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Old 07/16/2018   #46
Ergo
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Fhtnahgn
Foruoken
Hadouken?
Frobaken!
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Old 07/16/2018   #47
Cthulhu
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Ergo wrote: Fhtnahgn
Foruoken
Hadouken?
Frobaken!
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
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Old 07/16/2018   #48
Ergo
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Cthulhu wrote:
Ergo wrote: Fhtnahgn
Foruoken
Hadouken?
Frobaken!
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
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Old 07/16/2018   #49
Lex
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Cthulhu wrote: Yeah well I don't remember how everything happened and shit anymore either, .

er, I can open up a poll thing any time, just say fhtagn.
I say go for it, no time like the present . Should also point out people are free to PM other staff with votes or whatever incase people want to keep stuff private? idk

I'm working on responding to some stuff that's been put in here re: permissions and stuff, that'll come soon. I've had a messy weekend, sorry for the delay everybody
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Old 07/16/2018   #50
Lex
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OK please try to bear with me while I type this up because there are a bunch of long posts so I'm going to try to catch as much of it as possible in this response.

Crash wrote: Especially cos if there's gonna be more people contributing to content on the front page (?) all that stuff is gonna be more spread out over more people anyway so having a thousand titles would be nonsense then anyway, innit? Also, like, it's important to clearly state who has some form of mod permissions, right, so if someone tells you off, you know how seriously to take it? And stuff like that? I feel like any change that makes it more clear who's in charge is a good idea cos honestly I'm still figuring it out haha, so I assume (hope ) there's at least one other idiot out there who'd take a while to figure it out too.
My idea for XF is for people to literally just have their username, avatar, AKA (under their username like a title) and icons to represent their roles. We could do a cookie monster icon for Great Old One, or something similar for other user ladders. We're gonna need a lot of icons and then we're gonna have to write custom CSS to implement it, but it shouldn't be too difficult to achieve.

If we think forum staff visibility is super important for contacting purposes, or that the icons don't represent people as "people you can PM problems with the board to", XF has another feature which lists someone as a staff member:



But I think if we make the icons stand out for each individual role we won't have to enable this "staff member" tickbox and then we're closer to achieving what we've always wanted to be, blurred lines between members and staff rather than there being features that could lead to feeling more divided. I know we all make a big effort to avoid this though.

Gabe wrote: this really long post
Re: content creator section - I still advocate for a hybrid section. I think we should go into detailed discussions about what should and shouldn't be public, so as other people have mentioned suggestions/ discussion threads should be public, and sensitive content will be kept private. Content creators will have an icon for that role with permissions that give access to the "sensitive" threads, and given the discussion in here we could also have a "contributor" badge that gives trusted members access aswell if they contribute content or one of their ideas is used to make a project?

Obviously it's incredibly important - I can't stress this enough - that we don't fall into the trap of having a "closed club" where cliques can form, which is why I'm fairly strict about keeping discussions office-like or professional in these kinds of private channels. As long as everyone adheres to that I don't see an issue, it's how we operate at the moment.

The fact is we have legitimate reasons to keep certain content creation stuff private, but I do think as much of it as possible should be public. The pods and stuff are a good example, there's no real reason to keep the planning of those private.

For the record when I say "public" I mean "viewable by general members of the board". I'd still want the public stuff to be hidden to the general public that aren't logged in.

The socialblade stuff is awesome <3

B wrote: 2. Icons/badges to replace some user titles sound great, though from an aesthetic perspective I personally think it wouldn't be messy to display major staff titles (eg. Community Manager/the other ones in cyan, etc) under their usernames, just so they can be immediately recognisable as trusted members without hovering over badges.

3. I might be in the minority here, but I'd like to have the AKA field impermanent and customisable like the existing one, just with a character limit. Playing around a bit with the AKA field is part of the fun for me
2. We can take a look at that post-move, I recognise that titles such as community manager are important but I feel like as long as we have something recognisable the actual title shouldn't be that important.

