The Lifestream Home The Lifestream Forums The Lifestream Shop Donate to The Lifestream
The Lifestream

ARCHIVED FORUMS

Hello. You are currently viewing the old vBulletin forums, which are now in readonly archive mode.
Please go to https://thelifestream.net/forums to go to the current forums.


Go Back   The Lifestream Forums > Compilation of Final Fantasy VII > Final Fantasy VII Remake

Final Fantasy VII Remake The remake of FFVII announced at E3 on June 15th, 2015 -- OUR WHOLE LIVES HAVE BEEN LEADING UP TO THIS MOMENT!!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06/18/2018   #1
Vyzzuvazzadth
Thumbs up Exploring possibilities: Part 1 ends with Jenova Birth

In the wake of FFVII Remake's disappointing absence from E3, someone on the Remake board on GameFAQs reminded us about one of the earlier 4Chan leaks which seems to be the only one that still holds any ground.

By re-reading the whole thing, one sentence caught my attention, mostly because I'm still heavily invested in that subject: "The final boss of the first game is Jenova birth. That's where part 1 ends."

Of course the leaker talks about the cargo ship from Junon to Costa Del Sol. Right?
Well, that's where my idea for a discussion I'd like to start comes in.


What if they moved Jenova Birth to the end of the Midgar segment?

This idea is of course fueled by my strong rejection of part 1 ending on the cargo ship (see here).

Now, before you start throwing spoiled produce towards me, let me explain.

If part 1 ends after the escape from Midgar, the main antagonists of FFVII's story - Sephiroth and Jenova - have had barely any stage time. Sephiroth was mentioned a few times, we saw his sword and Cloud and Barret got a glimpse of a headless Jenova body inside of a container. That's about it. This would most likely feel underwhelming, especially for those who already know the full story of FFVII. Additionally, that Key Art of the FFVII Remake depicts Cloud, Midgar and Sephiroth. A Hint that we might get exposed to a higher presence of the latter.

This lack of screen time could be remedied by introducing Sephiroth in a more elaborate fashion. Of course, that can't be too explicit, because the mystery around the legendary Soldier must be preserved. I think a few more inclusions of him in dialogs and maybe a portrait somewhere should suffice. Then, Jenova as the final boss (after Rufus, Hundred Gunner, Heli Gunner and Motor Ball) would work quite well in my opinion.

Essentially, the battle against Jenova Birth is moved from the cargo ship to the end of Midgar. Same scene unfolds. On the cargo ship, instead of Jenova, one of Hojo's abominations is let loose (by Sephiroth), causes the carnage and must be disposed of by Cloud and company.

I think this can work because it's not quintessential that the first Jenova battle happens on the cargo ship. It just happened there, because it worked best in the original game in terms of pacing. But due to the multi-part nature of the Remake, the pacing will be different.

Sure, the Jenova battle at the end of Midgar could be an additional one, the first in 5 instead of 4. Chip already came up with that idea quite a while ago on GameFAQs. However, I think the trinity of Birth, Life and Death is very fitting, which is why I thought about moving Jenova Birth altogether.

Though, Jenova Conception has a weird but interesting ring to it...

What are your thoughts about this matter?

- Vyzz

Last edited by Vyzzuvazzadth; 06/18/2018 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Formatting, cleaned links
Vyzzuvazzadth is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 8:
ChipNoir (06/18/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), f a n c y (06/19/2018), HylianMogget (06/19/2018), looneymoon (06/18/2018), Minato (06/18/2018), solo player sab (06/20/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #2
ChipNoir
Default

The only way this'd work in my mind is if Motorball is knocked out of the game by JENOVA itself. A surprise ambush if you will.


The game does set up an opening for it. JENOVA's body is traveling SOMEWHERE in the city while you're escaping. It's not unfeasable to encounter it at the city's edge.
ChipNoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #3
Minato
Default

Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.
Minato is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 7:
Addy Carver (06/18/2018), Alex Strife (06/20/2018), BforBrigitta (06/19/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), HylianMogget (06/19/2018), Sprites (06/18/2018), Theozilla (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #4
Obsidian Fire
Default

I can see this working. It would open up the flashback scenes to be introduced differently. More like... "WTF was that thing?" "Looks like something I saw in the Niebel Reactor..." "When did you go there?" "Well..."

