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Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ

by April 5, 2011 56 comments


• Why do warriors who die and are then revived at the beginning of a new cycle not have memories of the prior cycles?
Shinryu eats those memories to become stronger. This is made evident via a number of sources in-game.

First, the text-only portion of Report 13 quotes Shinryu’s agreement with Cid, albeit in fragmented sentences. Notably, Shinryu said this:

“‘Fight and gain power.
…offer unto me that power.’
‘If…corpse should…offered,
I shall ready anew…purified vessel.'”

From that, we can infer that Shinryu wants the warriors of Cosmos and Chaos to fight and gain power, offer him that power, and that if he is presented dead bodies at a cycle’s end, he will revive them.

Next, looking at the text-only portion of Report 14, we find this passage:

“The summoned, debilitated through battle,
are purified by Shinryu.
Their memories are returned to the state
of when they were first summoned.”

Where do these memories go? Certainly we see it demonstrated between cycle 012 and cycle 013 that those dead at the end of a cycle do not have memories of past cycles in the next.

The in-game Museum’s profiles for Shinryu and Shinryu Verus finally pinpoints exactly what becomes of those memories:

“A celestial dragon adorned with old armor, Shinryu uses his purification of the battlefield to absorb the summoned warriors’ experience as power adding to his own.

Shinryu visited this world that wavers within the interdimensional Rift on a whim as just another place of rest. Some time later, two immense powers began to combat one another, and Shinryu took an interest in the inhabitants of this realm. There, he made a pact with a human.

In return for giving this mortal an immortal soul, one without form, he would be given the experience and memories of the summoned warriors. The purification ritual Shinryu used was a way for him to remain a spectator and still receive even more power regularly.”

“As compensation for lending a hand in the conflict of the gods, Shinryu adds to its strength by absorbing the experience reaped by the warriors of either side.”

• Why do warriors not have any memories of their past when first summoned to the war?
This is never really explained anywhere in either Dissidia game, but it may be that it’s a consequence of their worlds being shattered and all the life forms in those realms being reduced to disembodied consciousnesses.

• How do the warriors regain memories of their homeworlds?
If, as Report 14 says, the memories of the warriors of Chaos and Cosmos who die and undergo purification get restored to the state they were when that warrior first entered the war, how is it that warriors recover more memories of their homeworlds as time goes on?

For example, Cecil did not remember that Golbez was his brother during cycle 012, but in cycle 013, he did. How is this possible?

Apparently, it’s just a natural consequence of repeated participation in the cycles that warriors regain the memories of their homes, even if their memories of previous cycles are lost to Shinryu. As Golbez explained to Kain during Chapter 6 of the Treachery of the Gods storyline from Dissidia 012 (the conversation is repeated during Report 4), warriors who have been involved in the war the longest have more memories of their homeworlds than those who have not:

Golbez: “You were bested in battle, and revived to fight anew. The process
of your revival required your memories be purged. You’ve forgotten that
the cycle repeats itself, and thus you mistrust my words. Look to your
deeper memories, and you will see the proof of what I say.”
Kain: “What deeper memories?”
Golbez: “Those who are summoned to this world arrive with almost no
recollection of their past. But you–you remember Cecil and I. You have
memories of our homeworld. The more that you fight, the more those
memories will return.”

It’s also established through the conversations and events of Report 5 that fighting others from one’s homeworld will return one’s memories faster than fighting those who are not.

Finally, the ability to retain memories of one’s homeworld while losing memories of previous cycles is directly stated to be the case shortly before the main party from cycle 012 reaches the Rift crevice where the manikins were coming through. On Floor 02 of the To a Foreign World gateway, Tifa mentions to Yuna that she could retain her memories of Tidus into the next cycle if she chose to let herself die in a way other than at the hands of manikins, even though she would lose her knowledge of the cycles: “Your memories are from your homeworld. You won’t forget him even if you slept.”

• Do the warriors of Chaos and Cosmos age during the cycles?
According to the text-only portion of Report 16, they do not age due to the time irregularities associated with the conflict:

“Lifespans exceed that of what
the summoned can sustain without
purification.

Confirmed that not only the divine
but all life in this realm are unaging.
The time-space continuum in this
realm must be warped.”


• Are all of the heroes and villains manikins?
A widely contended theory since the first Dissidia game came out, could the heroes and villains featured in the Dissidia Final Fantasy series all be manikins? Chaos Report 5 from the first game speaks of experiments Cid had conducted to give physical form to disembodied consciousnesses. Though the failures were discarded into the Interdimensional Rift, he also speaks of at least one success: “After countless experiments, finally my testing reached success.”

Many fans felt that if these failures (identified as the manikins in Chaos Report 8 ) were featured in the first game, then so, too, must any successful experiments. They concluded that these successful experiments, then, must be the heroes and villains featured in the game, with possible exceptions being Garland and the Warrior of Light.

Indeed, the cutscene in Report 15 of Dissidia 012 references this idea, as the Onion Knight expresses worry to Zidane that they may all be manikins.

As detailed above, the Warrior of Light is confirmed in Dissidia 012 to, in fact, be a perfect manikin. Could all the heroes then be?

No. Cid only ever speaks of creating one such perfect experiment. Furthermore, in Reports 15 and 16, he speaks of there already being summoned warriors involved in the war of Dissidia before he began experiments to create a perfect manikin. After creating this successful experiment, he also says in Report 16 that he would send him into battle with the summoned warriors.

The cutscenes from Report 18 depict the Warrior of Light arriving on the world ravaged by Dissidia’s war, and then being discovered by Prishe, who takes him to Cosmos. Note that he was found by Prishe, meaning she was there before him — also meaning that she is real since he was the first perfect manikin that Cid created during Dissidia.

Even were there more unmentioned successful manikin experiments later, at the very least, Prishe, Gabranth and Shantotto were already involved in the war, and were, therefore, real. That being the case, there’s no reason to doubt the others, as Square Enix was clearly not afraid to involve genuine Final Fantasy characters in Dissidia.

In addition, it seems clear that anyone who is able to recover memories from before their time in the war is real. The Warrior of Light, who is a manikin, was without memory when created, even though he was created from Cid’s memories. He has no recollection of anything prior to the war of Dissidia — not even before he was introduced by Prishe to Cosmos, and became both one of her chosen as well as subject to the cycles of Dissidia.