3. So I'm against this idea purely because the idea behind the new AKA field is for everyone to have one name they go by. I'll use Carlie as an example because she's been a serial name changer since the dawn of time but idk if her forum name has ever been "Carlie" (it might have been actually, I'm not sure). So rather than an "AKA field" it'll be a subtitle centered right underneath the username. Users will be able to change it if they really really want to, but the idea is to have one name everyone goes by. It's been a complaint since the beginning of time here that people changing their names makes it hard for others to recognise them, and even with the AKA field that can be difficult. The new idea should solve that issue. I don't really see a reason for folks to list every single username they've ever had if they pick and stick with a solid AKA, since that's something we've historically had problems with (you know who you are ). For example B if this was 5-6 years ago a staff member would probably have given you shit for having stuff in your AKA field that isn't relevant, but I'm glad that kind of arbitrary thing isn't a concern anymore (i.e. you're not doing any damage so nobody cares).

Yop wrote: I don't like the idea or even the suggestion that people need to have a certain role / title to be able to contribute though; we've probably been over this, but even the slightest suggestion that you can't help out if you're not in the "in group" needs to be nipped in the bud. I know Lex is doing a much better job at that than I have, and he's doing a great job along with the contributors though.

Anyway er, on that note, it's a complicated one. I'd like to give contributors appreciation for their work, whether they publish ten posts a week or have done something only once. The badge idea might work there. Anyway you have contributors on the one hand, and permissions and people with publish rights on the other. On the forums, I'd keep it down to having idk, administrators and editors? On the front page there's a user group called "Authors", which IIRC are people that can create and publish posts, but not administer the site. I think we can have people that have the Author role on the front page but not a formal role with extra permissions on the forums.
I think my responses above address all of this, but just to explain again people who contribute content (i.e. if they're authors or editors or whatever on the front page) would have the Content Creator icon, and the associated permissions would let them see the relevant threads in the subsections that contain sensitive shit like links to the site graphics and vids being worked on etc. Another icon can be made for "Content Contributor" giving people access to these sections if they're trusted and have contributed substantially in some way i.e. an idea they've had has been used for a project.

I think we need a simple set of usergroups and a pinned post or page somewhere that lists who does what, and maybe indicate whether they've got admin or moderator rights.
I agree but for now before the move I literally just want us to have Admin - Mod - Member, then we can set up usergroups post move. What do you think? As far as I know the only other thing that'll be essential to recreate that we currently have is probably Community Manager, the rest of the titles are arbitrary.

@Lex, what's that about "legacy donator"? Is that with regards to newer donation platforms?
As I said 2 (I think) posts ago, this would be a special icon for all the people who have Donator status now, because we're changing the way people can donate so there could be a separate "Patron" icon or something. We probably also need to discuss what's to become of the donator section in terms of permissions.

InterfaceLeader wrote: post This might be a controversial suggestion, and I am a n00b so please feel free to reject out of hand. Also this is not about any individual people because I don't actually know any of you that well, and so far you all seem like ~super nice!~ people. And did not experience any of this drama you speak of.

But imo, I think the clique danger is not so much about (or not *just* about) needing a really robust initial voting-in process, but about having a balance of power. Rather than having power concentrated in a limited number of hands (especially if those limited number are all close friends).

It's the 'who polices the police' question; who do you go to if you have an issue with an admin, that has power to sort it out?

My general view is that power/responsibility is better when it's diffuse rather than concentrated (and you also reduce risk, e.g. if you have one person who knows how to do something and then they disappear, what happens?)

I like the idea of 'shadow admins', whose job it is to ensure the actual admins do their job well and who are open to listening to concerns/complaints about that admin & that person can also act as a back-up?

I also think you should make Lex a honorary temporary admin to facilitate the move to the new forums asap, and then vote on whether to make it permanent ON the new forums. Because, you know, this stuff takes time to do properly, and at some point the current forum will just get hacked.


I will not be offended if you tell me all my ideas are shit.
I don't think there's anything controversial about this suggestion, what I do think is a good idea is to set in stone some kind of periodic staff review (like once every 6 months or something) where all the members can give feedback and we can remove titles etc. for people who aren't active. This is something I've actually brought up a few times in the staff section but it hasn't really moved anywhere because I don't want to be a sole person going around destaffing people.