You'd have to restructure some stuff, but it sounds like they're doing that anyway...
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Obsidian Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #5
ChipNoir
Default

Minato wrote: Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.

I think you could pull it off if it's a cold encounter at the edge of Midgar. No explaination, just a very intense fight, and then JENOVA flies away in a flurry of black feathers.
ChipNoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #6
Sprites
Default

I dunno, it's an interesting premise but I don't feel it would have the same impact.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to have any Jenova battlesor any battles linked to Sephiroth before we even get to Kalm and Cloud explains his story. At that point no one including the player knows what's happened to Sephiroth, who he is except that he seems to have been a highly regarded member of SOLDIER and where Jenova falls into it, it's all still very new territory and I feel like once Cloud explains his story, the player and Cloud's group understand more about Sephiroths motives.

Of course this is a remake so it could be possible to change it up if they wanted but I think having Jenova battle on the ship is a good way to end part one.

The Party at this point have enough information about Sephiroth to start trying to figure out his motives and Cloud doesn't truly believe Sephiroth is alive until he sees him there on the ship, there's something about that and him immediately attacking the party with Jenova that I like and the questions and confusion after just leave it on a good way to end it.

Having the 1st part end with the party being attacked by one of Hojo's monsters even if it is by Sephiroth would seen less impactful to me
Sprites is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 12:
Addy Carver (06/18/2018), Alex Strife (06/20/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), HylianMogget (06/19/2018), looneymoon (06/18/2018), Minato (06/19/2018), pxp (06/18/2018), solo player sab (06/20/2018), Teioh (06/18/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018), Theozilla (06/19/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/18/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #7
X-SOLDIER
Default

I think that the first part should really focus on the strength of keeping the story as focused on Cloud, Midgar, & Sephiroth as possible – especially if we don't get out of Midgar or past the First Continent (which I'd be amazed if we did). Yes, we have INKLINGS of Jenova and mad science, but nothing that's fully formed until we hit the Jenova Birth encounter on the ship, and I don't see them pushing part one that far.

Additionally, I don't really dig the idea of restructuring JUST so that each part has its own JENOVA fight, because it seems unnecessary. Even if it's 3 parts I think that having no Jenova fights to start, then having Jenova Birth & Life, and lastly having Death & Synthesis provide a more cohesive experience for the context of those fights. Birth & Life are all about Jenova showing its full power and fearing it, whereas Death and Synthesis are about giving up the Sephiroth body ruse and really focusing on Reunion.

The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.





X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


~ | G+ | Facebook | Tumblr | Twitter | DA | TLS | FFOF | FF | SCL | KC | CC | ~
X-SOLDIER is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 11:
Addy Carver (06/18/2018), Alex Strife (06/20/2018), BforBrigitta (06/19/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), looneymoon (06/18/2018), Obsidian Fire (06/18/2018), pxp (06/18/2018), solo player sab (06/20/2018), Sprites (06/18/2018), Teioh (06/18/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #8
pxp
Default

I certainly understand the appeal in the sense that it’s a good compromise of sorts. But I actually think it undermines your very own well-defined and persuasively argued theory, Vyzzuvazzadth, that the Arc of Act 1 ought to be that of Avalanche versus Shinra. I know the counter-argument could be that Jenova-Sephiroth are introduced at the tail end of this arc anyway. But I think a boss fight with Jenova as the crescendo of said arc is thematically jarring. This I think holds from a narrative-perspective, at least in my opinion. But there are of course many other factors to consider.
pxp is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 11:
Alex Strife (06/20/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), looneymoon (06/18/2018), Minato (06/19/2018), Obsidian Fire (06/18/2018), solo player sab (06/20/2018), Sprites (06/18/2018), Teioh (06/19/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018), Vyzzuvazzadth (06/19/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/18/2018)
Old 06/18/2018   #9
ChipNoir
Default

On second thought, Motorball does make for a better final boss. It represents the technology might of ShinRa, which if it does end at part 1 in Midgar, is the only real antagonist.



