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Old 11/11/2016   #316
X-SOLDIER
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Fascination wrote:
You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
Because we know that already. We knew that before the election. But it's obviously more complicated than that, and putting our head in the sands won't do anything.

Let's be pragmatic.
Not to mention, it's most often the Republican side that tends to think that "old fashioned racism" either doesn't exist, or disappeared when we got a Black President – but that is demonstrably untrue now given all of the hate that's been emboldened, and they're going to forced to address that and HOPEFULLY even take action against it in a way that's significant.

Hell, the fallout of this election made racism, sexism, jingoism, etc. etc. almost impossible for either side to ignore at this point. The fact that it exists is bad but that's always been the case. The fact that it's been emboldened is terrifying and awful, but it also means that it can't be ignored or hand-waved away.

Hell, Trump even spoke about protecting American LGBTQ citizens in his acceptance speech. Sure he used it as a way to make comments about, "the violence and oppression of a hateful, foreign ideology." as the source of the dangers to them, but it's playing one bias against another – essentially, a slighted way of saying that, "the terrorists win if our gays aren't protected" and that is FAR from a perfect approach because of the other problematic issues of stoking the fires of xenophobic fears of immigrants and refugees, but he knows how to speak to his support base in a way that motivates them.

There's a shit ton of bad here with this election, but if we can't find a way to steer it to do some good, and just antagonize those around us with different political views than us, we're going to make the divide in this country bigger and more dangerous, because we're going to FUEL the hate towards each other instead of resolving it.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #317
Dawnbreaker
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@Force: I didn't say we shouldn't discuss what caused this. I'm saying we're coming up with explanations other than what actually occurred. There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting. Just because Trump won doesn't mean he should have.
__________________


"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #318
Jason Tandro
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Dawnbreaker wrote: You're all coming up with explanations that don't involve the fact that there's a huge amount of racist, homophobic, misogynistic people in your country. You'd rather come up with ANY OTHER explanation (which includes Trump having validity), than deal with the fact that this is just your largest sign that shit is very, very wrong.
I agree that the groundswell of latent bigotry is a huge contributor to Trumps message, regardless of what some Trump supporters might claim. This is one explanation as to WHY he got elected but not how and it's not the whole picture.

The biggest and most dangerous issue is the blatant racism, homophobia, islamophobia, etc that runs rampant in this country and is not curtailed. But the other factors have to be considered because no other president in history could be this blatantly wrong and still win the election.

I don't think anybody here is ignoring this issue but trying to grasp how the hell we wound up in this situation. A crippled electoral college, an unenthused left, and the rallying cry of a lower and middle class rural folk who felt marginalized are all contributing factors that need to be addressed.

Trump broke the mold somehow and everyone here is - without ignoring the major issue before us - trying to figure out the "X" Factor that let this travesty happen.
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Old 11/11/2016   #319
Cat Rage Room
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I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. that actually people who do support someone who is known to be racist, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.
I don't think anyone is saying otherwise...We're saying that some people who voted for Trump did it for reasons other than 'being racist!' and those reasons must be examined.

You recommend pragmatism, but I fail to understand what you mean. Clarify?
It's easy to dismiss Trump's success to racism and that's it but that will lead us nowhere, because the same people who voted for Trump do and will continue to have voting power for far beyond the next presidential election and their reasons for voting for such an individual must be examined if they are able to be appealed to. Some people you can't appeal to, and that's fine, but in any political situation you must appeal to people who vote for the opposition. You can't murder everyone who voted for Trump or whatever so they can't vote for his successor four years from now.

There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting.
No, the implication is that Trump was successfully appealing to certain fears that Americans have, that that's a conversation worth having within reason.
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Old 11/11/2016   #320
ForceStealer
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Dawnbreaker wrote: I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather)
And so, therefore, I will indict this entire thread and all potentially worthwhile discussion therein.

Dawnbreaker wrote: @Force: I didn't say we shouldn't discuss what caused this. I'm saying we're coming up with explanations other than what actually occurred. There has been several implications that Trump's policies are acceptable and that's what I'm vehemently protesting. Just because Trump won doesn't mean he should have.
Yes. You did. You said this thread is wrong on a bunch of levels or whatever because people acknowledge additional policy proposals Trump has made that might have appealed to the non-racist contingent. To ignore these things is reductive and being willfully ignorant, which is exactly the enemy we're hoping to combat, right?
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Old 11/11/2016   #321
Dawnbreaker
Default

@Force: You're intentionally misunderstanding me and I feel that's disrespectful. I didn't say the whole thread was wrong. There are parts I supported but a lot of it I don't.

