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Old 11/10/2016   #301
X-SOLDIER
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Fascination wrote:
I just remember a lot of early polls showing that he'd beat Trump by a lot, but again those were quite a while ago. It's hard to say how it would have played out but I do feel he'd have had a better chance than Hillary
Would he have outperformed Hillary? Maybe. If he had the full backing of the DNC then maybe, yeah.

Would he have ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY beat Trump because of some ancient ass polls? By that logic alone, fuck no. I love Bernie, I do. But he was/is an untested, unscathed politician running on a message that just a few decades ago was the considered the ideology of our sworn existential enemy.

Maybe Bernie WOULD have beat Trump. Some of his ideals are certainly things we should take forward. But as a whole we can't boil our loss down to "well bernie would have beat him time to die" because shit ain't gonna get done that way. We need to stop looking at the ground and take a hard ideological look at not only why we lost, but why we lost so many votes to Trump.

Trump himself isn't even that great a candidate. Obama would have annihilated him. Biden could have given up a run for his money. So what's the deal? Where did Hillary fail?
My buddy actually made a comment about this on Facebook that I reshared, which basically breaks down to the fact that Hillary lost the election WAY more than Trump won the election. It start with the fact that Trump and Clinton were the least popular presidential candidates in the history of the United States. Then you look at the numbers:

• Trump got just <1million fewer votes than Romney or McCain did in their runs.
• Clinton got just short of 6million votes less than Obama did in 2012, and 9.5million less than Obama in 2008 – and she STILL won the popular vote.

That's what it really boils down to. Clinton is far more unfavorable to the base she needed to connect with than Trump was with the base he needed to win with.

Also, you can't call Bernie an "untested, unscathed politician" given his long career (especially compared against Donald Trump's experience as a politician), not to mention that before the election and even now, he's the most popular/favorable politician in America.

So, we'd've had the most popular politician in America Vs. the least popular Republican presidential candidate in history. There's absolutely no contest. The DNC fucked all of us by ensuring that the democratic presidential candidate was one who was also monumentally unlikeable to the point that she couldn't win.

When it comes to the full, very tl;dr details of why Bernie Sanders wouldn't've failed in the election – This article actually has a really good breakdown of even more specific factors that crippled Clinton's chances at winning that wouldn't've hit Bernie at all.

The end result is that the DNC needs to get its shit together. Sanders just endorsed Keith Ellison for the DNC Chairman and hasn't ruled out giving the race a go again in 2020, but overall that tl;dr article has all the details about where Clinton failed and the Democrats need to clean up their act.



X
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…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 11/10/2016   #302
Trainer Red
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Aw man, I knew I should have tried to elaborate more, but the whole "blame straight white guys for the election" was part of my rhetheoric. (and in response to Dashell's post about how people on her FB feed were blaming straight white guys for Trump).

I mean, I don't think most Trump voters are bigots and racists. I mean, yes, I know, racists and bigots voted for Trump, and they are really, really vocal and active about it, but it could be just an ordinary person who agreed with some of Trump's policies and not agreed with some of Clinton's policies, but was still indecisive about who to vote for, but was told by everyone else "if you think Trump's policies are good, then you're a racist bigot retard, vote for Hillary instead", and not do anything to address their concerns or reach out to them, well. It's not hard to see who would vote for who.

I swear I'm going somewhere with this, but I just found an interesting post about this: https://www.facebook.com/wes.alwan/posts/583104348775

Anyways, I think I'm done playing devil's advocate for the time being. That being said, FF Wikia's tweet on the whole election thing accurately sums up how I feel about anything politics:

https://twitter.com/FFWiki/status/795783782943035392
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Old 11/11/2016   #303
Random Nobody
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Cthulhu wrote:
Clinton, er. I haven't a clue.
One of the many failings of the Clinton campaign is that she didn't campaign at all--she just advertised herself as Not Trump. She essentially lacked any political identity trying to play the chameleon and busying herself hitting the whip nae-naes™ and dabbingtons™. I called during the primaries that after she finished feinting left(ist) to siphon the Burnt Sandcastles vote, she'd swing right back to being the neo-con warhawk Kissinger apostle she's been for the last several decades. Turns out she didn't even get that far because she coasted along with same overconfident air of inevitability that got her crushed in 2008.