He simply didn’t exist before Dissidia and couldn’t have memories from prior to its war. Presumably, the same would be true of any perfect manikin, and, thus, would apply to the other heroes if they were also manikins.

Note as well that the Warrior of Light never recovers any memories of a life before, even during the Shade Impulse portion of cycle 013 when Squall is remembering Rinoa. Being a manikin, he had nothing to remember, while they — being authentic — did.

In fact, pretty much every warrior of Chaos and Cosmos recovers memories at some point. Firion remembers more about the wild rose as time goes on. Cecil, Kain and Golbez remember their relationships to one another and their homeworld. Bartz remembers Boco and Galuf (Galuf is referenced in the cutscenes from Report 12). Terra remembers airships on her homeworld.

Cloud and Sephiroth regain the memories of their world, while Tifa feels nostalgic upon hearing Cloud’s name in Report 5. Squall recalls his dreams of Laguna while looking at his manikin during cycle 013, and then remembers Rinoa later. Ultimecia certainly remembers Time Compression, and comments to Squall in the Shade Impulse portion of the first Dissidia that they both came from the same world.

Zidane and Kuja seemingly remember events all the way up to the ending of Final Fantasy IX in the subplot depicted in Report 1. Tidus, Jecht and Yuna all remember people and events from Spira.

Of the warriors of Cosmos, the Onion Knight is the only other hero one could reasonably suspect of being a manikin given that he never seems to mention anything from his past or homeworld. This — and the fact that he was the one to bring up the concern of being a manikin to Zidane — was likely intended by the writers as something of a tongue-in-cheek reference to the fact that Final Fantasy III got a remake on the Nintendo DS that gave names and personalities to the Onion Knight characters who were blank slates in the original 8-bit Nintendo version of FFIII.

While the Dissidia titles never make any effort to identify whether he’s supposed to be one of the Onion Knights from the DS version of FFIII or one of the nameless avatars for the player in the original FFIII, he is still authentic. Cid only ever mentions creating one perfect manikin, and given that the Onion Knight is shown going home like the other heroes in the ending to cycle 013, he’s presented the same as them.

That sequence in which they return to their homeworlds is actually an indication of all of the heroes being real. On pg. 658 of the Dissidia Final Fantasy Ultimania, in a paragraph talking about the game’s Secret Ending scene, it says that the heroes go home to their worlds — meaning they had to be the real deal:

“This event depicts Cosmos’s status after the warriors have returned to each world.”

[Japanese form of this line:
このイベントは、戦士たちがそれぞれの世界へ帰ったあとの、コスモスの様子を描いたもの。]

In any event, the Onion Knight’s in-game profile under the Museum mentions that he does have memories to recover, such as his name, but that he just hadn’t yet: “He does not mention his name simply because he has yet to remember it…”

One must also ask themselves why WoL would be given such especial attention in both the text-only portions of the Reports speaking of his creation as a perfect manikin, as well as a cutscene from Report 18 depicting when he was imbued with Cosmos’s power.

Were he just one of ten or more such warriors, it all rings a little hollow.

In any event, the Warrior of Light’s in-game Museum profile confirms that he was the only warrior created by Cid/the Great Will:

“Holding no prior memories of his past, the Warrior of Light behaves as other warriors summoned by Cosmos, but he himself was not summoned by the goddess. In truth, he is the only warrior created in this realm by the Great Will.”

The Confessions of the Creator storyline also says the same of him:

“Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself. They dwindled until the last–the only one born in this realm–finally perished…”

There is no doubt whatsoever: other than the Warrior of Light, Cosmos and Chaos, the heroes and villains featured in the Dissidia Final Fantasy series are not manikins.

• If the warriors of Cosmos aren’t manikins, how do you explain this line from Report 16?

“Manikins with transplanted memories gain
Cosmos’s powers.”

It says “Manikins” with an “s” — so it’s plural. How does one explain this?

I explain it as being a translation error. The original Japanese line offered no indication of plurality or singularity, but — as seen in the response to the previous question — the game does go to the trouble of explicitly stating on more than one occasion that the Warrior of Light was the only successful manikin created by Cid; even the only warrior involved in the conflict who had been born in the realm of Dissidia.

Here, by the way, is the Japanese text of that line: “記憶を定着させたイミテーションがコスモスの力を得る.”

The mistranslation isn’t all that unprecedented either considering that Report 7 has 光の戦士 (“hikari no senshi”) translated as “Warrior of Light” (singular) when the prophecy spoken of there is in reference to Lukahn’s prophecy about the four Warriors of Light in the first Final Fantasy. The English translation of Cosmos Report 10 — which is drawn from the same Japanese text (the first seven Reports of Dissidia 012 are identical to the 10 Cosmos Reports from the first game) — got it right, rendering “Warrior” in the plural.


• Which warriors have been fighting in the war the longest?
As Golbez explained to Kain in Chapter 6 of Dissidia 012 (the conversation was repeated in Report 4), those warriors who have been involved in the war the longest have more memories of their homeworlds than those who have not. Kain, for instance, has more memories than does Cecil, so Kain has been involved in the war longer than Cecil.

This concept, then, invites us to wonder who has been involved in the war the longest. While impossible to know for certain beyond Garland being there from the beginning (per Chaos Report 4 from the first Dissidia, and Report 12 in Dissidia 012), we can determine who has been around less time than others in many cases:

