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Entertainment Poast about movies, television, animé, books, and pyrotechnics in the distance here. Music topics go in The Venue.

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Old 07/01/2018   #1846
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Old 07/02/2018   #1847
X-SOLDIER
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That was a super solid video. +10000 Internets.

Also, as a comment on the last (pseudo-joking) comment about Rey learning things too quickly, there was a Twitter conversation that I can't find now that nailed WHY that is really well. It's that Luke's training was him constantly doubting that the things that he is being told he can do are possible, whereas Rey has always believed in things like the legends of Luke Skywalker, so she inherently lacks the doubt that continually held Luke back all throughout his training in the films.

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That's the core difference in Luke & Rey's characters, and the "acquiring Force Powers" quickly. The Force has always been about potential and belief in that potential, which is also interesting when you take a look at Anakin & his abilities along with Luke & Rey and how their struggles are all different and where it lead them and is leading her.


• Anakin has incredible potential but is taught to fear that potential by the Jedi, because of both his age and the prophecy. He eventually falls when that fear and hatred is answered by the fact that the power that he's always wanted exists, but at a terrible cost that the Jedi withheld from him, and becomes a Sith.
• Luke has great potential but continually battles self-doubt about the possibilities of that potential in himself. He spends a great amount of time unsure, but it's in RotJ when he is confident, but still wary of the places that that power might take him if it's used incorrectly that he truly becomes a Jedi that overcame all odds to become legendary. Then he's confronted with his hubris and doubt, before eventually realizing that the most important role the Jedi served by existing was always to bring hope.
• Rey has incredible potential that she believed in as a story, knows definitively is real from Han Solo & Ben, but initially only rejects her own role in it. When she accepts that she has a place in all of this, she then rejects the idea that it deserves to fade away, because she believes that the Jedi are more than the sum of their collective deeds – which is why Luke passes on the mantle to her rather than letting it die.

How she goes on to define what that means in Episode IX is gonna be really interesting (and I'm still REALLY REALLY hoping that we get to have Force Ghost Anakin play some role in it).





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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/03/2018   #1848
X-SOLDIER
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Rey & Ben's connection even shows through in the choreography in Rey's training and Ben's fight with Luke: https://twitter.com/starwarstuff/sta...25736161763328




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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/03/2018   #1849
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Old 07/03/2018   #1850
X-SOLDIER
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^ FUCKING. THIS.

His performance is what makes Machete Order work so well, and brings out absolutely AMAZING emotions in Return of the Jedi when you see Anakin's arc come full circle. Watching Revenge of the Sith into Return of the Jedi is still one of my favourite things ever.

I really can't overstate how damn much I want him to be in Episode IX. It made me really REALLY happy when he actually showed up to Celebration last year, and got such a warm reception from the fans.

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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/04/2018   #1851
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On the incredibly toxic Star Wars fandom during the prequel era: https://twitter.com/ahmedbest/status...22723764162561




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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/04/2018   #1852
Obsidian Fire
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So I finally saw Episode 8. I liked it. A lot.

One of the main things I liked the most about it was that it had a lot of subtleties to it. Which is a new thing for Star Wars I feel. In the main movies at least. I've never seen the TV shows, so I'm not really counting those.

Star Wars has never been good with subtleties. In Episodes 4-6, this isn't a big deal-breaker. It's obvious the Empire's bad, so it's a good thing it falls. Vader has at least some subtleties in how he feels, but that's about it. And Vader never really gets to explain why he did what he did, so it always felt very random to me.

Episodes 1-3 is where the lack of subtleties is felt hard. Especially with the Jedi Order. The Senate, as incompetent as it is, at least has the Rebel Leaders that will come out of it. But that's a foregone conclusion because of Episode 4. The Jedi Order though? It's almost like it's set-up to fail right from the get-go. Which doesn't feel real to me. Like... that's not how an organization with as many people in it as it's supposed to have would be. It either needed to have more points of view in in, or have less people and be less impactful on the galaxy. It just feels like you're being beaten over the head with "this is an incompetent organization that lost it's way a long time ago" for three movies straight. Which gets really annoying. It's almost like the only subtle people in the Jedi Order is Anakin and maybe Obi-Wan and the rest of the Order is there to make them stand out.

