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Cthulhu 09/21/2016 05:42 PM

Forum software upgrade (for real now)
All right, we've talked about this before, but, shit's got to happen now.

We're running forum software whose base version is almost ten years old now. It's sorta been patched a few times to fix critical security and compatibility errors, but besides that, not much has happened. At this time, there's a critical security error that allows malicious peoples to upload a file which allows them to do nasty shit, and since vB has a shitty license structure that requires you to pay an annual fee or be shit outta luck, it's only a matter of time before we're definitely fucked. We've already had a breach where (probably) our whole database was extracted, and I don't think it'll get any better.

So we need to change. There's a number of options, too many if you'd ask me, and I honestly don't know what our criteria should be - like, what features do we really use, what can we do without, and probably most importantly, what would be a dealbreaker and cause people to move away from TLS.

We've had a previous thread about this, the shortlist was then basically vB 5 (shot down due to performance, but same problem with the license structure; our current license allows us to download an older version which I'm sure has some security issues already), Xenforo (idk, I've played with it the other day and it's got very weird UI things going on), Discourse (the new and hip kid on the block, but vastly different in UI to the current TLS which might scare people away), and I guess the ye olde ones like phpBB (which seems to still be actively maintained), SMF which TLS started out with but which doesn't seem very active anymoar, err. Probably a billion more. I'm seeing Vanilla Forums be mentioned a few times too.

Long story short, we need to do something or TLS will suddenly be a dodgy porn site. Maybe it already is.

What do?

Shademp 09/21/2016 05:49 PM

My primary concern is this:
What will happen to all our posts when we make a forum software upgrade? If entire forum sections will be wiped, then I will hopefully know of it beforehand so I can back-up save all the research I only have here on TLS.

Tertiary concern:
Will there or will there not be a Thanks system? A lack of a Thanks system won't be a dealbreaker, but I will certainly find TLS to be a more boring place without it.

Octo 09/21/2016 06:07 PM

Personally as long as we can has :monster: and the smileys don't suck I'll be happy.

I mean really I'll probably complain regardless of what you guys go with, my only experience is vbulletin and whatever the fuck gamefaqs used.

Cthulhu 09/21/2016 06:11 PM

Nah fuck no, most forum softwares offer migration scripts. Most forum software also offer "thanks" (or similar) features, either built-in or as an addon. Discourse has it built-in, as well as spoiler tags and probably a bunch of other features.

I honestly feel the most drawn towards Discourse myself, it's built like modern software ought to, instead of the generic php/mysql copies that all try and fail to be different. I was a bit worried that the home page lists recent topics, but for me that's how I browse TLS anyway, and there's a categories page which we might be able to set as the default page.

edit: also it's got lots of plugins. Signatures is not a default feature, for example. Bigger avatars / postbits is something I'm sure we can hack together ourselves if need be. Login is easier / safer too, it uses 3rd party services like google etc to provide authentication, so we should have less issues with spambots.

Kionae 09/21/2016 06:17 PM

I agree that Discourse would take some getting used to... but from what I've seen of it, a big plus is that it's very mobile friendly. You might also give Flarum a look. It's similar to Discourse, but seems even more mobile friendly. I think Discourse is farther along in development, though.

Also... just throwing this out there but... BBPress is also a thing.

Flintlock 09/21/2016 06:58 PM

I see a familiar face...

The thing that makes our forum special is not any particular software features, IMO, but the people and the posts they make. As long as we're able to migrate successfully and keep Cookie Monster, I don't really mind what we use.

From a technical standpoint, however, I think we should aim for open source software. If we pay for a Xenforo license (or similar), we may find ourselves in this exact position again somewhere down the line, having to pay for a license renewal for an upgrade that we don't want just to get X feature or security patch. Open source software is totally free, and even if a project dies, community support for it is likely to continue until someone comes up with a better alternative. Of the options mentioned so far, Discourse, phpBB, Simple Machines (SMF), Flarum and BBPress are open source. I thought FluxBB might be another option but I just noticed they're merging into Flarum, so there'd be no point going with them.

