New site staff and Mod, TresDias/Squall_of_SeeD

[Cat Rage Room]

It's also a site for building games, not a site for discussing them. The two aren't really comparable, especially since there aren't many sites for building games. If people don't like the atmosphere at this Square Enix site, and most of them won't when the staff admits they don't give a shit what anyone thinks, they'll find a Square Enix that has a staff with a better attitude.

Why isn't it comparable? It's still a site that's based on a community, a Staff, a goal, and discussing games (that we build) and there are quite a few to go to if some members don't like it at that particular one. Some leave, but many stay because the the head guy has proven that he knows what he's doing. Sure, he takes suggestions, but he's not going to feel obligated to even listen if he doesn't like it. Why should he or anyone else? It's his site.

[Cat Rage Room]

He doesn't want to get his way. He wants sufficient information. There's a difference.

'His way' being 'sufficient information', which I remind you is subjective by his standards.

[Marauder]

Sufficient information isn't the way you normally run things? No wonder you had to concede your boss' point earlier.

[Cat Rage Room]

Sufficient information isn't the way you normally run things? No wonder you had to concede your boss' point earlier.

Sufficient information is subjective. For some, 'sufficient information' is as simple as 'because I said so' and for others 'sufficient information' is a 11 page thesis.

And yes I had to concede my bosses point because we're both adults and he has a fucking company to manage and I had other appointments to attend to. Even if that wasn't the case and we both had all the time in the world, I'm not that childish to think that someone owes me sufficient information. What if my boss told me 'too bad this conversation is over'? The best I could do at that point was quit. What else would you suggest, force feeding him truth serum?

[The Man]

Mako Eyes wrote:

We have before. We agree on that, right? Can staff not make any decision at all as staff in terms of making appointments as well, too? It's not like we're appointing a new admin here. It's just one mod.

Well, from observing how this instance went over, I think you could probably infer that in the future gauging the public's reaction before staffing someone would be a much better idea.

To be specific, maybe I should say a more impartial view. I agree there's no such thing as a perfectly impartial view point since humans are incapable of it. But him being a fresh face and new to how things go down here, could help in gaining new ideas and viewpoints on how things are done. I don't know what's so hard to understand about how gaining a fresh perspective from someone outside is valuable in management. It's why businesses hire outside consultants, or appoint completely new individuals (those who have no history at all with the company in question) to management positions or higher. Incidentally that too can be to the chagrin of some of the older workers at the company but in the long run it can serve the business's interests as whole in the long run. If the individual proves themselves to be a good choice for said position, that is.

This strikes me as a pretty poor analogy, since there are substantial differences between a forum and a business. The sole aim of a business is to generate profits for its shareholders. Honestly, this generates a lot of problems in our society, but that's a rant for another thread. A forum, by contrast, has to please most of its member base most of the time if it wants to maintain a decent level of activity, which I assume you guys do (though some things I've seen make me wonder). There may be the completely off chance every once in awhile that an outsider will be able to come in and understand the community perfectly, but generally it seems to me that in nearly all cases, someone who knows the community already and has a pretty good gauging of what the members want would be a much better choice than someone who's completely new to the forum, no matter how much experience that person has moderating other communities. The simple fact is that each community is completely unique. Insights gleaned from one community may be somewhat helpful on others, but they can't be transferred over one to one. Expecting a person with little experience at a forum to be able to moderate that forum's users as well as someone who's been there from the beginning is putting a pretty high demand on that person, and honestly I think it's both unwise and, really, unfair.

[The Man]

Ted Lange As Your Bartender wrote:

Why isn't it comparable? It's still a site that's based on a community, a Staff, a goal, and discussing games (that we build) and there are quite a few to go to if some members don't like it at that particular one. Some leave, but many stay because the the head guy has proven that he knows what he's doing. Sure, he takes suggestions, but he's not going to feel obligated to even listen if he doesn't like it. Why should he or anyone else? It's his site.

I'm sorry, but discussing games someone else has made and discussing games that are in construction are two completely different things. There are so many Square Enix sites in existence that it's easy just to find another one more suitable to one's needs. While if a member has gotten involved with a particular game building project, there's no other forum he can go to to discuss that project. Once he's committed to the project, he has a lot more incentive to stay.

[Marauder]

Ted Lange As Your Bartender wrote:

Sufficient information is subjective. For some, 'sufficient information' is as simple as 'because I said so' and for others 'sufficient information' is a 11 page thesis.