Long story short, as much as I think Star Wars has the skeletons of good stories in it, it's always done a bare-bones job of telling them. It wants to make sure the audience gets what it's trying to tell them so it makes everything super obvious to the point it doesn't feel realistic anymore. This wasn't too much of an issue with the Original Trilogy, but it's one of the main reasons I will always prefer fan ideas of what's going on "under the hood" in Episodes 1-3; some of them help the characters feel much more realistic then the movies ever did.

Episode 7 has a more subtleties then Episodes 1-3 ever did and Episode 8 runs on subtleties. Problem is... there hasn't been a lot of reason to watch for subtleties in the Star Wars movies in a really long time. It's not really something I think people expect from Star Wars. It's not something I expected from Star Wars. Given that Star Wars is trying to be a Cinematic Universe (and in fact, was the written equivalent of a Cinematic Universe before the term ever existed) it's probably something people should get used to sooner rather then later.

On another note... It's a lot easier to get obsessed about what people don't like about where the plot could be going when the cinematography and editing is top notch. Episodes 1-3 will always have the feeling that the same plot could have come off way better if the editing didn't feel so clunky. In Episode 8 (and 7) the editing is good. Really good at times. So there isn't a whole lot of feeling that the same story could have been made to feel better by changing how it is presented. Instead you have a situation where people want the actual plot to be different.
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Old 07/04/2018   #1853
Clement Rage
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Y'know, I always thought the Machete order had something to do with that Robert Rodrigues film. Apparently not. Shame to lose Ep 1 though.

PT were by far the most subtle of the SW Films for me.
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Old 07/05/2018   #1854
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I don't think you really "lose" Episode I. The Phantom Menace really works a lot better told as a story that exists on its own, because the narrative flow is so hard to fit in smoothly with the other films. On top of that, things like Darth Maul connect more strongly to Clone Wars, Rebels, & Solo which means that it does a lot better when viewed sort of in its own context as more of "A Star Wars Story" content than the Episodic films. On that front, even the slightly more kid-oriented humour and such doesn't feel out of place at all, and I think it actually holds up a lot better if you use it as the starting point for diving into the non-episodic Star Wars material.

The Phantom Menace >> Clone Wars >> Solo >> Rebels, makes for a really nice progression of events that has a very different feel, but is still one that's REALLY one that I enjoy. Depending on what other "Star Wars Story" films come out, TPM is likely still the best way to kick those ones off.




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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/05/2018   #1855
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X-SOLDIER wrote: I don't think you really "lose" Episode I. The Phantom Menace really works a lot better told as a story that exists on its own, because the narrative flow is so hard to fit in smoothly with the other films. On top of that, things like Darth Maul connect more strongly to Clone Wars, Rebels, & Solo which means that it does a lot better when viewed sort of in its own context as more of "A Star Wars Story" content than the Episodic films. On that front, even the slightly more kid-oriented humour and such doesn't feel out of place at all, and I think it actually holds up a lot better if you use it as the starting point for diving into the non-episodic Star Wars material.

The Phantom Menace >> Clone Wars >> Solo >> Rebels, makes for a really nice progression of events that has a very different feel, but is still one that's REALLY one that I enjoy. Depending on what other "Star Wars Story" films come out, TPM is likely still the best way to kick those ones off.




