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Old 07/14/2018   #31
Addy Carver
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I've no issue with Lex formally becoming admin since he already is (pretty much). The poll will probably be a landslide but I agree it should be done.

Everything seems fine and logical but with regard to the content creation section, why don't we utilise the 121 feedback section for that? I know permissions and sorting them are a pain but all the content staff could have access and that way it gives everyone a direct private portal to the team without compromising privacy. That way people get to pitch in still, the only catch is with it being a private audience is that ideas can't be snowballed around the member base.
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Old 07/14/2018   #32
JechtShotMK9
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I think that if Lex wants to be a real Admin, he needs to walk through the Ring of Fire atop Mount Wannahockaloogie.

Other than that, ditto everything else said here. I like the idea of content creation stuff being private till it's done, though.
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Old 07/14/2018   #33
Cthulhu
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Literally Who? wrote: @yopy.

[...]
Re: ACF and shit, I have to admit that FFOF and later TLS probably would not have existed if it wasn't for a clique mentality over there. However, there was also a lot of hostility, and in my view of what happened there, the whole thing shut down in the end because there was a huge disconnect between the people calling the shots and the members. Long story short, I'd like to prevent that.

[QUOTE=InterfaceLeader;788893]
Cthulhu wrote: This might be a controversial suggestion, and I am a n00b so please feel free to reject out of hand. Also this is not about any individual people because I don't actually know any of you that well, and so far you all seem like ~super nice!~ people. And did not experience any of this drama you speak of.

But imo, I think the clique danger is not so much about (or not *just* about) needing a really robust initial voting-in process, but about having a balance of power. Rather than having power concentrated in a limited number of hands (especially if those limited number are all close friends).

It's the 'who polices the police' question; who do you go to if you have an issue with an admin, that has power to sort it out?

My general view is that power/responsibility is better when it's diffuse rather than concentrated (and you also reduce risk, e.g. if you have one person who knows how to do something and then they disappear, what happens?)

I like the idea of 'shadow admins', whose job it is to ensure the actual admins do their job well and who are open to listening to concerns/complaints about that admin & that person can also act as a back-up?

I also think you should make Lex a honorary temporary admin to facilitate the move to the new forums asap, and then vote on whether to make it permanent ON the new forums. Because, you know, this stuff takes time to do properly, and at some point the current forum will just get hacked.


I will not be offended if you tell me all my ideas are shit.
ALL YOUR IDEAS ARE SHactually no, I see where you're coming from, and your idea does have merit, however at the same time I personally don't feel like there's an imbalance of power or like, a lack of trust towards the staff maybe? I mean (and correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think there's policies or rules being introduced or changed that are at odds with what most people agree with.

Also he technically already is a honorary admin type, he's needed it to set up the new forums and I'll give him teh powerz anyway to help me out once we're going ahead with the move.

Addy Carver wrote: Everything seems fine and logical but with regard to the content creation section, why don't we utilise the 121 feedback section for that? I know permissions and sorting them are a pain but all the content staff could have access and that way it gives everyone a direct private portal to the team without compromising privacy. That way people get to pitch in still, the only catch is with it being a private audience is that ideas can't be snowballed around the member base.
Yeah I see what you mean, the permissions themselves aren't terribly complicated, but I know from the feedback section you mention that the permissions won't transfer over properly - we'll have to check if Xf supports the "only the thread starter and people in group x, y and z can see and post in this thread first". I don't actually know how communication for that type of content often goes though, Lex & co can probably pitch in there.

JechtShotMK9 wrote: I think that if Lex wants to be a real Admin, he needs to walk through the Ring of Fire atop Mount Wannahockaloogie.
I veto in favor of this.
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Old 07/14/2018   #34
Fangu
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Opinions and shit ~

