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Old 06/13/2012   #346
Octo
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Yeah I get what youre saying, but then we're getting into what could/couldnt be construed and how is anyone meant to set boundaries or moderate that?. Obviously that doesnt apply in this instance if it wasn't reported as such.
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Old 06/13/2012   #347
Strangelove
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I think it would be problematic to objectively enforce a rule like that, since it is going to depend on personal interpretation and sensibility. I don't usually stick my neck into the nuts and bolts of warnings/infractions, but I don't think you could have a reasonable guideline written down that would perfectly cover any situation.

Another issue here was that people found the reporting of such content to be inconsistent, with it not being clear why people like Ryu seem not to be allowed to make certain jokes while others can do so without outrage. To expand on something I posted in the staff thread on this, I don't think that the fact people might not have reported these kinds of posts in the past devalues any present complaints. Even if someone reports something they themselves might have indulged in the past (certain types of humour or such), people can change. They might have come to see this type of thing as inappropriate, maybe regretting having taken part in it before. (This is getting a bit hypothetical, I'm not saying this applies to anyone in particular involved here.) It shouldn't matter that the same people haven't reported each and every post of this nature in the past. Maybe people have a different perspective now, maybe something changed in their life. Unless it becomes troublesome, I don't think scrutinising motives is a helpful approach. Plus, people have stated that they don't feel like reporting things will get anything accomplished, which could be another reason nothing was done in the past. If people don't have faith that the mods will take action, they aren't going to seek their help.

At the risk of dragging old matters back up, this mess has reminded me of the trouble that happened last year that ended with Ryu getting temporarily downgraded to a general mod. If I could copy and paste Mog's previous posts on this matter right now it would be perfect. It's another time where he has made a joke that could and was taken as being creepy and in poor taste, towards someone he didn't have a suitable relationship with to potentially get away with it. I don't believe it was done at all with the intention of causing anything like this, but to steal from Mog, it was a matter of poor judgement.

And it can feel like a case of 'nothing was learned or changed' in that it happened again, despite all of this stuff being brought out into the open last time.
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Old 06/13/2012   #348
Omega
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Ma'at wrote: There were two other similar instances of member offense that played into the discussion and handling of this current situation. One involving Omega and him receiving (a now reversed) infraction in the same thread
A few things.

1. It was in an entirely different thread.
2. My infraction has not been reversed.
3. Why would an infraction be reversed when someone is incredibly upset about the post in question? That is utterly perplexing.
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Old 06/13/2012   #349
Alex
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Would it be in bad taste to say that this thread has been raped?
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Old 06/13/2012   #350
Masamune
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There you go.

Enough of the witch-hunt already.
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Old 06/13/2012   #351
Omega
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Unless something has changed, you cannot add staff to your ignore list.
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Old 06/13/2012   #352
Alessa Gillespie
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Masamune wrote:

There you go.

Enough of the witch-hunt already.
i complained about being unable to add staff to ignore lists. UNLESS THIS IS NOW SOMETHING THAT CAN BE DONE? trust me i have tried it.
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Old 06/13/2012   #353
Octo
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Yeah Masa, you can't ignore mods/staff. Though I do actually think it would be a good idea in this instance.

Like I can see the logic of why normally on a forum you shouldn't be able to ignore mods, but here the only mods Ive ever seen to step into a thread and give people verbal warnings are Mako, Aaron and Road. I honestly don't remember ever seeing another mod do that, and that includes Ryu.

Hito wrote: Another issue here was that people found the reporting of such content to be inconsistent, with it not being clear why people like Ryu seem not to be allowed to make certain jokes while others can do so without outrage
I don't see it this way I'm afraid. The way it looks to me is that everyone can/does make jokes in poor taste, and yet its only Ryu who gets into trouble for it.

See where I told Yop to do an asphixiwank in his holiday thread, I barely know the guy and I was taking a bit of a risk saying such a thing. Yeah ok Yops humor is quite dark, but as has already been said, if you don't know the person very well that changes things.

I can think of numerous other instances where myself and others have gotten away with such stuff.

