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Channy 05/13/2018 11:20 PM

There have been many arguments supporting the Scientist's lackadaisical approach to medicine; yes he may be the sole doctor on a small island, but how did he treat his most fragile patient? By surrendering his care over to someone else. He didn't know Tifa or that she was a friend to Cloud - any doctor worth their salt would stand by their patient, ensuring the best, most responsible care for them.

This was no minor wound either, Cloud was left practically infantilized from lifestream poisoning. He should have been dedicated to Cloud, not relinquishing care over to someone with big boobs. For all he knew, she may have been there to finish the job. And then what?! Cloud's actual relatives or friends could have sued the doctor for malpractice/neglect, costing him his license. And then what is he? No longer a doctor or scientist, that's for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ergo (Post 783552)
So on one hand we have a medical professional who is the sole doctor on an entire island. Then on the other hand we have an old age historian with a love of all things hemp.

Ok let's talk mental prowess, a doctor has to train for several years before they become qualified. This requires dedication and intellect. On the contrast however we have elder hargo who holds no notable degree but has a keen passion for the past and maybe a slight fetish for hemp.

Elder hargo may in fact be more.knowledgeable regarding the terrain in the city of the ancients but it's far more like being thrown into that situation would be more of a hindrance to him as he would be far too busy paying attention to every little detail around him to pick on the true danger creeping up on him from the shadows.

Ergo, who's side are you on? Because you're making a very commendable case for my candidate Elder Hargo, here.

Elder Hargo may not have the mandatory years spent in a scholarly institute to warrant the name of "scientist" but I think he is every meaning of the word. You have stated yourself several times he has the love, the passion, the fortitude to notice the minor intricacies of his surroundings (especially one he may be enamoured with)... that is the very definition of a dedicated intellectual. They may be considered hippie elders, but the elders of Cosmo Canyon are it's scientists, it's doctors, it's self-trained professionals who love, admire, and cherish the planet, and most of all, it's history. If anything, being in the City of the Ancients would put Elder Hargo at a serious advantage, as he would devote every last breath to defending this historical place.

Aptitude and tutelage will only get you so far, but it is the love and passion for what you do that drives you. It is Hargo's passion that would drive him to pick up a sword and defend himself and the City of the Ancients from this nefarious "scientist", who may know how to pick up a sword, but would he?

f a n c y 05/14/2018 12:04 AM


Oi, I reckon that this is our most intense match so far. The arguments on both sides are so strong! I donít know where I stand! Kudos to our team players for making this match so interesting. :megusta:

Friendly reminder to players that as of the 13th May, 23:04 GMT, you have less than 24 hours to sway Spectators.

Here's a link to a time zone converter in case anyone needs it.

Keep kickiní that ass!


Ergo 05/14/2018 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Channy (Post 783572)
There have been many arguments supporting the Scientist's lackadaisical approach to medicine; yes he may be the sole doctor on a small island, but how did he treat his most fragile patient? By surrendering his care over to someone else. He didn't know Tifa or that she was a friend to Cloud - any doctor worth their salt would stand by their patient, ensuring the best, most responsible care for them.

This was no minor wound either, Cloud was left practically infantilized from lifestream poisoning. He should have been dedicated to Cloud, not relinquishing care over to someone with big boobs. For all he knew, she may have been there to finish the job. And then what?! Cloud's actual relatives or friends could have sued the doctor for malpractice/neglect, costing him his license. And then what is he? No longer a doctor or scientist, that's for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ergo (Post 783552)
So on one hand we have a medical professional who is the sole doctor on an entire island. Then on the other hand we have an old age historian with a love of all things hemp.

Ok let's talk mental prowess, a doctor has to train for several years before they become qualified. This requires dedication and intellect. On the contrast however we have elder hargo who holds no notable degree but has a keen passion for the past and maybe a slight fetish for hemp.

Elder hargo may in fact be more.knowledgeable regarding the terrain in the city of the ancients but it's far more like being thrown into that situation would be more of a hindrance to him as he would be far too busy paying attention to every little detail around him to pick on the true danger creeping up on him from the shadows.

Ergo, who's side are you on? Because you're making a very commendable case for my candidate Elder Hargo, here.

Elder Hargo may not have the mandatory years spent in a scholarly institute to warrant the name of "scientist" but I think he is every meaning of the word. You have stated yourself several times he has the love, the passion, the fortitude to notice the minor intricacies of his surroundings (especially one he may be enamoured with)... that is the very definition of a dedicated intellectual. They may be considered hippie elders, but the elders of Cosmo Canyon are it's scientists, it's doctors, it's self-trained professionals who love, admire, and cherish the planet, and most of all, it's history. If anything, being in the City of the Ancients would put Elder Hargo at a serious advantage, as he would devote every last breath to defending this historical place.