Admins:
Ideally I'm all for people being voted into the admin position (or at least there being some poll of some kind, encouraging members to voice any concern in their private feedback section or something if they don't want to use a public voting thread) - same with anyone receiving SQL access. The main reason for this that anyone with Admin or SQL access basically has access to read everyone's PM's. (SQL access requires a certain knowledge of SQL, but not much.) When I was working on the old front page, I received the copy of the database to work on fetching comments from specific threads to articles on the front page (this was never finished mostly due to lack of BB code support). iirc it was discussed in a public thread and everyone was fine with it, but it was never presented as 'hey guys now Fangu can actually query PM's from the PM table' (as far as I can remember, at least!) so I'm not sure everyone knew what it meant I was given those rights. Of course, trust is important and I would never violate that trust, but seeing as this is what hugely separates Admins from Smods (in my opinion), it's important that everyone is comfortable with whoever receives these rights.
I'm not uncomfortable with Lex having these rights, I'm pretty sure he's aware that PM's are to be looked into only for very very serious matters, this has rarely happened iirc and the member in question was warned/ notified it was done, and I'm guessing that's still the case, that whenever PM's are read/ brought out, it's for a specific purpose for solving specific conflicts/ problems and the member in question will be notified whenever someone from staff reads them
So, no extra poll needed nao in the case of Lex imo.

Donator colours:
iirc the whole donator colour thing happened when people were still into the whole group thing, and (light spirited) wanted to be part of certain teams. My main reason for being team blue was that I wanted a more neutral colour for my username in Thanks. Xf doesn't have thanks, but Likes, right? Which makes it even less of a deal for me. I'd say we skip the whole Donator colour thing entirely
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2012
Member of the Year, Best Site Contributor (2nd), Best Newcomer, Hottest Female, Bounciest Boobies (3rd), Member You’d Most Like to Meet in Real Life, Most Improved (3rd), Best Drunk/Stoner, “Needs to Spend Less Time on TLS” Award (3rd), Best Ship (1st, Avengu) (3rd, Sprexanghululock), Most Likely to Survive the Zombie Apocalypse (3rd), Most Likely to Save the World, Most Suited to Be on Cosmos’ Side (2nd)

2013
TLS Lifetime Achievement Award (3rd), Best Site Contributor (3rd), Hottest Female, Biggest Non-FF Geek (3rd), Most in Need of Daylight (2nd), Member You'd Most Like to Meet in Real Life, Member You'd Most Like to Bone (2nd), Horniest Member (2nd), Best Drunk/Stoner (3rd), The TLS Literature Prize, Most Talented (Art, Writing, Music, Etc.) (3rd), Best Ass (3rd), Most Fervent TLSer, Most Likely to Go the Extra Mile (3rd)

2014
Member of the Year (2nd), Best Site Contributor (3rd), Hottest Female (2nd), Nicest Smile, Member You'd Most Like to Meet in Real Life, Member You'd Most Like to Bone (2nd), The Lifestream Literature Prize, Best Ass (2nd), Sexiest Voice, Best Ship/TLS OTP (3rd, Sprexanghululock), Most Fervent TLSer (3rd), Most Likely to Make the Best-Tasting Food (2nd), Most Likely to Go the Extra Mile (2nd)

2015
Member you'd most like to bone (2nd), Best Drunk/Stoner (3rd), Hottest female (3rd), Sexiest voice (3rd)

2016
Best Drunk (2nd), Most Likely To Suggest An Award They'll Never Win
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Old 07/14/2018   #35
Literally Who?
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Re: ACF and shit, I have to admit that FFOF and later TLS probably would not have existed if it wasn't for a clique mentality over there. However, there was also a lot of hostility, and in my view of what happened there, the whole thing shut down in the end because there was a huge disconnect between the people calling the shots and the members. Long story short, I'd like to prevent that.

Oh yeah absolutely. I think as long as you don't admin Tethar Atrum, SY's friend who had a kid named Kadaj or that one guy who ended up being worse than Tethar out of sheer spite and contempt for the community we might be on the right track still lol

Good god, ACF wtf.

@Ergo.

It means Advent Children Forums. It's where a good chunk of us met and kind of like the grandpappy of this community. It was a really big forum, but unfortunately it was also a really bad forum lol. The last few years there basically everyone argued, there were 5 hidden sections called "Teams" , one of which was called "staff" and if you were on opposite teams you just constantly bitched at each other and then frequently teamed up to bitch at staff. Every day, over any little thing for years. That's not to say staff didn't do bitch worthy stuff either though, but oof in retrospect I'm honestly really surprised the staff/admins didn't just permanently ban the entire team I was on.


