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-   -   Question about Genesis and Tifa (https://thelifestream.net/oldforums/showthread.php?t=19996)

demonwolf 09/15/2017 11:11 PM

Question about Genesis and Tifa
 
I'm shaky on Crisis Core knowledge so, um...have these two ever met? Does she even know he existed at one point? I know there's a ship for them so I wonder.

ChipNoir 09/15/2017 11:13 PM

I only remember reading that Genesis copies attack Tifa and Cloud at the reactor, but I'm shaky on those details.

f a n c y 09/15/2017 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762383)
I know there's a ship for them so I wonder.

That's 'cause my girl Tifa is a Launcher of a Thousand Ships :P

demonwolf 09/15/2017 11:39 PM

Hmm, I'm a little lost as to where that fits in the timeline. Do you mean the Nibelheim reactor? Do Cloud and Tifa meet at another reactor?...Wait...

demonwolf 09/15/2017 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FancySycamoreTree (Post 762387)
Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762383)
I know there's a ship for them so I wonder.

That's 'cause my girl Tifa is Launcher of a Thousand Ships :P

I agree. I mean she's really shippable (that a word?). Still I'm that traditional shipper who requires minimum contact in the orignal work to go "Oh yeah I can see that."

Tashasaurous 09/16/2017 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762389)
Hmm, I'm a little lost as to where that fits in the timeline. Do you mean the Nibelheim reactor? Do Cloud and Tifa meet at another reactor?...Wait...

Tifa's been completely unaware that Cloud was there up until the events of FFVII. But no, they only met again at the Nibelheim Mako Reactor, but only Cloud(and Zack and Sephiroth) was aware at the time.

But I don't think Tifa has fully met Genesis. A brief look, probably, but I doubt she even knew about him at all. She doesn't even know his name.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 12:13 AM

Yeah, Cloud would know who he is, and has been in the same room with him, but Tifa may have only ever seen some of his copies.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 12:43 AM

Thanks everyone, I really needed to know that.

Another question, how is Genesis still alive at the end of DoC? I read the wiki but am still unclear on how he survived in CC as well as what he did during DoC. Call me dumb.

Also I don't know where I read it but was Genesis saved by Minerva? Was that canon or fanon?

...It appals me that I intend to write him into my story with how little I know about him.

Tashasaurous 09/16/2017 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762399)
Thanks everyone, I really needed to know that.

Another question, how is Genesis still alive at the end of DoC? I read the wiki but am still unclear on how he survived in CC as well as what he did during DoC. Call me dumb.

Also I don't know where I read it but was Genesis saved by Minerva? Was that canon or fanon?

...It appals me that I intend to write him into my story with how little I know about him.

(SPOILER) Given the reports found by Vincent/the Player in DoC and Weiss and Nero making a cameo appearence in the near ending of Crisis Core, he was offered to join Deepground but declined, and instead chose to sleep for the next 3/4 years.

My question is what Genesis intends to do with Weiss's dead body, but Square Enix won't answer that.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 01:30 AM

.......Maybe Weiss isn't dead the way Sephiroth will never be? And then Genesis can offer him to join Genesis on whatever endeavour he seeks to accomplish by sleeping that whole time.

I'm more concerned about where he goes after disappearing with Weiss's body. Back to sleep? Where has he been sleeping? How did he know to wake up? When did he wake up? What is his motivation at this point? What was his motivation for going to sleep in the first place? Oh my god should I just make an OC and ignore his existence?

Tashasaurous 09/16/2017 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762403)
.......Maybe Weiss isn't dead the way Sephiroth will never be? And then Genesis can offer him to join Genesis on whatever endeavour he seeks to accomplish by sleeping that whole time.

I'm more concerned about where he goes after disappearing with Weiss's body. Back to sleep? Where has he been sleeping? How did he know to wake up? When did he wake up? What is his motivation at this point? What was his motivation for going to sleep in the first place? Oh my god should I just make an OC and ignore his existence?

Apparently so far in the Crisis Core Ultimita or whatever the magazine's called, the only thing we know is that Genesis woke up to protect the planet. He's been sleeping underneath Midgar.

Plus, with Jenova cells and such inside him, it allowed him with inhuman abilities similiar to Sephiroth.

I think him going to sleep is kinda similiar to what Vincent went through for 30 years.

