The Lifestream Home The Lifestream Forums The Lifestream Shop Donate to The Lifestream
The Lifestream

ARCHIVED FORUMS

Hello. You are currently viewing the old vBulletin forums, which are now in readonly archive mode.
Please go to https://thelifestream.net/forums to go to the current forums.


Go Back   The Lifestream Forums > Compilation of Final Fantasy VII > Pre-Crisis Final Fantasy VII

Pre-Crisis Final Fantasy VII All content for Before Crisis and Crisis Core focusing on the 8 years, leading directly up until the events of Final Fantasy VII.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07/17/2017   #121
Minato
Default

LicoriceAllsorts wrote: Minato, you know Cloud could have helped and you know Cloud would not have given in to the promptings of his Jenova cells, but Rufus doesn't know this. He doesn't know Cloud as we do. He made the decision based on the information available to him. As Tres has pointed out, Rufus was absolutely determined that the biological material known as Jenova should never again fall into the wrong hands or be misused, and as far as he was concerned the best way to ensure this was to keep it on his own person and not let anyone know he had it.

I'm not convinced Rufus was counting on Cloud to solve the situation. I rather think Rufus thinks the only person clever enough to solve the situation is Rufus! I think he was counting on Cloud to keep the Remnants busy and buy time. His plan did not succeed!
Rufus' behaviour: Telling them Cloud had it, calling a meeting with Cloud, deciding to risk showing Kadaj he had Jenova in order to destroy it the moment he sees Cloud fighting Bahamut SIN, are even more baffling to me if he had no faith in Cloud. To me his actions tell us he had faith that Cloud was the key but nevertheless wanted to hold on to his secrets.
The Twilight Mexican wrote: I'm not sure why you keep bringing Aerith up? Her intervention would have been needed regardless of how anything else was done. Cooperation, no cooperation; Cloud knows everything, Cloud knows nothing.

Also, I'm confused as to why you're giving the Turks crap for refusing to go after the kids when the dude asking them to do it was himself refusing to go? None of them were refusing because they didn't care, though. Cloud was worried he would make things worse; the Turks were backing Tifa's effort to push Cloud into action.

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.

Anyway, I already agreed that maybe Rufus should have shared more. I think a lot of people in the movie and the original game could have made better decisions. Most of them were just doing the best they could, though.
I've brought up Aerith in response to the idea that things worked out fine. The whole affair with the SHM could not have gone worse; Tseng and Elena were kidnapped and rescued without any attempt at rescue from their compatriots, the kids were taken manipulated into working for them, Rufus was taken, Jenova fell into the wrong hands and Sephiroth was resurrected. Complete outside interference was what saved the Planet.
Rufus, Reno and Rude were involved in the from the very beginning and their only positive contribution is involving Cloud. Which is fine, given that Cloud saved the world from Sephiroth twice already. But if that's the plan, utter refusal to clue in Cloud to what's going on looks really really bad to me. And Cloud did go save the kids. After Reno told him to go instead of them. And Cloud is dying of Geostigma unlike them. Which resulted in a failure of said solo rescue effort.
Minato is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Clement Rage (07/17/2017)
Old 07/17/2017   #122
The Twilight Mexican
Default

I already said Cloud went to save them ...

It's starting to feel like you're deliberately not responding to what I'm actually saying. Also annoying how you just whizzed right on by the point about what happened when Bahamut showed up.

And again: Reno was only asked to go to the Ancient's city because Cloud asked him. And Cloud only asked because he was being too much of a bitch to do it himself -- which Reno and Rude clued into, and tried to give Tifa a hand. You seriously can't put what was Cloud's responsibility (Marlene and Denzel) off on the Turks

Fork's sake, who do you think got them the intel to begin with? They're the ones who found out where the kids had been taken. What sinister motive would you like to read into that?

And you want to talk about things working out: How would that have gone down if they had gone? Cloud himself just barely survived, and only that with Vincent's intervention.

As for Aerith, once again: She would have had to step in no matter what. You can bring her up in response to my observation that things worked out all you want, but that really just backs up what I'm saying. Better decisions maybe could have been made here and there by multiple people, but the effects of those different decisions would have been no better in the end. Overall, they got a really good outcome.
__________________
Quexinos wrote: I wish I had been there when Cloud realized he had geostigma. I bet he cried.
hito wrote: man i miss flip phones, they were cool and now everything is a boring slab
The Twilight Mexican is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 5:
Clement Rage (07/17/2017), LicoriceAllsorts (07/17/2017), Obsidian Fire (07/18/2017), Teioh (07/17/2017), Theozilla (07/18/2017)
Old 07/17/2017   #123
Clement Rage
Default

I think he'd figured it out by then ...
He hadn't met them by the time of the first phone message. So no.

It did. Temple of the Ancients? City of the Ancients? Reunion? Black Materia? Meteor?
North Cave? Does Rufus think Sephiroth threw the fight? That the world was saved by coincidence?

I agree that looks like a tactical blunder, but do you really think Rufus didn't have that hidden gun of his trained on Cloud from under the sheet the entire time?
Which would have done exactly nothing to help. He's extremely unlikely to even hit Cloud, and even if he does it won't stop him quickly enough to matter, he'll be dead and JENOVA will be taken. If he believes proximity to JENOVA to be dangerous, that's another reason to explain everything over the phone.

But regardless, even if we believe that's a valid fear, Rufus still has no reason not to warn him about the superpowered killers as soon as possible. As in, instead of 'I've got work for you.' And then in Healen he downplays the threat. Let's say he doesn't say 'I have JENOVA'. If he has good intentions, he'd just say 'I don't know' rather than try to pass them off as random nuts. He deliberately tries to lower Cloud's guard.

