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sy2pie 06/09/2013 04:11 PM

Cloud VS Zack in a fight.
I have been having a debate with a friend and we cannot agree on who would win in a fight between Cloud and Zack. I am aware that Cloud was never stronger than Zack while he was alive but did he ever surpass Zack in terms of skill and strength?


Kermitu Kleric Katie 06/09/2013 04:20 PM

Oh Cloud most definitely surpassed Zack. Zack lost to Seph one on one at the reactor, but Cloud beat his ass one on one in ACC. At their peaks, Cloud>Zack.

sy2pie 06/09/2013 04:23 PM

But wasnt Zack fighting the original Sephiroth? Cloud has fought Jenova/Sephiroth clone and Sephiroth Kadaj/Jenova. Arent they different?

LicoriceAllsorts 06/09/2013 04:30 PM

I was just replaying the reactor scene in Crisis Core, and I don't know how Sephiroth managed to beat me Zack: every one of my hits did more damage to him than the whole of Octoslash did to me Zack. He also has this attack where he left me Zack with 1 HP, the better to toy with me and torment me Zack, I suppose.

Of course, Zack never went toe to toe with Sephiroth after his four years in a mako tank. I believe (I might be wrong) that those four years are canonically the reason why Cloud is so strong, plus, of course, the S-cells he now has in his body. He came out of Hojo's tank a different calibre of fighter to the one who went in. Whether Zack would also be stronger, I don't know. If you want to take game mechanics as canon, my Zack more than doubled in HP, MP, attack power etc... between escaping from Nibelheim and finally dying outside Midgar. Maybe he would have been a match for Sephiroth by that point, who knows?

Alex Strife 06/09/2013 05:02 PM

Theoretically speaking, Zack's body was more resistant to the cells and Cloud received more influence from the cells. So Zack was either unchanged or "minimally" changed.

Danseru-kun 06/09/2013 05:12 PM

I think based on certain facts, it's Cloud. I think Zack could have gotten stronger if he lived, but Cloud definitely has greater potential that can be tapped in certain special circumstances.

But if they just train and train like normal and Nibelheim's massacre didn't happen, I think Cloud would never beat Zack.

Minato 06/09/2013 05:37 PM

Zack and Cloud spent four years in a mako tank, Sephiroth spent five years swimming through the Lifestream. After that he absorbed the knowledge of the Ancients by the time AC came around he basically sized control of Lifestream completely.

Cloud definitely beat a stronger Sephiroth then the one Zack couldn't handle at all as far as Ultimania is concerned.

Kermitu Kleric Katie 06/09/2013 08:17 PM


Originally Posted by sy2pie (Post 519597)
But wasnt Zack fighting the original Sephiroth? Cloud has fought Jenova/Sephiroth clone and Sephiroth Kadaj/Jenova. Arent they different?

Umm, the Sephiroth you fought at the end of the game was the real Seph, as was ACC Seph. And even if the Jenova fights weren't directly fights with Seph, Jenova was being controlled by Sephiroth. And Cloud has fought 'original Seph' before, back at the Nibelheim reactor, when he managed to beat Sephiroth's ass for the first of many times, though in Sephiroth's defense, Zack had probably weakened him a bit, 'cause Cloud was definitely NOT stronger than Zack at that point. And besides, according to Word of God, ACC Sephiroth is the most powerful form of Sephiroth we've seen yet.

Unlucky 06/10/2013 02:40 AM

By all means Zack was one of the strongest people in the planet, but then again his 'opponents' at that time were two deteriorating First Class soldiers, one of whom wanted to commit 'Zackicide' :desu: This is excluding a physically well Sephiroth, whom he lost to.

At their peak I think Cloud will win. I think though that one advantage Zack has over Cloud is his unwavering morale.

Abortedj 06/10/2013 05:13 AM

Zack. He is more of a solo fighter.

Cat Rage Room 06/10/2013 12:20 PM

Zack is a naturally gifted Ace who is one of those people who is good at everything he does. He's one of the most accomplished warriors in the FFVII mythos and not to be fucked with, regardless of his SOLDIER treatment; after all, natural talent and ethic does factor in the end, given that SOLDIERS have different ranks according to strength and skill.

Cloud however, is just that dude, despite being, by most definitions, a loser (although one of my favorite characters, so that isn't negative bias. But I mean yes, he is a dorky loser), is a freakishly talented and superhumanly strong individual that constantly defies expectations quite casually, even before his SOLDIER treatment.

I think Cloud is stronger than Zack, but that doesn't mean Zack is weak, either. Cloud is just on another level.

eleamaya 06/10/2013 12:54 PM

I can't say anything about game mechanism as I never play the game but from storywise I have headcanon that Zack doesn't have enough reason to beat Sephiroth at that time to make him more powerful (ugh, maybe he still tried to return his friend to sane?) whereas Cloud have so many motivations and anger to make him stronger than he actually is (plus you know Cloud is stronger as SOLDIER after those mako tube treatments).

LicoriceAllsorts 06/10/2013 02:56 PM

But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own, except in the final head to head which I always thought was meant to be taking place in his head (I could well be wrong there, though); he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater, and in ACC, since Kadaj was the only remnant to morph into Sephiroth, we could argue that Sephiroth was fighting at 1/3 of his strength.

The Pyro 06/10/2013 03:39 PM

^And yet he's still supposed to be stronger by far than he was when he beat up Zack :monster:

Flintlock 06/10/2013 04:25 PM


Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 519725)
But Cloud never fights Sephiroth on his own ... he needed backup to defeat Sephiroth in the Crater

I'm not sure how player-controlled battles fit in with the canon, but it's not at all impossible to beat Jenova Synthesis and all three of Sephiroth's forms in the Crater with Cloud alone. I've done it.

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