There's a Final Fantasy VII fanfic called "The Planet's Enemy" set after Dirge of Cerberus if you want to have a read to that.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5454968...Planet-s-Enemy

I'm also an authoress on the Fanfiction.Net website and working on a series of crossovers and had something completely different with Genesis if you're interested, if you kinda like this sort of thing.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1123315...-of-Nightmares

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1163996...ts-Crisis-Core

If these two are not appealing, then "The Planet's Enemy" is the next best thing.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 06:15 AM

How is Genesis still alive? He sought the Goddess and she gave him the gift he wanted - the gift of healing. They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away. What an irony that should have been living underneath Banora all that time!

But seriously, if I were writing a fic about that I would assume that she, whatever she is, doesn't have a fixed form or exist in a fixed place. His faith drew her to where he was. She appeared to him in the form he'd imagined for her. She healed him because she didn't know what a major asshole he was.

Before he fought Zack and she appeared, Genesis was degrading, and after she intervened, he was healed, so yes, I think we can assume she, or the Planet, intervened to heal him, which is just really weird when you think about it. He's full of alien DNA.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 06:54 AM

Thanks Tashasaurous, that cleared up a lot for me. Especially since word of god said Genesis wants to protect the world. I think I'm heading in the right direction.

I was reading the first few chapters of your fic and it seemed to be very elaborate. You were clear enough with your narration but since I don't know the other fandoms that you were crossing FF7 with very well (or much at all), I still had trouble following the story. I don't think I'll be continuing them, but regardless, thank you for writing the story. You've clearly put a lot of effort into the story
, and that's something I can definitely respect in an author.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762416)

Before he fought Zack and she appeared, Genesis was degrading, and after she intervened, he was healed, so yes, I think we can assume she, or the Planet, intervened to heal him, which is just really weird when you think about it. He's full of alien DNA.

Yes this is a really big problem for me right now. I need to play with it somehow to make my storyline work.

But thanks for clarifying that it's at least marginally canon that Minerva had something to do with Genesis surviving. I was afraid I dreamt up that piece of info somehow. I feel like I've been having more and more trouble recalling where I've seen an info.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 07:41 AM

I'm not sure what the canon is regarding the geostigma cure - whether Aerith's rain cleanses the infected of Jenova's taint, and whether that taint is due to them actually having been infected with her DNA or something else, something intangible, her essence or malevolence or whatever. But I suppose it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Minerva, being the embodiment of the Planet, simply expunged all the Jenova DNA from Genesis' body, or did something else that rendered it inactive or harmless, thus restoring him to wholeness. But if this were the case, then he'd be useless to the Deepground Project. Maybe Shinra recovered him, realised he was useless, and dumped him somewhere deep under Midgar, where he either went to sleep or continued to sleep.

The OG starts only a few weeks after Genesis is cured in Banora and recovered by Shinra - possibly even only a week later or a few days, depending on how long it takes Zack to get to Midgar and how much time elapses between his death and the first bombing raid. So it seems as if Shinra wouldn't have had a huge amount of time to examine their recovered asset before the President was killed and Hojo fled and everything started falling into chaos.

That's just my two cents. The thing about fanfic is you can do whatever you like with it.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 08:10 AM

You are awesome Licorice-san. You just saved me prolly a few hours of research on the game's timeline.

But apparently in DoC Deepground could differentiate people who had had Geostigma from people who had not, so wouldn't that mean Aerith's rain cured an intangible something, while something tangible is still left behind to set the patients apart from others?

On the other note, Genesis obviously had some kind of monstrous power still at the end of DoC. So maybe Deepground had allowed him to sleep as a temporary measure instead of risking aggravating him. They never got to using him, cuz, as you said, they didn't have much time before it all went to the dogs.

I used to tell myself and my friends that we can do whatever we want with fanfics, too. Though recently I've developed this stubbornness in regards to trying to see how much of the OG I can respect while still writing what I want to write.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 11:08 AM

Same. I only really like fics that are canon-compliant (except for when canon contradicts itself. Sometimes you have to pick a side).