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I disagree as I think Episode I is still important to Padme's development but for the record, Machete order means you don't watch Episode I at all. It strikes it from the viewing order, period.
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Old 07/05/2018   #1856
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Minato wrote: I disagree as I think Episode I is still important to Padme's development but for the record, Machete order means you don't watch Episode I at all. It strikes it from the viewing order, period.
Oh, I am aware Machete Order it removes TPM from the viewing order of the original 6 – but the films to consider in any viewing order now are MUCH larger than it was back when Machete Order was first suggested, so that's what I meant by it isn't lost. More and more, The Phantom Menace feels more like "A Star Wars Story" entry because of the way that it connects pieces of the Star Wars Universe better than it does the Episodic blocks. If I had to detail out a viewing order for Star Wars, I'd split it out into sections, and I'd go through them like this:

Fall of the Republic to Rise of the Rebellion
• The Phantom Menace
• Clone Wars (series)
• Solo
• Rebels (series)

Fall (and Rise) of the Empire
• Rogue One
• A New Hope
• The Empire Strikes Back
• Attack of the Clones
• Revenge of the Sith
• Return of the Jedi

The Resistance & The First Order
• (Resistance series?)
• The Force Awakens
• The Last Jedi
• Episode IX


Both extant animated shows as well as The Phantom Menace are a great kicking off point for diving into the series, specifically when it comes to getting kids into the ideas of what it's all about. The Phantom Menace & Solo both set really good tones for the series that follow them, and all four have Darth Maul's story flowing through them. Additionally, you get Anakin & Vader, as well a different type of reveal of Anakin becoming Vader told through Ashoka's eyes, so it carries a heavy payoff, but it keeps a lot of mystery intact. The framework of the series follows similar beats to the next trilogy, but it paints a picture of the larger galaxy surrounding that time period.

Rogue One kicks things off perfectly from that groundwork: It's got small tie-in references to both Clone Wars and Rebels that transition things from being about many events, and funnels them into a more tightly interconnected story. It ends with Vader and a bigger emphasis on the story as it moves into A New Hope. From there, we get all the advantages of Machete Order – tighter story, both the Emperor AND Palpatine's reveals are still left intact, though they've been teased in small parts in Rebels, the HOW of both of those events is still intact, which makes Return of the Jedi all the most powerful. Additionally, Leia, Luke, Han, Chewie, Lando, Mon Mothma, and many others have had tiny little moments that give you a little, "oh yeah" sense of who they are as they come into the story, and begin to be the main driving force behind everything.

Then, there's the gap. I'd assume that the new up-and-coming Resistance series is gonna create a good sense of space between 6 & 7 that doesn't quite exist that'll help to transition the distance between those two that used to exist between 3 & 4, but doesn't any longer. What advantages that may bring isn't clear, but at the moment, the sequel trilogy feels that it's best on its own, so it's likely that preceding it with that will serve it best.

Who knows what other films may come along in the future, or where they might fit, but for Star Wars as it is right at this moment, this is how it feels that it would work best if you wanted to dive in for the first time. Yes, it's a lot of TV series, so, if you wanted to hold off on the "Star Wars Story & Series" section – you totally could. I think that the biggest advantage of diving into it like this is really for kids though. That first bit has a LOT of stuff that kids will latch on to, and have a feel for Star Wars, even if they aren't quite old enough or on board for the tighter narrative arcs of the episodic films. It's one of those things where I think that giving each entry material that it matches really brings out the best in all of it.




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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 07/05/2018   #1857
Clement Rage
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Should I take this to the Tangents thread?

TPM has nothing to do with CW or Rebels, the only common thread is Maul.

TV shows In CW he's just an occasional Obi Wan sidequest, in Rebels he's a miniboss, and in Solo he's a cameo. He's not actually important to any of the follow ups.

You get a bunch of soft characterisation for Palpatine/Anakin in TPM, as well as the state of the galaxy before things go bad. Also the critically important point that Qui Gonn's dying promise forces Anakin on a young Knight that's not ready for him which leads to everything that follows.

Anakin's initial 'free the slaves' motivation is important.

Less important but still worth seeing: Why the TF want Padme dead in the first place.

Re: Ahmed, yup, that was the worst of fandom. I don't dare to read the comments.
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Old 07/06/2018   #1858
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Clement Rage wrote: Should I take this to the Tangents thread?
No. Plz god no.

