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Pre-Crisis Final Fantasy VII All content for Before Crisis and Crisis Core focusing on the 8 years, leading directly up until the events of Final Fantasy VII.

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Old 07/16/2017   #106
LicoriceAllsorts
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1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.
2. It is not unreasonable or inaccurate of Rufus to point out that if Sephiroth is coming back, then Cloud will be involved whether he wants to be or not. Rufus doesn't choose to involve Cloud so much as acknowledge its inevitability.
3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows. It would be stupid not to. He just doesn't actually know all that much. Cloud already knows before he even arrives in Healen that the Remnants are looking for "mother" and Rufus admits that he and his people have been looking for Jenova and that their investigations may have disturbed the Remnants or Sephiroth's slumbering will or whatever... How is it even possible to share useful information when the information makes no sense?! The only thing he keeps secret from him is the fact that he has Jenova on his lap. Under the circumstances, I would probably have done the same thing. Hell, Barret would probably have done the same thing.
4. The thing I've never been able to understand is why Rufus throws Jenova's head off the balcony and then flings himself after it, shooting all the way down. How could this have struck him as the smart thing to do?
5. They wanted Jenova's head to try to find a cure for Geostigma and also to stop chancers and evil scientists (some of whom appear in Case of Shinra) from getting their hands on it.

I don't think Rufus and his Turks are angels or even very clever all the time, but they're not unmitigated evil either.
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Old 07/16/2017   #107
Minato
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote: 1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.
2. It is not unreasonable or inaccurate of Rufus to point out that if Sephiroth is coming back, then Cloud will be involved whether he wants to be or not. Rufus doesn't choose to involve Cloud so much as acknowledge its inevitability.
3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows. It would be stupid not to. He just doesn't actually know all that much. Cloud already knows before he even arrives in Healen that the Remnants are looking for "mother" and Rufus admits that he and his people have been looking for Jenova and that their investigations may have disturbed the Remnants or Sephiroth's slumbering will or whatever... How is it even possible to share useful information when the information makes no sense?! The only thing he keeps secret from him is the fact that he has Jenova on his lap. Under the circumstances, I would probably have done the same thing. Hell, Barret would probably have done the same thing.
4. The thing I've never been able to understand is why Rufus throws Jenova's head off the balcony and then flings himself after it, shooting all the way down. How could this have struck him as the smart thing to do?
5. They wanted Jenova's head to try to find a cure for Geostigma and also to stop chancers and evil scientists (some of whom appear in Case of Shinra) from getting their hands on it.

I don't think Rufus and his Turks are angels or even very clever all the time, but they're not unmitigated evil either.
Kadaj confronts Rufus about lying concerning Jenova's whereabouts, this is after they first were under the impression Cloud had it. Yes, I'm pretty sure the takeaway is Rufus told them Cloud was hiding Jenova.

Reno or Rude, recorded the forming of the Silver haired men at the Northern Crater. They know what they are and where they came from. Cloud had to hear about it from Vincent.

As for those "evil scientists", there was only one scientist interested in Jenova, he had this interest because he could use it to create a vaccine for Geostigma. He's mysteriously ended up dead though, after he told Rufus that unfortunately there was no cure for him.

Rufus had the guy that pointed them in this direction killed and gambled the creation of the vaccine to Geostigma on the hopes that this person was right about the necessity for Jenova but wrong about there being hope for a cure. Then when the stakes got heightened and Sephiroth got involved, Rufus, happily in might add, by his own words, gambled some more with the fate of Planet. All for the cure to the illness he had. Rufus is in this for completely selfish reasons. That doesn't make him unmitigated evil but it is hardly a good form of atonement.
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Old 07/16/2017   #108
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Minato wrote: They did involve this depressed, untrustworthy Cloud into the situation, against his will. Counted on him doing everything for them but didn't tell him anything useful because they preferred manipulation over trust and wanted to hold on the chance of making it out of this situation with the Jenova head in possession even if it meant Tseng and Elena's lives were forfeit. Does this sound like they've changed all that much?
I see we really are just going to ignore the proof they weren't planning to use Jenova's remains ...
Clement Rage wrote: No, I'm not. There is a huge difference between 'I've got work for you' and 'three superpowered killers are gunning for you, watch your back' If Rufus has benevolent intentions, what is your in universe explanation for deliberately playing down the threat at stake?
Lic already went over it better than I could have. Cloud was necessary because of his strength, but they had very little reason to think they could count on him.
Clem wrote: Because Cloud has already proven he can defend himself against them, and the Turks have already proven that they can't.
Which proves that he's useful, not necessarily trustworthy.
Clem wrote: As for that dragon, when he left the Church he had no idea the remnants existed (something a warning might have helped with, by the way) By the time he gets back, they've already been and gone.
He had plenty of idea after they attacked him. He didn't go back to the church, though, or even to check on Tifa and the kids. Dude was not handling things well.