Like I said, it does seem as if Minerva's intervention cured Genesis. I can't remember whether or not he was in a coma from then on, or whether he briefly came to consciousness once Zack carried him to the surface. In any case, it seems as if you have a lot of decisions to make

- just how did Minerva cure Genesis?
- did he continue to harbour Jenova DNA in him after the cure?
- did Shinra get a chance to experiment on him and his DNA or did events move too fast?
- how did he end up in Deepground and why didn't Weiss and the others tear him apart?
- what powers does he still retain?

To the best of my knowledge, canon offers no answers to any of these questions so you're free to make it up.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 11:37 AM

We know he got to Deepground. Weiss and Nero showed up right after Zack left Banora, and took him with them.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 11:55 AM

Yes, but presumably at that point they were under the command of Shinra. They must have been dispatched by Shinra to do this job and took him back to whoever it was at Shinra who wanted him (Hojo?) so they whatever it was they planned to do with him could be done. My question meant - how, after having been recovered by Shinra, did he end up in the bowels of some deep dark cave miles below Midgar? (and not in a specimen tank or a drawer in the morgue?).

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 12:23 PM

I never found it mysterious myself. They were sent to recover him, and did so (and took him to the only place possibly secure enough to hold him: Deepground). They asked him to join their insurrection, and he declined. Then he left (who, other than the Tsviets could have even stood a chance at stopping him?), and hibernated until the planet called on him.

Unless they were able to implant a control chip before he woke up from Zack's beating, there would have been nothing Shin-Ra could do to stop him from leaving. The Tsviets could be ordered to fight him, sure, but they could also make a half-hearted attempt of it.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 12:57 PM

I see what you mean, but it does beg the question of what his "cure" involved. If the Jenova DNA in his body was removed, what, if anything, would happen to the powers it bestowed? if it was not removed, then what did his cure consist of - especially since Minerva is supposed to be the embodiment of the Planet and the planet recognises and is hostile to Jenova as a threat. Was his cure similar in nature to the Geostigma cure brought about by Aerith's rain? How strong is he after he is cured?

Yes, it's perfectly possible they took him to Deepground. When did the Deepground insurrection start? I really know nothing about it. At the time of rescuing him, the Deepground operatives, whoever they were (is it Weiss and Nero?) were presumably doing the bidding of their Shinra masters, so they must have taken Genesis back to whoever gave them the order to go pick him up.

Although, how did Shinra even know where Genesis was?

It's all so stupid.

Minato 09/16/2017 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762441)
I never found it mysterious myself. They were sent to recover him, and did so (and took him to the only place possibly secure enough to hold him: Deepground). They asked him to join their insurrection, and he declined. Then he left (who, other than the Tsviets could have even stood a chance at stopping him?), and hibernated until the planet called on him.

Unless they were able to implant a control chip before he woke up from Zack's beating, there would have been nothing Shin-Ra could do to stop him from leaving. The Tsviets could be ordered to fight him, sure, but they could also make a half-hearted attempt of it.

The Retrictors were a fighting unit equal or better then the Tsviets sans Weiss.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762433)

- just how did Minerva cure Genesis?
- did he continue to harbour Jenova DNA in him after the cure?
- did Shinra get a chance to experiment on him and his DNA or did events move too fast?
- how did he end up in Deepground and why didn't Weiss and the others tear him apart?
- what powers does he still retain?

This. I'm so bloody thankful that I started this thread. :awesome: You've just cleared a lot of my uncertainty about whether I would be violating canon or no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762437)
how, after having been recovered by Shinra, did he end up in the bowels of some deep dark cave miles below Midgar? (and not in a specimen tank or a drawer in the morgue?).

This is my biggest problem with Genesis's involvement, or lack thereof, during Deepground. This whole time I was under the impression he was confined somewhere in Deepground after refusing to join them (and I still don't remember where I learnt that he'd refused to join Deepground before this thread). But if he'd been completely free and allegedly wanting to protect the Planet, why did he just stand by and watch...idk both AC and DoC happen without doing anything. Some protector.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762441)
Unless they were able to implant a control chip before he woke up from Zack's beating, there would have been nothing Shin-Ra could do to stop him from leaving.

Well, evidently they didn't implant anything in him but....why didn't they? Maybe because they didn't have enough time before he woke up? I just answered my own question. Still, it sounds more like a plot convenience. After Nibelheim incident, I'd imagine ShinRa would be cautious with Genesis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762443)
I Was his cure similar in nature to the Geostigma cure brought about by Aerith's rain? How strong is he after he is cured?