But I also think the way people are voted in as forum staff addresses the issue of a potential clique on staff, because people tend to vote for those who are more balanced and can mediate and/ or the people who are part of their own friend groups (so if there were two separate cliques each clique would have a member that was on staff, thereby addressing that issue). This is aided by the fact that we usually don't just open up one post at a time, but two. From that angle I don't really support the shadow admin idea because how do you know the shadow admin doesn't have some bias themselves? Etc. It's better for us all to operate openly.

Mage wrote: Everything seems fine and logical but with regard to the content creation section, why don't we utilise the 121 feedback section for that? I know permissions and sorting them are a pain but all the content staff could have access and that way it gives everyone a direct private portal to the team without compromising privacy. That way people get to pitch in still, the only catch is with it being a private audience is that ideas can't be snowballed around the member base.
Site staff actually don't have access to the private feedback forum - they did originally, but it was removed because it's supposed to be more of a mod thing since it's for people to air concerns about the board or members to forum staff.

I actually like the idea of it though - we could make the new suggestion threads that way, where the member + content contributors can see it but the rest of the members can't. Definitely something to think about.

Another aspect is that the Private Feedback Forum broke in the transfer, I had to delete it to stop people testing the new board from being able to see the private threads. It essentially ended up giving inverse permissions, so X for example couldn't see any threads but a regular member could see them all. That's the most major thing that needs to be fixed after the transfer but before the forum goes live for general use.

Fangu wrote: iirc the whole donator colour thing happened when people were still into the whole group thing, and (light spirited) wanted to be part of certain teams. My main reason for being team blue was that I wanted a more neutral colour for my username in Thanks. Xf doesn't have thanks, but Likes, right? Which makes it even less of a deal for me. I'd say we skip the whole Donator colour thing entirely
I'm down for this aswell, just a donator icon or legacy donator icon for all rather than the colours. We can allow people to change their username colour since we'll be moving away from titles and staff's usernames appearing differently aswell, but we can gauge how people feel about this before moving ahead with it.

JUST PUTTING IN A QUOTE BOX TO SEPARATE OUT THE REST OF MY POAST LOL
The biggest concern we actually have is the user ladder (number of posts giving permissions). I'll need to see if there's a plugin Yop can use to import our user ladder - that would solve our permissions problem. It's also possible it just broke and didn't import correctly.

But the vast majority of our issues are things we're going to have to fix and improve over time following the move, so now that we're getting deep into the discussion of flattening the roles (which is what this thread was made for) does anyone have concerns/ suggestions re: that? As it stands and as Yop has said, we want to flatten them all to make them as simple as possible, which will make the move far easier. So by the time we're done prior to the move it'll be Admin - Mod - Member (and banned users obvs), then immediately after the move we can implement the new ones as required (like Content Creator, Community Manager).

If we're going with my icon idea we'll need people to create said icons. Anybody up for that? I can attempt to draw a mockup when we've got a couple of icons going for how it'll look, then we can get to work on the CSS aswell. I'll also need to look at the CSS for the AKA subtitle.

Objections? Questions? Suggestions?
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Old 07/16/2018   #51
CrashOuch
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I think doing Admin - Mod - Member before the move and then adding some extra shits after we go if we need to sounds like a good plan I'm chill with that!
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Old 07/16/2018   #52
Flare
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I'm interested in helping with the icon creations idea, although I'm worried my art program (now a free thing, it ain't no photoshop, for example) might not handle the small sizes very well. Also I can be slow but hopefully my workload is lessening this week so Just trying to get more motivation back.
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Old 07/16/2018   #53
Lex
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Any work on those is appreciated but one of the things I mentioned before is that it'd be cool if we could keep them VII themed - I'm not sure how to do that and still have them represent what they're supposed to represent, though that's what the text on hover feature is supposed to achieve I guess.