FWIW I do kinda think we started breaking the Clique style back then to degree. At some point my team and another one called Fated Children realized it wasn't actually against the rules to join more than one team, and even though we initially basically merged for the "lulz" and to have a post bit that listed multiple teams it did really start breaking down walls especially since Fated Children was kind of like a super try hard "we love final fantasy" team, where as SO was "baby just found 4chan" type of team where we were edgy and didnt "like" Final Fantasy and just wanted to be in the spam section all day.

There were even old guard in the team like The Doctor who came back after a hiatus and lost their shit seeing FC members in SO haha, but yeah I think stuff like that and also teaming up on FFoF during ACF down time to form our "plans" lol, really helped to start breaking that really toxic mentality.

ACF is essentially the root cause for our concern on cliques forming, hell even thanks based issues (yes ACF had that too!) and other basically community breaking issues that ultimately make the place not so friendly with the hallmark of ACF staff being that they handled it all phenomenally bad if they even bothered to address it.

We've had a few close missteps here and unfortunately, but thankfully they were eventually dealt with. None the less concerns about never becoming something like that are very valid.

I think theres still an Encyclopedia Dramatica page about ACF if anyone wants to see how bad it is. It's also worth mentioning that incredibly long page also only covers like 6 months to a years worth of like 5 years of relentless drama.

@Mage,

Are you suggesting instead of a public content creation section we just use private feedback, or suggesting we use it in addition to a new semi public/private content creation section?


Also that private feedback section massively broke in the move to XF lol. Will flattening out the permissions and stuff fix it or will there need to be code black magic stuff to get it going?

Last edited by Literally Who?; 07/14/2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 07/14/2018   #36
Cthulhu
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Literally Who? wrote: Also that private feedback section massively broke in the move to XF lol. Will flattening out the permissions and stuff fix it or will there need to be code black magic stuff to get it going?
I'll have to look into it, I'm pretty sure it's a matter of just redoing the permissions and it's just the migration that didn't work quite right for that. Honestly I feel that and the fact every old member got their posts marked as spam were the only snags in this whole thing from a technical POV.
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Old 07/14/2018   #37
X-SOLDIER
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Cthulhu wrote:
Literally Who? wrote: Also that private feedback section massively broke in the move to XF lol. Will flattening out the permissions and stuff fix it or will there need to be code black magic stuff to get it going?
I'll have to look into it, I'm pretty sure it's a matter of just redoing the permissions and it's just the migration that didn't work quite right for that. Honestly I feel that and the fact every old member got their posts marked as spam were the only snags in this whole thing from a technical POV.
I think that there was probably a relatively simple fuck-up on that end.

When we first tested it, all the general users had access to ALL THE THINGS there, but my Admin account (that otherwise had permissions to literally everything else) couldn't see a damn thing in there at all. Then, when I just created my own thread – I could only ever see my own thread, which is how it ought to function for standard users... just backwards.

As such, it seems like there's probably an elegant way to fix whatever permission fucked that up, and get it back to working the same way it does here with very little headache.





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Old 07/15/2018   #38
Flare
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Trying to keep up with this thread, phew

On topic of Lex being admin, I'm behind this motion, I think he's done a good job of it as long as I've been here and I don't mind him continuing with it. I'm also fine with an official voting thread as well, whatever we wanna do.

I don't think we need to keep that many user ranks, just maybe a few instead of 9? One for newbies, one for full members, one for Great Old Ones? Idk Slimming that list down would be lovely though I think. Also like the idea of keeping them invisible, it's never been a big deal to me.

With staff roles, agree with dropping Smods and making it just Moderators.

Site roles: If you couldn't tell I'm all about keeping things more simple and clean (cue music), so yay to flattening them down. I quite like the idea of making them as symbols that you can mouse over to see what they are. That sounds cool!

As for the creative content creation(?) discussion, I think Gabe raises a lot of valid points, but I also think it'd be awesome to have a semi-public thread (for full members here) to post in and bring up ideas an shit, also I doubt we need every one of our creative works to be private until release? A few smaller/more casual things could probably be in the open? Idk I'm a bit absent minded and feel like I'm not contributing much here (on this post in general ) but uh, there you have it!
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Old 07/15/2018   #39
Cthulhu
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9? Try 37, , amongst which 8 donator alternatives, 12 site-related groups, and (just) four banned or restricted usergroups . I think after the move we'll probably have about half a dozen primary usergroups - unregistered, registered, banned, moderators, admins, donators, etc. I hope we can set donators as like a 'status' instead of a primary usergroup, but that depends on what Xf supports, we do set higher limits for e.g. PM inbox and such for donators (although TBF I don't think those benefits would be enticing enough for donators, plus we're small enough and the server big enough that we don't need to put strict limits on things like that).