Clement Rage wrote: TPM has nothing to do with CW or Rebels, the only common thread is Maul.

TV shows In CW he's just an occasional Obi Wan sidequest, in Rebels he's a miniboss, and in Solo he's a cameo. He's not actually important to any of the follow ups.

You get a bunch of soft characterisation for Palpatine/Anakin in TPM, as well as the state of the galaxy before things go bad. Also the critically important point that Qui Gonn's dying promise forces Anakin on a young Knight that's not ready for him which leads to everything that follows.

Anakin's initial 'free the slaves' motivation is important.

Less important but still worth seeing: Why the TF want Padme dead in the first place.

Re: Ahmed, yup, that was the worst of fandom. I don't dare to read the comments.
The jump from The Phantom Menace to Attack of the Clones is essentially the same as the jump from TPM to CW. They're both big gaps in time for what's going on, but you dive in a few days later in to Anakin & Obi-Wan as Jedi immediately doing awesome Jedi things. All of the establishing characterization of TPM still gets used for them, and for a number of other characters. This is also why this is the first "entry" and overcomes just ignoring TPM altogether.

Aside from Maul's story (which covers Dooku, Mandalorians, the Syndicates, and Obi-Wan), Clone Wars also follows up on lots more of the characters in TPM to give them depth that jumping into 2 & 3 doesn't. Padme alone is in 24 episodes, and Grievous doesn't feel like he popped in from nowhere. Additionally, the show covers a lot of justice & injustices on various worlds, the role of the Jedi as defenders, and the socio-political beats of the larger galaxy that TPM establishes but the films don't have the time to explore outside of that – because it's full-time following Anakin's story. It helps having more time to establish the Jedi as a proper, competent organization of Force Users, while having 2 & 3 as a flashback later makes sense why it's only hitting the heights of their weaknesses that lead to their destruction specific to Anakin.

Having all of that first is another thing that just helps 2 & 3 to work better in Machete Order, because they flesh out the little details of those characters in advance, and it also creates enough distance that the fact that Natalie Portman still plays Padme doesn't seem as jarring as when 1 & 2 are in closer proximity to one another, because you've established the idea of those characters together other ways.




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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 07/06/2018   #1859
Obsidian Fire
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TMP never felt like an Episodic SW entry to me. There's too big a storytelling time-skip between it and Attack of the Clones for me to think a lot of characterization in TMP is important for Clones and forwards. You can easily start the main SW story in Clones and it still works.

I'd have rather had Episode 1 be about Padme as she navigates being a new Senator as Padme as Senator is very important to who she is in Clones and Revenge. Padme as Queen is not. You'd also get a lot more time with Papatine as Chancellor and be able to dig into what was going on in the senate from the PoV of a senator instead of the pov of a nation.

The same thing goes for Anakin. Anakin as a Jedi who never fit in because of his background is more important for Clones and Revenge then Anakin as a kid who is naturally good at piloting.

Attack of the Clones assumes the audience can figure out that was what was going on in the timeskip between the two movies, but there's not a lot of hints as to what was going on in the timeskip. It's "Tell, Don't Show" at it's worst.

Edit: See what X wrote. I havn't seen the TV Series, so the fact that there are a lot of gaps I think should be filled in is very obvious. I'm glad someone got around to filling them in, it just boggles my mind that stuff was nowhere in the films everyone who's into Star Wars on a surface level knows.
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Old 07/06/2018   #1860
Ryushikaze
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See, my new Machete, or rather "Epic" order would be

Rogue 1
ANH
ESB
TPM
AoTC
Clone Wars
Revenge
Rebels
Return

And then go on from there. I haven't seen Solo yet so I can't comment on where if anywhere I'd stick it.

This way you go from "Things are hopeless" to literally "a new hope" to the major reveal, to "how did we actually get here" culminating in "the galaxy is at peace. For now, anyways."
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