If there were just 5 we could just do different coloured materia orbs but the way I see it we have:

Admin
Mod
Donator
Community Manager
Staff Emeritus?
Content Creator
Contributor

And we might need others. I guess we could make the forum staff themed differently, like maybe a Buster Sword icon for Admin and something similar for mods, whereas the rest could be the different materia orbs (Green, Blue, Red, Yellow, Purple).
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Old 07/17/2018   #54
X-SOLDIER
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Something like the Shinra diamond logo for Admins, the SOLDIER symbol for mods, AC wolf-thing for Donators, etc. seems like we could mine FFVII for semi-relevant things that we could still represent as little icons that, even if not totally clear visually, would fit the theme, etc. in the way you're talking about (since I'd argue that different colour of materia alone wouldn't be a sufficiently clear indication of what's what – since colourblindness and such would make those difficult to quickly distinguish).





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Old 07/17/2018   #55
Addy Carver
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Could do a nod to Kupocon and have chocobos, moogles, cactuars, tonberries and so forth.
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Old 07/17/2018   #56
Literally Who?
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I was just thinking different colored materia for the different roles


Though I guess someone with a bunch of roles or something might have their postbit end up looking like the infinity gauntlet or something lol.
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Old 07/17/2018   #57
BforBrigitta
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I'd love to chip in to make some brand new, shimmering shiny icons too.

Lex wrote:
B wrote: 3. I might be in the minority here, but I'd like to have the AKA field impermanent and customisable like the existing one, just with a character limit. Playing around a bit with the AKA field is part of the fun for me
3. So I'm against this idea purely because the idea behind the new AKA field is for everyone to have one name they go by. I'll use Carlie as an example because she's been a serial name changer since the dawn of time but idk if her forum name has ever been "Carlie" (it might have been actually, I'm not sure). So rather than an "AKA field" it'll be a subtitle centered right underneath the username. Users will be able to change it if they really really want to, but the idea is to have one name everyone goes by. It's been a complaint since the beginning of time here that people changing their names makes it hard for others to recognise them, and even with the AKA field that can be difficult. The new idea should solve that issue. I don't really see a reason for folks to list every single username they've ever had if they pick and stick with a solid AKA, since that's something we've historically had problems with (you know who you are ). For example B if this was 5-6 years ago a staff member would probably have given you shit for having stuff in your AKA field that isn't relevant, but I'm glad that kind of arbitrary thing isn't a concern anymore (i.e. you're not doing any damage so nobody cares).
No worries and totally understandable! I suppose I don't mind relinquishing some dumb inside joke rights

Last edited by BforBrigitta; 07/17/2018 at 01:32 AM. Reason: Literary flare
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Old 07/17/2018   #58
Claymore
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Lex wrote: Objections? Questions? Suggestions?
Ok. First, I just want to reiterate generally that saying that something needs to be kept private does not mean that it has any sort of negative connotations or malicious undertones whatsoever. Working in private does not mean that the Content Creators - who, you know, are simply working on content strictly for the community - are out to overthrow the forum leaders, form super tight cliques in order to gang up on anyone, or generally turn their noses up at other members. At the moment the only special powers or recognition that Content Creators have is that they are on a Discord chat sever that anyone could join if they actually really wanted to contribute. It was already made clear, right from the start, that anyone joining would need to contribute in some way or they would be removed from the group - now I can see that the main reason this was suggested in the first place is because of this fear from the past that seems to permeate the forums.

Certainly, there are specific projects that will have a much greater impact and surprise for the community if they see it once it is completed, and not in drips and drabs. For example, there is something stunning that a group are working on at the moment that would lose absolutely all of it's impact if you saw each and every part of the Art and example clips that they are working on. And we've already talked about the important news and scoops that we might manage to get first that should be kept under wraps while being worked on quickly. That also means without a lot of input in order to get it done fast.

Keeping content private is not automatically a bad thing. I see the compromise suggestions of keeping things private on a per-project basis, or having naturally open things like threads and suggestions open (in order to avoid the above), but that doesn't tackle the other issues, as that is not the only reason why content creation should be kept private. I'm talking about the actual flow of creativity, and I'll come back to this a moment.

There should also be no real debate about being inclusive either. It was an issue I raised right off the bat of the first project that was worked on within the new setup - the need to ensure that as many voices within the Content Creators were heard as possible in a project. But that has limits. Whoever is running a particular project has to ultimately make decisions and get on with a project. Balancing so many different voices can be hard, and there is a fine line between doing so and not staunching any and all creativity as well.