Clem wrote: Doubtful, he'd already lied multiple times and said they found nothing.
What's doubtful? That Reno and Rude didn't know? They didn't.

Clem wrote: You omitted the part about not minding because he's having so much fun.
You omitted the part where the question he's responding to is if he regrets interfering in Sephiroth's resurrection ... and that the guy asking is the guy trying to revive Seph ... What are you looking for there? For Rufus not to have a dickish reply?

Clem wrote: If merely being in the presence of JENOVA was enough, Kadaj would know as soon as he was in the same room and that's game over.
Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.

Clem wrote: He could even just have had Cloud deliver the damn thing somewhere, anywhere, safer than his lap. Have Reeve put it in a vault. Almost anywhere in the world is safer than in his lap. The safest thing to do if he was actually altruistic would be to put into some else's care.
Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.
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Old 07/16/2017   #109
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The Twilight Mexican wrote: I see we really are just going to ignore the proof they weren't planning to use Jenova's remains ...
I'm sorry, what proof is that?
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Old 07/16/2017   #110
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I posted it on the previous page. Meanwhile, you're claiming that Rufus had Kilmister killed because he wanted Jenova's remains to create a cure for geostigma, when Kilmister never said anything of the sort. What he did say is that he wanted Jenova because he could use it to create something even more powerful than Sephiroth.

Rufus is explicit that he won't let Jenova fall into the hands of either mad scientists or Jenova's own remnants, and that he's going to end the nightmare his father started. These are his words.
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Old 07/16/2017   #111
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Minato wrote: Kadaj confronts Rufus about lying concerning Jenova's whereabouts, this is after they first were under the impression Cloud had it. Yes, I'm pretty sure the takeaway is Rufus told them Cloud was hiding Jenova.
I, however, am not sure. What purpose would he gain from telling them Cloud had it? Possibly he was hoping they would attack Cloud and Cloud would kill them, but a moment's thought would have made it clear to him that:
- there's no reason to suppose the three they see are all there is
- there's no reason to assume all three would have gone after Cloud
- there's no reason to suppose that they are killable.

Reno or Rude, recorded the forming of the Silver haired men at the Northern Crater. They know what they are and where they came from. Cloud had to hear about it from Vincent.
I thought it was a recording made and transmitted by Tseng or Elena, and interrupted by the Remnants. The first time you watched ACC, did you know instantly and beyond all shadow of a doubt who the Remnants were and where they came from? And you know more about this story than Rufus does. Rufus is making some educated guesses that they're connected with Sephiroth, but they're only guesses.

As for those "evil scientists", there was only one scientist interested in Jenova, he had this interest because he could use it to create a vaccine for Geostigma. He's mysteriously ended up dead though, after he told Rufus that unfortunately there was no cure for him.
I am pretty sure there were others. Kilmister was not a moral man. Maybe Rufus doesn't have a good track in that department either, but also, his encounter with Kilmister was part of what inspired him to try to change.


Rufus had the guy that pointed them in this direction killed and gambled the creation of the vaccine to Geostigma on the hopes that this person was right about the necessity for Jenova but wrong about there being hope for a cure. Then when the stakes got heightened and Sephiroth got involved, Rufus, happily in might add, by his own words, gambled some more with the fate of Planet. All for the cure to the illness he had. Rufus is in this for completely selfish reasons. That doesn't make him unmitigated evil but it is hardly a good form of atonement.
You're picking and choosing your information here - spinning it, one might say, in the manner of one of Trump's press officers. The Compilation is pretty clear about what Rufus is and what he isn't. He's not a hero like Cloud, but on the other hand he is willing to take responsbility for the mistakes of the company and he wants to help the world heal. Saying he "only" wants to cure himself is a bit dishonest. Of course he wants to cure himself! He wants to live! Wouldn't you? He's only, what, twenty-six years old? But he is also making sure that the medicine reaches as many people as possible. In the short time he's been in charge of ShinRa he has actually done quite a lot of good for quite a lot of people. That seems like a much better kind of atonement than shutting oneself up in a coffin or crystal for thirty years muttering, "I'm sorry" over and over.
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Old 07/16/2017   #112
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The Twilight Mexican wrote: I posted it on the previous page. Meanwhile, you're claiming that Rufus had Kilmister killed because he wanted Jenova's remains to create a cure for geostigma, when Kilmister never said anything of the sort. What he did say is that he wanted Jenova because he could use it to create something even more powerful than Sephiroth.