Aptitude and tutelage will only get you so far, but it is the love and passion for what you do that drives you. It is Hargo's passion that would drive him to pick up a sword and defend himself and the City of the Ancients from this nefarious "scientist", who may know how to pick up a sword, but would he?


Elder hargo is in essence the equivalent of a stamp collector. He is an elder purely by age, probably because he avoided conflict and was happy enough to let nanakis parents fight for him.

His passion for the past isn't in question in this debate but his ability to actual win is.

You may be indeed correct that the elders are the pillars of.cosmo canyon but let's face it there isn't a single reference to any of them having any sort of skillset that would be helpful in battle.

At least the doctor if by some.miracle was hurt by the hemp wielding elder, would then have the knowledge to heal himself before getting his revenge.

A nice bottle of chloroform (an anaesthetic) thrown in the elders direction is enough to secure victory. Unless in all his old years the elder has learnt a martial arts derived from papercuts from.books on the cetra then I doubt he is any sort of match.

Channy 05/14/2018 01:03 AM

They do not throw the name Elder around lightly in Cosmo Canyon. A title is to be earned, to be respected even. No less so than someone who read from a book and passed a test to earn a title of Scientist/Doctor. He may not have fought in the Great Gi War (though it is not really proven otherwise. We know there was more to be battle of the Gi tribe and that Seto was the one who sealed off the cave) but he certainly a more admirable adversary that that quailing “Doctor” who abandoned his patient the moment things turned sideways in Mideel. In fact all elder Hargo has to do is pray to the planet for a minor earthquake (or cast it himself) and the good doctor will go fleeing from the fight (likely from ptsd).

Obsidian Fire 05/14/2018 01:06 AM

Is it bad that I can see a point no one has brought up yet?

I'm not spectating this in an offical capacity, but this has been a lot of fun to read...

Clement Rage 05/14/2018 01:08 AM

Quote:

What front? There is no mention of any front in the OG. However, it is repeatedly stated that Seto fought the Gi alone.
He fought the Gi alone in the cave, but that wasn't the whole battle. There was also the battle Red's mother died in. The Gi attacked, and Seto apparently ran away and left the others for dead. Red hated him because he never knew he had actually gone alone to defend the secret cave. Seto was alone in the cave, but he wasn't the only one fighting that day. His mom and the other fighters were at the front of the canyon, Seto was defending the secret entrance.

Quote:

So on one hand we have a medical professional who is the sole doctor on an entire island.
Doctor, not surgeon or anaesthetist. Those are highly specialist fields, whereas our Doctor runs a two room clinic with one nurse, he ain't doing major surgery. Anyone that needs that is going to either die or be airlifted somewhere else.

People tend to use weapons, rather than medical equipment to kill people for reasons. It is difficult to inject or use a scalpel on someone armed and resisting. If you're attacking someone with a sword or spear, you have far more reach and penetration. You don't just drop anaesthetics on the floor like tear gas and expect it to work, you need a gasmask or an injection at close range, which isn't instantly effective even if it works.

Cosmo Canyon isn't primitive, it's a highly scientifically literate place. Bugenhagen uses complex technology and is the most qualified person in the world on Cetra lore. People that want to know about how the Planet works come and study with the Elders of Cosmo Canyon to expand their knowledge, including the likes of Gast, who is highly qualified himself. Scientists and Doctors come to Cosmo Canyon to learn, not the other way around.

The Doctor will have no idea what's going on if he finds himself in the City of the Ancients, while Hargo will adjust far quicker, and given his combat experience against the Gi, fight far harder than the indolent doc. As he tries to understand he'll likely blind himself on the knowledge in the walls that make Cloud flinch, leaving him open to the experienced war veteran Hargo.

The Doctor is notably weak in spiritual matters, he was helpless against Cloud's spiritual complaint. He's in one of the most spiritual places on the Planet, and will struggle to adjust.

f a n c y 05/14/2018 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obsidian Fire (Post 783582)
Is it bad that I can see a point no one has brought up yet?

I'm not spectating this in an offical capacity, but this has been a lot of fun to read...