I think really strong, especially since the word of god said he wants to protect the world. Knowing SE, he's prolly not a crippled messiah-wanabe.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762443)
Although, how did Shinra even know where Genesis was?

It's all so stupid.

I chalk it up to their awesome network of spies. Though those hypothetical spies lived up to this notion extremely poorly in the OG, all things considered.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762443)
I see what you mean, but it does beg the question of what his "cure" involved. If the Jenova DNA in his body was removed, what, if anything, would happen to the powers it bestowed? if it was not removed, then what did his cure consist of - especially since Minerva is supposed to be the embodiment of the Planet and the planet recognises and is hostile to Jenova as a threat. Was his cure similar in nature to the Geostigma cure brought about by Aerith's rain? How strong is he after he is cured?

Those are good questions. I wouldn't know where to begin speculating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lic
Yes, it's perfectly possible they took him to Deepground. When did the Deepground insurrection start? I really know nothing about it. At the time of rescuing him, the Deepground operatives, whoever they were (is it Weiss and Nero?) were presumably doing the bidding of their Shinra masters, so they must have taken Genesis back to whoever gave them the order to go pick him up.

They didn't necessarily have to take him to whoever gave the order -- only to where that person ordered them to take him.

In whatever case, they definitely took him to Deepground, per these sources:

https://thelifestream.net/crisis-cor...ania-timeline/
https://thelifestream.net/lifestream...a-scenario-qa/ (sections 6 and 7)

There, he refuses to join the insurrection (it was underway at the same time as the original game; the Tsviets managed to overthrow the Restrictors just in time to end up trapped under Midgar because of Meteor), then puts himself to sleep in that cave seen at the very end of DoC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762445)
The Retrictors were a fighting unit equal or better then the Tsviets sans Weiss.

They may or may not risk fighting a powerful opponent (in particular, one they can't turn off with a switch) when they have the Tsviets available to force into battle in their stead. I wouldn't expect them to engage him directly.

Minato 09/16/2017 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762466)
They may or may not risk fighting a powerful opponent (in particular, one they can't turn off with a switch) when they have the Tsviets available to force into battle in their stead. I wouldn't expect them to engage him directly.

The Restrictors are physically there in Deepground though, I find it odd that Genesis was able to arrive unconcious, get woken up, and just be on his way without any pursuit with them on the job.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 04:43 PM

I agree that it would be odd if they didn't try to stop him at all. I can only conclude that they sent the Tsviets to stop him -- and those guys, of course, wouldn't have actually wanted to.

Minato 09/16/2017 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762468)
I agree that it would be odd if they didn't try to stop him at all. I can only conclude that they sent the Tsviets to stop him -- and those guys, of course, wouldn't have actually wanted to.

Restrictors: Well, go on then.
Weiss: Well we tried sir, but he was so strong. We're sorry.
Restrictor: well, okay as long as you did your best, back to your room it is.

Is not how that would go.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 04:48 PM

It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

Minato 09/16/2017 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762472)
It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

They can keep sending them after Genesis though. Genesis is down there with the Restrictors and the Tsviets in Deepground and he's not only able to fight them off, he's able to sleep through the affair.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 04:55 PM

Sometimes I resent Genesis's existence just because of how many loose ends he leaves in his wake. Pun intended.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 04:59 PM

I know what you mean. He spoils everything.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762443)
I Was his cure similar in nature to the Geostigma cure brought about by Aerith's rain? How strong is he after he is cured?

I think really strong, especially since the word of god said he wants to protect the world. Knowing SE, he's prolly not a crippled messiah-wanabe.
It would make him more intereting tho if he was.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762477)
Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762443)
I Was his cure similar in nature to the Geostigma cure brought about by Aerith's rain? How strong is he after he is cured?

I think really strong, especially since the word of god said he wants to protect the world. Knowing SE, he's prolly not a crippled messiah-wanabe.
It would make him more intereting tho if he was.

It really would! Fanfic idea if anyone wanna adopt that.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762473)
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762472)
It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

They can keep sending them after Genesis though. Genesis is down there with the Restrictors and the Tsviets in Deepground and he's not only able to fight them off, he's able to sleep through the affair.

