppose you can’t expect them to cover EVERY detail (or maybe you should expect it…I don’t know), and like I said earlier, it’s just a presupposition off the top of my head.

      – “That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?

      Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.”

      Yeah, I have no idea about that, either.

      I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 19:20

      -“Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.”

      I very much appreciate your help. =) I’m glad you like the FAQ.

      -“I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.”

      I’ll be looking forward to it!

  6. Shady
    #6 Shady 8 April, 2011, 06:04

    Slight disagreement on the comment about Shantotto in the “Why was Cloud ever on Chaos’ side to begin with?” section.

    While Shantotto is indeed ruthless and seems to have erased Mercy from her dictionary, her heart’s in the right place. In XI, she’s fiercely loyal to the Federation of Windurst (her home nation) and was an active participant in saving the world on at least 3 accounts (providing valuable enemy information to the Allied Nations during the Crystal War, going undercover to assess the situation in Aht Urhgan, and showed up at the last moment to stop Domina and Bella Shantotto from Shantottofying everyone in Vana’diel).

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 20:09

      I’ll concede that I sounded a bit too harsh on Shantotto there. That was meant to be a joke, but it didn’t come across as such, did it?

  7. DeltaRay
    #7 DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 20:56

    BTW im really loving the analysis plot not just this game I read the other analysis plots from other FF games.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 17:29

      Thanks.

      Which others have you read?

  8. Sephiroth_Owa13
    #8 Sephiroth_Owa13 9 April, 2011, 00:57

    Hm, I have a question for you if you can answer it. It’s more of something that I’m curious about really.

    It’s clear that Jecht went from team Cosmos to teams Chaos, but were other villains who were once warriors of Cosmos as well? Say like Golbez, Kuja, or even Sephiroth?

    It’s pretty clear why I ask for Golbez and to a point Kuja. But the reason why I ask for Sephiroth is because as you said in your FAQ, Sephiroth doesn’t seem to have a lot of memories of his home world as Cloud does. Which seems very off to me and sort of reminds me of how Jecht was in the first Dissidia. When the Emperor told him that he was once a warrior of Cosmos he seemed very surprised by it. Then there’s the fact that Sephiroth summons the Masamune in a flash of light like the heroes do, versus just carrying it around like the villains. Also he vanishes in a flash of light sort of the same way Kuja does when he dies.

    So I’m really wondering if at some point Sephiroth was a warrior of Cosmos, something happened and he was defeated, and when he woke up he was a warrior of Chaos with almost no memories. Or is it just SE nodding their head at Sephiroth’s hero status before Nibelheim?

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 12:39

      I think that Seph manifesting his weapon as the heroes do is just referencing his hero status prior to the razing of Nibelheim.

      I don’t think he was ever on Cosmos’s team. Changing sides shouldn’t affect homeworld memories, as both Cloud and Jecht seem to retain the significant amounts of it they’d recovered.

      Also, unlike Kuja, they wouldn’t really need to feed him false memories or goad him into fighting, so tampering with whatever memories he had shouldn’t have been necessary.

    • Sephiroth_Owa13
      Sephiroth_Owa13 9 April, 2011, 18:49

      Okay, cool. Thanks for answering. It’s something I’ve wondered about because I’ve been trying to figure out at what point everyone came from their game. With some it’s pretty clear (like Kuja and Zidane I’m sure they’re post game), with others it’s a guess.

  9. DeltaRay
    #9 DeltaRay 9 April, 2011, 18:22

    Ah ok I definetely Agree then yea the pyreflies with the villains so that obviously isnt it then, wonder what truly is the reason behind for not being able to revive heroes killed by munchkins

    Reply to this comment
  10. Squall_of_SeeD
    #10 Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 22:28

    Just wanted to keep everyone informed: all necessary updates have been applied at this point. =)

    Thanks again to everyone (here and elsewhere) who has commented and strived to improve the article!