  • Garland was there before the Warrior of Light, of course, but his in-game profile under the Museum still says the WoL became one of Cosmos’s chosen at a time when the war of Dissidia had just begun. He may have been introduced as early as cycle 001
  • Firion has few memories of his homeworld during cycle 012, so he is likely relatively new. Even the name of the wild rose arouses but a sense of nostalgia in him
  • Kain and Golbez, of course, have more memories than Cecil, so they have been around longer than him. Whether Golbez or Kain were introduced to the war first is unclear
  • Bartz has few memories other than clear ones of Boco and hazy ones of Galuf, so he is probably rather new. Exdeath, meanwhile, is said to have most of his homeworld memories in his Museum profile, so he has been around for quite some time
  • Terra doesn’t seem to have many memories of her homeworld other than knowledge of what airships are, so she is likely quite new as well
  • Cloud has more memories of his homeworld than Sephiroth, so he has been around the longer of the two. In the first story segment of Report 5, Tifa is identified as a newcomer to the war for cycle 012, so Cloud has been around longer than her as well. Whether Sephiroth or Tifa been around longest is not entirely clear. When Sephiroth and Tifa’s fight from Report 5 begins, though Seph does comment “You don’t remember me. How very tragic,” he’d also apparently just learned from Kefka that Tifa was even from the same world as he
  • Squall doesn’t remember Rinoa until the Shade Impulse portion of cycle 013, so it’s likely that he is pretty new. It’s unclear how long he’s been around in comparison to Laguna or Ultimecia, nor is it indicated how much Laguna is able to remember of his homeworld
  • Zidane is able to remember all the way up to the events of FFIX’s ending, as he remembers Kuja had reformed. Kuja also remembers up to that point. Both have probably been around longer than Firion, Cecil, Bartz, Terra, Sephiroth and Squall
  • Yuna and Jecht both seem to have most of their memories from their homeworlds. Tidus, however, remembers only Jecht — and even then, not everything about him — and must be relatively new
  • Prishe and Shantotto were both around prior to the Warrior of Light’s arrival, per Report 18. It’s not specified how much they remember of Van’adiel
  • How much Vaan remembers of his homeworld is unclear, though he is shown to remember airships. It’s also unclear how much Gabranth remembers, or how long he was involved in the war. He was around before the Warrior of Light, though, like Shantotto and Prishe (per Reports 8 and 18 )
  • Lightning has few of her memories, so she may have been around for only one or two cycles

• What prompts the need for new additions to the war?
Why are there new additions to the cycles? In all likelihood, it’s at least partly because of the matter mentioned in the text-only portion of Report 14 — some warriors’ bodies are unable to withstand the grueling process of purification at the end of a cycle/beginning of a new cycle:

“The summoned, debilitated through battle,
are purified by Shinryu.

Their memories are returned to the state
of when they were first summoned.

Three damaged bodies, unable to withstand
purification, have perished.”

In the Confessions of the Creator storyline, Cid of the Lufaine also mentions that Shinryu will erase warriors at times:

“I had thought Shinryu’s purification was the power to revive the dead. But in reality– –he was absorbing the experience of warriors that had yet to die, returning them to fight. Once a warrior had no more to give, he was erased, no matter how honorable he was.”

• Where do Chaos and Cosmos get new warriors?
It’s actually simple enough to explain where more warriors could be drawn from given that Chaos Report 5 from the first Dissidia mentions the free-floating consciousnesses that are a consequence of Dissidia’s world being a Katamari ball of all the shattered FF worlds. Chaos and Cosmos could easily pluck up these consciousnesses for use as more warriors just as Cid tried using some of them to create what ended up being regular manikins.

The Warrior of Light is a unique case, being a perfect manikin produced by Cid from his own memories, and then sent down to Dissidia’s world of battle. According to his in-game profile under the Museum, he could have become a warrior of Chaos or of Cosmos — it all depended on which god imbued him with their power first.

• Does the story of Dissidia truly end at cycle 013?
The 000: Confessions of the Creator story mode from Dissidia 012 explains that the war of Dissidia didn’t end with cycle 013, depicting the twentieth and final cycle. Inward Chaos from the first Dissidia, meanwhile, depicts Chaos possessing even more power than he had in cycle 013.

How is any of this possible?

Didn’t both games’ stories emphasize that cycle 013 was the end? Pg. 658 of the Dissidia Final Fantasy Ultimania even said the following in reference to the first game’s Secret Ending, making it clear that the warriors of Cosmos went home in the ending where they are depicted departing one by one:

“This event depicts Cosmos’s status after the warriors have returned to each world.”

[Japanese form of this line:
このイベントは、戦士たちがそれぞれの世界へ帰ったあとの、コスモスの様子を描いたもの。]

How, then, is a cycle 020 possible?

Worry not. It’s explained in the Reports and Museum profiles that Confessions of the Creator is simply a nightmare world in which Cid of the Lufaine’s soul was sealed by Chaos at the end of cycle 013. This was planned by Shinryu in retaliation for Cid trying to end the war of Dissidia. First mention of this comes from the text-only portion of Report 19:

“But when his powers began being
used for destruction, Chaos
began to feel a hatred for Cid.

And when he became aware of his
own demise, he imprisoned his
own creator into ‘the other
realm’–of nightmares from which
you can never wake.”

It’s later spoken of again in Chaos, Shinryu and Cid’s Museum profiles:

(In Chaos’s)
“Upon learning that the Great Will sought an end to the conflict in the thirteenth cycle–for Chaos to be destroyed–Chaos gave into despair. Defeated by Cosmos’s warriors and fading into oblivion, Chaos accepts an offer from Shinryu to have the Great Will’s soul sealed away.”

(In Shinryu’s)
“Shinryu visited this world that wavers within the interdimensional Rift on a whim as just another place of rest. Some time later, two immense powers began to combat one another, and Shinryu took an interest in the inhabitants of this realm. There, he made a pact with a human.

In return for giving this mortal an immortal soul, one without form, he would be given the experience and memories of the summoned warriors. The purification ritual Shinryu used was a way for him to remain a spectator and still receive even more power regularly.

Yet when that human breached their pact after just the thirteenth cycle, Shinryu approached Chaos, who had also garnered strength himself with a plot of revenge against this detestable human.”

(In Cid’s)
“Having realized his sins, Cid creates two teleport stones to save the warriors in the thirteenth cycle. But this act incurred Shinryu’s wrath, and Cid’s soul was sealed with the last of Chaos’s fading powers.

Cid continually saw nightmares of a world where Chaos had grown to wield ultimate power in the thirteenth cycle until he was freed. Once someone freed him from his confinement and was able to revive alongside Cosmos, Cid sets out on a journey to a new realm.”

Chaos’s message at the end of Confessions of the Creator also confirms that Cid simply awakens in cycle 013 once that story is over: “Can you hear my voice? Cid has awakened–in the world in which I was felled in the 13th conflict.”

While the story of the 000 campaign is canon to the cycle 012-to-cycle 013 storyline, it’s only canon in so much as being trapped in that nightmare realm for a while is what really happened to Cid. The events depicted in that realm are not what really happened to everyone else.