I don't think we're supposed to assume they know where he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762478)
Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762477)
Quote:


I think really strong, especially since the word of god said he wants to protect the world. Knowing SE, he's prolly not a crippled messiah-wanabe.
It would make him more intereting tho if he was.

It really would! Fanfic idea if anyone wanna adopt that.

Shademp and I have done that. :monster:

demonwolf 09/16/2017 05:17 PM

[QUOTE=The Twilight Mexican;762479]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762473)

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762478)
Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762477)
It would make him more intereting tho if he was.

It really would! Fanfic idea if anyone wanna adopt that.

Shademp and I have done that. :monster:

Of course! I should've known better than to think everything hadn't been explored already with a fandom this old.

I skimmed (i.e. read the summary gomen I'm a lazy prick) the thread. Is Genesis the antagonist in the story or is he the misunderstood hero?

jazzflower92 09/16/2017 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonwolf (Post 762474)
Sometimes I resent Genesis's existence just because of how many loose ends he leaves in his wake. Pun intended.

I see him as unintentionally unsympathetic , a creator's pet, and a karma Houdini who should have died in Crisis Core, for his heinous actions.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 05:50 PM

Tres, I can't find find the bit about Genesis being crippled/having lost his powers.

It is such a shame that game never came to fruition, even tho I know SE would never have let it see the light of day. It's funny how they tolerate fan fiction, fan music, fan art, and even fan artists making a living off producing Final Fantasy art, but they won't tolerate a non-profit fan game.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762473)
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762472)
It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

They can keep sending them after Genesis though. Genesis is down there with the Restrictors and the Tsviets in Deepground and he's not only able to fight them off, he's able to sleep through the affair.

Maybe they just respected his refusal and kept it moving?

Do they have to get into a frothy rage and pointlessly fight Genesis?

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 06:21 PM

Maybe the goddess throws a protective cloak of magical concealmeant around him, since for some inexplicable reason she's on his side.

Minato 09/16/2017 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762494)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762473)
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762472)
It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

They can keep sending them after Genesis though. Genesis is down there with the Restrictors and the Tsviets in Deepground and he's not only able to fight them off, he's able to sleep through the affair.

Maybe they just respected his refusal and kept it moving?

Do they have to get into a frothy rage and pointlessly fight Genesis?

They being the greater Shin-Ra organisation when they are told Genesis was captured but is now on the loose again underneath Midgar and is doing God know what? What do you think their response would be?

demonwolf 09/16/2017 06:57 PM

@Licorice-san lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762494)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762473)
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762472)
It's not like they would have executed them either, though.

They can keep sending them after Genesis though. Genesis is down there with the Restrictors and the Tsviets in Deepground and he's not only able to fight them off, he's able to sleep through the affair.

Maybe they just respected his refusal and kept it moving?

Do they have to get into a frothy rage and pointlessly fight Genesis?

I feel like ShinRa/Deepground are more of control freaks than to just let him go like that.


But since we're spitballing.

Maybe Genesis acted too much like a pacifist in their custody. Combine that with a constant torrent of LOVELESS lectures, and they finally decided he was more trouble than he was worth and kicked him out.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 07:46 PM

Quote:

They being the greater Shin-Ra organisation when they are told Genesis was captured but is now on the loose again underneath Midgar and is doing God know what? What do you think their response would be?
Depends; is he more trouble than he's worth to try to capture? The Turks for example, easily make the determination of 'fuck this' more than once when dealing with AVALANCHE.

Minato 09/16/2017 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762508)
Quote:

They being the greater Shin-Ra organisation when they are told Genesis was captured but is now on the loose again underneath Midgar and is doing God know what? What do you think their response would be?
Depends; is he more trouble than he's worth to try to capture? The Turks for example, easily make the determination of 'fuck this' more than once when dealing with AVALANCHE.

Genesis is the most powerful being left on the Planet and personally started a solo war against the Shinra that sprawled the entire world. He's on a completely different level from either versions of AVALANCHE. Yeah, I have a hard time believing anyone is sleeping quietly knowing he is beneath Midgar and doesn't have a chip in him.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 07:51 PM

Quote:

Genesis is the most powerful being left on the Planet and personally started a solo war against the Shinra that sprawled the entire world. He's on a completely different level from either versions of AVALANCHE.
So is that a guy you're trying to fight?