More importantly, he has no reason not to. They ambush him in the wilderness and address him like they know who he is. He doesn't know who they are, except that they're hostile toward him. What would you think?
I'd assume it had something to do with that mysterious job Shinra has just tried to hire me for, and go looking for answers from them, and then walk out in disgust when it becomes clear they have vital information that they aren't telling me. Which is what he does.

I'm not sure what your point even is, but Cloud was inarguably still feeling Sephiroth's influence in the movie. He collapses twice while having visions of him. His eyes even change to look like Seph's.
My point is, if Rufus thought proximity to JENOVA was a risk for Cloud, he wouldn't ask him to come to Healen, because that would be a world ending mistake and his gun would make no difference to that outcome.

And my point is that things ended up working out pretty well, so I'm not sure why you're so hung up on what you think should or shouldn't have been done prior. Cloud should have done a lot of crap differently too, but things still worked out.
Because any way you slice it, it's a crazy risk to carry on your person a world dooming item when you know that a superpowered killer knows you know where it is and is coming directly after you.

Okay, maybe you would trust someone who -- on the last occasion you saw them, no less -- you watched hand over the fuse to a bomb that would blow up the whole world. Maybe you would trust them with the fuse to the next bomb. If I'm in that room, though, I'm voting you don't get to make the decisions.
If he subsequently had a breakdown over it, defused the bomb when no one else could, and you subsequently need him to do the same thing, do you tell him it's only a hand grenade, there's nothing to worry about?

For that matter, all of them end up saving kids -- Reno and Rude included. They grab some as they run away from Bahamut.
And if they were willing to brave the SHM that time, why not in the Forgotten City?

How would that have gone down if they had gone?
Maybe they could grab some kids and escape while the SHM are focused on Cloud? Or if the SHM actually pay attention to them, then that's one less for Cloud to worry about.

Just popping in to say that the script is obtuse and cryptic because the writer-programmers wanted it to be, not because any of the characters actually had motivations. Every scene with two or more men in the film boils down to checking the corners of the room and smirking at each other.
Heh. I was about to comment that AC was actually surprisingly consistent and well written underneath the flashiness.

Fork's sake, who do you think got them the intel to begin with? They're the ones who found out where the kids had been taken. What sinister motive would you like to read into that?
Easy. The plan is still to get Cloud to fight the remnants, so they need him to have a reason to hunt them down.

If he was afraid of Cloud's mind snapping, why invite him into this mess at all?
Yes. So either he wasn't, or it's a bad plan.

1) Kadaj said humanity (not Rufus specifically) was the cause of the nightmares, that Jenova had come to make things better, and that the nightmares would never end until the humans were gone

2) Rufus replied that, yes, mistakes will be repeated just as life is a repeating cycle, but that they (humanity) would never let the Jenovas and Sephiroths of the universe win

3) The question Kadaj then asked: "Is that your excuse for going after Mother? You don't seem all that sorry."

4) Rufus makes a snide reply about having fun
If that's the conversation, why does Kadaj expect him to regret it? Unless he's calling Rufus an example of humanity meddling with JENOVA and causing problems.

Let's take JENOVA out of the equation for a moment. Rufus doesn't have to give it to Cloud or say he has it, or even say 'it's in a secure location that shall remain nameless.'

What is your in universe explanation for Rufus withholding the rest of the information he has from Cloud, to the point of deliberately playing down the threat level? I keep asking this question and y'all keep ducking it.
__________________
Octo, and possibly some other people wrote: You should be able to build your side without tearing another down
Clement Rage is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Minato (07/18/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/18/2017)
Old 07/18/2017   #124
The Twilight Mexican
Default

Clement Rage wrote: North Cave? Does Rufus think Sephiroth threw the fight? That the world was saved by coincidence?
That doesn't prove much to someone who wasn't there, though. Rufus doesn't know anything about how the fight went down, whether Cloud broke Seph's control over him, how vulnerable Cloud may or may not still be to manipulation, etc.. He only knows what he's seen, and it isn't good.

We're talking about telepathic mind control here. You can't even compare it to addiction, though that seems the obvious place to go for a comparison in some ways (e.g. someone doesn't stop having an addiction because they resist the impulse one time). Rufus doesn't have a lot of data to draw on here.

And the part that doesn't involve mind control actually looks worse. Cloud wasn't being controlled at the moment he handed over the Black Materia.

Clem wrote: Which would have done exactly nothing to help. He's extremely unlikely to even hit Cloud, and even if he does it won't stop him quickly enough to matter, he'll be dead and JENOVA will be taken. If he believes proximity to JENOVA to be dangerous, that's another reason to explain everything over the phone.

...

My point is, if Rufus thought proximity to JENOVA was a risk for Cloud, he wouldn't ask him to come to Healen, because that would be a world ending mistake and his gun would make no difference to that outcome.
You were the one to bring up proximity to Jenova. You and I both know -- as does Rufus -- that proximity was pretty much irrelevant the last time around. Sephiroth could exert his influence from anywhere in the world. He's doing it right that moment with geostigma.

And besides: Cloud already has Jenova inside him, so he's always in close proximity to it.

If Rufus is concerned that Cloud could be controlled, but he's still desperate enough to contact him for help, it's better to have him show up on Rufus's terms, find out what he knows, see how he reacts to bringing up sensitive topics, etc.

Clem wrote: But regardless, even if we believe that's a valid fear, Rufus still has no reason not to warn him about the superpowered killers as soon as possible.
He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.

Clem wrote: And then in Healen he downplays the threat. Let's say he doesn't say 'I have JENOVA'. If he has good intentions, he'd just say 'I don't know' rather than try to pass them off as random nuts. He deliberately tries to lower Cloud's guard.
You really need to decide on one argument here. Is he trying to get Cloud to deal with this world-ending threat he can't deal with himself or is he trying to set Cloud up to get killed by the threat, putting himself back in the position of being unable to deal with the world-ending threat? You're meandering.