    Reply to this comment
  11. jammi568
    #11 jammi568 10 April, 2011, 17:06

    Appreciated that you added my question to the FAQ. As one of my college (high school to Americans) teachers said – “If you have a question about something, chances are that someone else will also have it.”

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 10 April, 2011, 18:14

      You’re very welcome. =) And, yes, your teacher was right.

  12. clide88
    #12 clide88 13 April, 2011, 03:18

    As promised, I do in fact have a few more questions.

    How exactly are the characters in Dissidia able to perform some of the feats they do? I know your article mentions the concepts of Ex Mode and the supernatural abilities that accompany it, but what about abilities such as Free Air Dash? With the except of Advent Children, it’s not really known for the characters to be able to perform such a stunt like boosting themselves forward (or backward, in the case of Reverse Free Air Dash) in mid-air. On that note, where do they derive the power to perform magic in this game? Cloud’s arsenal of bravery attacks include numerous fire spells, yet Materia (presumably) doesn’t exist in the Dissidia world; Squall, likewise, can performs attacks such as Thunder Bullet and Fusillade, yet he doesn’t have GFs to junction magic attacks. If there is some other element that allows magic to be performed by all the characters in Dissidia, that might also provide a more satisfactory answer to why Terra and Kefka are able to use magic (though “a wizard did it” is certainly satisfying enough for me given all the other things that have occurred in the game).

    Any insight on that topic would be most interesting.

    On a completely different and much more minute topic, what causes Squall’s crystal at the end of Chapter 7 in Light to All (Destiny Odyssey VIII) to emit a light pointing toward Bartz? I’ve wondered how it was able to react like that since my first playthrough of Dissidia.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 17 April, 2011, 11:41

      Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.

      Stuff like Free Air Dash I won’t even attempt to address. =P I’ll be straight up with you on that. And I don’t think we’re really meant to. That sort of thing has got to be just gameplay-related.

      As for magic in general, thanks for bringing up those points. Tifa and Cloud do, indeed, use magic despite us having no reason to believe they have materia. Squall could be given a pass, perhaps, since one can still use para-magic in the world he comes from without junctioning GFs — though that still leaves points like Laguna never running out of ammunition.

      Yuna, meanwhile, even has her aeons back, despite the game making it clear that her pilgrimage and Tidus’s death is in the past tense for her.

      “A wizard did it” really is the best and only explanation. Some folk who are dead set on trying to bring the game down or don’t like to picture it as canon may not ever accept that, but you can’t reason with a fool who chooses to be a fool knowingly anyway.

      In answer to your last question about Chapter 7 of Light to All/Destiny Odyssey VIII … a wizard did it? =P

      No, I’m kidding. Your guess is as good as mine, really. Probably something to do with the crystals being born from a combination of the heroes’ resolve and Cosmos’s own power, so it pointed in the direction his heart was set.

    • clide88
      clide88 18 April, 2011, 01:41

      – “Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.”

      Full-time college student with a full-time job right here. You have my understanding.

      Another point of interest (for me, anyway) that I came across occurs in Chapter 10/Destiny Odyssey I. From the beginning of cycle 013 Warrior of Light seems to recognize Garland (or at least knows who he is), made evident during the scene between the two before WOL battles him the first time before ever leaving Order’s Sanctuary. WOL refers to Garland by name, yet he should have no memory of Garland since Team Cosmos lost the previous cycle and, as made abundantly clear, Dissidia chronologically predates FFI, so there’s no “homeworld memories” argument to obfuscate the matter.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 19 April, 2011, 21:09

      He knows him because the story of cycle 013 apparently begins a good while after that cycle had already begun. Remember, the opening to the original Dissidia is actually part of the story.

      And the Silent Presage scenes included in the releases of Dissidia outside Japan (and in the Universal Tuning rerelease in Japan) took place before that opening battle sequence.

      That clear things up?

    • clide88
      clide88 22 April, 2011, 00:48

      The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?