Oooooh I do hope you elaborate after the match is finished! Mayhaps in the master thread as we risk swaying a vote here (I’ve been thinking of that thread as something of a ‘lounge area’ haha). Also! May we look forward to seeing you parake in this game one of these days? Methinks you’d be rather good at this!! :megusta:

Agreed with the fun to read bit! Round one with the chocobo driver had me laughing the hardest, but this match has been the most compelling.

Obsidian Fire 05/14/2018 03:30 AM

Maybe... unfortunately, I am very good at playing Devil's Advocate with myself so I'd probably end up arguing for/against both sides!

I will have to check in on the Master Thread though if nobody catches it...

LicoriceAllsorts 05/14/2018 05:37 AM

Let's be clear. We have no evidence that anyone aside from Nanaki's parents died fighting the Gi. It would be less of a stretch to assume that they died because they were fighting alone than to assume that Nanaki's mother had Canyonmen fighting with her when Seto was fighting alone. It would also be rather sexist, when we all know that the female of the species is deadlier than the male. So let's hear no more of this sophistry that Hargo must have fought in the Gi war simply because the Gi war happened. The mere fact that he's still alive strongly suggests that he didn't. . The Canyon people have always depended on Nanaki's people for their defence: it's a symbiotic relationship, like the clownfish and the anemone. The clownfish has no defensive abilities because it relies on the anemone to keep its enemies at bay.

Far from being a negligent healer, our Doctor is a great psychologist. He understands that, as a consequence of mako poisoning, the root of Cloud's illness lies in his mind, and that his best chance of healing lies in the support and positivity of his friends. He hardly abandons Cloud; he simply takes the Avalanche crowd into the next room so that Tifa and Cloud can have some privacy, while he briefs the rest of Cloud's friends on the situation. Though he himself cannot cure Cloud, he has an inkling of who can, and creates the opportunity for that to happen.

It's clear that he is still the doctor in charge of Cloud's case when Tifa consults him during the earthquake:

"Tifa
This is bad...... The tremors are getting worse.
Wait a minute, Cloud.
Doctor! Shouldn't we move him somewhere rather than stay here...?"

Speaking of which, it becomes obvious that Mideel is an area that is regularly stricken by quakes when the nurse exclaims, "I hate earthquakes!" How would she know she hated them unless she had experienced them before?

So let's recap:
- No evidence that Elder Hargo ever fought in a battle or has any self-defense skills whatsoever (plus, his mental faculties are failing)
- Plenty of evidence that the doctor continues to care for Cloud until the very moment when the earthquake destroys the clinic
- some evidence that the Mideel area is regularly struck by earthquakes

Channy 05/14/2018 06:50 AM

I’m not sure what the earthquake evidence is for supporting the doctor... but in your own quotes portion it is Tifa who asks the doctor to move Cloud for his safety, not the other way around. The doctor would sooner run for the hills and save his own hide when another earthquake came than try rescue Cloud. In fact, he does just that! In the sequence hat follows its Tifa with the wheelchair and Cloud falling in those depths.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120410005503

Oh where is our friend the doctor?? Nowhere in sight.

LicoriceAllsorts 05/14/2018 07:21 AM

The doctor stayed behind, to make sure everyone got out safely, and was crushed in the collapse of his clinic. Like a good captain, he went down with his ship. The courage he demonstrated in this crisis makes a stark contrast to Elder Hargo hiding behind Seto and Nanaki's mother when the Gi attacked.

(If he'd followed Cloud and Tifa too closely he'd have ended up in the Lifestream sequenced with them, and that would have been weird.) :awesomonster:

BforBrigitta 05/14/2018 12:50 PM

Elder Hargo sits cross-legged by the fish, staring up at his opponent through the translucent green tendrils of the hypnotically swaying anemone. The doctor appears slightly younger, perhaps even more agile, and looks down on the Elder with a smug turn of his lips underneath his moustache.

Elder Hargo is unsettlingly calm. The Doctor takes a tentative step, but stops when Elder Hargo closes his eyes.

Harnessing the spirits that loom over the Forgotten City, Elder Hargo begins to chant, his age-ripened voice hoarse but speaking with an uncannily even cadence:

"An Ode To Seto

They hear you cry on the dark side of the moon
Awooooo, awooooo
The sky, she cries
Tears cold as your stone eyes

Spikes
Symbols of your sacrifice
Your son, left behind
He loved pork rinds

Champion of our sacred canyon
Sharp and bitey, a divine onion
The Gi unmatched to your strength
Grant me your spirit's power to the tenth"


The earth begins to shake, a rattling sound echoing throughout the hollow spiral. The Doctor braces himself against a wall as he is almost knocked off-balance by the tremors. Elder Hargo, imbued by the spirit of his own strength that lay dormant within him as well as the fighting spirit of Seto, begins to glow a mysterious blue light, illuminating himself as well as the fish before him. Elder Hargo, under the secrets that the lifelong tutelage of Bugenhagen has taught him, begins to hover in his sitting position, the blue light glowing brighter by the second.

