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Final Fantasy Tactics All of the Final Fantasy-based tactical role-playing games.

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Old 09/02/2010   #16
ForceStealer
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All right, so, not only did Tactics occur after FFXII, the legend of the Zodiac Braves did as well, right? Or just Ajora's death if the story didn't happen at all.

If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?

This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.
Which, by the way, is fine, and interestingly the polar opposite of what the Compilation of FF7 is doing. That is, every entry absolutely must be directly related to the events of FF7 with no unrelated stuff which can be frustrating for the opposite reason.
But you would have expected part of XII to include something about the war (between those 7 kingdoms Lionel, Zeltennia, Mullonde/Murond, and whatever they were), but it doesn't. Again, this is fine, it just makes me wonder how much Matsuno was actually planning this out, if he was at all. Because even all those years ago he rather stealthily put Vagrant Story in the same world.

Unfortunately, now that he's gone, I guess we'll never know if he had some plan to tie it together,
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Old 09/02/2010   #17
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Ryu wrote: And that still doesn't quite explain the lack of the fantastics, unless Ajora/Ultima's displacement event got rid of them too, and that still begs the question why were humans spared?
There's really no explanation to be derived for why magic fell out of use, I think. Even in just the 400 years from FFT to VS it was falling by the wayside. Maybe it had something to do with the church's declining influence. Other spiritual stuff could have become square (or like modern Square amirite? ) along with it.

If FFT is the Middle Ages of Ivalice, then VS is the Renaissance. Even the aesthetics of the settings would suggest this.

As for why humans survived the Cataclysm while the other once plentiful races didn't, I'd guess it's because there was just more of them, so even if a shitton of them died along with the other races's populations, there'd still be enough left to repopulate. For that matter, the Viera might have made it through and just elected to stay away from humans after.

Force wrote: If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?
I kind of figured they were Zodiac Stones.

Force wrote: This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.
I prefer it that way. As you said, the Compilation of FFVII did the opposite and it largely sucks.

It also makes Ivalice feel more like a living, breathing world in my opinion. We don't need to know when every blade of grass grew, nor have it all depicted in a game.
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Old 09/02/2010   #18
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ForceStealer wrote: All right, so, not only did Tactics occur after FFXII, the legend of the Zodiac Braves did as well, right? Or just Ajora's death if the story didn't happen at all.

If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?
You could think of the Zodiac Stones as the next generation of the glyphs.

We don't know when it happened. This is hundreds and hundreds of years after FFXII you know.

This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.
Which, by the way, is fine, and interestingly the polar opposite of what the Compilation of FF7 is doing. That is, every entry absolutely must be directly related to the events of FF7 with no unrelated stuff which can be frustrating for the opposite reason.
I don't really mind it personally. It allows us to have interesting discussions and theories about the world. The actual stories of the games are properly told and self contained, not to mention detailed in terms of its world. So I don't feel cheated. The mystery isn't nerdrage inducing, like other compliations.
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Old 09/03/2010   #19
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There is a wiki article of some sort that seems to explain the story of Ivalice really well, though it doesn't answer what the cataclysm is etc (since I'm guessing there is absolutely no information on it). Its either on Wikipedia or a Final Fantasy wiki, or both. There needs to be more games in the Ivalice Alliance, perhaps one leading up to the events of the cataclysm. Sounds like everyone would like an explanation.
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Old 09/03/2010   #20
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Yeah, as I said I don't MIND the Ivalice Alliance as it is, just certain things about it can be frustrating. Just a little more slightly concrete tidbit now and then. (I know Montblanc is, but I mean with the old games)

To be honest, when I first learned that XII was in Ivalice and I saw screenshots of Belias, I thought maybe the main characters were going to be the Zodiac Braves

Speaking of which, where do you suppose the Espers in Tactics (the normal FF Pantheon) were during XII/came from in Tactics?
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Old 09/03/2010   #21
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While I don't mind the way they did Ivalice either, I would like them to eventually connect them and fill in major gaps eventually. I don't want the games to be a bunch of arbitrarily connected entries that SE never does anything with.
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Old 09/03/2010   #22
The Twilight Mexican
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What really needs to be filled in, though? We know the cause of the Cataclysm, even if not the exact circumstances; we know where the Lucavi came from and why they were imprisoned in stones, even if we haven't seen a depiction of those events; and we know magic/spirituality and the institutions using it for control over the common people gradually ceased to be the foundation of society, as in our own world, even if we don't know who or what exactly set it in motion.