The Museum profiles for the Warrior of Light and Shinryu also confirm that the thirteenth cycle was the final one:

(In WoL’s)
“Shouldering the hopes and dreams of his fallen comrades and Cosmos, the Warrior succeeds in bringing about a true end to the cycle of conflict in the thirteenth cycle.

After the final cycle concludes, he arises in a foreign land–a pristine lake with a large castle looming in the distance. The Warrior of Light sets out towards the castle with a darkened crystal in his hand.”

(In Shinryu’s)
“Shinryu then seduced Chaos to release his remaining strength, and after consuming that, Shinryu once again departed to the interdimensional Rift.”

All this being said, the events of Confessions of the Creator could technically also be something that could come to pass in an alternate timeline, as with Inward Chaos. As Shinryu explained during Inward Chaos, when the warriors of Cosmos defeated Chaos at the end of cycle 013, his released energy created alternate realities:

“The instant Chaos was destroyed, the power of discord distorted the fabric of
time and space, creating a new realm of possibilities… That Chaos has never
known defeat. At the darkest edge of despair he waits, eternally tortured by
the flames of the abyss… Into the endless emptiness of Chaos’s heart, I,
Shinryu, shall let flow my power. This is a fantasy that ought not exist…
Moreover…it is one without end.”

This possibility for Confessions of the Creator is reinforced by the in-game Museum’s profile for Shinryu Verus, the ultimate form of Shinryu, which appears only in the 000 storyline:

“Shinryu Verus is the final form of Shinryu once it has imbued itself with enough strength.

Of the countless futures in existence, Shinryu Verus is born when the cycle and sacrifices reach an apex. The true extent of its strength lies beyond the comprehension of humans.”

In summary, Inward Chaos depicts an alternate timeline in which Chaos never lost cycle 013, nor any thereafter until his defeat in that story. Confessions of the Creator depicts a similar chain of events, and is something of an expanded version of Inward Chaos. It’s explained by Cid during the 000 story mode that in this vision of events, Cosmos continued to lose over and over, receiving purification after purification until she didn’t even have enough power to continue summoning warriors to fight for her; Chaos, meanwhile, became ever more powerful from Shinryu sharing power with him until Chaos went insane and killed not only Cosmos’s warriors, but his own as well — and then turned on Shinryu too:

(Presented as though Cid told the details as one continuous story without interruption by battles)
“The cycle of destruction and purification gave Chaos power–and corroded his mind. After the 18th purification, as soon as the next conflict began– Chaos lost himself. Leaping out of his throne, he thrashed the lands, eliminated Cosmos’s warriors– –and annihilated even the warriors he had summoned himself…

Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification. She would summon her warriors and send them to fight Chaos until they perished. No one knows how many of these warriors were sacrificed as disposable pawns…

Chaos was initially reluctant to fight Cosmos… Because Cosmos was a ‘manikin’ of the one who once loved and cared for Chaos. Thus, even after the conflict had begun, he would never inflict direct force onto her. It was when Chaos began to attack Cosmos without hesitation– –that I realized just how horrible the ‘cycle’ of my creation actually was.

Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself. They dwindled until the last–the only one born in this realm–finally perished…

Even with her warriors gone, Cosmos expended her life to sustain the world’s order. Solely to fulfill her mission–to let Chaos destroy the world, or himself… But it reached the point where Chaos’s next attack would mean the end for her. It was then that I took physical form as a moogle and headed to Order’s Sanctuary. I simply could not lose Cosmos…

Cosmos wished to fight until the end, but I pulled her out of Sanctuary. The Chasm in the Rotting Land would be unreachable to Chaos. So I sealed her away in the depths of that gateway…

The conflict of the gods had reached an end of sorts. Chaos now had immense powers, but the door to the Rift showed no signs of opening. I began to think Chaos would destroy the world, and all would return to the Void. But Chaos left the world untouched–and instead turned against Shinryu.

Shinryu and Chaos were equal in strength. It seemed the battle would never end. Chaos gained power through destruction, while Shinryu’s amassed power purified its wounds. Their colliding powers threatened to destroy the realm at any moment. So I decided– to cleave the northern continent, where they fought, from the south, where Cosmos slept…”

Again, let it be understood that neither the Inward Chaos nor Confessions of the Creator story modes’ developments of future cycles apply to the primary reality in which cycle 013 was the end.

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56 comments

  1. Ryushikaze
    #1 Ryushikaze 5 April, 2011, 18:49

    A quick point re: OK

    I don’t think it’s Luneth. If it is one of the new DS version heroes and not one of the OK from III, then I think it might be Ingus.

    Luneth is the archetypal ‘Rush in ASAP’ hero, regardless of who is involved. Ingus, by contrast, is much more reserved, wanting to examine a situation before leaping in, much like OK in Dissidia. Though Ingus certainly would not ‘fight only battles he was sure he could win’ he would do everything he could to maximize his chances.

    I reckon that OK is a younger Ingus, years before ever becoming a knight of Sasune.

    Besides, OK has his hair and his color scheme. It takes the Luneth Alt for OK to look anything like Luneth.

    Just my 2c.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 13:58

      Fair points. I’ll add mention of the similarities to Ingus in as well. Thanks, Ryu.

  2. Shikamarunara
    #2 Shikamarunara 5 April, 2011, 19:41

    I gotta ask, when was it stated that Chaos lost the 13th and several cycles afterwards in 000? Because I can’t find that stated in the game.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 14:04

      On a second look, you are right. I’d misinterpreted this line previously: “The Cycle of destruction and purification gave Chaos power and corroded his
      mind.”

      I’d taken this to mean that Chaos had received purification over and over (in which case he would have died), and that this had messed with his mind. However, it’s said that Cosmos herself receives purification over and over and loses power over time: “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification. … Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself.”

      I guess the reference to purification in the line about Chaos just means that he kept getting more and more powerful, and the increase in power made him insane.

      So, Confessions of the Creator is more like an expanded version of Inward Chaos then. Thanks for the correction. I’ll add it in, along with further thanks to you. =)

  3. I Am Not Me
    #3 I Am Not Me 6 April, 2011, 02:46

    Hi… er. Why is this posted under ‘Final Fantasy VII’?

    Also, your Seventh Heaven Strategy guide appears to be a dead link.