It soon becomes too bright to look into directly, and The Doctor shields his eyes from the light. The air is growing cold, an icy wind gusting inside, its power exacerbated by the hollow spiral. The Doctor is shivering as he falls to his knees and his body folds unto itself, attempting to resist the pandemonium of elements clamouring around him.

Elder Hargo, still in his sitting position, hovers with placid composure in his place at the base of the room. He closes his eyes once more, and the room is suddenly engulfed by a final flurry of icy cold and a burst of white light!

...

The air settles, the icy sensation dissipating, and The Doctor wrenches open his eyelids, white spots still lingering in his eyesight. His eyes readjust... to reveal that the room has been tinted orange.

"Feeling comfortable?"

Though nowhere to be seen, the even cadence of Elder Hargo's age-ripened voice floats through the atmosphere, but his voice is muffled... Drowned out by womb-like white noise.

Swish, swish, swish.

Translucent green tendrils sway hypnotically before his very eyes, and The Doctor fearfully realises where he is, suddenly finding himself unable to move.

Ergo 05/14/2018 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bforbrigitta (Post 783598)
Elder Hargo sits cross-legged by the fish, staring up at his opponent through the translucent green tendrils of the hypnotically swaying anemone. The doctor appears slightly younger, perhaps even more agile, and looks down on the Elder with a smug turn of his lips underneath his moustache.

Elder Hargo is unsettlingly calm. The Doctor takes a tentative step, but stops when Elder Hargo closes his eyes.

Harnessing the spirits that loom over the Forgotten City, Elder Hargo begins to chant, his age-ripened voice hoarse but speaking with an uncannily even cadence:

"An Ode To Seto

They hear you cry on the dark side of the moon
Awooooo, awooooo
The sky, she cries
Tears cold as your stone eyes

Spikes
Symbols of your sacrifice
Your son, left behind
He loved pork rinds

Champion of our sacred canyon
Sharp and bitey, a divine onion
The Gi unmatched to your strength
Grant me your spirit's power to the tenth"


The earth begins to shake, a rattling sound echoing throughout the hollow spiral. The Doctor braces himself against a wall as he is almost knocked off-balance by the tremors. Elder Hargo, imbued by the spirit of his own strength that lay dormant within him as well as the fighting spirit of Seto, begins to glow a mysterious blue light, illuminating himself as well as the fish before him. Elder Hargo, under the secrets that the lifelong tutelage of Bugenhagen has taught him, begins to hover in his sitting position, the blue light glowing brighter by the second.

It soon becomes too bright to look into directly, and The Doctor shields his eyes from the light. The air is growing cold, an icy wind gusting inside, its power exacerbated by the hollow spiral. The Doctor is shivering as he falls to his knees and his body folds unto itself, attempting to resist the pandemonium of elements clamouring around him.

Elder Hargo, still in his sitting position, hovers with placid composure in his place at the base of the room. He closes his eyes once more, and the room is suddenly engulfed by a final flurry of icy cold and a burst of white light!

...

The air settles, the icy sensation dissipating, and The Doctor wrenches open his eyelids, white spots still lingering in his eyesight. His eyes readjust... to reveal that the room has been tinted orange.

"Feeling comfortable?"

Though nowhere to be seen, the even cadence of Elder Hargo's age-ripened voice floats through the atmosphere, but his voice is muffled... Drowned out by womb-like white noise.

Swish, swish, swish.

Translucent green tendrils sway hypnotically before his very eyes, and The Doctor fearfully realises where he is, suddenly finding himself unable to move.


The doctor looks at the elder in astonishment before raising his sonic screwdriver to the air and summoning a great blue box from apparently nowhere. The box travels through time and space before eventually appearing above the elders head. Gravity hits and the elder is squashed into a pile of goop by the TARDIS.

Am I doing this right?

LicoriceAllsorts 05/14/2018 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bforbrigitta (Post 783598)
Elder Hargo sits cross-legged by the fish, staring up at his opponent through the translucent green tendrils of the hypnotically swaying anemone. The doctor appears slightly younger, perhaps even more agile, and looks down on the Elder with a smug turn of his lips underneath his moustache.