He's not trying to lower Cloud's guard. He's just keeping his cards close to the vest because he doesn't know how much he can trust Cloud -- but he finds himself nonetheless in the uncomfortable position of needing to reach out to him for help. He tells him "You're all we have." He's not misleading him when he says that.

For that matter, he only downplays two notions: 1) whether they found anything; 2) the precise nature of the SHM.

As far as the first goes, it would have been dumb to tell him that right off the bat for reasons I've already gone over; plus, he needs to gauge Cloud's reaction to talking about that and Sephiroth. As for the second, Cloud's already going out the door at this point, so this alliance idea seems to be a bust.

Should he have gone ahead and said "Those guys kind of are Sephiroth in a way"? Yeah, probably. Like I said, a lot of things should have been done differently. Maybe he thought telling him that would lead to Cloud insisting on knowing why the SHM were after him, though -- in which case he'd have to reveal what he's holding. Which he probably didn't want to do if he couldn't get Cloud to agree to an alliance. For God's sake, if Cloud decided he didn't trust Rufus to hang onto something that dangerous, then Rufus has to deal with trying to keep this thing out of Cloud's hands too after he's already failed to defeat the SHM once.

It's really not hard to explain any of this if you think about it in practical terms of what you'd do in that position rather than with vague "he's being naughty" explanations that leave all kinds of holes in logic.

For that matter, though, it's not like Rufus didn't bring up that these guys were interfering in their effort to deal with Sephiroth -- whose mind he said he suspected was still alive within the Lifestream and causing geostigma. So, at this point, Cloud knows Sephiroth's spirit may still be alive, and that the superhuman assailants who just kicked his ass and could summon monsters also attacked the Turks while they were trying to counter Sephiroth. And on top of that, he knows that these guys attacked the Turks at the Northern Crater of all places, which is not exactly somewhere you'd expect to find some "random kids," as you called them.

If Cloud doesn't himself have some idea after all this that these guys aren't ordinary humans, and that they may in fact be connected to Sephiroth (who they look nothing at all like, right? ) ... and he's going to lower his guard after he already fought and lost to them ...? Then he's an even bigger moron than I thought and Rufus didn't need that kind of liability on board anyway. =P

Clem wrote: I'd assume it had something to do with that mysterious job Shinra has just tried to hire me for, and go looking for answers from them, and then walk out in disgust when it becomes clear they have vital information that they aren't telling me. Which is what he does.
So you'd drive all the way to the mountains instead of hop back over to check on your place(s) nearby? After these obviously superhuman wackos kicked your ass? That doesn't strike you as questionable decision making?

Clem wrote: Because any way you slice it, it's a crazy risk to carry on your person a world dooming item when you know that a superpowered killer knows you know where it is and is coming directly after you.
Any way you slice it, every option carried great risk. There were no easy options.

Clem wrote: If he subsequently had a breakdown over it, defused the bomb when no one else could, and you subsequently need him to do the same thing, do you tell him it's only a hand grenade, there's nothing to worry about?
Clever though that is, Cloud didn't exactly defuse the bomb. He killed the guy who lit the fuse, which he had, in the first place, given to the guy who did the lighting. Someone else wrapped the bomb in a really thick blanket that somehow worked.

Also, I think you've got your steps out of order there a little. The breakdown is why he handed the fuse over in the first place.

Clem wrote: And if they were willing to brave the SHM that time, why not in the Forgotten City?
Because Cloud needed to get his ass in gear. Though actually watching the two Turks in that scene again, it kind of looks like Reno does want to go, but Rude stops him and convinces him to tell Cloud to do it.

Clem wrote: Maybe they could grab some kids and escape while the SHM are focused on Cloud?
Unlikely. Moving them a few dozen feet out of the range of an explosion after Kadaj has released his control over them is one thing; trying to grab while they're under Kadaj's control and exhibiting superhuman strength themselves? Probably wouldn't have gone well.

Clem wrote: Or if the SHM actually pay attention to them, then that's one less for Cloud to worry about.
I suppose that's a reasonable point.

Clem wrote: Easy. The plan is still to get Cloud to fight the remnants, so they need him to have a reason to hunt them down.
Wow. That is all.

Clem wrote: If that's the conversation, why does Kadaj expect him to regret it?
Because he's been taken captive and will be killed?

Clem wrote: Unless he's calling Rufus an example of humanity meddling with JENOVA and causing problems.
He never said anything about humanity causing problems by meddling with Jenova. He said they needed to be exterminated before Jenova ever got there, and that this is why she came. Go back and see for yourself.

Clem wrote: What is your in universe explanation for Rufus withholding the rest of the information he has from Cloud, to the point of deliberately playing down the threat level? I keep asking this question and y'all keep ducking it.
It's been answered thoroughly. He has very little reason to trust Cloud, but he's in the desperate position of reaching out to him and maybe even relying on him in order to prevent a world-ending crisis. He genuinely believes the Maguffin of Doom is safest right where it is, and he has neither the time nor the means to quarrel with Cloud if he should disagree about that.
__________________
Quexinos wrote: I wish I had been there when Cloud realized he had geostigma. I bet he cried.
hito wrote: man i miss flip phones, they were cool and now everything is a boring slab
The Twilight Mexican is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 4:
Clement Rage (07/18/2017), LicoriceAllsorts (07/18/2017), Teioh (07/18/2017), Theozilla (07/18/2017)
Old 07/18/2017   #125
Clement Rage
Default

That doesn't prove much to someone who wasn't there, though. Rufus doesn't know anything about how the fight went down, whether Cloud broke Seph's control over him, how vulnerable Cloud may or may not still be to manipulation, etc.. He only knows what he's seen, and it isn't good.