Rufus is explicit that he won't let Jenova fall into the hands of either mad scientists or Jenova's own remnants, and that he's going to end the nightmare his father started. These are his words.
Sorry, I guess I forgot that his conversation with Kilmister doved off in that direction at the end. But if Kilmister didn't imply that research of Jenova's remains will yield answers, while he did definitely state those already with symtomps can't be sabed, why is Rufus hanging onto them at all?

LicoriceAllsorts wrote: I, however, am not sure. What purpose would he gain from telling them Cloud had it? Possibly he was hoping they would attack Cloud and Cloud would kill them, but a moment's thought would have made it clear to him that:
- there's no reason to suppose the three they see are all there is
- there's no reason to assume all three would have gone after Cloud
- there's no reason to suppose that they are killable.
I think they wanted Cloud to start fighting Kadaj without giving Cloud to much reason to be angry at them.

I thought it was a recording made and transmitted by Tseng or Elena, and interrupted by the Remnants. The first time you watched ACC, did you know instantly and beyond all shadow of a doubt who the Remnants were and where they came from? And you know more about this story than Rufus does. Rufus is making some educated guesses that they're connected with Sephiroth, but they're only guesses.
Reno and Rude didn't leave Tseng and Elena behind for no reason, they saw what happened, or at least some of what happened. They know their new enemies kinda came into existence at the Northern Crater. Based on that Reno decided that Mother equals Jenova's friggin' head. Cloud ASKED them what they meant by Mother and they intentionally kept him in the dark, while trying to hire him to fight for them. How is that helpful?

I am pretty sure there were others. Kilmister was not a moral man. Maybe Rufus doesn't have a good track in that department either, but also, his encounter with Kilmister was part of what inspired him to try to change.
The supply of old business associates of Hojo's with their own personal project in mind for Jenova has to be fairly sparse at this point.

You're picking and choosing your information here - spinning it, one might say, in the manner of one of Trump's press officers. The Compilation is pretty clear about what Rufus is and what he isn't. He's not a hero like Cloud, but on the other hand he is willing to take responsbility for the mistakes of the company and he wants to help the world heal. Saying he "only" wants to cure himself is a bit dishonest. Of course he wants to cure himself! He wants to live! Wouldn't you? He's only, what, twenty-six years old? But he is also making sure that the medicine reaches as many people as possible. In the short time he's been in charge of ShinRa he has actually done quite a lot of good for quite a lot of people. That seems like a much better kind of atonement than shutting oneself up in a coffin or crystal for thirty years muttering, "I'm sorry" over and over.
He's holding the instrument of the Planet's doom in his hands while telling the guy that saved the world from Sephiroth that he doesn't know what is going on. Vincent is the reason Tseng and Elena survived Rufus' orders, Vincent is the reason Cloud knows this was about Jenova before he found himself staring Sephiroth in the face again, Vincent is one of the people that convinced the Cloud you mentioned was depressed and on the brink of giving up to keep fighting. Yeah I think Vincent had a better idea of how to turn a new page in life after his employment as a Turk was terminated, even with those thirty years in the coffin.
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Old 07/16/2017   #113
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1. Are you suggesting the Remnants would never have tracked Cloud if.... what? As far as I can remember, there is no reason to suppose that Rufus said "Cloud has Jenova" or that he "sicced" the Remnants on Cloud. Kadaj and Co could quite easily have found him for themselves.
The remnants go after Cloud, search his home and discover JENOVA's not there. Kadaj's immediate response is to go to Rufus and call him out on giving them a fake location, which Rufus acknowledges with 'this time you get the truth' What other interpretation is there? He told them Cloud had it, triggering them to attack him and search his home.

3. Rufus tells Cloud everything he knows.
"We found nothing." Lie.

"There are plenty of kids that miss their mothers." Not technically a lie, but implies that the SHM are just random kids when he knows otherwise. So functionally a lie.

"I'd never lie to a comrade." Lie. And that's not even including things that are possibly lies.

Lic already went over it better than I could have. Cloud was necessary because of his strength, but they had very little reason to think they could count on him.
All they needed to tell him was that he might be danger from superpowered killers. Over the phone. Not 'I've got work for you' 'you are in danger, watch yourself'. Not doing so amounts to deliberately endangering him. If they were simply hoping he'd win with no ulterior motives, then they would have done it, because they'd want to give him the best chance they could of victory.