    PS: I’m still reading this article.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 14:06

      It’s under the “Final Fantasy VII” category because I forgot to add tags when I posted the article, and that’s the default tag. Thanks for pointing that out. I went ahead and fixed it just now.

      You finished reading the article and have anything else to add?

  4. DeltaRay
    #4 DeltaRay 7 April, 2011, 23:38

    I believe regarding manikins are truly merciless they have no will of their own they will continue slaughtering their victim including destroying their victims flesh which is why I even though Terra was nearly about to die she killed the manikins before they killed her and leads me to believe that if you have no Flesh Shynryu cant revive you, If the villains kill you they will leave your body but I believe manikins dont know any better so they will continue to slaughter a body.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 7 April, 2011, 23:43

      I’ve considered that possibility before, but since Shantotto apparently vaporized Gabranth and he was still brought back for the next round of the cycle, I don’t think it’s the case.

      Thanks for throwing that out there, though.

    • DeltaRay
      DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 05:02

      I though Gabranth ran away with shame after his defeat against Shantotto, and in the end he ended up in a place thats not in the gods battle ground or so it says on dissidia 013 game I cant remember where I read that.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 19:24

      Well, his profile says that he went into hiding after being defeated by Shantotto, but it’s clear from their fight that she killed him. So I assume it was in the next cycle that he went into hiding, once he’d been revived.

    • DeltaRay
      DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 20:47

      ah ok yea that makes sense but killing him doesnt mean she destroyed his flesh which is why I believe no body = no revive also doesnt shynryu keep reviving chars until they can no longer give him “experince”, I mean if a character has no body he cant really absorb their experience to make himself stronger because he only heals their body he doesnt make them their body if he made their body then that probably make them manikins which I believe they arent manikins.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 12:11

      Don’t the bodies of all the warriors of Chaos discorporate into black smoke upon death, though? So they really don’t have bodies when Shinryu arrives anyway.

      In any case, I thought Shantotto incinerated Gabranth. She said she would, and he wasn’t there after the battle.

  5. clide88
    #5 clide88 8 April, 2011, 00:49

    New here, but I had a few opinions/questions.

    First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?

    As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?

    When talking about Terra’s and Cloud’s survival, you said “Though Cloud wasn’t killed by a manikin, he was killed by his own side’s god…” That god being Chaos…who, as you noted, was in fact a manikin himself. Nothing really relevant there, I just found it amusing, though I could see someone not very pensive being confused by that.

    This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).

    As far as the inconsistencies mentioned at the end, I’ll give a few of them a shot:

    As far as Kuja being manipulated by several of the villains when Sephiroth wasn’t, all I can suggest is that Kuja was more emotionally/mentally fragile than Sephiroth, who wasn’t easily manipulated, if for no other reason than he more or less showed a disinterest in their ploys.

    About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.

    On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.

    Just some questions/thoughts. Feel free to correct me/shoot me down wherever necessary. I certainly haven’t put as much thought or effort into the storyline as you, so any theories I have may easily be explained by an oversight on my account.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 20:01

      First, thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful response. =)

      -“First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?”

      Yes, actually, that’s exactly how I would have described the gateways.

      -“As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?”

      Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.

      -“This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).”

      You know, that’s an excellent observation. Yeah, I’d agree — Golbez must have belonged to Cosmos at some point.

      Now that you bring it up, I notice that the original dialogue alluded to it, but they evidently realized that it wasn’t explicit enough and revised it. Here’s what it was in the original:

      Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
      Exdeath: “Indeed. He is a betrayer to the last.”
      Emperor: “I suppose it was only a matter of time until he became aware of the light within him… Nevertheless, we must resolve this issue before Shrinyu makes its move.”

      And here’s the new version:

      Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
      Exdeath: “Indeed, he is finally caught in the act. His inner light of harmony never faded.”
      Emperor: “A heart of light in a dark body… How intriguing. We must resolve this issue before Shinryu stirs.”

      Makes me think that they probably did the same thing with Kuja after all, and that he hadn’t originally been summoned by Chaos. This would explain why he discorporates into white smoke like Lightning and co. when he dies in Shade Impulse.

      I notice that they’ve also removed Garland’s reference to him as new. This was the original flow of that conversation:

      Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
      Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
      Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same. Not just me. We are all the
      same. Even that witch, Ultimecia… We all bear the same fate. You have only
      been…directed…because you are new.”

      Here’s the new one:
      Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
      Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
      Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same–warriors summoned to this land by the god of discord. And that is the truth for all of us. Even that witch, Ultimecia… Not one remembers everything. You were used when you had just awakened.”

      Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).

      Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.

      -“About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.”

      It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before? Right before he killed Cosmos, I mean.

      He wasn’t there, then the scenery deteriorated, Tidus looked around him, looked back at Cosmos, and suddenly Chaos was floating in front of her.

      -“On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.”

      That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?

      Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.

    • clide88
      clide88 8 April, 2011, 20:19

      – “Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.”

      Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that scene.

      – “Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).

      Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.”

      I’ll admit I haven’t played that far into the game yet (not on the 012 version, anyway), otherwise I may have caught that revision as well. I’ll also admit I find Golbez WAY cooler than Kuja, too, and I tend to focus more on the characters I like the most, quite naturally.

      Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.

      – “It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before?”

      Also a good point, but perhaps the developers differentiated between short-distance teleportation and long-distance teleportation. It is somewhat logical, after all, and Chaos teleporting back to his homeworld would also require him to teleport himself across dimensions, not just from one spot to another on the current planet he’s dwelling.

      It could also just be the developers didn’t think about it. I suppose you can’t expect them to cover EVERY detail (or maybe you should expect it…I don’t know), and like I said earlier, it’s just a presupposition off the top of my head.

      – “That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?

      Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.”

      Yeah, I have no idea about that, either.

      I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 19:20

      -“Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.”

      I very much appreciate your help. =) I’m glad you like the FAQ.

      -“I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.”

      I’ll be looking forward to it!

  6. Shady
    #6 Shady 8 April, 2011, 06:04

    Slight disagreement on the comment about Shantotto in the “Why was Cloud ever on Chaos’ side to begin with?” section.