Minato 09/16/2017 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762511)
Quote:

Genesis is the most powerful being left on the Planet and personally started a solo war against the Shinra that sprawled the entire world. He's on a completely different level from either versions of AVALANCHE.
So is that a guy you're trying to fight?

Your best chances of taking him down are in Deepground, but you prefer to keep all of them tucked away in Deepground for good reasons. Genesis, out there on his own devices might decided to go topside where they don't like deploying Deepground. So unless there was some reason they knew Genesis would underground that seems like a timesensitive issue they'd wanna get on ASAP.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762513)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762511)
Quote:

Genesis is the most powerful being left on the Planet and personally started a solo war against the Shinra that sprawled the entire world. He's on a completely different level from either versions of AVALANCHE.
So is that a guy you're trying to fight?

Your best chances of taking him down are in Deepground, but you prefer to keep all of them tucked away in Deepground for good reasons. Genesis, out there on his own devices might decided to go topside where they don't like deploying Deepground. So unless there was some reason they knew Genesis would underground that seems like a timesensitive issue they'd wanna get on ASAP.

We're speculating because we're not really sure of Genesis level of strength relative to Deepground's, but generally (and I feel comfortable saying this as an actual representative of a military), military forces, at least smart military forces, aren't in the business of getting into fights that they can't win.

If it was determined that engaging Genesis would lead to a certain level of casualties or damage that would disrupt their greater strategy (or would generally be unacceptable), then I can absolutely seeing them letting him walk away, if only to plan something else later on.

Going "oh well the answer's no Genesis? prepare to fite" and then getting murderized by Genesis immediately afterwards as a result is not a smart move.

Minato 09/16/2017 08:09 PM

They didn't make the "smart move" and leave Sephiroth to his own devices after he left Midgar either.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 08:12 PM

If anything that only helps my argument, that was before Genesis; couldn't they have learned from that very stupid and very fatal mistake?

Minato 09/16/2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cat Rage Room (Post 762517)
If anything that only helps my argument, that was before Genesis; couldn't they have learned from that very stupid and very fatal mistake?

That was after Genesis. It goes Nero and Weiss retrieve Genesis, Genesis is brought to their slave society underneath Midgar, Genesis politey declines to be part of the Deepground is and leaves peacefully, Sephiroth kills the President and the chase for Sephiroth begins.

Cat Rage Room 09/16/2017 08:22 PM

Ah, my mistake.

Alright, I'm gong to level with you; I'm making the most sense by using the simplest rationale (as per Occams Razor) for a situation that honestly, wasn't really well written or conceived in the first place.

I definitely wouldn't give the writing associated with Genesis (or Deepground, or DoC as a whole and CC to a less extent) the same levity and thought I'd give to say, J.E. Sawyer's incredibly meticulous care and respect he gave when writing Fallout: New Vegas.

It's much, much more reasonable in my mind to just assume that Genesis wasn't worth the trouble to fight at that time than to leave it up to the birds, or worse, come up with a much more convoluted answer.

jazzflower92 09/16/2017 08:41 PM

I have to say they should never had created Genesis and just focused on the character of Angeal. He has more potential as a tragic character than Genesis ever did.

Minato 09/16/2017 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzflower92 (Post 762521)
I have to say they should never had created Genesis and just focused on the character of Angeal. He has more potential as a tragic character than Genesis ever did.

i always left that Sephiroth, Zack and Cloud seemed like main character material personally.

The Twilight Mexican 09/16/2017 08:50 PM

One really has to wonder what the plan was for Genesis. For whatever reason, they wanted him brought in alive rather than executed, and lost a golden opportunity when he was left unconscious in Banora.

Minato 09/16/2017 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Twilight Mexican (Post 762523)
One really has to wonder what the plan was for Genesis. For whatever reason, they wanted him brought in alive rather than executed, and lost a golden opportunity when he was left unconscious in Banora.

I can quite see how Shinra might want to capitalise on Genesis having been left defeated but alive by Zack and bring him to Deepground, put a chip on him and get him back under control. And then Weiss and Nero then woke him up before they had a chance to to ask him to join their revolution which Genesis declined. The next step where Shinra Inc is convinced the Genesis matter is over and settled is a mystery to me.

demonwolf 09/16/2017 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Stark (Post 762523)
The next step where Shinra Inc is convinced the Genesis matter is over and settled is a mystery to me.