@X: I don't think Trump's limp promise to protect the LGBTQ will suddenly undo all the rest of his behavior. I'm glad there's a TINY possibility of a silver lining, but I'm not going to put my faith into it and you can forgive me for that, considering everything else he has promised to do.

@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted. I'm sure there's an idiot or two who voted Trump because they actually don't even watch the News or something, but that's about it.

@Mog: You make a point about the fears, but I cannot help but be disgusted that anyone of a sane mind would vote for a man who is known to be the epitome of violence, racism, etc. I mean, discuss with those people, sure, but I fear you won't be very successful.
__________________


"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 11/11/2016   #322
ForceStealer
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Dawnbreaker wrote: @Force: You're intentionally misunderstanding me and I feel that's disrespectful. I didn't say the whole thread was wrong. There are parts I supported but a lot of it I don't.
Making a drive-by "there is so much wrong with this thread and I would not know where to begin" post is respectful?

Dawnbreaker wrote: @Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted.
lolwut? This is exactly the attitude that got the Democrats in trouble in the first place.

Dawnbreaker wrote: @Mog: You make a point about the fears, but I cannot help but be disgusted that anyone of a sane mind would vote for a man who is known to be the epitome of violence, racism, etc. I mean, discuss with those people, sure, but I fear you won't be very successful.
In other words, you have no ideas and therefore do indeed believe that there's no discussion to be had. Because unless your suggestion is actually, as Mog said, to kill everyone that voted for him, I don't understand what you're looking for here.
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hitoshura wrote: Don't belittle my peoples, bitch. We work hard and we do what we're told. And might possibly be Scottish.
ultima espio wrote: I'm not sure if it was a BOMB, it could have been MAKO, KING, BEST, or ORBS.
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Old 11/11/2016   #323
Random Nobody
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Old 11/11/2016   #324
X-SOLDIER
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Dawnbreaker wrote: @X: I appreciate the comments you have made.

I feel you are wrong on two points, however: 1. There are people on this board that do support Trump (and voted for him, I gather), and 2. That actually people who do support someone who is known to be racism, etc, is in fact, supporting racist, etc. So long we put people into power that promise to do harm to minorities, we support harm to minorities.
1: I am absolutely aware that there're people on the board who supported & voted for Trump, so I don't think that I can be wrong on that point.
2: Your second point is off simply because that's not how support like that works from a basic logical standpoint when it comes to prioritization at a basic psychological level. Let me boil this down to give you a bare-bones example.

• Candidate A is openly racist & sexist, but is very nationalist and concerned with American superiority.
• Candidate B is unreliable with high level national security, but is very concerned with equality.

- If you support Candidate A, you're a self-absorbed racist and sexist.
- If you support Candidate B, you're a myopic imbecile who would rather risk the country's safety to protect the minority, despite the fact that if we all fall, they fall, too.
- If you support Candidate C-F, you're whichever of the above failed to win.

> Supporters of Candidate A don't have to be sexist and racist if they think that the issue of preserving national security and improvement is the most important issue for a President.
> Supporters of Candidate B don't have to want to tear the country apart into a weak socialist fairytale if they think that social issues of equality of its citizens are the most important issue for a President.
> Supporters of Candidates C-F don't have to feel either of those ways because they prioritize something else entirely for what they want in a President.


Are racists and sexists going to be incredibly vocal about supporting Candidate A now that they won?
Absolutely.

Are the other Candidate A supporters going to be glad their candidate won, but also a bunch of them feel uncomfortable that that was their only option, because it brought in the bad shit with the thing that they felt was important?
Hell yeah.

Does it do any good to tell all the Candidate A supporters that they're most terrible scum of the Earth for electing a candidate who's such a piece of shit, and they're just as bad as the worst people who also supported Candidate A, when the election was between the two least popular candidates in history?
No. Way.


That's why the numbers in the election skewed heavily with Minorities voting Clinton and Whites voting for Trump because both sides are most motivated by things preying on those demographic's biggest fears – which are just different versions of a fear of safety for self.