We're talking about telepathic mind control here. You can't even compare it to addiction, though that seems the obvious place to go for a comparison in some ways (e.g. someone doesn't stop having an addiction because they resist the impulse one time). Rufus doesn't have a lot of data to draw on here.

And the part that doesn't involve mind control actually looks worse. Cloud wasn't being controlled at the moment he handed over the Black Materia.
I find it unlikely that Rufus hasn't done everything he can to find out what happened there, but even so, he has to know that Cloud went in, survived, and stopped Sephiroth... he knows that "Sephiroth is dead". If manipulation would have helped, it would have been used then. So he knows that Cloud has managed to resist it in circumstances where it absolutely would have been brought to bear if the opposition could turn him. And knowing that JENOVA's in play and might be using mind control might actually help him resist it more than not knowing!

You were the one to bring up proximity to Jenova. You and I both know -- as does Rufus -- that proximity was pretty much irrelevant the last time around. Sephiroth could exert his influence from anywhere in the world. He's doing it right that moment with geostigma.

And besides: Cloud already has Jenova inside him, so he's always in close proximity to it.

If Rufus is concerned that Cloud could be controlled, but he's still desperate enough to contact him for help, it's better to have him show up on Rufus's terms, find out what he knows, see how he reacts to bringing up sensitive topics, etc.
I brought up proximity to JENOVA because you were using it as a reason not to give JENOVA to Cloud. If that's irrelevant, then there's no reason not to mention that it's in play.

He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.
If that was true, he would want Cloud to have have the best chance possible, which would entail explaining more of what he knows immediately. There is no excuse, at all, for not doing that if he had benevolent intentions.

You really need to decide on one argument here. Is he trying to get Cloud to deal with this world-ending threat he can't deal with himself or is he trying to set Cloud up to get killed by the threat, putting himself back in the position of being unable to deal with the world-ending threat? You're meandering.
Setting up a win win situation by setting two powerful people that don't like him against each other. If they kill Cloud, he's hoping that he takes one or two of them with him, and then turns them against Vincent, or whoever's next in line.

Maybe he thought telling him that would lead to Cloud insisting on knowing why the SHM were after him, though -- in which case he'd have to reveal what he's holding.
So Rufus isn't afraid at all of being interrogated by Kadaj, but would be unable to hide anything from Cloud?


For that matter, though, it's not like Rufus didn't bring up that these guys were interfering in their effort to deal with Sephiroth -- whose mind he said he suspected was still alive within the Lifestream and causing geostigma. So, at this point, Cloud knows Sephiroth's spirit may still be alive, and that the superhuman assailants who just kicked his ass and could summon monsters also attacked the Turks while they were trying to counter Sephiroth. And on top of that, he knows that these guys attacked the Turks at the Northern Crater of all places, which is not exactly somewhere you'd expect to find some "random kids," as you called them.

If Cloud doesn't himself have some idea after all this that these guys aren't ordinary humans, and that they may in fact be connected to Sephiroth (who they look nothing at all like, right? ) ... and he's going to lower his guard after he already fought and lost to them ...? Then he's an even bigger moron than I thought and Rufus didn't need that kind of liability on board anyway. =P

If he's banking on Cloud specifically drawing those conclusions...why does he flat out deny exactly that possibility when asked about it?

So you'd drive all the way to the mountains instead of hop back over to check on your place(s) nearby? After these obviously superhuman wackos kicked your ass? That doesn't strike you as questionable decision making?
Not at all. If he had the information right then that was being specifically withheld from him, then you might have a point. But as is, he knows nothing, needs answers, and has no reason to believe they'd target his home or know where it is... unless, say, he immediately led them directly to it? With the information he has, it's an easy assumption that they think he's carrying something for Shinra.

Also, they didn't kick his ass, it was basically a draw.

Any way you slice it, every option carried great risk. There were no easy options.
But almost all of them were better than keeping the artefact of doom on your person when the person that wants it knows you have it or know where it is, and you have no means to defend against them.

Clever though that is, Cloud didn't exactly defuse the bomb. He killed the guy who lit the fuse, which he had, in the first place, given to the guy who did the lighting. Someone else wrapped the bomb in a really thick blanket that somehow worked.
Which only worked because they guy that lit the fuse wasn't around to stop it. But, our metaphors are stretching.

Because Cloud needed to get his ass in gear. Though actually watching the two Turks in that scene again, it kind of looks like Reno does want to go, but Rude stops him and convinces him to tell Cloud to do it.
And they couldn't follow him anyway because...

Unlikely. Moving them a few dozen feet out of the range of an explosion after Kadaj has released his control over them is one thing; trying to grab while they're under Kadaj's control and exhibiting superhuman strength themselves? Probably wouldn't have gone well.
Where have they demonstrated superhuman strength, being under Kadaj' control (which doesn't happen until the lake) and how would Reno and Rude know about that?

It's been answered thoroughly. He has very little reason to trust Cloud, but he's in the desperate position of reaching out to him and maybe even relying on him in order to prevent a world-ending crisis. He genuinely believes the Maguffin of Doom is safest right where it is, and he has neither the time nor the means to quarrel with Cloud if he should disagree about that.
Well, he could just not tell him where it is, like he does Kadaj... unless he's somehow afraid Cloud will be able to get it out of him while completely confident that he can withhold the same information from Kadaj?

If JENOVA couldn't be given to Cloud because she could exert her influence on him, which she could do anyway if, as you've argued, geography is irrelevant to this, then it doesn't matter if he's told about her or not... it might even help him resist her influence if he knows it's a possibility

If proximity does matter, or Rufus fears that proximity matters, he wouldn't want Cloud anywhere near him. Either way, his plan doesn't work if the fear is that Cloud will just take JENOVA or fall prey to her influence.