I quite like the look of Flarum but it's still in beta, so if we want something soon (which we should, considering VB's latest security issues), Discourse looks a better bet. It already has a large install base. Skinning it will probably be a case of custom CSS rather than using an admin panel, by the look of it, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I also like that it supports single sign-on (SSO), which means we could have a shared login process for the front page and forum (the same goes for BBPress, which I also like). But it is very different from what we've got, so it would take some getting used to. I wouldn't be against something more familiar - the Kupocon forum uses SMF and still manages to feel modern while keeping the traditional forums/sub-forums/threads/posts structure.

There are lots of good options but maybe no great options here. We're just going to have to make a decision.

Obsidian Fire 09/21/2016 07:51 PM

As long as we can re-skin stuff and keep similar Forum/Sub-Forum structure, I think we'll be okay. I too make the most use out of the "latest posts" area of the page and wouldn't mind seeing it be moved further up the page.

Discourse currently looks like it has most features we need and it's got a ton of active support. I'm curious as to what it would look like in TLS colors...

Lex 09/21/2016 08:24 PM

I should throw my opinion in here.

I just want the feel of TLS to be maintained as much as possible, so the best option in my eyes is one that allows us to do that. I don't know which one that is because I don't have the time to research them right now. The only thing that's certain is that the forum upgrade has become a critical issue that we need to address as quickly as possible.

Whatever we choose, I'll work hard to help out in the backend in whatever capacity I can. If anyone would like to volunteer to spearhead implementation and skinning, we'd all welcome that.

Cthulhu 09/21/2016 08:30 PM

What I could do is install a number of those forum softwares and spend some time on giving it the basic TLS feel - font, colors, cookie monster - and then see again. I think a lot of the opinions on forum softwares isn't really about how it's made or what it does, but about familiar navigation (I think for TLS it'd be one part using the New Posts feature, the other being slow and clicking on forum categories and such - but, do tell how you use and would like to use TLS).

Claymore 09/21/2016 08:40 PM

Out of the suggested options (I can't remember where the old discussion on this was, but I think Xeno was the leading software that was being debated there) I quite like Discourse, especially if that can be tweaked / skinned to look more familiar. Plus it has a lot of features and plugins.

Lex 09/21/2016 08:44 PM

This is literally how I use TLS:

*clicks new posts*
*checks various threads*
*closes tls when done*

I mean, in the main that's it. More complicated stuff would be using the search feature (ours kinda sucks anyway), going on to my profile to find specific posts or threads I've made (can't think of any forum software that doesn't have this) and looking at my friends list to find specific people if I want to check their posts (I do this rarely). The last one is a feature we could possibly lose, but I'm sure there's some kind of alternative to that available.

I'd quite like the ability to subscribe to threads and maybe get a notification when they've been posted in. Or there's a feature in SMF that's like "unread posts" but it's "show new replies to your posts" and it lists threads where you've posted and people have posted after.

Obviously a biggie, fairly TLS specific thing is thanks. But I'd be happy with a simpler system (maybe a "like" with a number tally rather than a list of people's names) that a lot of modern forum software seems to have. More importantly maybe is the level of personal customisation we allow here, which most forums do not. In fact we're the only one I know of that does allow that level of customisation. So that's something we're going to have to keep in mind moving forward.

Cthulhu 09/21/2016 08:51 PM

Discourse has a 'like' feature by default, including a list of who liked shit; should be easy to rename it to 'thanks' or keep it as-is, and change the icon to a cookie monster :monster: (example: has one)

X-SOLDIER 09/21/2016 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by Cthulhu (Post 717935)
What I could do is install a number of those forum softwares and spend some time on giving it the basic TLS feel - font, colors, cookie monster - and then see again. I think a lot of the opinions on forum softwares isn't really about how it's made or what it does, but about familiar navigation (I think for TLS it'd be one part using the New Posts feature, the other being slow and clicking on forum categories and such - but, do tell how you use and would like to use TLS).

I think if you can do that and then once we've all spent some time poking at them, we can toss up a poll of sorts associated with it. I think it'd probably be the best way of gauging opinion, and this thread we can narrow the list down to the few we really have the most strong interest in.

(Also, now that I've been thinking about it, I like the navigation structure here a lot - because I tend to lurk in particular areas of the forum in my free time as a way of scanning for particular topics & updates rather than using new posts like Lex does).

X :neo:

Flintlock 09/21/2016 10:19 PM


Originally Posted by Cthulhu (Post 717935)
do tell how you use and would like to use TLS).