      I also would like to point something out regarding your well thought out Garland timeline (I could actually have a lengthy discussion on that topic, but I’ll keep it brief). You suggested Garland from World B was transported to World A after Dissidia, transported back in time by Chaos/himself, and then thrown back into the world of Dissidia, explaining why he remembers the time loop from FFI. However, in the opening scene for the Inherited Memories gateway in the 013 epilogue, we see this exchange between Golbez and Garland:

      Golbez: “What is it that you know? Who ARE you?”

      Garland: “Nothing so dire as you imagine. I was once made a prisoner of a time loop. The Great Will saved me from that fate. In return, I agreed to carry out a task.”

      While this doesn’t discredit your conjecture, it seems to provide a discrepancy. Again, you suggested Garland, after traveling to World A following Dissidia, is pulled into the time loop and sent by Chaos back into the Dissidia universe. Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop. This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?

      It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a “prisoner” of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.

      …Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief. Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.

  13. Theophanes
    #13 Theophanes 16 April, 2011, 13:30

    Excellent work!
    However trying to seperate heads from tails in a story that involves two cycles and time space rift is impossible 😛 I would very much like to hear your thoughts on these two points
    1) if they propose that dissidia is a prequel to FFI how come Garland says to Chaos ( in shade impulse) that when he was on the verge of death it was chaos who sent him 2000 years in the past? that happens in FFI after WOL defeats garland for kidnapping the princess :s that puts dissidia after FFI

    2)Also the text entry says that WOL heads to cornelia with a darkened crystal in hand. But the WOLs had shinning crystals that they used (along with defeating each fiend) to restore the light to the apropriate big crystals. It seems like WOL returning with a darkened crystal means he returns to a peaceful world of FFI -after its ending-

    Reply to this comment
  14. Squall_of_SeeD
    #14 Squall_of_SeeD Author 17 April, 2011, 11:48

    Thank you for your compliments. =)

    In address to your questions:

    1) I talk about this in the section about Garland in the FAQ. For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.

    He’s mortally wounded by them, left on the floor dying, and then Chaos pulls him through time — but also drops him off in World B, where he resides until meeting Cosmos, Cid and Chaos (Garland’s own past self).

    After Dissidia ends, he’ll go back to where he last was before entering World B: 2000 years in World A’s past. He’ll then gain more power, become Chaos once again, and reach across time to the future to save his past self, who is dying after being defeated by the Warriors of Light.

    At least that’s how it will go until he’s defeated by the Warriors of Light before being able to pull his past self across time. Who knows what becomes of things after that.

    2) That is a good observation. However, since the Warrior of Light was born on World B during the conflict of Dissidia, he’s never been to World A until the ending of cycle 013. He couldn’t have taken part in the events of the first FF yet.

    Someone made a mistake there, it sounds like.

    Reply to this comment
    • Theophanes
      Theophanes 17 April, 2011, 20:28

      -For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.-
      Thats the crazy part lol. he is defeated by WOL before dissidia while WOL doesnt get in that world until after dissidia!

      Damn SE and those loops! :p

  15. DeltaRay
    #15 DeltaRay 17 April, 2011, 19:10

    No wonder… Whenever I saw the ending for original Dissidia I would get a nostalgic feeling that the ending of Dissidia was the beginning of FF1, because the scene staring at cornelia castle “warriors will be holding crystals”,Also Im starting to think the crystal that WOL obtained in dissidia somehow “revives” or powers up the ones being guarded by the elemental fiends.

    Reply to this comment
  16. Squall_of_SeeD
    #16 Squall_of_SeeD Author 22 April, 2011, 18:58

    Response to clide88:

    “The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?”

    I imagine it was left out for disc space considerations. Even the Silent Presage cutscenes and the primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out, after all, and Cid of the Lufaine’s voice-over monologues about the heroes during each of their chapters are heavily abridged from what they were in the Destiny Odysseys of the first game. Each is cut by about half.