And yes I had to concede my bosses point because we're both adults and he has a fucking company to manage and I had other appointments to attend to. Even if that wasn't the case and we both had all the time in the world, I'm not that childish to think that someone owes me sufficient information. What if my boss told me 'too bad this conversation is over'? The best I could do at that point was quit. What else would you suggest, force feeding him truth serum?

This sounds like a plan. Let me know how it goes.

[The Man]

Ted Lange As Your Bartender wrote:

Because life isn't about 'advantages' in arguments all the time and not everyone is going to agree (or care) about the quality of information given to you. What would you do if one of us (or anyone in such an argument) told you to go fuck yourself and ended the conversation?

If you as a staff member did that I'd demand to have you removed from your position for breaching rules yet again. If some random person did it I'd probably just walk away. Shit happens. But as staff members it's clearly your duty to respond to the arguments of members, at least if you want to be taken seriously.

Nag them to death? Recently I had an argument with one of my bosses about how they handle scheduling. The debate and the information given to me wasn't satisfactory, but I had to cut my losses and call it a day. What the fuck else was I going to do, follow him home and tap him on the shoulder constantly because I didn't like the answer he was giving me?

I've never had that problem because my bosses are civilised human beings. If I were in a job where that were a problem, then depending on the economy and my appreciation of the job I'd either suck it up or find a better job.

No, there is such as thing as cutting your losses like an adult when you don't get your way and it doesn't look like you're going to.

Yeah, because it's pretty clear that there won't be any negative consequences I'll actually care about for continuing to ask for more information and/or discussion I mean, you'll continue to slyly insult me but I obviously don't care about that

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm sorry, but discussing games someone else has made and discussing games that are in construction are two completely different things. There are so many Square Enix sites in existence that it's easy just to find another one more suitable to one's needs. While if a member has gotten involved with a particular game building project, there's no other forum he can go to to discuss that project. Once he's committed to the project, he has a lot more incentive to stay.

Those points are irrelevant, dude. The point I'm making is that the only thing a webmaster owes anyone is the focus of the site, and that applies to any subject. If RMN isn't a good enough example, let me point you to Chrono Compendium, or Due Fiumi, sites that focus on Chrono Trigger and the Suikoden series respectively.

[The Man]

Chrono Compendium has unparalleled information about its franchise, so again it's not really a fair comparison. Does it even have a forum? Last I checked it didn't, though admittedly it's been years.

As for Due Fiumi, I don't know a thing about that; the only Suikoden site I've ever visited is Suikosource.

Anyway you guys aren't the webmasters, you're the staff. So comparing yourselves to the people who provide the content is pretty presumptuous. Obviously the webmasters should focus on providing content, but the forum managers should focus on making the experience as enjoyable as possible for the maximum number of people. At least if they know a damn thing about what they're doing.

[Cat Rage Room]

If you as a staff member did that I'd demand to have you removed from your position for breaching rules yet again. If some random person did it I'd probably just walk away. Shit happens. But as staff members it's clearly your duty to respond to the arguments of members, at least if you want to be taken seriously.

No, I wouldn't say that as a Staff member, but what would you do if Yop said it? Demand he be de-admined? Oh that's right, you can't, because he owns the site. The best thing you could possibly do about it is complain or leave.

I dunno. I've never had that problem because my bosses are civilised human beings. If I were in a job where that were a problem, then depending on the economy and my appreciation of the job I'd either suck it up or find a better job.

So having to end a debate means my bosses aren't civilized human beings is what you're implying? Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Totally.

[Makoeyes987]

Ⓐaron wrote:

Well, from observing how this instance went over, I think you could probably infer that in the future gauging the public's reaction before staffing someone would be a much better idea.

Really? It seems that the problems raised regarding this appointment would've happened regardless of if we said it before, or after. It was about who he was and his credentials, not about when or how it was announced. And I honestly don't see why there is no sense of good faith or trust in the staff's one appointment we've done to replace an AWOL staffer. What's the point in us being given the trust and responsibility to use our judgment as staff if its going to be completely mistrusted? I could see this level of dubiousness and doubt if the guy was suddenly made the admin of our site or something, but for something as mundane as a moderator? That really confuses me.