I like the idea that he's woken up before a chip can be planted.

They might not have thought the the matter is settled, though. Assuming Genesis already went into hibernation, they prolly couldn't find him and decided to move on with other things while still keeping him in mind. And as suggested before, they might not have had a lot of time between Genesis's sleep and Sephiroth's return.

Some hints of their search for Genesis might have been in the OG had he had, yknow, existed at all by the time they were making FF7.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 11:01 PM

Do "they" actually have these control chips of which you speak?

Do those poor sods in Deepground have Jenova DNA in them too, or have they been superpowered in some other way?

Maybe "they" determined Genesis was in an irreversible coma and decided to leave him to rot?

demonwolf 09/16/2017 11:16 PM

Well I'm not exactly expert in DoC knowledge either (what am i saying I'm not expert in anything) but I thought some form of theoretical 'absolute' control is the basis for the Restrictors. And I just kinda went along with the chip thing since it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread.

I think I read somewhere (yes again with this source amnesia crap from me:awesome:) that Tsviets are spliced with Genesis's DNA? And Genesis is like...less part-Jenova than Sephiroth is.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LicoriceAllsorts (Post 762534)
Maybe "they" determined Genesis was in an irreversible coma and decided to leave him to rot?

I thought this was also a possiblity. But then everyone started discussing in terms that he 'refused' the offer to join the Deepground coup, so I thought whether he was awake or not was never a debate.

LicoriceAllsorts 09/16/2017 11:28 PM

OK - bearing in my mind that I know nothing about DoC timeline.... How can the Tseviets be sent out to hunt Genesis if they are made from his DNA? If they are made from his DNA it stands to reason that the people who made them must have had Genesis in order to extract the DNA. So were they made before he went AWOL at the beginning of Crisis Core or were they made after he was recaptured at the end? Because if it was the latter, then they couldn't have been sent to hunt him down because they didn't yet exist, and if it was the former...

Well I am just mystified how anyone at Shinra could have thought it was a good idea to create a hidden army of supersoldiers from the DNA of a degrading renegrade. Not even Hojo would have done that. It's so many degrees of stupid I can't even

demonwolf 09/16/2017 11:38 PM

I still need somebody to fact check me on the Genesis/Jenova DNA thing so I can't argue against how stupid it is, haha, only for.

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I stop to wonder why I try to make sense of something even though I don't really get anything out of it once it's made sense of. Meanwhile, the corporate that churned out this confusing something already made millions from it.
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BTT, I think the Tsviet is already there before Genesis went rogue. So if they're really spliced with his DNA then it was because ShinRa never knew he was gon be defective.

Obsidian Fire 09/16/2017 11:46 PM

It's a bit inaccurate to say the Genesis is less part-Jenova then Sephiroth is. Most of that is based whatever inaccurate ideas Shinra had about what Jenova actually was all the way back before they even knew she wasn't a Cetra. All that basically means is that when Genesis was born, Shinra didn't think he had whatever they were looking for, so they gave him up to be adopted. Sephiroth, however did, so they kept him as an experiment. Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth all have different Jenova-traits, it's just that Sephiroth's were the ones that were found out about first.

What can be said is that the way Jenova-cells were introduced to Genesis were different then the way they were introduced to Sephiroth, so that's probably where at least some of the difference comes from.

As for how the different ways they got them... Sephiroth's J-cells come from those Lucrecia was given before/during the time she was pregnant with him. Angeal's come from the cells Gillian had (after everyone in Shinra thought Gillian's experiment was a failure). Genesis had Gilllian's genes spliced into his while he was in a test-tube. He's arguably the one with the most "proactive" use of Jenova's copying abilities though. He's also the one who's DNA breaks down the fastest, which is the main thing he gets "healed" from by the goddess.

The relationship the Tsviets and Genesis have is really murky. Sometime after Genesis was born, someone in Shinra realized his cells did have something going on with them and spliced his DNA into that of the Tsviets. So the Tsviets themselves have never been exposed to Jenova cells (that's what the whole "pure" thing is about). They just have some very mutated human DNA added to them.

As for why DG wants Genesis... there's a big difference between having the DNA of something vs haveing the acutal thing. Also, Genesis just got the one big flaw in his DNA (the degradation) fixed. So I could see someone wanting to see what the differences are.


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