What we have is a living history to a fictional world, with some major events depicted in painstaking detail while the significance of others is realized in how they influence later history. As with our own history, some things are known in vivid detail and others are not. Trying to fill in stuff just because it's there and can be is how we get shit like Sephiroth jumping into mako and Red XIII crying about being the last of his kind when a perfectly shaggable member of his species is two blocks away.
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Old 09/03/2010   #23
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Ariadne wrote: I kind of figured they were Zodiac Stones.
Did they have the Zodiac signs on them?

Also, I don't think the Compilation's deficiencies are BECAUSE its focus on one series of events. That is what most series do, after all. Ivalice's appraoch, if anything, simply hides any mistakes they probably would have made because nothing's directly related.
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Old 09/03/2010   #24
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It's one of those things where I prefer answers because I'm just a very curious person, but after a while when you've been waiting so long for them, anything they come up with will probably be disappointing [insert Lost example].
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Old 09/03/2010   #25
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I'm mostly curious about the specifics on when and how the races went missing. If it was 'Cataclysm, poof' I think I'd actually be dissapointed. I don't really want a game dedicated to this, but a faux history book would be nice.
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Old 09/03/2010   #26
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ForceStealer wrote: Did they have the Zodiac signs on them?
They have the espers's own individual symbols on them, and the point of the espers association with the Zodiac table is made in FFXII even if their stones didn't have a symbol.

Really, it's not hard to imagine the stones changing appearance at some point given the whole crystalization of spiritual energy concept. Could have happened when the espers were defeated after acquiring hosts the first time, or it could have been a move on their part to trick their first hosts into thinking they would become the Zodiac Braves.

Really, do we need to know? It's such a minor detail, and the glyphs are so obviously precursors to the Zodiac Stones.

Force wrote: Also, I don't think the Compilation's deficiencies are BECAUSE its focus on one series of events. That is what most series do, after all. Ivalice's appraoch, if anything, simply hides any mistakes they probably would have made because nothing's directly related.
Possibly, but where it detracts from the overall feel of the setting is in that it leaves the impression that nothing of significance really happens outside of this narrow window of history. Ivalice's timeline doesn't do that.
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Old 09/03/2010   #27
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This is mere speculation, but I'm picturing the Cataclysm being a new rebellion of the Espers and the following battle with their "Scion of Light" counterparts.

As for some races disappearing, weren't some of the Espers/Totemas linked to and summoned by a certain race? Maybe some races were wiped out after their Totem was killed as punishment for being linked to that being in the first place.
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Old 09/03/2010   #28
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Nice thoughts there D&D.


To add to what I was saying before, by the way, about every significant event apparently happening all at once in the cosmic sense of time: Seriously, Midgar gets trashed more in that ten-year period than the X-Men's mansion used to.
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Old 09/03/2010   #29
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We know the cause of the Cataclysm, even if not the exact circumstances;
and why they were imprisoned in stones
We don't know that, though. It's a good guess, but we don't know.

I'm not gonna be completely happy until I know the specifics about the Cataclysm, and some more detail and clearing up on Ivalice's geography would be nice to. Sometimes it's a kingdom, sometimes its a region, sometimes it's a world, yadda yadda. Clear that shit up.
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Old 09/03/2010   #30
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Ariadne wrote: and the glyphs are so obviously precursors to the Zodiac Stones.
Well, no they're not. I mean, sure, its a very reasonable assumption to make, but they are not "so obviously" so. The look nothing like the stones, they don't behave like them, they summon the Lucavi, but don't require a human host. A semi-casual player that played both Tactics back in the day and XII would probably never make the connection

And, no, I don't need to know, smartass, I was just asking.
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