Elder Hargo is unsettlingly calm. The Doctor takes a tentative step, but stops when Elder Hargo closes his eyes.

Harnessing the spirits that loom over the Forgotten City, Elder Hargo begins to chant, his age-ripened voice hoarse but speaking with an uncannily even cadence:

"An Ode To Seto

They hear you cry on the dark side of the moon
Awooooo, awooooo
The sky, she cries
Tears cold as your stone eyes

Spikes
Symbols of your sacrifice
Your son, left behind
He loved pork rinds

Champion of our sacred canyon
Sharp and bitey, a divine onion
The Gi unmatched to your strength
Grant me your spirit's power to the tenth"


The earth begins to shake, a rattling sound echoing throughout the hollow spiral. The Doctor braces himself against a wall as he is almost knocked off-balance by the tremors. Elder Hargo, imbued by the spirit of his own strength that lay dormant within him as well as the fighting spirit of Seto, begins to glow a mysterious blue light, illuminating himself as well as the fish before him. Elder Hargo, under the secrets that the lifelong tutelage of Bugenhagen has taught him, begins to hover in his sitting position, the blue light glowing brighter by the second.

It soon becomes too bright to look into directly, and The Doctor shields his eyes from the light. The air is growing cold, an icy wind gusting inside, its power exacerbated by the hollow spiral. The Doctor is shivering as he falls to his knees and his body folds unto itself, attempting to resist the pandemonium of elements clamouring around him.

Elder Hargo, still in his sitting position, hovers with placid composure in his place at the base of the room. He closes his eyes once more, and the room is suddenly engulfed by a final flurry of icy cold and a burst of white light!

...

The air settles, the icy sensation dissipating, and The Doctor wrenches open his eyelids, white spots still lingering in his eyesight. His eyes readjust... to reveal that the room has been tinted orange.

"Feeling comfortable?"

Though nowhere to be seen, the even cadence of Elder Hargo's age-ripened voice floats through the atmosphere, but his voice is muffled... Drowned out by womb-like white noise.

Swish, swish, swish.

Translucent green tendrils sway hypnotically before his very eyes, and The Doctor fearfully realises where he is, suddenly finding himself unable to move.

And Elder Hargo didn't use this incredible power of his to defeat
a) the Gi
b) Meteor
Because......?

LicoriceAllsorts 05/14/2018 01:53 PM

"Ah, there you are," said the Doctor, making his way up the spiral path, bag in hand. "Sorry I'm late. I had a difficult case on my hands."

"Never mind, never mind." Elder Hargo looked around. "Oh, pretty fish. Are we in an aquarium?"

"Apparently this is the lost City of the Ancients. We've gathered to do battle."

"Ah, you don't say. How exciting. Are you a warrior?"

"I'm a doctor, and I'd like to get a move on. I have a house call booked at six."

"I used to know a doctor," said Elder Hargo dreamily. "His name was Gast. Doesn't that sound a bit like ghost? He came to Cosmo Canyon to study planet life. He was interested in the Ancients. Are you interested in the Ancients?"

"Not particularly."

"I collect legends of the Ancients. I study their ways."

"Then you must be fascinated to be here."

"Why, where are we? Oh, look, a fish. Are we in an aquarium?"

"Yes," said the doctor, opening his bag.

"I visited an aquarium once. No, not an aquarium. I went to the sea-side. You can see star fish in the rock pools, did you know that?"

"Really?" said the doctor, pulling the wrapper off a sterile hypodermic and affixing it to a syringe.

"Must we fight?" asked the old man querously. "I don't like fighting. I don't know how to fight. Even when I was a lad I didn't enjoy the roughhousing. I like to sit around the Candle, counting the stars and telling stories."

"And you soon will again," said the doctor, as he drew fluid into the syringe from a small glass vial.

"I hope that's homeopathic," said Elder Hargo. "My body is a temple."

"Tell me about the Ancients." The doctor peered over his glasses to check the dose.

"They wandered the Planet, cultivating life to enhance the lifestream. They were constantly on the move to wherever they were needed. It was a meaningful existence, but a tiring one. When they died, they became one with the Planet, and at last they were allowed to rest."

"And now it's time for you to rest, my friend," said the doctor gently, as he slid the needle under Hargo's skin with such skill that Hargo didn't even feel the pinch. He injected just enough nembutal into the old man's veins to ensure he would remain unconscious for at least twelve hours. Elder Hargo's eyes began to flutter. The doctor helped him to a bed and made him comfortable. Within moments, Hargo was fast asleep, dreaming of stars and starfish.


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