Anyway as has been said before (@X), we'll probably just have to redo all permissions when we move, and if we can simplify the groups on here already that'll save a bit of time. Just a bit mind you, I don't mind doing it after the move.

Speaking of which (and this is probably more relevant to the other thread), we should probably clean up the user database, remove the thousands (?) of spambot accounts we have - insofar as we can find them. I think there's probably plenty of (spambot) accounts with 0 posts too. I'd be hesitant to just purge all 0-post users though. They don't do any harm I think, they just pad the stats a bit.
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Old 07/15/2018   #40
Lex
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Everyone decides to get active on these discussions when I'm not around

I'll give a full read and respond to some stuff when I get time (likely tomorrow), for now I've skim-read the stuff that's here and I just want to say @Fangu I don't know/ think I have access to the SQL database - if I do I've never used it. I know there's a "mySQL" button in the admin control panel but I've never felt the need to click on it

@Yop

With regards of Lex for admin. Full disclosure, in many ways he's become an administrator (e.g. given those rights) through the back door, underhanded like. I can imagine this would cause a huge backlash, and I should've stepped in and done something about / with it a long time ago.
I get how you've explained this here but the way you've described it sounds super sinister so I just wanted to clear it up a bit for everyone lol. I needed the technical functions to do certain things, but in terms of the forum hierarchy I was never an admin. I've legitimately only ever used "admin powers" (because btw the backend looks the same to both mods and admin, the only thing with admin is you have a few more menus) to deal with usergroups afaik.

Also I've always been public about having these powers so I don't think "underhanded" is the right term to use. Not having a go but there are a few turns of phrases you've used in recent posts that are a little too cynical and not representative of stuff that's actually happened, but I'll get to responding to those when I have time (in a chill way, I'm not pissed or anything)

While I do feel he's got the support and trust of most people (including myself), I think we need to go through an official process to formalize it.

Over the past ten years, I don't remember we've ever had a process of appointing a new administrator, so this is kinda new. What I'm suggesting is a simple poll, a "yea / nay" one, however it can't be a simple democracy - first off, it needs to be a majority vote, so more like at least 2/3rds of votes instead of 51%. Second, there has to be a means of expressing serious issues in a trusted fashion, which each have to be scrutinized and if there's a big enough issue, the whole thing will have to be called off.

TL;DR we can't just admin people through the back door or by a handful of people in a thread verbally going "lex for admin". I'd like some feedback from you guys about the process.
I agree there should be some sort of formal process, but you're forgetting that Tres was voted in as admin so we did have a process for that. I can't actually remember how we did that though, and sorry if someone's already brought this up (I've only skim-read the posts prior). I did also mention this to you when we were talking about this situation last week, so maybe we could look at how Tres was voted in and do something similar/ an updated version of that.

@Lex, what's that about "legacy donator"? Is that with regards to newer donation platforms?
No, I'm talking about having a specific icon on the new board for people who have "donator" titles here, because we're flattening them all. There could be a new/ separate one for any future donation services.
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Old 07/15/2018   #41
The Twilight Mexican
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Ironically, I was voted to become admin at the same time -- and by the same process -- you became a mod, Lex:

https://thelifestream.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14682



But yeah, it's time this admin thing with you became official. A simple poll should suffice.
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Old 07/15/2018   #42
CrashOuch
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I'm ready to vote Lex in as soon as there's a poll, whether that's before or after we move to Xf or whatever.
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Old 07/15/2018   #43
lithiumkatana17
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Lex for admin--my full support. I've never had a reason to not trust Lex in his abilities to manage TLS on any front.

As far as a not public subsection for creative content to be discussed without fear of it being stolen--wholeheartedly in support of this.
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Old 07/15/2018   #44
Strangelove
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Full disclosure, in many ways he's become an administrator (e.g. given those rights) through the back door, underhanded like.
i, for one, welcome our new dark emperor
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Old 07/16/2018   #45
Cthulhu
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Yeah well I don't remember how everything happened and shit anymore either, .

er, I can open up a poll thing any time, just say fhtagn.
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