Also, it's not a binary situation of keeping JENOVA or giving her to CLoud, he could find someone else to keep it safe that Kadaj doesn't know about.
__________________
Octo, and possibly some other people wrote: You should be able to build your side without tearing another down
Clement Rage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/19/2017   #126
The Twilight Mexican
Default

Clement Rage wrote: I find it unlikely that Rufus hasn't done everything he can to find out what happened there ...
What, has he held interviews with Cloud and co.? Obviously not.

Clem wrote: ... but even so, he has to know that Cloud went in, survived, and stopped Sephiroth... he knows that "Sephiroth is dead". If manipulation would have helped, it would have been used then.
And it was.

Clem wrote: So he knows that Cloud has managed to resist it ...
No. He doesn't. He wasn't there. He doesn't know what happened.

He knows Cloud and the others succeeded. That's it. How the fight went down is information he just doesn't have.

Clem wrote: And knowing that JENOVA's in play and might be using mind control might actually help him resist it more than not knowing!
Or it might make him more susceptible once he starts thinking about her. You have no idea. I have no idea. Rufus has no idea. And unlike us, he can't afford to be wrong.

Clem wrote:
You were the one to bring up proximity to Jenova. You and I both know -- as does Rufus -- that proximity was pretty much irrelevant the last time around. Sephiroth could exert his influence from anywhere in the world. He's doing it right that moment with geostigma.

And besides: Cloud already has Jenova inside him, so he's always in close proximity to it.

If Rufus is concerned that Cloud could be controlled, but he's still desperate enough to contact him for help, it's better to have him show up on Rufus's terms, find out what he knows, see how he reacts to bringing up sensitive topics, etc.
I brought up proximity to JENOVA because you were using it as a reason not to give JENOVA to Cloud. If that's irrelevant, then there's no reason not to mention that it's in play.
I did not. I said only that Rufus doesn't know if he can trust Cloud for the reasons Lic brought up (i.e. Cloud being controlled by Seph in the past). You then zeroed in on proximity as a factor for reasons known only to you.

Clem wrote: If that was true, he would want Cloud to have have the best chance possible, which would entail explaining more of what he knows immediately. There is no excuse, at all, for not doing that if he had benevolent intentions.
There's plenty of excuses, which I've gone over. =P

Clem wrote: Setting up a win win situation by setting two powerful people that don't like him against each other. If they kill Cloud, he's hoping that he takes one or two of them with him, and then turns them against Vincent, or whoever's next in line.
It's unlikely Rufus even knows how to contact Vincent (no phone, remember?) -- and Vince would be harder to sway than Cloud anyway. He's certainly more unpredictable. This is the guy who Nojima said may not have even got involved with the fight in Edge if Cloud and the others hadn't been part of it.

And no, I find it really, really unlikely that Rufus sees Cloud dying while any SHM are still alive as a win-win in any way, shape or form. He and his Turks already know they can't kill even one SHM (they tried; see: The Kids Are Alright). Again, he's called upon Cloud as a desperate last resort as it is to save the world and stop these maniacs who have been giving him all kinds of hell -- whereas Cloud has been giving him no kinds of hell.

Rufus needs Cloud to win.

Clem wrote: So Rufus isn't afraid at all of being interrogated by Kadaj, but would be unable to hide anything from Cloud?
He isn't trying to get Kadaj to work with him. The question is only an issue where Cloud agrees to an alliance. And if you're Cloud, and you already know these guys think you had something they want, and you already think it's related to the "job" you got a call about (as you insist upon), you're now going to want to know what Rufus has that Sephiroth's spiritual vestiges want -- and if you don't get that answer, then Rufus is back at square one: no alliance.

So, yeah, I feel comfortable saying that it's a dilemma Rufus has to deal with if Cloud agrees to an alliance. There clearly wouldn't be one otherwise.

Clem wrote: If he's banking on Cloud specifically drawing those conclusions...why does he flat out deny exactly that possibility when asked about it?
I didn't say he was banking on it. That was me talking to you about what Cloud should have been able to put together. It's not like he's incapable of discerning anything without Rufus telling him outright "These guys are dangerous (which you've seen). They are superhuman (which you've seen). They can summon monsters (which you've seen). They can get to locations ordinary humans shouldn't be able to (which I've told you). They are dangerous (got it yet?)."

Clem wrote: Not at all. If he had the information right then that was being specifically withheld from him, then you might have a point. But as is, he knows nothing, needs answers, and has no reason to believe they'd target his home or know where it is...
Except, you mean, that they've already ambushed him in the middle of nowhere, address him in a personal manner, and clearly have it in for him for reasons he doesn't know? Except for those reasons?

Clem wrote: With the information he has, it's an easy assumption that they think he's carrying something for Shinra.
Which they may have decided he isn't carrying on his person -- but may have left where he stays. Which was actually the very next notion they acted upon (see: stolen materia and Tifa getting beaten up), so it's not like I'm barking up the wrong tree here.

Clem wrote: Also, they didn't kick his ass, it was basically a draw.
He got toyed with. Chewed up and spit out like a toy too. His ass was kicked pretty hard by any measure.

Hell, they leave while smirking right after calling off the group of monsters under their control that had been about to swarm him. He lost, but they chose to let him go.

Clem wrote: But almost all of them were better than keeping the artefact of doom on your person when the person that wants it knows you have it or know where it is, and you have no means to defend against them.
By what measure is it better? They never found it.

Clem wrote: Which only worked because they guy that lit the fuse wasn't around to stop it.
None of which changes that Cloud had demonstrated a terrible propensity already for handing over such fuses (he'd done that twice; beat the crap out of Aerith once; and nearly killed Aerith himself). A propensity that, again, Rufus has no reason to believe he doesn't still have.

Clem wrote: And they couldn't follow him anyway because...
I guess they had other shit to do after already spending a few hours tracking the kids down in the first place? Why don't you give me your sinister reason for them not going.