So I think I might be against the JENOVA thing after all. They just really need to sell Motorball as a final-boss level encounter, rather than just one of many bosses encountered in that arc. Helligunner and Hundred Gunner were far more difficult than Motorball, especially if you're prepared with fire ring and elemental fire set ups.
ChipNoir is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 4:
Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/18/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #10
looneymoon
Default

It's been a while since I've played the game, so the sequence of events are pretty hazy. I think the restructuring in the story's pacing will depend entirely on how much each episode covers, and how long they are. I figured the first of an episodic release might encompass Midgar, and maybe have dramatic end/beginning of pt 2 with the Nibelheim flashback? If they decide to have a Jenova appear as a boss earlier, I think it would be more appropriate to incorporate it into that sequence as opposed to having a Midgar fight.

Hell, maybe we could even get an excuse to have Sephiroth be playable in a Jenova boss fight. Have it take place internally, foreshadowing to the end of game Cloud vs Sephiroth one on one at the end of the game. Just an idea.

If this leak is real, I find that placing more appropriate for the first Jenova encounter than in the present day timeline. The Junon cargo ship feels like a lot of content for one chapter. Midgar is interesting enough a location that I could easily see it taking a whole section of its own. I am not sure how well Jenova fits into the first run through Midgar if we assume that we are getting all the content present in the OG.

I dunno - it's really hard to say how this could work without knowing the scope of each chapter compared to the entire, completed game.
__________________
♦♦♦♦♦♦


looneymoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #11
HylianMogget
Default

Minato wrote: Actually encountering Jenova fleeing the scene of the Shinra Presidents murder weakens the questions raised by the trail of blood leading all the way up to Cloud's opened cell. I'm not in favor tbh.
Sprites wrote: I dunno, it's an interesting premise but I don't feel it would have the same impact.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to have any Jenova battlesor any battles linked to Sephiroth before we even get to Kalm and Cloud explains his story. At that point no one including the player knows what's happened to Sephiroth, who he is except that he seems to have been a highly regarded member of SOLDIER and where Jenova falls into it, it's all still very new territory and I feel like once Cloud explains his story, the player and Cloud's group understand more about Sephiroths motives.
I agree with these points. I think the lack of information about Sephiroth and Jenova during the opening Midgar bit is key to the pace of the (original) game, and I think the trail of blood sequence in the Shinra building would have less of an impact, and be less eerie, if you fight Jenova right away. I think how the Jenova and Sephiroth stuff is hinted at, but not explained in detail, until you get to Kalm is very effective - the scope of the game world literally opens up (the world map) and the scope of the conflict expands. Of course, the pacing in the remake will probably be quite different, and it's interesting to think about possible rearrangements.
__________________
HylianMogget is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 6:
BforBrigitta (06/19/2018), Dark and Divine (06/19/2018), looneymoon (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/19/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/19/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #12
Vyzzuvazzadth
Default

Thank you all for your valuable feedback and inputs.

I need to clarify a few points first:
  • My idea of moving Jenova Birth to the end of the Midgar section was to have part 1 end at Midgar while still having it end on Jenova Birth (assuming that the linked leak was real).
  • Replacing Jenova Birth with some Hojo experiment would therefore not be as much of a deal, since the game would not end on the cargo ship with that "random" boss. It would just be another boss in the storyline during part 2 like Bottom Swell before entering Junon.
  • I myself am still in favor of retaining the original chain of events with a split after Midgar and when Sephiroth summons Meteor, as detailed in my video, preferring Jenova Birth being encountered on the cargo ship for mostly the same reasons given in this thread (encounter too shortly after the Trail of Blood, too little build-up, less impact overall etc.)
  • Additionaly, having each part end on a Jenova battle isn't really a concern of mine. That's not the reason I was entertaining this idea. I personally would even prefer if Jenova Birth, Life and Death were all encountered within part 2 (Flashback to the Summoning of Meteor) to support the theme of the Reunion that starts with the Flashback and ends when Sephiroth summons Meteor.
  • From a storytelling perspective, ending part 1 on the cargo ship has much more cons than pros. In the end, it boils down to either heavily altering the story to force a narrative arc from the Bombing Mission to the cargo ship, OR ending with a cheap "To Be Continued..." in the middle of a narrative arc. In my view, that's worse than being able to seeing the world outside Midgar or learning more about Sephiroth in part 1. Several gameplay related problems arise as well, like backtracking and endgame content.

In any case, it's all about exploring possibilities, as the title says. Though I still think my proposed scenario has some merit. However, certain things need to change to increase impact and not taking away any momentum from the flashback at the beginning of part 2.

Like Obsidian Fire said:
Obsidian Fire wrote: You'd have to restructure some stuff, but it sounds like they're doing that anyway...