X-SOLDIER:76 wrote:
There's absolutely no contest. The DNC fucked all of us by ensuring that the democratic presidential candidate was one who was also monumentally unlikeable to the point that she couldn't win.
Right. Why did she even run when she know don't nobody like her ass. Like, take the hint, gorl.

You would have thought by now she would be tired of the smell of d feet.
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Old 11/11/2016   #304
Dawnbreaker
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Fascination wrote: Give it a shot; I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.
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"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #305
ForceStealer
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I haven't gotten the impression that this thread is disputing that? It's people processing the hows and whys of what took place, but that's all.
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Old 11/11/2016   #306
Dawnbreaker
Default

This is just one:

Dashell wrote: I'm going to say something that's going to piss a lot of people off but


I was looking at Trump's website and his plans for more schools and his health care reform and... I gotta be honest, most of it isn't that bad. I'd actually consider it to be "good." Some of his other ideas are actually alright too.


So maybe... some people voted based on that. If I just READ his ideas and didn't ever hear a line from a single speech he said, I wouldn't have considered him nearly as bad. And don't get me wrong, everything looks great on paper but I actually prefer what he has for health care vs what we have now. I never liked that it was mandatory for people to have. If some super healthy dude doesn't want it and ends up in a car accident, that's HIS fault.

Still not a fan of the wall but what are you going to do. I doubt it's going to happen anyway. And I hope that he leaves LGBTQs and abortion alone, but Pence is more of a worry there.

Not saying it would "make America great again" but if people voted based on things like that, I'd understand.
And I didn't have to go back too far in the thread.
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"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #307
X-SOLDIER
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Dawnbreaker wrote: There is so much wrong with this thread I would not know where to begin.
THIS sounds like you have issues with the discussions taking place in the thread.

Dawnbreaker wrote:
Fascination wrote: Give it a shot; I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.
THIS sounds like you have issues with the situation that America's put itself into.


I think that generally your initial comment made folks interested in what about our lengthy commentary and analysis of the situation was the "so much wrong with this thread" whereas it seems your sentiments were meant to be more directed towards the lines of "so much wrong with the situation – which is also the topic of this thread" unless I'm mistaken.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #308
Dawnbreaker
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To clarify: my points are based on the fact that there isn't nearly enough, at least for me, talk about how horrible this situation is.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

If that's not correct, please clarify.
__________________


"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #309
ForceStealer
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I don't see how that post is different than what I said. Processing the hows and whys of what happened. Trump said so many things that some were bound to make sense. As I recall he said he was gonna make a higher minimum wage than Clinton at one point. He also said in the very first Republican primary debate that he would raise the capital gains tax because it was crazy that the owners of these giant mutual funds were paying fewer taxes than the guys actually managing it.
I haven't looked at his site, but if it's got a plan for actually reforming healthcare outside of "repeal obamacare," then, hey, that makes perfect sense.

None of those things are endorsements of the man, it's trying to put together possible reasons for how. Because the idea that 7 states that went for Obama 4 years ago went for Trump suddenly became white supremecists in 4 years isn't hugely explanatory.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.
Just...what?
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Old 11/11/2016   #310
Cat Rage Room
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Also, you can't call Bernie an "untested, unscathed politician" given his long career (especially compared against Donald Trump's experience as a politician), not to mention that before the election and even now, he's the most popular/favorable politician in America.
I don't mean that he's an "untested, unscathed politician" in terms of his experience, I mean he's untested and unscathed in terms of the Republican Smear Machine, which Clinton has been a giant target of for 30 years.