I use the cyberstats plugin (nowadays my bookmark is set to here so I can see the shoutbox and the newest posts at the same time). I only click "new posts" when I'm on my phone, and even then it's stupidly fiddly. So I could definitely live with a category system instead of distinct forums and sub-forums; I only use the latter when I'm looking for a specific post and think I can find it faster that way than by searching.

ForceStealer 09/21/2016 11:14 PM


Originally Posted by Flintlock (Post 717925)
which means we could have a shared login process for the front page and forum

That would be very cool, methinks. I think it would encourage more comments on the articles. Not that that's the most important thing in the world, but still.


Originally Posted by The Engineer (Post 717927)
As long as we can re-skin stuff and keep similar Forum/Sub-Forum structure, I think we'll be okay. I too make the most use out of the "latest posts" area of the page and wouldn't mind seeing it be moved further up the page.

You may well just prefer latest posts, but are you aware of the New Posts button at the top of the page? Again don't mean to be patronizing, I just remember a thread recently where someone said they never noticed that it existed.

Of course, you apparently wouldn't be able to take advantage of it for very long :monster:

Anyway, I do feel very comfortable with TLS' looks, so I hope a new one could maintain our color scheme and look, even if we were to lose the forum tree. Otherwise I agree with what others have said, if we can keep :monster: and the good smileys I'm down.

Ghost X 09/22/2016 02:21 AM

Using TLS, same as Lex pretty much.

The go to for me is the "New posts" function, and if threads haven't been contributed to to appear there, but I want to add to them anyway, I'll search through the relevant sections for them, and if I can't find the thread I'll use the search function. If I'm making a new thread, I'll also use the search function in case the topic already exists.

The shoutbox is a nice addition, but not essential. I can always harass people on skype. Look and feel of the forum is important, as it is strangely crucial to our individual and collective identity (d'awww? :P). For me that is just the colours, section>thread>post structure, and cookie monster emoji primarily, and maybe some others I regularly use (:awesome: :P...:closedmonster:). I don't use PM or visitor messages much :alone:, but I can imagine that's very important for others. Display pics / avatars would probably be crucial too.

Dashell 09/22/2016 04:03 AM

When I used SMF I rather liked it, but I've also seen people have much success with MyBB. If not, I know Invision has also gotten really good these past few years.

So uh... that :monster:

Cthulhu 09/22/2016 05:34 PM

For my own 2 cents, I use New Posts, then click on a bookmarklet that executes this script:


javascript:var newPoastImages = document.querySelectorAll('img[title=\'Go to first new post\']'); for (var i = newPoastImages.length - 1; i > 0; i--) {[i].parentElement.href, '_blank'); }
which opens every thrad in a new tab :monster:. It doesn't work well though, my browser loads the pages very slowly and then just freezes so I have to force-quit my browser. They work when I restore the tabs though. Lawls :monster:

X-SOLDIER 09/22/2016 11:06 PM

*now feels like he should probably use the New Posts feature more often*

X :neo:

Channy 09/23/2016 01:59 AM

Where are you going if you're not using the New Posts link?

X-SOLDIER 09/23/2016 03:40 AM

I just browse through the sections where I typically spend time posting & reply to the threads that are bold, and look through older ones when those topics catch my attention. I literally don't ever use the New Posts link. (Which will make it apparent why my activity is sporadic in certain sections & such where I don't often spend a great deal of time).


Disclaimer: This is also because a big chunk of my time on TLS is just checked during downtime at work or between doing other things, so it also kinda keeps me from getting absorbed responding to ALL THE THINGS.

X :neo:

Airling 09/23/2016 08:15 AM

I also do the new posts thing, either with the bar at the bottom, or with the link at the top if there are a lot of new posts.

If I could choose anything, I'd choose we don't change. But that really isn't an option anymore. Curse you internet criminals.>_>

All the choices presented so far look so nice, it's very hard to pick just one. My only personal preference would be that we get to take everything we have here where ever we end up. For instance: We've talked about how a like system would be really great to have, but will the thanks we've already put in here migrate to there, or is that a part of TLS history that will be lost forever? I don't think smilies are too much of a worry since any forum needs smilies:awesomonster:, but will our post formatting break so that spoiler tags and images in archived posts become b0rk?

I like Yop's idea of us actually trying them out. I have some experience with Xenforo, and it's... alright enough I guess. It feels stiff somehow. I can't really place it.