While I addressed most points in the list above, I'd like to directly reply to the following:

X-SOLDIER wrote: The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.
This paragraph confuses me. The whole Midgar section has nothing to do with chasing Sephiroth, save for the very end, but even then, it's more about escaping Midgar. The chase really begins with Clouds resolution at the end of the highway, which would be the end of part 1 in my proposed scenario (in the video and here).

The chase after Sephiroth really takes off after the flashback and ends at the Northern Crater, which would encompass my proposed part 2. Theme of part 1 is Shinra/Midgar and the themes of part 2 would be chasing Sephiroth and the Reunion. If part 1 ends on the cargo ship only about the last quarter of the game contains the chase after Sephiroth, which is still in full swing when the game ends. This doesn't make for good story telling, at least if you want to provide a full and unique experience for each part, as Square Enix plans to do.

I also fail to see what the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot has to do with eco-terrorism. The latter is directly linked to Shinra exploiting the planet for energy used for profit and to make their lives more convenient. Sure, Sephiroth is linked to Shinra and Mako, but thematically, those 2 are very different. Sephiroth plans to become a god and is Cloud's nemesis. While Shinra's Mako and Jenova experiments led to the creation of Sephiroth, the eco-terrorist part of the plot is restricted to Avalanche and the part of Shinra that exploits the planet.
Vyzzuvazzadth is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Minato (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #13
X-SOLDIER
Default

Quick note: Part 1 doesn't necessarily need to end on the Cargo Ship. The argument overall is that we hold off on introducing Jenova battles COMPLETELY until Part 2.

Vyzzuvazzadth wrote: While I addressed most points in the list above, I'd like to directly reply to the following:

X-SOLDIER wrote: The first part of the game should reinforce the idea of chasing after Sephiroth feeling like an illusive and terrifying thing, so that we get the most out of Cloud's flashbacks, and when you run into things like the Impaled Midgar Zolom you still have a sense of fear that's tied solely to Sephiroth, and doesn't yet involve this weird alien, too. You need time to really sit and stew in the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot that go hand-in-hand with the anti-corporate eco-terrorism threads that the game starts out with.
This paragraph confuses me. The whole Midgar section has nothing to do with chasing Sephiroth, save for the very end, but even then, it's more about escaping Midgar. The chase really begins with Clouds resolution at the end of the highway, which would be the end of part 1 in my proposed scenario (in the video and here).

The chase after Sephiroth really takes off after the flashback and ends at the Northern Crater, which would encompass my proposed part 2. Theme of part 1 is Shinra/Midgar and the themes of part 2 would be chasing Sephiroth and the Reunion. If part 1 ends on the cargo ship only about the last quarter of the game contains the chase after Sephiroth, which is still in full swing when the game ends. This doesn't make for good story telling, at least if you want to provide a full and unique experience for each part, as Square Enix plans to do.

I also fail to see what the Sephiroth-centric parts of the plot has to do with eco-terrorism. The latter is directly linked to Shinra exploiting the planet for energy used for profit and to make their lives more convenient. Sure, Sephiroth is linked to Shinra and Mako, but thematically, those 2 are very different. Sephiroth plans to become a god and is Cloud's nemesis. While Shinra's Mako and Jenova experiments led to the creation of Sephiroth, the eco-terrorist part of the plot is restricted to Avalanche and the part of Shinra that exploits the planet.
I think that your confusion is around the idea that Part 1 is ending with the Cargo Ship, which isn't necessarily the case. Where the arc ends isn't clear, but I think that the general consensus is that Jenova doesn't need to be brought in during the first game. That's especially because there's going to be a gap between the first part and the next one. Hence why the first part of the game should focus more on chasing after Sephiroth AND the anti-Shinra eco-terrorism bits.

Those two go hand-in-hand despite not being directly related thematically, because at the start of the game everything starts out with AVALANCHE VS. Shinra with a heavy focus on anti-corporate, pro-environmental terrorism and the atrocities being committed on both sides. Then, it slowly shifts towards the Cloud & Sephiroth relationship that's also tied up with Shinra via Hojo's mad science and their past together. That's how we move from the initial objective, but still maintain Shinra as important bad guys while making the Sephiroth side of the conflict something personal for Cloud, and by extension the players.