    You can also tell at a glance that the cutscenes from the original game were compressed at a lower quality in order to fit them all on the disc.

    In any case, as an example of how the FMV opening from the original game actually fits into the story, recall that the last shot of it is of the Warrior of Light laying face down on the ground in the vicinity of Order’s Sanctuary — exactly how we find him at the beginning of the Prologue segment of cycle 013, both in the original game and this one.

    The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.

    “Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop.”

    I don’t think it necessarily suggests that the Great Will pulled him from anywhere. Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.

    He speaks of hearing Chaos’s/his own voice explain the existence of the time loop to him as he was saved while on the verge of death at the hands of the Warriors of Light in Cornelia, and that he found himself on World B, thinking he had been taken 2000 years to the past of World A.

    I think Garland’s comment about the Great Will saving him is merely a mistake on Garland’s part. He thought this because he was confused as to why he was there in the conflict of Dissidia to begin with if he was supposed to have been taken to World A’s past.

    If the events of Dissidia are just part of the overall timeloop of the first FF, Garland probably didn’t know that at first. It seems like he figured it out once he realized that the cycle would be coming to an end, though. That’s probably why he tells Chaos the truth about their relationship toward the end of Shade Impulse/the Epilogue.

    Also, notice that in the same conversation with Golbez that you mentioned, Garland says “…There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. As long as he is me… .” That contradicts what Garland said earlier in their conversation about the Great Will saving him.

    So, yeah, I think Garland just thought that he’d been saved from the time loop, but realized he was still in it once he found out the Dissidia conflict was ending. After all, it was supposed to last forever — or at least until Chaos grew powerful enough to do what Cid wanted.

    “This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?”

    I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.

    “It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a ‘prisoner’ of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.”

    Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.

    “…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief.”

    No doubt. Have you seen the FAQ that Sir Bahamut, TheOnionKnight and I did on FFVIII?:

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/34215

    “Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.”

    Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis. I hope my response was illuminating in some way.

    Reply to this comment
    • clide88
      clide88 25 April, 2011, 20:23

      “Even the…primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out…”

      Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012. I imagine it was primarily due to space constraints, as well (given that it’s still mentioned in Sephiroth’s profile), but I still felt jipped, maybe just because VII’s my favorite title. But seriously, would a two-disc game have been all that bad? Type-0, after all, is rumored to span two UMDs.

      “The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.”

      I didn’t catch onto that. At least it all makes sense now.

      “Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.”

      Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated? We hear Garland in-game mention on two occasions that the Great Will pulled him into the Dissidia realm: the first is the aforementioned exchange between him and Golbez; the second is while speaking with Chaos (in the Epilogue/Shade Impulse). Garland states: “Before the Great Will led me to
      this realm, when I was on the edge of death, it was you who sent me two
      thousand years into the past.” He clearly acknowledges Chaos as transporting him through time while simultaneously denoting the Great Will as separately having brought him to the Dissidia realm (transporting him through space, if you will).

      In Report 12 there are certainly implications, but I never read where it was explicitly stated that Chaos transported him across dimensions (if I overlooked something, please correct me!). To me it seems to be a logical assumption that Chaos did so, but given the in-game conversations it seems to me that the Great Will is responsible.

      As far as whether Garland said the Great Will did because he was mistaken, I guess that’s subject to perspective (unless, again, if I have missed something that definitively proves otherwise). It seems, however, to be unlikely for the sake of storytelling. Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?

      “I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.”

      Even time has a genesis. It merely cannot be established without more information. In other words, given the lack of information we’re given in Dissidia/FFI about the time loops (as well as FFVIII), yes, I would concur.

      On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!

      “Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.”

      The manner in which Garland presented these revelations to Golbez implied (at least to me) a much more emotionally invested response that simply being told about doesn’t produce. Only experiencing the catastrophe personally would elicit such a deep and heavy lamentation. That being said, I certainly could have perceived that conversation incorrectly and Garland was in fact merely told about it without experiencing it. I don’t know, though; it really did seem like his words were too heavy to not have experienced the time loop for a cycle or. Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.