    While Shantotto is indeed ruthless and seems to have erased Mercy from her dictionary, her heart’s in the right place. In XI, she’s fiercely loyal to the Federation of Windurst (her home nation) and was an active participant in saving the world on at least 3 accounts (providing valuable enemy information to the Allied Nations during the Crystal War, going undercover to assess the situation in Aht Urhgan, and showed up at the last moment to stop Domina and Bella Shantotto from Shantottofying everyone in Vana’diel).

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 8 April, 2011, 20:09

      I’ll concede that I sounded a bit too harsh on Shantotto there. That was meant to be a joke, but it didn’t come across as such, did it?

  7. DeltaRay
    #7 DeltaRay 8 April, 2011, 20:56

    BTW im really loving the analysis plot not just this game I read the other analysis plots from other FF games.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 17:29

      Thanks.

      Which others have you read?

  8. Sephiroth_Owa13
    #8 Sephiroth_Owa13 9 April, 2011, 00:57

    Hm, I have a question for you if you can answer it. It’s more of something that I’m curious about really.

    It’s clear that Jecht went from team Cosmos to teams Chaos, but were other villains who were once warriors of Cosmos as well? Say like Golbez, Kuja, or even Sephiroth?

    It’s pretty clear why I ask for Golbez and to a point Kuja. But the reason why I ask for Sephiroth is because as you said in your FAQ, Sephiroth doesn’t seem to have a lot of memories of his home world as Cloud does. Which seems very off to me and sort of reminds me of how Jecht was in the first Dissidia. When the Emperor told him that he was once a warrior of Cosmos he seemed very surprised by it. Then there’s the fact that Sephiroth summons the Masamune in a flash of light like the heroes do, versus just carrying it around like the villains. Also he vanishes in a flash of light sort of the same way Kuja does when he dies.

    So I’m really wondering if at some point Sephiroth was a warrior of Cosmos, something happened and he was defeated, and when he woke up he was a warrior of Chaos with almost no memories. Or is it just SE nodding their head at Sephiroth’s hero status before Nibelheim?

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 12:39

      I think that Seph manifesting his weapon as the heroes do is just referencing his hero status prior to the razing of Nibelheim.

      I don’t think he was ever on Cosmos’s team. Changing sides shouldn’t affect homeworld memories, as both Cloud and Jecht seem to retain the significant amounts of it they’d recovered.

      Also, unlike Kuja, they wouldn’t really need to feed him false memories or goad him into fighting, so tampering with whatever memories he had shouldn’t have been necessary.

    • Sephiroth_Owa13
      Sephiroth_Owa13 9 April, 2011, 18:49

      Okay, cool. Thanks for answering. It’s something I’ve wondered about because I’ve been trying to figure out at what point everyone came from their game. With some it’s pretty clear (like Kuja and Zidane I’m sure they’re post game), with others it’s a guess.

  9. DeltaRay
    #9 DeltaRay 9 April, 2011, 18:22

    Ah ok I definetely Agree then yea the pyreflies with the villains so that obviously isnt it then, wonder what truly is the reason behind for not being able to revive heroes killed by munchkins

    Reply to this comment
  10. Squall_of_SeeD
    #10 Squall_of_SeeD Author 9 April, 2011, 22:28

    Just wanted to keep everyone informed: all necessary updates have been applied at this point. =)

    Thanks again to everyone (here and elsewhere) who has commented and strived to improve the article!

    Reply to this comment
  11. jammi568
    #11 jammi568 10 April, 2011, 17:06

    Appreciated that you added my question to the FAQ. As one of my college (high school to Americans) teachers said – “If you have a question about something, chances are that someone else will also have it.”

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 10 April, 2011, 18:14

      You’re very welcome. =) And, yes, your teacher was right.

  12. clide88
    #12 clide88 13 April, 2011, 03:18

    As promised, I do in fact have a few more questions.

    How exactly are the characters in Dissidia able to perform some of the feats they do? I know your article mentions the concepts of Ex Mode and the supernatural abilities that accompany it, but what about abilities such as Free Air Dash? With the except of Advent Children, it’s not really known for the characters to be able to perform such a stunt like boosting themselves forward (or backward, in the case of Reverse Free Air Dash) in mid-air. On that note, where do they derive the power to perform magic in this game? Cloud’s arsenal of bravery attacks include numerous fire spells, yet Materia (presumably) doesn’t exist in the Dissidia world; Squall, likewise, can performs attacks such as Thunder Bullet and Fusillade, yet he doesn’t have GFs to junction magic attacks. If there is some other element that allows magic to be performed by all the characters in Dissidia, that might also provide a more satisfactory answer to why Terra and Kefka are able to use magic (though “a wizard did it” is certainly satisfying enough for me given all the other things that have occurred in the game).

    Any insight on that topic would be most interesting.

    On a completely different and much more minute topic, what causes Squall’s crystal at the end of Chapter 7 in Light to All (Destiny Odyssey VIII) to emit a light pointing toward Bartz? I’ve wondered how it was able to react like that since my first playthrough of Dissidia.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 17 April, 2011, 11:41

      Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.

      Stuff like Free Air Dash I won’t even attempt to address. =P I’ll be straight up with you on that. And I don’t think we’re really meant to. That sort of thing has got to be just gameplay-related.

      As for magic in general, thanks for bringing up those points. Tifa and Cloud do, indeed, use magic despite us having no reason to believe they have materia. Squall could be given a pass, perhaps, since one can still use para-magic in the world he comes from without junctioning GFs — though that still leaves points like Laguna never running out of ammunition.

      Yuna, meanwhile, even has her aeons back, despite the game making it clear that her pilgrimage and Tidus’s death is in the past tense for her.

      “A wizard did it” really is the best and only explanation. Some folk who are dead set on trying to bring the game down or don’t like to picture it as canon may not ever accept that, but you can’t reason with a fool who chooses to be a fool knowingly anyway.

      In answer to your last question about Chapter 7 of Light to All/Destiny Odyssey VIII … a wizard did it? =P

      No, I’m kidding. Your guess is as good as mine, really. Probably something to do with the crystals being born from a combination of the heroes’ resolve and Cosmos’s own power, so it pointed in the direction his heart was set.

    • clide88
      clide88 18 April, 2011, 01:41

      – “Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.”

      Full-time college student with a full-time job right here. You have my understanding.