However, even with all of that, everything is made is inclusive as possible. Let's take the VII Best as an example of the entire inclusive process that was done:

* As project leader I fielded the topic to the community
* All nominations suggested by the community were put into a poll
* The poll was redone several times in order to accurately reflect the community's thoughts and final rankings
* The writing team got involved and developed a script based on the community comments
* Issues were raised about obtaining permissions, so permission was sought from the community about their comments being used within the video
* Our voice-artists got involved and created the voice-over audio for the project
* The art team got involved to create artwork for the project
* The VII Best intro was devised
* Feedback on that intro was taken onboard and changes were made to it
* The first version and complete run-through of the video was made
* Everyone pitched in with feedback
* A second version of the video was made
* Everyone pitched in with feedback
* As project leader, I had to field those comments, take in some majority thoughts on music changes and aspects that should change whilst also keeping my creativity and vision for the video
* A third version of the video was made
* Finally, Lex had his input as both Site Director with changes that should be made (in order to maintain a standard and quality across all projects) and his own personal thoughts
* A fourth and final version of the video was made
* And actually a fifth after an error was noticed but it was already uploaded and gaining YouTube comments by that point

Look at how inclusive all that was.

Now, this entire structure would have been negatively impacted by having the entire community access to all the decisions and thoughts during the creative process. For me, personally, it would be a potential disaster to have every single voice on this forum have an input as to what clip they would change, what music they would have used, at what 0.2 second point they would have faded something earlier, or what transition type they think is best, etc... The structure can't support this. Even Writer's Rooms have a limit for a reason. We are as inclusive as possible within the Content Creators, but expanding to all voices is just an unreasonable request.

The creative process, and everything around that, should entirely be kept private / limited. It is already as inclusive enough as it is. I also don't believe that I am out of line in saying that this almost desperate need to keep everything 'open and transparent' has been a major detriment to this forum when anything at all actually needs to get done.

Ultimately, my biggest fear, in all of this, is that by doing this you could crush the creativity, fun, and the process that we have managed to cultivate so far. All because some people might be scared that something nice is being done for the community, all because it's being done behind closed doors, all because some people might get along and become friends by working with each other, all because of fears from 10+ years ago that still haunt the forums to this day.

Unfortunately, I don't really have any real answers. Halfway measures don't tackle the actual problems of the content creation process itself. Putting it to a vote doesn't even help, because if the heads of the forum believe that there is still an issue in this place with people forming dangerous cliques then such a process is ultimately pointless.

However, not many other Content Creators have spoken up, or seem to be concerned as much as I am with having the creative process being completely open. So I will assume that this is just something I am personally struggling with. In that case, all I can say is that I'll go for the ride and see if this can work.
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Old 07/17/2018   #59
Minato
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Claymore wrote:
However, not many other Content Creators have spoken up, or seem to be concerned as much as I am with having the creative process being completely open. So I will assume that this is just something I am personally struggling with. In that case, all I can say is that I'll go for the ride and see if this can work.
I generally feel the same way you do on issue. Particularly what Gabe said how this content is made for the community and it would kill the surprise factor if everyone was able to see the creative process, even just the initial brainstorming.
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Old 07/17/2018   #60
Lex
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It would be good to get more opinion on the new section, but to summarise my previous suggestion about keeping it as open as possible (because a couple of people working on projects have now come to me with concerns):

- Threads in which active projects are being worked on or discussed would be for content creators only (as "private" as the discord is now)
- The only public threads would be suggestion/ discussion threads, so if someone who isn't currently a "content creator" has an idea, they can make a thread with that idea in that section.
- When a project goes live a public thread will be made in the section for discussion

Sorry if I've been unclear about any of that, but that's my proposal because I do absolutely see the issue with everything being public and I think anyone who's worked on content for TLS can see the issues aswell. But I'm glad you guys are speaking up about this because at the end of the day it's you guys who are putting in the time and effort to make content for TLS.

I do also want to close the creator discord server after the board has been created though. Same deal, making a group of chats in the main TLS server in the same way as they exist on the other one with permissions to access it.
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