The first game's focus should be around establishing the stakes when it comes to Shinra & Sephiroth above and beyond all else. It will lay the groundwork for for the strange alien connections things to come in parts with with Hojo and Nibelheim, but those are VERY much something to bring in in the second act. If you have to make one game feel self-contained, but also a satisfying first act, it's easier to avoid focus on direct confrontation with Jenova outright rather than reconfigure events to ensure that Jenova Birth makes it in by placing her encounter elsewhere.

Essentially – Why put Jenova Birth into the first part of the game at all? Why not end before reaching that point in the story?




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


~ | G+ | Facebook | Tumblr | Twitter | DA | TLS | FFOF | FF | SCL | KC | CC | ~
X-SOLDIER is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 5:
BforBrigitta (06/24/2018), Minato (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018), Sprites (06/19/2018), Vyzzuvazzadth (06/19/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #14
Minato
Default

I feel Barret put it most aptly following the first time he looked on Jenova, he spake "Where's it's $#&*&@ head? This whole thing's stupid. Let's keep goin'."

If we encounter Jenova a second time before Cloud's story, we haven't really had time to gather any more elaborate thoughts on Jenova then Barret has. Jenova would be a more important endboss to Part 1 then Motorball, but we don't know why yet. It's really no different from Sample:H0512 at this point. If they need to juice up the Midgar escape, they should capitalise on Rufus, or potential SOLDIER encounters.
Minato is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 6:
BforBrigitta (06/24/2018), looneymoon (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/21/2018), Theozilla (06/25/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/19/2018)
Old 06/19/2018   #15
Vyzzuvazzadth
Default

@X-Soldier:
Ok, that clears up a few things. And after some more thoughts about this issue, I agree that Jenova shouldn't be an important entity in part 1, as Minato put it with the comparison to Barret's line. It's better to relegate everything Jenova-related (and Sephiroth-related for that matter) to part 2, aside from those bits and pieces already existing within Midgar (headless Jenova and the Masamune).

What I still don't understand is why you're talking about the chase for Sephiroth in part one. There's no chase happening before Cloud's resolution at the end of the highway. Before they see the Masamune protruding from President Shinra's corpse, Sephiroth is believed dead and the story doesn't care about him before that incident, and nobody is chasing after him.

As mentioned before, the actual chase after Sephiroth starts after the flashback. And if part 1 should also set up and contain the chase after Sephiroth, it has to contain much more than just the flashback and the impaled Midgar Zolom or else we're left with mere beginnings of a storyline that don't go anywhere. That's where the cargo ship comes in, since the confrontation with him and Jenova there is an important part of that chase. Same goes for the Gold Saucer (even if it's just a Red Herring), Nibelheim and of course the Temple of the Ancients and later the City of the Ancients for the low point in the story arc.

In short, I agree that if we want to have a cohesive and self-contained part 1, we should focus on Midgar and the struggles against Shinra (eco terrorism, exploitation of the planet, oppressed people, class differences etc.). What I don't agree with is conflating the chase after Sephiroth with the whole Midgar segment. Both differ fundamentally in terms of themes, motivations and conflicts. At least from the perspective of the story. Plot-wise, everything in FFVII is connected. But plot and story progression are not the same thing.

I agree that there's a nice and organic transition from the battle against Shinra to the chase after Sephiroth. However, there's still a clear cut from a storytelling perspective between escaping Midgar and Cloud telling his story in the flashback. As there is one between Sephiroth summoning Meteor and the execution at Junon. That's why I think those 2 points are the best ones to split the individual parts.

I hope I could present my case in a understandable manner. For some reason this specific topic has me struggling to convey my points (maybe because English is not my first language). In any case, I hope you understand where I'm coming from ^^


P.S.: It's funny how I ultimately undermined my own suggestion in this topic. But as pxp mentioned:
pxp wrote: But I actually think it undermines your very own well-defined and persuasively argued theory, Vyzzuvazzadth, that the Arc of Act 1 ought to be that of Avalanche versus Shinra.
Which is a fair point. I guess I shot myself in the foot with this one, but it was a fun exploration nonetheless.
Vyzzuvazzadth is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 6:
BforBrigitta (06/24/2018), Minato (06/19/2018), Obsidian Fire (06/19/2018), pxp (06/20/2018), The Twilight Mexican (06/21/2018), X-SOLDIER (06/19/2018)
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:04 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.