Cthulhu 09/23/2016 05:34 PM

We'll probably have to code something ourselves if we want to transfer thanks over. But, it should be straightforward enough, a thank is basically an entry in a table containing user ID, post ID and a timestamp.

AvecAloes 09/23/2016 06:28 PM

/glad that someone here speaks kompooter

Cthulhu 09/23/2016 06:59 PM

I know so much about computers and software and shit, I could talk about it for days :monster:. And not only that, but also the human aspect of it. Since the human:developer ratio is rather skewed most of the time, even in a software development office. (lots of people involved with management, testing, management, SEO, content, management, marketing, management, etc)

Fangu 09/23/2016 07:10 PM

Easy there tiger :monster:

Claymore 09/23/2016 07:23 PM

Is past likes really something that needs to be imported over? I mean, if it's easy enough to do, then sure, but no point busting any balls over that.

Octo 09/23/2016 07:48 PM

I think Yop should just maek his own forum software :monster:

We could call it Yop and the slogan would be 'once you Yop you can't stop'

Flintlock 09/23/2016 08:19 PM

Don't give him ideas...

Actually he might have mentioned doing that already at some point. Not sure if serious. :monster:

ForceStealer 09/23/2016 08:42 PM


Originally Posted by Cthulhu
cba :monster:

Cthulhu 09/23/2016 10:13 PM

^ :monster:

I've Pondered it over 9000 times over time, but there's a few problems; one, cba, and two, there's over 9000 other parties doing it - how would my attempts be Better?

Actually I did start working on something a while ago, more of a trial project than anything. I've also made err, two or three shoutbox variants for FFOF waaaaay back when (and when it comes down to it, a forum is little more than a shoutbox with threads, I could whip up something simple in an afternoon probably), and even a start of a social network thing of sorts (in Ruby on Rails, but I shot that down after the first deployment fail). IIRC I also spent a lot of time on something using Zend Framework, but I forgot exactly what that was.

TL;DR yes I could make some pretty decent forum software, but only the code part of it, I'm not very good at UX or styling so idk. And either way, it'd take a lot of time, there's a lot of competition, etc.

X-SOLDIER 09/28/2016 10:18 PM

I believe I remember looking at trial thing that back in ye olden days. :awesomonster:

So, do we have anything else what needs discussing before getting to quick mockups or whatevs?

X :neo:

Cthulhu 09/29/2016 05:28 PM

I think most shit will need to be decided as we discover the actual workings of the new software.

Lex 09/30/2016 11:31 PM

I know this is a fairly urgent thing, but at the same time we can't rush. We need to get some tests up and start fucking around because if it looks like nobody's going to get used to it or whatever then activity will pretty much plummet. I'm hoping we can use this as an opportunity to revitalise the board too.

Cthulhu 10/01/2016 07:48 AM

Yes aaaand yes. One (soft) requirement I have is things like notifications whenever you're mentioned (or keywords if you're into that), as well as a proper mobile version or app. Discourse seems to have all of those; again, it's built with modern software development practices in mind, so, Ruby on Rails back-end, Ember.js front-end, PostgreSQL database, Redis in-memory storage wossname, runs on Docker, fully open source, and probably a good (remotely callable) API for shit like mobile apps or, in our case, the front page. But I'll have to look into that one.

I've tried installing it locally which seemed to work, but I couldn't access it. I think I'll try and get us a cheap / temp server to run it on, so I can fuck up - installing and running it is nontrivial. That might actually be the downside, it's very different in terms of technology than most forum softwares. But I guess in the end it puts its stuff into a database, so that should be convertable to any other software if need be. Let's just assume I won't die :monster:

I've got stuff to do in a bit (house watching), but I'll try and get it installed somewhere this weekend.