      Another point of interest (for me, anyway) that I came across occurs in Chapter 10/Destiny Odyssey I. From the beginning of cycle 013 Warrior of Light seems to recognize Garland (or at least knows who he is), made evident during the scene between the two before WOL battles him the first time before ever leaving Order’s Sanctuary. WOL refers to Garland by name, yet he should have no memory of Garland since Team Cosmos lost the previous cycle and, as made abundantly clear, Dissidia chronologically predates FFI, so there’s no “homeworld memories” argument to obfuscate the matter.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 19 April, 2011, 21:09

      He knows him because the story of cycle 013 apparently begins a good while after that cycle had already begun. Remember, the opening to the original Dissidia is actually part of the story.

      And the Silent Presage scenes included in the releases of Dissidia outside Japan (and in the Universal Tuning rerelease in Japan) took place before that opening battle sequence.

      That clear things up?

    • clide88
      clide88 22 April, 2011, 00:48

      The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?

      I also would like to point something out regarding your well thought out Garland timeline (I could actually have a lengthy discussion on that topic, but I’ll keep it brief). You suggested Garland from World B was transported to World A after Dissidia, transported back in time by Chaos/himself, and then thrown back into the world of Dissidia, explaining why he remembers the time loop from FFI. However, in the opening scene for the Inherited Memories gateway in the 013 epilogue, we see this exchange between Golbez and Garland:

      Golbez: “What is it that you know? Who ARE you?”

      Garland: “Nothing so dire as you imagine. I was once made a prisoner of a time loop. The Great Will saved me from that fate. In return, I agreed to carry out a task.”

      While this doesn’t discredit your conjecture, it seems to provide a discrepancy. Again, you suggested Garland, after traveling to World A following Dissidia, is pulled into the time loop and sent by Chaos back into the Dissidia universe. Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop. This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?

      It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a “prisoner” of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.

      …Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief. Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.

  13. Theophanes
    #13 Theophanes 16 April, 2011, 13:30

    Excellent work!
    However trying to seperate heads from tails in a story that involves two cycles and time space rift is impossible 😛 I would very much like to hear your thoughts on these two points
    1) if they propose that dissidia is a prequel to FFI how come Garland says to Chaos ( in shade impulse) that when he was on the verge of death it was chaos who sent him 2000 years in the past? that happens in FFI after WOL defeats garland for kidnapping the princess :s that puts dissidia after FFI

    2)Also the text entry says that WOL heads to cornelia with a darkened crystal in hand. But the WOLs had shinning crystals that they used (along with defeating each fiend) to restore the light to the apropriate big crystals. It seems like WOL returning with a darkened crystal means he returns to a peaceful world of FFI -after its ending-

    Reply to this comment
  14. Squall_of_SeeD
    #14 Squall_of_SeeD Author 17 April, 2011, 11:48

    Thank you for your compliments. =)

    In address to your questions:

    1) I talk about this in the section about Garland in the FAQ. For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.

    He’s mortally wounded by them, left on the floor dying, and then Chaos pulls him through time — but also drops him off in World B, where he resides until meeting Cosmos, Cid and Chaos (Garland’s own past self).

    After Dissidia ends, he’ll go back to where he last was before entering World B: 2000 years in World A’s past. He’ll then gain more power, become Chaos once again, and reach across time to the future to save his past self, who is dying after being defeated by the Warriors of Light.

    At least that’s how it will go until he’s defeated by the Warriors of Light before being able to pull his past self across time. Who knows what becomes of things after that.

    2) That is a good observation. However, since the Warrior of Light was born on World B during the conflict of Dissidia, he’s never been to World A until the ending of cycle 013. He couldn’t have taken part in the events of the first FF yet.

    Someone made a mistake there, it sounds like.

    Reply to this comment
    • Theophanes
      Theophanes 17 April, 2011, 20:28

      -For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.-
      Thats the crazy part lol. he is defeated by WOL before dissidia while WOL doesnt get in that world until after dissidia!

      Damn SE and those loops! :p

  15. DeltaRay
    #15 DeltaRay 17 April, 2011, 19:10

    No wonder… Whenever I saw the ending for original Dissidia I would get a nostalgic feeling that the ending of Dissidia was the beginning of FF1, because the scene staring at cornelia castle “warriors will be holding crystals”,Also Im starting to think the crystal that WOL obtained in dissidia somehow “revives” or powers up the ones being guarded by the elemental fiends.

    Reply to this comment
  16. Squall_of_SeeD
    #16 Squall_of_SeeD Author 22 April, 2011, 18:58

    Response to clide88:

    “The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?”

    I imagine it was left out for disc space considerations. Even the Silent Presage cutscenes and the primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out, after all, and Cid of the Lufaine’s voice-over monologues about the heroes during each of their chapters are heavily abridged from what they were in the Destiny Odysseys of the first game. Each is cut by about half.

    You can also tell at a glance that the cutscenes from the original game were compressed at a lower quality in order to fit them all on the disc.

    In any case, as an example of how the FMV opening from the original game actually fits into the story, recall that the last shot of it is of the Warrior of Light laying face down on the ground in the vicinity of Order’s Sanctuary — exactly how we find him at the beginning of the Prologue segment of cycle 013, both in the original game and this one.

    The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.

    “Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop.”

    I don’t think it necessarily suggests that the Great Will pulled him from anywhere. Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.

    He speaks of hearing Chaos’s/his own voice explain the existence of the time loop to him as he was saved while on the verge of death at the hands of the Warriors of Light in Cornelia, and that he found himself on World B, thinking he had been taken 2000 years to the past of World A.

    I think Garland’s comment about the Great Will saving him is merely a mistake on Garland’s part. He thought this because he was confused as to why he was there in the conflict of Dissidia to begin with if he was supposed to have been taken to World A’s past.

    If the events of Dissidia are just part of the overall timeloop of the first FF, Garland probably didn’t know that at first. It seems like he figured it out once he realized that the cycle would be coming to an end, though. That’s probably why he tells Chaos the truth about their relationship toward the end of Shade Impulse/the Epilogue.

    Also, notice that in the same conversation with Golbez that you mentioned, Garland says “…There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. As long as he is me… .” That contradicts what Garland said earlier in their conversation about the Great Will saving him.

    So, yeah, I think Garland just thought that he’d been saved from the time loop, but realized he was still in it once he found out the Dissidia conflict was ending. After all, it was supposed to last forever — or at least until Chaos grew powerful enough to do what Cid wanted.