I'm not saying nobody is allowed to find something offensive, but we have a very loose forum here in terms of what people say and joke about, I don't think Ryu should be singled out as if its just him. So if we need to be more explicit and tighten up the rules then thats one thing, but it should be across the board. Even if thats to the detriment of the 'atmosphere' here.
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Old 06/13/2012   #354
Tifabelle
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To start off with, I have to agree completely with everything hito's said. Such a voice of reason that hito.

one person who reported it got an apology but not Rishi, which is another problem.
To add to this, the person who received the apology was also more or less told to PM people she was offended by instead of reporting posts. I found it to be a bit out of line for a staff member to discourage the use of the report system (despite what good intention he may have had). And one of the problems that was in the past regarding the moderation between two members was that mods didn't feel the need to step in to "private matters between two members". It comes across as a bit shady.

I mean, had Rishi spearheaded multiple attacks against Ryu in the past I could understand wariness at her reporting him now. But as far as I know she hasn't really done anything like that.
Furthermore, Rishi did publicly address Ryu's post with disdain (or at least expressed in a manner that his response to her "gave her pause"). It was painfully obvious that she found the joke to be in poor taste.He followed that up with another poor judgment in humor by saying that "no one was suggesting anything else". So his response to her reaction was to continue the joke.

Now I don't know the order of events. Was Ryu's first post reported before or after he made the second post?


Mako wrote: This is now the second time this thread has gotten hijacked by an unrelated issue than the topic of the OP.
Except this is an off-shoot of the general topic. The reasons people gave against support for the new forum - one of them being not being able to trust staff. We're not talking about the actual forum, but about how and why staff aren't trusted - which is in relation to the creation of the forum. This is a current example of such.

Lastly, insulting/mocking members. I have no idea what's been told or said, but I find it interesting that they would go the route of painting us as "The Man Show" back behind closed doors and not giving any fucks regarding the issues we handle. We get into very long t;dr debates regarding the reports we have come across our laps and sometimes things get heated between all of us. Most of us have known each other for a long time, and since we're in the comfort, privacy and (now unjustly) assumed confidentiality of each other's company, we drop the formality and speak casually, because we assume our fellow staffers will know what we mean, and if it really becomes an issue. They'll kindly tap us on the shoulder and tell us so.
No one expects their not to be casual discussion. No one expects you guys to have on suit and ties in the staff section. But there is a certain decorum that is expected - namely not shit-talking members in a place they can't see. And excuse me for saying, but I do believe you were quoted in this exact thread (although your name wasn't put to it) so you may want to examine that before speaking on the subject. Also a former staff member (Dacon) also said in this very thread that staff do say inappropriate things in the staff thread about members. His post was ignored by everyone, including me, but his point remains. That doesn't mean that's all that is done in staff section, but the fact is that it does take place.

Hell, Tennyo had to slap me and get me in line in regards to how I was talking about this, and I apologized and appreciated it.
Tennyo had suspicions that the staff thread was being leaked. I couldn't say if that was her motivation behind saying something to you, but I just thought I'd throw that out there.


Now as far as how this was handled by mods, here's my two cents for whatever they're worth. When Omega made his offending post in the What Makes Your Day Thread, it was reported by I believe at least two members, one of them being Rishi. He was infracted for this post in a fairly timely manner. Ok, no problem. Ryu makes his joke in the Forever Alone thread and it was reported by at least two members, one of them being Rishi. There has been a long drawn out discussion and investigation into the matter. And my question is why? Why was Ryu not infracted in the same manner that Omega was? And how come Ryu was given an opportunity to take a poll in the IRC and PM one of the reporters to apologize? As far as I know, Omega was not given such an opportunity. It was a joke of similar, and imo, far more aggregious nature. So the fact that it is given more consideration than Omega's post is sort of baffling to me. Only after Ryu's post was reported did staff begin to question their handling of Omega's post. Was it because Ryu is a staff member? Was it because (being a staff member) he could voice his thoughts on the report in the staff thread? Was it because it was Rishi who made the report?

This is all an aside to any distasteful or inappropriate things that might have been said in the staff thread.

What is the status on this btw? Has Ryu been infracted?