It's not because they're too afraid to go fight the SHM and die if that's what it comes to. They do fight them.

It's not because they don't care about the kids at all. They end up saving some of them in a situation that has nothing to do with drawing Cloud into the battle.

It's not because they want to lower Cloud's chances. Again, they know they can't win -- unless they can find a conveniently placed pit into the Lifestream for them to decide to jump into like Kadaj did the first time. And that still didn't put him down permanently.

So with all the ridiculous reasons I suspect -- based on the things you've said previously -- that you might try to bring in already ruled out, what is your reason? Do you have one or are you just being contrary? =P

Clem wrote: Where have they demonstrated superhuman strength, being under Kadaj' control (which doesn't happen until the lake) and how would Reno and Rude know about that?
I never said they did know about it. I said that their going wouldn't have amounted to a hill of dicks because of it.

And the kids demonstrated superhuman strength when they all hopped out of trees and stuck the landing as casually as though they were hopping out of bed.

Clem wrote: Well, he could just not tell him where it is, like he does Kadaj... unless he's somehow afraid Cloud will be able to get it out of him while completely confident that he can withhold the same information from Kadaj?
Then he's back at no alliance. Why aren't you getting that point?

Clem wrote: If JENOVA couldn't be given to Cloud because she could exert her influence on him, which she could do anyway if, as you've argued, geography is irrelevant to this, then it doesn't matter if he's told about her or not...
Thank you. So we're all in agreement that the point you've been harping on all this time isn't the big deal you thought?
__________________
Quexinos wrote: I wish I had been there when Cloud realized he had geostigma. I bet he cried.
hito wrote: man i miss flip phones, they were cool and now everything is a boring slab

Last edited by The Twilight Mexican; 07/19/2017 at 12:48 AM.
The Twilight Mexican is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
Teioh (07/19/2017), Theozilla (07/19/2017)
Old 07/19/2017   #127
LicoriceAllsorts
Default

I just wanted to add a couple of points to Tres' excellent riposte.

1. Cloud is not powerful. He has physical prowess, but he has no personal or political clout. and what's more, he actively eschews it, refusing to get involved with the WRO or Neo-Shinra; he's even reluctant to be the paterfamilias to Tifa's little family. Post OG he settles on a way of life that uses his physically prowess in the simplest way possible and involves minimal contact with people: he crosses dangerous territory to deliver parcels. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no evidence that anyone outside the tiny circle of Avalanche and Rufus & the Turks has any idea that Cloud saved the world. He doesn't appear to be a celebrity or a recognised hero. He's pretty anonymous in the post-Meteor world, which is how he likes it.

And that's because, unlike Zack, "being A Hero" is not something that motivates him, which leads me to:

2.
Cloud : For me, this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past. Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that. I've been thinking. I think we all are fighting for ourselves. For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us. That's what we're fighting for. That's why we keep up this battle for the planet.
Cloud has very personal, one might even say selfish, reasons for wanting to defeat Sephiroth. It just so happens that these selfish motives also enable him to save the world. He says so himself; he is aware of this himself. How is Rufus so different? Rufus is fighting for himself. He wants to fix the harm his father's company did to the planet, clear his family name, atone for the past, and fulfil his destiny as the leader Nojima clearly intended him to be.

What the game was trying to say here, I think, is that even people who achieve heroic things are in fact rarely motivated by pure idealism and self-sacrificing righteousness. Revenge, pride, score-settling, grief, love, friendship, ambition, self-actualisation, excitement and adventure - these things, in their different degrees, drive Cloud as much as Rufus.

3. Why would Rufus want Cloud dead? How would that advantage him in any way? Cloud is not his ally, but Cloud is also not his rival and poses no threat to him.
__________________



<img src=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx25/licoriceallsorts/smallerfiftyshadesofTseng-1.jpg border=0 alt= />

FIFTY SHADES OF TSENG

Last edited by LicoriceAllsorts; 07/19/2017 at 08:31 AM.
LicoriceAllsorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 6:
Cat Rage Room (07/19/2017), Mr. Ite (07/19/2017), Obsidian Fire (07/19/2017), Teioh (07/19/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/19/2017), Theozilla (07/19/2017)
Old 07/19/2017   #128
The Twilight Mexican
Default

Re:celebrity --

This is an odd area where the developers tried to have it both ways. Apparently Cloud, Vincent, Reeve, etc. are widely recognized as "the heroes of the Jenova War" -- but then they shied away from the implications of this for Cloud's private life and allowed him to still be functionally isolated.

I think they could have gotten away with Reeve, Cid, and Yuffie being widely recognized while the others chose to remain unknown, but the way it was done was really clumsy.
__________________
Quexinos wrote: I wish I had been there when Cloud realized he had geostigma. I bet he cried.
hito wrote: man i miss flip phones, they were cool and now everything is a boring slab
The Twilight Mexican is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 4:
LicoriceAllsorts (07/19/2017), Mr. Ite (07/19/2017), Teioh (07/19/2017), Theozilla (07/19/2017)
Old 07/19/2017   #129
Mr. Ite
Default

Yeah they really Heroes Season 2'd it up.
Mr. Ite is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
The Twilight Mexican (07/19/2017)
Old 07/19/2017   #130
Minato
Default

The Twilight Mexican wrote: I already said Cloud went to save them ...

It's starting to feel like you're deliberately not responding to what I'm actually saying. Also annoying how you just whizzed right on by the point about what happened when Bahamut showed up.
Yes, they saved some people in the moment. I'm sure they are capable of that.