      “Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis.”

      I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 29 April, 2011, 13:39

      -“Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012.”

      It really should have been. That was one of the things that I believe a great many fans were looking forward to seeing depicted.

      -“Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated?”

      In Report 12 he speaks of Chaos/his future self transporting him several times:

      “I heard a voice speak to me as I laid
      dying–and that voice was my own.

      My words were the only clues I had of the
      realm in which I found myself–in which I
      assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years.”

      “In the present, I no longer have an interest
      in carrying my future self back to the past.”

      “As I imagined the hatred building inside me
      that would eventually and inevitably lead me to
      make a irreparable mistake, all I could do
      was cower in fear.”

      “I often think of the start of the cycle.

      I as Chaos summon me from the future;
      once summoned, I become Chaos.”

      He also speaks of encountering Cid/the Great Will after he’s been wandering for a while, so there’s no indication from his monologue that Cid had anything to do with him appearing there — even if Garland came to believe so himself for whatever reason. For that matter, Cid’s own monologuing from Chaos Report 4 in the first game doesn’t imply that he summoned Garland; only that he came across him in the same way that Garland came across Cid.

      -“Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?”

      Well, it does serve the purpose for the plot of explaining why Garland ever agreed in the first place to assist the Great Will in all these shenanigans.

      -“On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!”

      Thanks for your compliments. =) Glad you enjoyed.

      -“Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.”

      Me neither. I just can’t see any other way at the moment that the plot would work otherwise. Especially since Cid’s own monologue — and the circumstances under which Garland encounters him (prior even to Cid gaining his disembodied form from Shinryu) — don’t imply the GW to have had any hand in Garland’s appearance on World B.

      -“I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.”

      They have. Thank you again. =)

    • clide88
      clide88 30 April, 2011, 18:46

      Something else that occurred to me to refute my presupposition is that Cid didn’t have access to World A, given that his goal was to cross the door in the Rift to reach his world. So yeah, there’s not really a way he could’ve even accomplished transporting Garland from World A to World B. He couldn’t even get back to World A himself!

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 1 May, 2011, 01:46

      That’s a good point too. Hadn’t thought about that.

  17. B
    #17 B 24 April, 2011, 06:27

    Perhaps Chaos could summon warriors and couldn’t just teleport himself and Cid because it works one way and not the other? Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos. In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 24 April, 2011, 23:10

      -“Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos.”

      It would most likely be that those worlds have been shattered and fused into World B.

      -“In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.”

      It’s a good question, really, whether the World A version is part of the Katamari ball. It’s not entirely clear. My guess would be yes since the Chaos Shrine shows up as part of gateways and such.

    • B
      B 25 April, 2011, 22:57

      But shattered by what? A consequence of the fact that Chaos and Cosmos fight, rather than intentional reaching for the other worlds on their parts?

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 29 April, 2011, 13:43

      It seems to have been a deliberate action on the gods’ part, probably at the same time as when they acquired their warriors. Here’s what Golbez had to say on the matter:

      “This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods.”

  18. B
    #18 B 24 April, 2011, 06:28

    I meant “is it established”, not “it is established”.

    Reply to this comment
  19. B
    #19 B 1 May, 2011, 00:22

    I read in other summaries that Chaos went crazy in 018 in the “Confessions of the Creator” alterniverse because he kept losing to Cosmos, not because he kept winning. For instance, here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_Chaos

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 4 May, 2011, 14:21

      That was a misunderstanding some of us had early on, but, no, Cid is very specific that Cosmos lost every time in the 000 story:

      “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification.”

  20. Black Jesus
    #20 Black Jesus 2 May, 2011, 23:44

    Has anyone ever considered that Cid, Chaos and Cosmos’ powered are limited to this world only and would not allow them to escape while still allowing them to pull others in from outside?

    Reply to this comment

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