Which proves that he's useful, not necessarily trustworthy.
He's already fought and defeated JENOVA, if she could puppeteer him, it would have come up then. Also, if Rufus thought Cloud could be controlled by JENOVA on proximity to her, the absolute last thing he would do is invite him to Healen.

He had plenty of idea after they attacked him. He didn't go back to the church, though, or even to check on Tifa and the kids. Dude was not handling things well.
He was attacked by two random dudes in the wilderness. He has no idea what just happened, and no reason to automatically conclude that they know where he lives. Rufus has this information, but fails to tell him any of it.

What's doubtful? That Reno and Rude didn't know? They didn't.
Doubtful that Rufus would suddenly start telling the truth after telling so many lies. What, Cloud was too hostile? It might have helped with that if he hadn't had his guards just attack him.

You omitted the part where the question he's responding to is if he regrets interfering in Sephiroth's resurrection ... and that the guy asking is the guy trying to revive Seph ... What are you looking for there? For Rufus not to have a dickish reply?
Not talking about how much fun he's having while watching Edge be levelled would be a start.Also, I read the conversation as

Kadaj: You know, you're the cause of all these problems in the first place, right?

Rufus: History is cyclical. We'll defeat the problems as they arise.

Kadaj: The problems you cause? You don't seem all that regretful.

Rufus: Why should I be? It's fun.

Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.
If Cloud could, he would've sensed it in Healen, so that's a loss too.

Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.
And? Unless you're implying Rufus somehow had some special knowledge that Kadaj was physically incapable of searching him, that doesn't make it a good idea.

To convince me of Rufus' good intentions, you have to come up with a way to spin deliberately endangering an someone while withholding vital information from him as to the nature of the threat as a benevolent act, which I'm not buying so far. Even assuming he does want Cloud kept clear of JENOVA, he could still tell him about the remnants, before they've already attacked him. And no, 'I've got work for you' doesn't count. That's malevolence.

Wow, this debate is nostalgic.
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Old 07/16/2017   #114
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Kadaj: You don't seem all that sorry.

Sorry? Why, I've never had this much fun.
Taking a sarcastic, off hand exchange literally is a pretty poor defense of any argument, man.
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Old 07/17/2017   #115
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Seriously. Especially if you're going to ignore everything he said right before, as well as this look on his face right after (when Kadaj starts to summon Bahamut):

Look how much fun he's having!

I guess Reno meant it too when he told Yazoo he was having the time of his life after almost just getting blown up by Bahamut.

Clement Rage wrote: All they needed to tell him was that he might be danger from superpowered killers.
I think he'd figured it out by then ...

Clem wrote: He's already fought and defeated JENOVA, if she could puppeteer him, it would have come up then.
It did. Temple of the Ancients? City of the Ancients? Reunion? Black Materia? Meteor?

Clem wrote: Also, if Rufus thought Cloud could be controlled by JENOVA on proximity to her, the absolute last thing he would do is invite him to Healen.
I agree that looks like a tactical blunder, but do you really think Rufus didn't have that hidden gun of his trained on Cloud from under the sheet the entire time? Contacting him was still necessary (an act of desperation, no doubt) because he had the best chance of being a physical match for the threat at hand.

In any case, you at least need to concede that Rufus would be an absolute idiot to be giving Cloud everything he's got when this is the same guy who willingly handed over the Black Materia and let Meteor be cast. Call that less than altruistic if you want, but being that trusting would just be dumb in that situation.

Clem wrote: He was attacked by two random dudes in the wilderness. He has no idea what just happened, and no reason to automatically conclude that they know where he lives.
More importantly, he has no reason not to. They ambush him in the wilderness and address him like they know who he is. He doesn't know who they are, except that they're hostile toward him. What would you think?

Clem wrote: Also, I read the conversation as

Kadaj: You know, you're the cause of all these problems in the first place, right?

Rufus: History is cyclical. We'll defeat the problems as they arise.

Kadaj: The problems you cause? You don't seem all that regretful.

Rufus: Why should I be? It's fun.
Well, if you completely change the things that were said to misrepresent them, sure, you can make anything into anything.

This is an extremely straightforward conversation:

1) Kadaj said humanity (not Rufus specifically) was the cause of the nightmares, that Jenova had come to make things better, and that the nightmares would never end until the humans were gone

2) Rufus replied that, yes, mistakes will be repeated just as life is a repeating cycle, but that they (humanity) would never let the Jenovas and Sephiroths of the universe win

3) The question Kadaj then asked: "Is that your excuse for going after Mother? You don't seem all that sorry."