    “This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?”

    I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.

    “It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a ‘prisoner’ of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.”

    Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.

    “…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief.”

    No doubt. Have you seen the FAQ that Sir Bahamut, TheOnionKnight and I did on FFVIII?:

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/34215

    “Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.”

    Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis. I hope my response was illuminating in some way.

    Reply to this comment
    • clide88
      clide88 25 April, 2011, 20:23

      “Even the…primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out…”

      Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012. I imagine it was primarily due to space constraints, as well (given that it’s still mentioned in Sephiroth’s profile), but I still felt jipped, maybe just because VII’s my favorite title. But seriously, would a two-disc game have been all that bad? Type-0, after all, is rumored to span two UMDs.

      “The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.”

      I didn’t catch onto that. At least it all makes sense now.

      “Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.”

      Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated? We hear Garland in-game mention on two occasions that the Great Will pulled him into the Dissidia realm: the first is the aforementioned exchange between him and Golbez; the second is while speaking with Chaos (in the Epilogue/Shade Impulse). Garland states: “Before the Great Will led me to
      this realm, when I was on the edge of death, it was you who sent me two
      thousand years into the past.” He clearly acknowledges Chaos as transporting him through time while simultaneously denoting the Great Will as separately having brought him to the Dissidia realm (transporting him through space, if you will).

      In Report 12 there are certainly implications, but I never read where it was explicitly stated that Chaos transported him across dimensions (if I overlooked something, please correct me!). To me it seems to be a logical assumption that Chaos did so, but given the in-game conversations it seems to me that the Great Will is responsible.

      As far as whether Garland said the Great Will did because he was mistaken, I guess that’s subject to perspective (unless, again, if I have missed something that definitively proves otherwise). It seems, however, to be unlikely for the sake of storytelling. Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?

      “I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.”

      Even time has a genesis. It merely cannot be established without more information. In other words, given the lack of information we’re given in Dissidia/FFI about the time loops (as well as FFVIII), yes, I would concur.

      On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!

      “Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.”

      The manner in which Garland presented these revelations to Golbez implied (at least to me) a much more emotionally invested response that simply being told about doesn’t produce. Only experiencing the catastrophe personally would elicit such a deep and heavy lamentation. That being said, I certainly could have perceived that conversation incorrectly and Garland was in fact merely told about it without experiencing it. I don’t know, though; it really did seem like his words were too heavy to not have experienced the time loop for a cycle or. Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.

      “Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis.”

      I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 29 April, 2011, 13:39

      -“Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012.”

      It really should have been. That was one of the things that I believe a great many fans were looking forward to seeing depicted.

      -“Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated?”

      In Report 12 he speaks of Chaos/his future self transporting him several times:

      “I heard a voice speak to me as I laid
      dying–and that voice was my own.

      My words were the only clues I had of the
      realm in which I found myself–in which I
      assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years.”

      “In the present, I no longer have an interest
      in carrying my future self back to the past.”

      “As I imagined the hatred building inside me
      that would eventually and inevitably lead me to
      make a irreparable mistake, all I could do
      was cower in fear.”

      “I often think of the start of the cycle.

      I as Chaos summon me from the future;
      once summoned, I become Chaos.”

      He also speaks of encountering Cid/the Great Will after he’s been wandering for a while, so there’s no indication from his monologue that Cid had anything to do with him appearing there — even if Garland came to believe so himself for whatever reason. For that matter, Cid’s own monologuing from Chaos Report 4 in the first game doesn’t imply that he summoned Garland; only that he came across him in the same way that Garland came across Cid.

      -“Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?”

      Well, it does serve the purpose for the plot of explaining why Garland ever agreed in the first place to assist the Great Will in all these shenanigans.

      -“On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!”

      Thanks for your compliments. =) Glad you enjoyed.

      -“Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.”

      Me neither. I just can’t see any other way at the moment that the plot would work otherwise. Especially since Cid’s own monologue — and the circumstances under which Garland encounters him (prior even to Cid gaining his disembodied form from Shinryu) — don’t imply the GW to have had any hand in Garland’s appearance on World B.

      -“I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.”

      They have. Thank you again. =)

    • clide88
      clide88 30 April, 2011, 18:46

      Something else that occurred to me to refute my presupposition is that Cid didn’t have access to World A, given that his goal was to cross the door in the Rift to reach his world. So yeah, there’s not really a way he could’ve even accomplished transporting Garland from World A to World B. He couldn’t even get back to World A himself!

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 1 May, 2011, 01:46

      That’s a good point too. Hadn’t thought about that.

  17. B
    #17 B 24 April, 2011, 06:27

    Perhaps Chaos could summon warriors and couldn’t just teleport himself and Cid because it works one way and not the other? Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos. In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 24 April, 2011, 23:10

      -“Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos.”

      It would most likely be that those worlds have been shattered and fused into World B.

      -“In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.”

      It’s a good question, really, whether the World A version is part of the Katamari ball. It’s not entirely clear. My guess would be yes since the Chaos Shrine shows up as part of gateways and such.

    • B
      B 25 April, 2011, 22:57

      But shattered by what? A consequence of the fact that Chaos and Cosmos fight, rather than intentional reaching for the other worlds on their parts?

    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 29 April, 2011, 13:43

      It seems to have been a deliberate action on the gods’ part, probably at the same time as when they acquired their warriors. Here’s what Golbez had to say on the matter:

      “This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods.”

  18. B
    #18 B 24 April, 2011, 06:28

    I meant “is it established”, not “it is established”.

    Reply to this comment
  19. B
    #19 B 1 May, 2011, 00:22

    I read in other summaries that Chaos went crazy in 018 in the “Confessions of the Creator” alterniverse because he kept losing to Cosmos, not because he kept winning. For instance, here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_Chaos

    Reply to this comment
    • Squall_of_SeeD
      Squall_of_SeeD Author 4 May, 2011, 14:21

      That was a misunderstanding some of us had early on, but, no, Cid is very specific that Cosmos lost every time in the 000 story:

      “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification.”

  20. Black Jesus
    #20 Black Jesus 2 May, 2011, 23:44

    Has anyone ever considered that Cid, Chaos and Cosmos’ powered are limited to this world only and would not allow them to escape while still allowing them to pull others in from outside?

    Reply to this comment

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