And again: Reno was only asked to go to the Ancient's city because Cloud asked him. And Cloud only asked because he was being too much of a bitch to do it himself -- which Reno and Rude clued into, and tried to give Tifa a hand. You seriously can't put what was Cloud's responsibility (Marlene and Denzel) off on the Turks
Reno is the one that orphaned Denzel in the first place and Marlene and Denzel are Tifa's responsibility too. And there are like 30 other kids too. But Cloud is DYING. He was unconcious when they found him in the church, due to the Geostigma they now know he has then he lost conciousness again due to Geostigma he still has and then the rescue attempt was over because he was forced to go alone.

Fork's sake, who do you think got them the intel to begin with? They're the ones who found out where the kids had been taken. What sinister motive would you like to read into that?
I think they want Cloud to fight the Silver-haired men. But even with Rufus and Jenova not physically present at the time, and now that Cloud has a strong incentive to go after Silver-haired men they still aren't willing to tell Cloud anything about they know about what they are and what they seek.

And you want to talk about things working out: How would that have gone down if they had gone? Cloud himself just barely survived, and only that with Vincent's intervention.
Honestly Marlene would probably have enacted her escape sooner, rather then have to take care of it all by 6-year old self.

As for Aerith, once again: She would have had to step in no matter what. You can bring her up in response to my observation that things worked out all you want, but that really just backs up what I'm saying. Better decisions maybe could have been made here and there by multiple people, but the effects of those different decisions would have been no better in the end. Overall, they got a really good outcome.
Resurrecting Sephiroth got Aerith to cure Geostigma, they deserve no credit for this. Everyone on the Planet should be dead on account of Rufus keeping Jenova on his person and then pulling it out in Kadaj's presence.
Minato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/19/2017   #131
Clement Rage
Default

He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.
Call me crazy, but gambling on the fate of the world to avoid difficult conversations doesn't strike me as 'I am sincerely trying to atone for my actions'.

If he was sincerely concerned about JENOVA puppetry, which, by the way, doesn't come up in the movie at all, then he wouldn't want him anywhere near him. That justification just doesn't work.

And it was.
In the North Cave the second time? When?

What, has he held interviews with Cloud and co.? Obviously not.
He has a spy on the team which he is now the financial backer of.

I did not. I said only that Rufus doesn't know if he can trust Cloud for the reasons Lic brought up (i.e. Cloud being controlled by Seph in the past). You then zeroed in on proximity as a factor for reasons known only to you.
But the argument was that he couldn't give JENOVA to Cloud because she might control him. And then you're arguing that she could do that anyway.

It's unlikely Rufus even knows how to contact Vincent (no phone, remember?) -- and Vince would be harder to sway than Cloud anyway. He's certainly more unpredictable. This is the guy who Nojima said may not have even got involved with the fight in Edge if Cloud and the others hadn't been part of it.
The rest of AVALANCHE? The WRO? Any surviving first class SOLDIER lying around?

He isn't trying to get Kadaj to work with him. The question is only an issue where Cloud agrees to an alliance.
No, it is not. If Cloud doesn't agree to an alliance, you still want him to have all the information useful to him in defeating the threat, even if he's not doing it specifically for you.

That was me talking to you about what Cloud should have been able to put together. It's not like he's incapable of discerning anything without Rufus telling him outright "These guys are dangerous (which you've seen). They are superhuman (which you've seen). They can summon monsters (which you've seen). They can get to locations ordinary humans shouldn't be able to (which I've told you). They are dangerous (got it yet?)."
So why deny the possibility?

Except, you mean, that they've already ambushed him in the middle of nowhere, address him in a personal manner, and clearly have it in for him for reasons he doesn't know? Except for those reasons?
Which entails finding out those reasons before leading them back to his home?

New Question: How do they know where the church is? Kadaj calls off the other two while in conversation with the Shinra, where they give him a new location for 'Mother'. The next place Loz searches? The church. So yeah, it's totally Cloud's fault for not securing his home immediately, when he has no idea it's in danger because that is something else Rufus didn't tell him, and he sent them directly there?

Which they may have decided he isn't carrying on his person -- but may have left where he stays. Which was actually the very next notion they acted upon (see: stolen materia and Tifa getting beaten up), so it's not like I'm barking up the wrong tree here
See above. Rufus appears to have given them that location too, but it's obviously Cloud's fault for not assuming that the man asking to see him has deliberately given superpowered killers his home address.

He got toyed with. Chewed up and spit out like a toy too. His ass was kicked pretty hard by any measure.

Hell, they leave while smirking right after calling off the group of monsters under their control that had been about to swarm him. He lost, but they chose to let him go.
Aw, come on. He has a small cut on his forehead and has lost one of his many swords. He comes back from far worse situations over the course of the movie.

By what measure is it better? They never found it.
Because the script said so. It doesn't make it a good idea to carry the artefact of doom in the one place you know the people seeking it are going to come back to. Almost anywhere else would be an improvement.

None of which changes that Cloud had demonstrated a terrible propensity already for handing over such fuses (he'd done that twice; beat the crap out of Aerith once; and nearly killed Aerith himself). A propensity that, again, Rufus has no reason to believe he doesn't still have.
Which may entail not mentioning JENOVA, but still calls into question the rest of the withheld information, if Rufus considers that much a risk.

I guess they had other shit to do after already spending a few hours tracking the kids down in the first place? Why don't you give me your sinister reason for them not going.
I don't know. There's no particular reason not to.

I never said they did know about it. I said that their going wouldn't have amounted to a hill of dicks because of it.

And the kids demonstrated superhuman strength when they all hopped out of trees and stuck the landing as casually as though they were hopping out of bed.
Not particularly superhuman in this universe, considering what other mortals do. Reno and Rude pick up the children back in Edge, before Kadaj releases his control, which only happens after the explosion that they carry them away from.

Then he's back at no alliance. Why aren't you getting that point?
How so? He doesn't have to admit he has JENOVA, just that that seems to be what they're looking for, if that's really an issue. You know what would have helped, if he wanted an alliance? Warning the person he expects to fight to the death before he was attacked by superpowered killers. That is a large part of why Cloud is immediately hostile.