This strikes me as a pretty poor analogy, since there are substantial differences between a forum and a business. The sole aim of a business is to generate profits for its shareholders. Honestly, this generates a lot of problems in our society, but that's a rant for another thread. A forum, by contrast, has to please most of its member base most of the time if it wants to maintain a decent level of activity, which I assume you guys do (though some things I've seen make me wonder). There may be the completely off chance every once in awhile that an outsider will be able to come in and understand the community perfectly, but generally it seems to me that in nearly all cases, someone who knows the community already and has a pretty good gauging of what the members want would be a much better choice than someone who's completely new to the forum, no matter how much experience that person has moderating other communities. The simple fact is that each community is completely unique. Insights gleaned from one community may be somewhat helpful on others, but they can't be transferred over one to one. Expecting a person with little experience at a forum to be able to moderate that forum's users as well as someone who's been there from the beginning is putting a pretty high demand on that person, and honestly I think it's both unwise and, really, unfair.

Oui. I'm going to stop making analogies now

Knowing Tres, I and other staff are more than confident he'll be a great addition to staff and he'll fall under those "completely off chances every once in awhile." Tres isn't going to be doing it alone, and we'll of course be helping him. If things go wrong, we'll be on top of it. In fact, I'll take personal responsibility for it. And honestly, I don't see how it's unfair to anyone seeing as how we had no plans of promising anyone else moderator status, nor made any agreements either.

Anyways, it's getting late, and I'm gonna have to get to bed for work. I hope you don't take our disagreement personally and will give Tres a chance. Don't know if it means anything but I certainly don't think less of you over a disagreement here or whatever. It's just the way life is.

[Cat Rage Room]

Chrono Compendium has unparalleled information about its franchise, so again it's not really a fair comparison. Does it even have a forum? Last I checked it didn't, though admittedly it's been years.

It has a forum, and TLS is pretty close in the comparison of having information all in one place that isn't paralleled by any mainstream FF site.

Anyway you guys aren't the webmasters, you're the staff. So comparing yourselves to the people who provide the content is pretty presumptuous.

Who else provides the content? Did all of the information on the front page of the site get there by magic?

[The Man]

Mako Eyes wrote:

Really? It seems that the problems raised regarding this appointment would've happened regardless of if we said it before, or after. It was about who he was and his credentials, not about when or how it was announced. And I honestly don't see why there is no sense of good faith or trust in the staff's one appointment we've done to replace an AWOL staffer. What's the point in us being given the trust and responsibility to use our judgment as staff if its going to be completely mistrusted? I could see this level of dubiousness and doubt if the guy was suddenly made the admin of our site or something, but for something as mundane as a moderator? That really confuses me.

To be honest if he had just made section moderator of the final fantasy forums I doubt people would care too much, but as a super mod he has access to mod everything on the board. That's a pretty major step for someone who's barely been a member for a month.

And yeah, the problems would have been raised regardless. You may have had to alter your approach, either by giving him less power or by choosing someone else. That's what happens when you base your actions off member feedback, but it generally results in people being more satisfied all around.

I think the principal problem is that we have to trust your judgement of someone else's judgement, without having previously seen anything ourselves of that person's judgement to base our own opinions off of. It's strange.

Oui. I'm going to stop making analogies now

Knowing Tres, I and other staff are more than confident he'll be a great addition to staff and he'll fall under those "completely off chances every once in awhile." Tres isn't going to be doing it alone, and we'll of course be helping him. If things go wrong, we'll be on top of it.

I guess we'll have to take your word on it

And honestly, I don't see how it's unfair to anyone seeing as how we had no plans of promising anyone else moderator status, nor made any agreements either.

I already explained my reasoning about this above, but there's really little point in my repeating myself, especially since I can't find where I brought up unfairness in the text you quoted.

Anyways, it's getting late, and I'm gonna have to get to bed for work. I hope you don't take our disagreement personally and will give Tres a chance. Don't know if it means anything but I certainly don't think less of you over a disagreement here or whatever. It's just the way life is.

Fair enough, and thanks.

[The Man]

Ted Lange As Your Bartender wrote:

No, I wouldn't say that as a Staff member, but what would you do if Yop said it? Demand he be de-admined? Oh that's right, you can't, because he owns the site. The best thing you could possibly do about it is complain or leave.

I already said what I'd do, I'd suck it up. I'd probably complain about the injustice too or respond with a simple "no u"

So having to end a debate means my bosses aren't civilized human beings is what you're implying? Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Totally.

Depending on the information they refused to supply. To be honest I didn't bother paying attention to what the argument was about, because I don't really care.