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Sub-Final Fantasy General discussion for non-numbered Final Fantasies, Final Fantasy-related games, broad Final Fantasy topics, and crossovers.

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Old 12/15/2014   #46
The Twilight Mexican
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Have to defend Yuffie. She may not have Vincent's peripheral connection to the Sephiroth plot (which doesn't tell us anything Hojo himself doesn't, other than the name of "the woman with my child"), but her Limit Breaks aren't shit like his are, there's that Conformer thing, and there's a whole lengthy sidequest you get to undertake by recruiting her.

She's easily more valuable to the player's experience. Infinitely so.
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Old 12/15/2014   #47
ForceStealer
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Lex wrote: ^Barret's Missing Score also ignores Morph's damage nerf if it's filled with mastered materia btw, people often seem to forget that/ don't know about it.
...

Dammit, Lex. Quit making me question my knowledge of FF7.

Thanks, though.
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Old 12/15/2014   #48
Celes Chere
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NO ONE SAID EDWARD FROM FFIV I'M SHOCKED

(and also happy because I liked his character AND found him useful)

I guess I would say... Relm, though she does have a one hit kill attack if the enemy isn't immune to death
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Old 12/15/2014   #49
LicoriceAllsorts
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I notice nobody's defending Penelo.

(I actually like Penelo; I have fun with her by making her a knife expert and then mixing her up with different parties - Basch, Penelo and Balthier is my favourite. In my mind she's FFXII's twin to FFVII's Elena. My imagination can make something out of Penelo, which is more than I can say for the people who created the game.
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Old 12/15/2014   #50
Cat Rage Room
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It's hard to defend Penelo, because from a storyline standpoint she is the least important character, and since FFXII characters in gameplay are exactly identical except for minute stat differences, there's no metric there, either.

However Fran has the lowest stats in the party.
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Old 12/15/2014   #51
Fangu
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Fran has the most average stats in the party. Not the lowest.

Gameplay wise, Penelo makes the best mage in the game. Nobody can do the amount of magick damage she can.

(If we want to talk about the most useless party member in XII, defining one is near impossible because XII's gameplay system lets you mix up things a lot more than the other games since anyone can be pretty much anything. If I was to pick a character, it would have to be Basch, because his stats only matter if you need high HP + do a high amount of Attack damage. Which is, mind you, what a lot of people end up doing when reaching higher levels: They equip everyone with a two handed sword and go full out Attack. But that's not the most economic way to play the game if you don't want to spend xxxxx amount of hours grinding.)

Story wise, as the story is end up being told, Vaan + Penelo are important because without them, the entire subtle class aspect plot is completely erased. But XII is a very quiet game and I can see why people would see Vaan and Penelo as useless. But they're not.
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Old 12/15/2014   #52
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Celes Chere wrote: NO ONE SAID EDWARD FROM FFIV I'M SHOCKED

(and also happy because I liked his character AND found him useful)
Sorry to burst your bubble:
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Any character who has "Hide" as an innate ability is pretty useless, I'm afraid. Definitely the least valuable party member in FFIV.

I might as well go through the rest of the games I've played.

Every playable character in V has a point because there are so few of them.

I already said that VI has a handful of pointless characters. In terms of story, Umaro is a clear winner, while Gogo, Strago, Relm, Gau and Mog also don't contribute that much. VI is really a game for magic casters, though, which Strago and Relm are both pretty good at, even though their innate abilities aren't so valuable (and can even break the game). Gogo scores points for versatility, but I never found a good use for Umaro, Gau or Mog.

In VII, I'd have to give it to Red XIII, because in terms of the story, he might as well have stayed in Cosmo Canyon. He's a good battle character at low- and mid-levels, but he's pretty much bottom of the heap at high levels.

Irvine is the most pointless in VIII for reasons already mentioned. You had one job, Irvine. Later on he unravels the GF memory loss stuff, but that's a ridiculous plot device anyway. Why didn't he just say something as soon as he met Squall and the others? Fast Shot is a useful limit break, but that still only makes him the fourth most useful character in battle: I always go with Squall-Zell-Selphie by the end of the game because of Selphie's 255% accuracy and Full Cure limit break.

Amarant in IX.

Kimahri in X. I finally found a good use for him on my most recent playthrough (the HD version): by sending him to Rikku's path on the Sphere Grid, he arrives there about the same time as she joins the party, which makes it a good time to use a couple of strength spheres (+4), as two characters will get the immediate benefit instead of just one. Then he becomes the second fastest character and the second strongest for most of the game. But then again, any character would be improved with a couple of stat-boosting spheres, so it's not a fair comparison. In most playthroughs he ends up being my weakest character, and apart from Mt. Gagazet, his role in the story is the smallest of all the main characters. Mind you, compared to the characters in this post from other games, he's not in the same league of pointlessness.