4) Rufus makes a snide reply about having fun
---

Rufus said he isn't sorry for interfering with Kadaj's intentions/Jenova's will/Sephiroth's resurrection. Anything else you read into it is something you're putting there, but not what was said.

Clem wrote:
Kadaj didn't have Jenova cells, so he couldn't sense Jenova cells.
If Cloud could, he would've sensed it in Healen, so that's a loss too.
I'm not sure what your point even is, but Cloud was inarguably still feeling Sephiroth's influence in the movie. He collapses twice while having visions of him. His eyes even change to look like Seph's.

Clem wrote:
Yet it remained hidden until he revealed it. Imagine that.
And? Unless you're implying Rufus somehow had some special knowledge that Kadaj was physically incapable of searching him, that doesn't make it a good idea.
And my point is that things ended up working out pretty well, so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on what you think should or shouldn't have been done prior. Cloud should have done a lot of crap differently too, but things still worked out.

Clem wrote: To convince me of Rufus' good intentions, you have to come up with a way to spin deliberately endangering an someone while withholding vital information from him as to the nature of the threat as a benevolent act, which I'm not buying so far.
Okay, maybe you would trust someone who -- on the last occasion you saw them, no less -- you watched hand over the fuse to a bomb that would blow up the whole world. Maybe you would trust them with the fuse to the next bomb. If I'm in that room, though, I'm voting you don't get to make the decisions.

Clem wrote: Wow, this debate is nostalgic.
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Old 07/17/2017   #116
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There is a middle ground between giving Cloud everything and outright refusing to let the person you are counting on to save this situation out of the fire who they are and what they are after. And refusing to participate in initiatives to save children when asked. And things only worked out thanks to Aerith an x-factor they were not counting on. Cloud could have helped and I do mean help not take it himself, keep Jenova out of their hands if Rufus had been willing to tell him this was a factor.
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Old 07/17/2017   #117
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Minato, you know Cloud could have helped and you know Cloud would not have given in to the promptings of his Jenova cells, but Rufus doesn't know this. He doesn't know Cloud as we do. He made the decision based on the information available to him. As Tres has pointed out, Rufus was absolutely determined that the biological material known as Jenova should never again fall into the wrong hands or be misused, and as far as he was concerned the best way to ensure this was to keep it on his own person and not let anyone know he had it.

I'm not convinced Rufus was counting on Cloud to solve the situation. I rather think Rufus thinks the only person clever enough to solve the situation is Rufus! I think he was counting on Cloud to keep the Remnants busy and buy time. His plan did not succeed!
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Old 07/17/2017   #118
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I'm not sure why you keep bringing Aerith up? Her intervention would have been needed regardless of how anything else was done. Cooperation, no cooperation; Cloud knows everything, Cloud knows nothing.

Also, I'm confused as to why you're giving the Turks crap for refusing to go after the kids when the dude asking them to do it was himself refusing to go? None of them were refusing because they didn't care, though. Cloud was worried he would make things worse; the Turks were backing Tifa's effort to push Cloud into action.

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.

Anyway, I already agreed that maybe Rufus should have shared more. I think a lot of people in the movie and the original game could have made better decisions. Most of them were just doing the best they could, though.
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Old 07/17/2017   #119
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Clement Rage wrote: He even dismisses them as 'kids who miss their mothers' in person intentionally trying to lower Cloud's guard. That's the only reason to say that.
Just popping in to say that the script is obtuse and cryptic because the writer-programmers wanted it to be, not because any of the characters actually had motivations. Every scene with two or more men in the film boils down to checking the corners of the room and smirking at each other.

Clement Rage wrote: Have Reeve put it in a vault. Almost anywhere in the world is safer than in his lap. The safest thing to do if he was actually altruistic would be to put into some else's care.
Agree here too. I chalk it up to sloppy storytelling, working backwards from the EPIC REVEAL rather than starting with plausible motives and arriving at conflict and drama.

Calling Cloud at all is another totally baffling thing. There are obvious reasons why people outside of Cloud's inner circle would be reticent to trust him, so why call him to Healin at all? If he was afraid of Cloud's mind snapping, why invite him into this mess at all? Why not let him be a delivery boy in blissful ignorance, far away from the trouble in your lap? Or better yet, tell the SHM that Cloud has it while Cloud is relaxing at home and not driving around with a motorcycle full of swords?
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Old 07/17/2017   #120
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sloppy storytelling
/thread
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Clement Rage (07/17/2017), LicoriceAllsorts (07/17/2017), Mr. Ite (07/17/2017), Obsidian Fire (07/18/2017), Teioh (07/17/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/17/2017)
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