Hillary Clinton, in particular, even compared to equally uncharismatic and shady/corrupt politicians has been fried by Republicans for decades. Almost her entire professional life. Bernie Sanders has not been subject to the same scrutiny, which may or may not have sunk him when it came to the general election.

I concede the point that Donald Trump is unpopular enough for that to maybe not have mattered, but don't forget that many older folks are terrified of socialism, and it's older folks that have decided, and still decide, elections.

Would I have rather Bernie Sanders ran against Trump? Absolutely. Would it have been a sure shot? That, I don't know. Trump is a unique phenomenon that threw a lot of variables into the trash. The rest of your post is spot on, though.

I honestly have no idea how to explain why it's wrong to make a racist, homophobic, child-molester President of one of, if not the, most powerful nation on the planet.

What do I need to explain...or, more precisely, why?

...I'm gonna go hide under a rock.
Oh, that's not what I figured you meant by "There is so much wrong with this thread I would not know where to begin." Whoops.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.
Huh?
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Old 11/11/2016   #311
Dawnbreaker
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You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
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"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #312
X-SOLDIER
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Dawnbreaker wrote: To clarify: my points are based on the fact that there isn't nearly enough, at least for me, talk about how horrible this situation is.

If you all think the situation is just fine, which is what I was gathering, I'll civilly see myself out.

If that's not correct, please clarify.
I think that if you're looking for outright loathe-spewing about the current president elect Donald Trump, there's plenty of that being felt, but it doesn't do anyone a damn bit of good at this point. He IS the president elect of the United States like it or loathe it.

All of the intolerant assholes got a huge boost to start being openly intolerant (see every story about violence against minorities of any kind in the last 24 hours), and that's fucking terrifying, but at the same time there's no one who can say those things aren't issues in modern America anymore.

Most of our reactions've been attempting to look at the how and why of what happened to allow him to win against Clinton (my previous tl;dr post), but the reality is that THIS IS HAPPENING, AND THIS WILL BE AMERICA FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE TAKES OFFICE, so the biggest and most important thing is to attempt to grapple with the fact that:

• Not everyone who supported Trump over Clinton is a hate-spewing, bigoted, racist, homophobic piece of shit. He does seem to have a monopoly of support from those groups, but that doesn't mean that everyone who supports him falls into that category. Failing to recognize that is going to make this continue to be irreparable, and as Obama has made pretty clear, that's not an option if we want to have a functional nation.
• We HAVE to find a way to work with Trump as President in a political situation where the Republicans have the Presidency, the House, & the Senate. The Democrats have ZERO power to just say no to things, because they lack a majority anywhere to exercise any level of control like that.

I don't think that anyone here thinks that this situation is fine. With Trump losing the popular vote, we LITERALLY have the least popular presidential candidate IN HISTORY taking office. There's nothing good about the situation we're in. Had Clinton won, I'd wager that we'd be seeing different types of mass protests and attempts for Texas to secede rather than California. The whole election is monumentally divisive, but if we don't make a MASSIVE effort to rebuild with one another and figure out how to make this shit situation work instead of point fingers and accuse the other side, it's literally never going to improve.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #313
Cat Rage Room
Default

You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
Because we know that already. We knew that before the election. But it's obviously more complicated than that, and putting our head in the sands won't do anything.

Let's be pragmatic.
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Old 11/11/2016   #314
ForceStealer
Default

Dawnbreaker wrote: You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
Despite the fact that he's received fewer votes than any other candidate in the last three cycles. And the population is 10% bigger than it was three cycles ago! You don't think that warrants any discussion at all? Let's just run down our list of "-ists" for twenty-one pages and not talk about what went wrong to allow the "huge amount of etc. in your country" to win the election despite only garnering that many votes. Good plan.
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Old 11/11/2016   #315
Dawnbreaker
Default

@X: I appreciate the comments you have made.

I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. That actually people who do support someone who is known to be racism, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.

@Mog: You recommend pragmatism, but I fail to understand what you mean. Clarify?
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"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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