Cthulhu 10/02/2016 01:42 PM

Aight, knowledge / shit dump while installing Discourse:
  • I've gotten a cheap ($10 / month) image at Digital Ocean, very easy to set up actually. It inspires me to maybe split up the site server-wise, one for the forums, another for the front page. But idk. Another thing we can eventually do is split up the various components that make up Discourse, e.g. have the database run on one (or multiple) servers, the web component on another, etc. But for now, single server will do.
  • Installing Discourse for the first time takes forever. It pulls a number of Docker images for the application itself, database, Redis (in-memory storage), and it seems to do a full build of the Discourse webapp too, minifying javascripts and the like.
  • no shit
  • (no I don't actually try and understand any of the above)
  • Looks like the software has multi-language support. vB has too, but I think you have to install community-created language packs separately.
  • grr, it should be running, but it's not accessible from the outside. When I start a simple webserver on some other port, that one works fine. stoopit. Not sure what's up.
  • urgh, changing config and doing a rebuild takes forever. Configuration changes shouldn't take a full rebuild.
  • blargh, opened up a support question thing. It might be something stupid. I followed the instructions on to the letter though.
  • Nothing yet, but I am seeing errors related to SSL encryption. Discourse's setup comes with built-in / automagic SSL using Let's Encrypt, all I need to fill in is an e-mail address. The .cer files are empty though. I think it might have to do with the fact that while I installed it with a domain name (, I haven't actually registered that domain with our domain name provider yet.
  • okay this DNS thing is taking forever, I think I'll leave it for today.

^ above took place between err, 11 AM ish and 4 PM ish. Most of it spent waiting for the DNS thing :monster:. A test install of Discourse should eventually appear on

Cthulhu 10/03/2016 06:10 PM

  • I am an idiot
  • So the thing not working at all is probably beacause I set it up with HTTPS enabled; it seems nginx won't start up if there's an error there. Probably the safest option.
  • I wasn't able to get the subdomain up and running, beacause I forgot our nameservers are no longer at transip, but at cloudflare. We don't really use their CDN services anymore because they fuck up IP blocking and shit, but still.
  • Changing shit at transip isn't communicated to cloudflare. TIL
  • I disabled HTTPS and yey it worked. Sort of. Images were borken beacause they all pointed to the domain.
  • I've properly registered the domain, am now in the process of rebuilding the app (again, sigh) and checking if shit works. If so, I'll poast this and people can start fucking about. Myself included, I don't know anything about Discourse yet.
  • Before asking me questions, make sure to try and figure stuff out first; there's a guide in the admin / staff section, and probably loads of info to be found online. I'm about as blind about this application as you are.
  • Once I / we've fucked about with this some more, we'll need to come up with a Plan. At the very least I want to have a backup strategy set up. I know that Discourse writes its postgres database to a location accessible ourselves, but we'll have to figure out how to make a proper backup. Discourse itself also offers a backup functionality, so we should be able to use that. I'll have to dive into how to restore a backup though; I'm afraid the whole thing is so complicated that it's more of a matter of trying and praying than like with vB, just restore the database, edit some files and done.
  • Keeping this thing updated should be easy enough, just do a `git pull` and `./launcher rebuild app` and the thing takes care of its own. Downtime of about 10 minutes though, at least on the cheap / virtual server we're using right now.
  • Will have to keep an eye on performance. It feels kinda sluggish compared to the current forum software. Compare with for what is probably an optimized version.
  • The way I set it up, it should be using an ipv6 IP address, if your browser and network supports it. Probably doesn't matter much.
  • It should also have HTTP2 support out of the box. I should look into enabling that for our front page, too. It's especially good for a lot of relatively small requests per page. Discourse seems to be using a lot of small images, if you look at the meta page for example.

Anyway, go forth and fuck about; I'll make people staff if I happen to see them on there: It may go offline a few times while I fuck about with it.

Now, cool shit while fucking around with it:
  • Very detailed settings for stuff like err, idk. post length (min and max), frequency, clever means of detecting spambots, trust levels, etc.
  • Thanks / Like system. We'll have to off course customize this a bit.
  • Badge system. Again, we'll have to customize this. We'll probably end up adding custom badges for TLS Awards winners.
  • Notifications. Number appears in the title if there's activity on the main site, and open topics.
  • e-mail digest. I guess vB has that too, idk.
  • We'll need to get our own spoiler tag again. The default one ( kinda just blurs out stuff, which isn't ideal for n00dz or oversized stuff. I should be able to create a plugin that works like ours.
  • Oh we don't need to, there's a "details" tag.
  • Installing a plugin is a matter of adding the github url of the plugin to the end of the app.yml file and doing a rebuild.
  • I... don't really like how stuff looks and feels. Might be a matter of getting used to it, IDK. Huge fugly yellow 'hint' boxes and shit. Reply box stuck to the bottom of the page.
  • ooo:

anyway yes.