Penelo in XII. Even the temporary characters serve more purpose in the story than she does. Besides being kidnapped, events would still play out in exactly the same way without her. I usually go with two tanks and one spellcaster to control the battle, and she's only my reserve spellcaster. Fran is less useful in battle but contributes much more to the story.
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Old 12/15/2014   #53
Clement Rage
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote: I notice nobody's defending Penelo.
*cough*

Penelo is the commoner perspective, one that's not blinded by revenge like Vaan. She's lost all her family to the war, but still keeps her head, working for her keep and trying to stay alive without wasting time with stupid stuff like killing rats. And she's a pretty good mage, without Fran's annoying habit of dropping dead at inconvenient moments.]
And she's got the connection with Larsa, which involves the manufacted Nethicite which is kind of important plotwise.
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Old 12/15/2014   #54
Flintlock
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Fangu wrote: Gameplay wise, Penelo makes the best mage in the game. Nobody can do the amount of magick damage she can.
The official strategy guide says that both Penelo and Ashe have 69 magic power at level 99, but that Ashe has a higher value at level 90, 80, 70, all the way down to 10. What's your source?
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Old 12/15/2014   #55
Fangu
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Their max stats are randomized though. So Ashe can at best have Penelo's stats? At least that's what I thought, but I might be wrong. If you're going for the crit + reflect strategy (which is the fastest way to go through the game), you'll need Penelo.

Edit: She has the highest max MP. You're right.
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Old 12/15/2014   #56
Minato
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Storywise I'd Strago at least adds a lot of War of Magi lore, which you don't really get anywhere else. When compared with Yuffie who has "Shinra is bad plot" anmids a host of "Shinra is bad" plots, I feel he wins. He also certainly isn't bad gameplaywise. He has lot's of powerful abilities and less random then Gau. As for Relm, (SPOILER) She's Shadow's daughter. If Quina gets a pass cause his father took care of Vivi or whatever, then surely that counts for something. Shadow is more in need of the humanising that Relm's story provides then Vivi.
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Old 12/15/2014   #57
Cat Rage Room
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He's a good battle character at low- and mid-levels, but he's pretty much bottom of the heap at high levels.
Eh, so-so. Gameplay wise he's more useful than Vincent or Cait Sith. Nobody beats Cloud-Cid-Barret in terms of gameplay though, they're by far the best characters in the game.

Fran has the most average stats in the party. Not the lowest.
I am almost certainly positive that while Frans stats are the most average, they're also the lowest. I can pull out the stat chart if I'm wrong, though. I don't think the stats are randomized, and FFXII is a game that favors extremes when it comes to stat performance; someone average isn't as good as someone who specializes.

EDIT: Found it.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/459841-f...xii/faqs/45900

Story wise, as the story is end up being told, Vaan + Penelo are important because without them, the entire subtle class aspect plot is completely erased. But XII is a very quiet game and I can see why people would see Vaan and Penelo as useless. But they're not.
Useless no, but compared to everyone else in terms of the told narrative? I'd say they're the least important to the plot then, yeah?

Fast Shot is a useful limit break, but that still only makes him the fourth most useful character in battle: I always go with Squall-Zell-Selphie by the end of the game because of Selphie's 255% accuracy and Full Cure limit break.
Eh, her accuracy doesn't mean much; there's no scenario where her accuracy can outpace Shot.
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Old 12/15/2014   #58
Fangu
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The After Party wrote: I don't think the stats are randomized
They are to a certain agree. Probably not when maxed, but when you pick up any character iirc, their stats will be randomized within a certain range. I know this because speedrunners manipulate this for segmented runs.

Edit: It appears the randomized stats are limited to HP/MP. A link
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Ghost X wrote: As long as Fangu delivers the pizza, I will not particularly mind what is on it. Even if it is hot fiery death in plant form.


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Old 12/15/2014   #59
Keveh Kins
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Cloud in Final Fantasy Tactics. His cameo is a cool, fun little tie-in, and his limit break abilities are nice, but by the time you get him you're well on your way to maxing out your levels and he starts of at level 1, then you have to grind him up so that he can survive more than one attack which is a chore because you have to protect him from the fight most of the time so you're fighting with a party minus at least 3 characters, Cloud in the corner flanked by two other characters.

I mean, I still do it n' all because hey, it's Cloud, but aside from his limit breaks and the novelty of him being Cloud he does nothing that other already levelled characters don't do
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Old 12/15/2014   #60
LicoriceAllsorts
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Not really relevant I don't think I play FFXII properly. I give Fran a big axe, and she's also my thief. Even though Penelo is a magic caster I just don't feel it suits her personality, which is why I give her knives. I just like to imagine her nipping in, slashing, nipping out again.... Ashe and Vaan end up being my spell casters. I normally put Basch in just so he can be killed and swapped out for someone else. And I never give Balthier guns. It's poles all the way.
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