Masa wrote: Enough of the witch-hunt already.
(Aside from the fact that staff can't be ignored.) This is exactly the sort of thing we discussed previously. This is not a witch-hunt. And exactly the sort of attitude exhibited by staff in the past that has made people feel like they can't trust them. This is not to be dismissed as a "witch-hunt" because it's not and it's also about a larger issue at hand.

See my post above. I have nothing against Ryu personally and no bad history with him. This discussion is not just about Ryu's poor taste in humor, but also about the moderation team and their handling of it.
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Old 06/13/2012   #355
Octo
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Arya Stark wrote: T
Furthermore, Rishi did publicly address Ryu's post with disdain (or at least expressed in a manner that his response to her "gave her pause"). It was painfully obvious that she found the joke to be in poor taste.He followed that up with another poor judgment in humor by saying that "no one was suggesting anything else". So his response to her reaction was to continue the joke.
I have to disagree with this, her first post was 'uh..' which is not exactly explicit in saying 'I am offended by this' is it? It could mean she found it stupid or silly or whatever.

Again I've seen instances where people might similarly respond to a post like that (Rishi's) and its taken in a jokey manner, usually followed up with a macro of some sort.


EDIT: Can someone link to Omegas infracted post?
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Old 06/13/2012   #356
Tifabelle
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Someone named Octo wrote: I don't see it this way I'm afraid. The way it looks to me is that everyone can/does make jokes in poor taste, and yet its only Ryu who gets into trouble for it.

I'm not saying nobody is allowed to find something offensive, but we have a very loose forum here in terms of what people say and joke about, I don't think Ryu should be singled out as if its just him. So if we need to be more explicit and tighten up the rules then thats one thing, but it should be across the board. Even if thats to the detriment of the 'atmosphere' here.
I don't know where this perception of Ryu being singled out is coming from. Omega was reported and infracted for the very same manner of post.
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Old 06/13/2012   #357
Tifabelle
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Someone named Octo wrote: I have to disagree with this, her first post was 'uh..' which is not exactly explicit in saying 'I am offended by this' is it?

Again I've seen instances where people might similarly respond to a post like that and its taken in a jokey manner.
Her post was not explicit in its wording, but quite clear in its meaning. Especially given the history between these two (which even Ryu stated as a reason for not PMing Rishi after her report). And after Ryu made his second joke, she replied with "stop". So he acknowledges that it's pointless to attempt to make amends with her, but doesn't realize that he shouldn't make these jokes toward her in the first place?


EDIT: Omega's post- http://thelifestream.net/forums/show...postcount=4511
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Old 06/13/2012   #358
Zee
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I have to disagree with this, her first post was 'uh..' which is not exactly explicit in saying 'I am offended by this' is it?
It was a clear sign that she was uncomfortable.

See where I told Yop to do an asphixiwank in his holiday thread, I barely know the guy and I was taking a bit of a risk saying such a thing. Yeah ok Yops humor is quite dark, but as has already been said, if you don't know the person very well that changes things.

I can think of numerous other instances where myself and others have gotten away with such stuff.
That doesn't really apply to this situation because you were both okay with it. This is a situation where one party was clearly not okay with it and has voiced this before. If you know the person you're trying to joke with isn't very fond of you and also has called you out on making inappropriate comments before, why would you continue to do it?

edit: damn you belle stop making excellent posts before i can reply
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Old 06/13/2012   #359
Octo
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Well now I'm totally confused.

And I'm sorry, I'm unaware of any past history between Rishi and Ryu but I still think 'uh..' is not a clear sign of anything.

Omegas post was 2 days prior. But I don't think it's the same thing at all, even if it was considered 'poor taste' so I don't really know why it was brought up in this thread.

EDIT: Yeah, Yop was ok with it, but he might not have been, and he would have been entitled to take offense even if I thought it was a joke.

Obviously things are too loose around here, so we've either got to tighten up the rules or resort to the ignore function.

And as an aside: a more consistent approach towards moderation is needed, but this had been said over 9000+ times.
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Last edited by Octo; 06/13/2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 06/13/2012   #360
Zee
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Someone named Octo wrote: Well now I'm totally confused.
how are you confused

ryu made a joke in poor taste towards a person he's not friends with who said before his comments were creepy in nature and he should not have done this thing there is that good
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