Flintlock 10/03/2016 06:29 PM

ooo indeed.

Kionae 10/03/2016 06:42 PM

I don't... hate it. But yeah, gonna take some getting used to. I'm assuming this is the vanilla, out of the box, blah-blah-blah-you-need-to-customize-shit-you-lazy-bastard look.

Lex 10/03/2016 06:51 PM

Yeah for sure going to take some getting used to, but I like how smooth it is. Is there a dark theme we could try out? I'm instantly put off by how bright it is, XD.

Lex 10/03/2016 07:08 PM

OK it's fully customisable, I just fucked about with colours. This definitely has potential.

Shademp 10/03/2016 07:08 PM

Progress fuck yeah :headbang:

Keep it up!

Cthulhu 10/03/2016 07:26 PM

We should probably see to properly developing and maintaining a theme, like, in a separate github account and shit for reasons. Although that's a bit complicated for not-developers to use, so, idk.

Fangu 10/03/2016 07:46 PM

I'm lovin' it.

Lex 10/03/2016 07:52 PM

Yep, the more time I spend with it the more I'm sold on it.

Tetsujin 10/03/2016 07:55 PM

I like how quick and snappy everything is. Threads automatically update and shit. 'tis neat.

Lex 10/03/2016 08:02 PM

Yeah you can even enable desktop notifications when there's a new reply or you're mentioned 0_0

It's all incredibly customisable.

Lex 10/03/2016 08:10 PM

I'll need to find a way to give certain permissions to certain users i.e. might want to let people (say Flint, Pixel) have access to the CSS customisation options. I'm looking for a way to do that without having to go full admin but coming up short.

Octo 10/03/2016 08:28 PM

never go full admin

Claymore 10/03/2016 08:33 PM

Yeah ... it is very nice.

Lex 10/03/2016 08:34 PM

All we have to do is replace that loveheart with a small cookie monster and it'll feel like home.

that and sigs

it's entirely possible this software is incapable of sigs

Tetsujin 10/03/2016 08:39 PM

I have sigs disabled anyway :monster:

Although I'm missing that postbit thing

Lex 10/03/2016 08:39 PM

OK I think I'm done fiddling for today or I'll be up all night. It's seriously interesting though, we can make this the new TLS for sure.

Things we need to do:

- Skin Moar (avatar shape and size, cookie monster like instead of loveheart, layout)
- Figure out user customisation (particularly user permissions)
- Post migration
- various other things

People need to log on and poke around and shit.

Cthulhu 10/03/2016 08:53 PM is a discussion on signatures :monster:. I'm sure we can make them work, as well as a postbit for example (if we want to stick to that, instead of what discourse offers by default, clicking on a user's feisu to show more info)

Flintlock 10/03/2016 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by Lex - paraphrased (Post 719444)
I'll need to find a way to give certain permissions to certain users i.e. might want to let people (say Flint) have access to the CSS customisation options


Also: Signatures are a pointless waste of space IMO. :monster:

Also also: If we really want to make it a Cookie Monster, may I suggest this as a replacement for the heart?

Cthulhu 10/03/2016 08:54 PM

Also glad you guys dig it :monster:. I do think we'll end up investing a lot of time to tweak shit, but still.

Lex 10/03/2016 09:10 PM

Well we'll have to to make it TLS-like :monster:

We don't need a postbit with join-date and shit like that IMO, but some people may want some more info. I know that visually it's a nice way to tell who's posting rather than a small avatar icon. This is a good opportunity for us to cut down on the clutter.

I'm not in favour of removing sigs completely, but I'm definitely on board with limiting what can be in there and the size. Mine here is fairly obscene, for example. But size-wise it's built specifically so that my avatar and sig go well together vertical-height-wise even when I post relatively little.

Tetsujin 10/03/2016 09:15 PM

I just got this:


You've reached the maximum number of replies a new user can create on their first day. Please wait 22 hours before trying again.

Lex 10/03/2016 09:15 PM

I'll remove that limitation immediately, can't be having that

EDIT: Done. It's a "trust level" feature thing that we can customise.

Octo 10/03/2016 09:50 PM


What if, we used that as some sort of penalty? Like one rung up from a suspension?

I dunno, I feel like it would really fuck off a troll if they could only make 1 poast a day/week.


I'm into punishment not rehabilitation :monster:

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