And that's what the issue is. The majority of people are just looking for a form of safety that's most applicable to them, but there is a toxicity to any group that wants to use that safety to attack other people. Racism hides under the banner of safety from foreign invasion and oppression, but just because you REALLY, GENUINELY care about safety from foreign invasion doesn't mean that you're unquestionably racist.

If we attack the other side like they're all a caricatured version of the worst that that side has to offer, all we're doing is making each other less safe and making the safety we're all looking for less possible by refusing to work together. That's the number one issue of bipartisan politics, because everything becomes emotionally charged contempt for the other side by falling into an intractable us-or-them mentality rather than attempting to focus on our similarities.

It's our political system making us refuse to work together, rather than bringing us together, and unless we CAN come together, we're never gonna be able to fix this thing and build a better system that will help us STAY together and actually focus on the shitty things lurking in both camps.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #325
X-SOLDIER
Default

Dawnbreaker wrote: @X: I don't think Trump's limp promise to protect the LGBTQ will suddenly undo all the rest of his behavior. I'm glad there's a TINY possibility of a silver lining, but I'm not going to put my faith into it and you can forgive me for that, considering everything else he has promised to do.
It was never meant to. I brought it up simply to point out that the reality of the situation isn't nearly as reductive or simple as Trump supporters hating all minorities or even wanting violence and those things to happen. I'd go into more detail, but my previous post does a much better job of it – I just happened to've made it before I saw this comment and wanted to address it directly.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #326
ForceStealer
Default

Flawless post, X.
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hitoshura wrote: Don't belittle my peoples, bitch. We work hard and we do what we're told. And might possibly be Scottish.
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Old 11/11/2016   #327
AvecAloes
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X. If I could kiss your face right now, I would.
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Old 11/11/2016   #328
Jason Tandro
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Dawnbreaker wrote:
@Jason: You're acting like people can be more complex than just being bigoted. I'm sure there's an idiot or two who voted Trump because they actually don't even watch the News or something, but that's about it.
Dawn, I realize this is maybe not want you want to hear right now but bigotry is not the end-all, be-all of a person. It is endemic of greater issues of their upbringing and society and are the worst hallmarks of a human but they do not (necessarily) make up the entirety of the person. Assuming that every bigot out there lives their lives with literally nothing in their lives apart from hatred is far too simplistic. And most bigots out there honestly wouldn't consider themselves bigoted because they fall under the ignorantly racist not the hatefully racist.

A quote, if you will, from "When Constabulary Duty's To Be Done" from The Pirates of Penzance:

When a felons not engaged in his employment (his employment)
Or concocting his felonious little plans (little plans)
His capacity for innocent enjoyment ('cent enjoyment)
Is just as great as any honest man's (honest man's)



Furthermore, that's not even the point I was making, but merely mirroring the point that others made that while bigotry may explain a great chunk of Trump Supporters, assuming that the wholesale voterbase for Trump are ignorant hate-filled scum is, again, too simplistic.

We're not ignoring anything I promise you that, but blanket judgment will not help us get to the bottom of this.
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Old 11/11/2016   #329
X-SOLDIER
Default

Hell, the whole REASON that this election cycle and the fallout from it are so incredibly emotionally and ideologically painful, and we were stuck picking between the two least popular options ever is because of the two-party system digging the trenches on each side SO deeply. It's also the reason that Bernie Sanders got such huge support, because there is a growing understanding that it's the system itself that's contributing to the divisive nature of our politics. That's because the FPTP democratic system ALWAYS transforms into entrenched two-party system where neither side ever gets to support a candidate that they truly believe in AND both sides actually have to move AWAY from their ideologies to extremisms they dislike to cling to the few things that they do care about. (video explanation of those mechanics).


It's a really long road to go from Contempt to Contention to Objectivity – and nearly impossible to do when things are emotionally influenced. It's one of the first things that you learn when studying the psychology of argumentation is that as soon as the other side gets emotional – your chances of objectivity and reaching a meaningful consensus on both sides absolutely plummets, and that's precisely what a two-party political system does, and we have a voting system that GUARANTEES IT. That's why I make a point that coming together to correct this shit is so important, especially because of this year's election.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 11/11/2016   #330
Unit-01
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Great post X.
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