Rufus has in the past endangered the fate of the world in order to secure personal benefit (funding AVALANCHE) This kind of thing isn't even out of character. So when his post turning over a new leaf actions include deliberately endangering an old enemy while giving him not the slightest warning before unleashing superpowered killers on him (and I do not count "I've got work for you"), forgive me for being sceptical.

It does get across how well written he is that we're having this argument, though.
__________________
Octo, and possibly some other people wrote: You should be able to build your side without tearing another down
Clement Rage is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
LicoriceAllsorts (07/19/2017)
Old 07/19/2017   #132
LicoriceAllsorts
Default

I hope I'll be able to keep all the quotes within quotes in order here. I've omitted a few points on which I have nothing to say.
Clement Rage wrote:
He was probably hoping Cloud would kill them the first time they went after him. Then he'd have nothing to explain to the guy who might still be susceptible to Sephiroth's puppetry.

Is that unethical? Well, it's not squeaky clean, but I'd call it more a calculated risk. It's not like he's trying to get Cloud killed. He's left him alone in the year and a half since they last parted ways -- he's just trying to deal with a world-ending crisis, he has few people he can count on, and he's desperate.
Call me crazy, but gambling on the fate of the world to avoid difficult conversations doesn't strike me as 'I am sincerely trying to atone for my actions'.

If he was sincerely concerned about JENOVA puppetry, which, by the way, doesn't come up in the movie at all, then he wouldn't want him anywhere near him. That justification just doesn't work.
As I think we've already pointed out, Rufus is not trying to "avoid a difficult conversation" so much as to navigate a way to safety amongst these various Jenova 'clones', none of which he has reason to 100% trust. Calling Cloud in is not a "let's bring in the heavy artillery and he'll sort it all out for us" move. It's a calculated gamble.


Clement Rage wrote: He has a spy on the team which he is now the financial backer of.
Reeve had turned his back on Shinra and thrown his lot in with Avalanche long before the OG showdown in the Northern Cave. Are we to suppose he tells Rufus everything? Is he stupid? He tells Rufus as little as he can get away with.


Clement Rage wrote: But the argument was that he couldn't give JENOVA to Cloud because she might control him. And then you're arguing that she could do that anyway.
Rufus knows two things. 1. Jenova might be able to control Cloud. 2. Lots of people want to get their hands on Jenova for nefarious purposes, including the SHM. Does proximity make a difference? He doesn't know, but he can test it. So he sends for Cloud, not just to test his reaction to Jenova's presence but for other more pressing reasons. Cloud doesn't react. So now Rufus knows something he didn't know before. He still feels the safest situation is if he's the only person who knows where Jenova is. Other people might choose a different course of action. But choosing the wrong course of action, when all courses of action are a calculated risk, is not of itself proof of malice or ill intent. As, as Tres pointed out, Rufus wasn't wrong.

Clement Rage wrote: The rest of AVALANCHE? The WRO? Any surviving first class SOLDIER lying around?
Hey, for all we know Reeve is the one who suggested Cloud to Rufus. Maybe Rufus went to Reeve and said, "I know this sounds crazy, but so much crazy shit has been happening recently... What if Sephiroth's mind is still alive in the Lifestream and brewing trouble?" What would Reeve say? "Let throw any old SOLDIERS we can find at this problem, because it's not as if either of us know that there's one person who's managed to kill Sephiroth not once but twice." But maybe Rufus should have rounded up some First Classes and sent them to deal with the problem. Or maybe he should have rounded up all his AWOL Turks. Then Cloud wouldn't have had to appear in the film at all.

Clement Rage wrote: No, it is not. If Cloud doesn't agree to an alliance, you still want him to have all the information useful to him in defeating the threat, even if he's not doing it specifically for you.
As I've said before, Rufus shares pretty much all the information he has with Cloud, including his concerns over the fact that some of Jenova's cells are still out there and that Sephiroth's mind is still alive. This isn't crap he's pulled out of his arse. They are real fears he has. The ONE THING he doesn't share with Cloud is the fact that he has Jenova's remains in his lap. Cloud already knew the SHM were seeking "Mother". He didn't need to know precisely where it was in order to defeat them.

Clement Rage wrote: Which entails finding out those reasons before leading them back to his home?
Cloud knows the SHM are connected to Sephiroth. They're looking for Mother and they call him Big Brother. If Cloud can't work that out, then he's as thick as a brick.

Clement Rage wrote: New Question: How do they know where the church is? Kadaj calls off the other two while in conversation with the Shinra, where they give him a new location for 'Mother'. The next place Loz searches? The church. So yeah, it's totally Cloud's fault for not securing his home immediately, when he has no idea it's in danger because that is something else Rufus didn't tell him, and he sent them directly there?

See above. Rufus appears to have given them that location too, but it's obviously Cloud's fault for not assuming that the man asking to see him has deliberately given superpowered killers his home address.
I would be willing to accept in fanfiction that Rufus had given the SHM Cloud's address, but there is nothing in the film script to suggest the writers intended us to assume this. Canonically they are able to read minds to some extent. Perhaps that's how they figured it out. Perhaps they just asked around.


Clement Rage wrote: Aw, come on. He has a small cut on his forehead and has lost one of his many swords. He comes back from far worse situations over the course of the movie.
We'll never know, because Kadaj called off the Shadow Creepers before our Hero could get to grips with them.

Clement Rage wrote: Because the script said so. It doesn't make it a good idea to carry the artefact of doom in the one place you know the people seeking it are going to come back to. Almost anywhere else would be an improvement.
I really am not convinced. The President takes the nuclear codes everywhere with him. Sometimes it's best to keep the artefact of doom where you can see what's happening with it every damned second.


Clement Rage wrote:
Then he's back at no alliance. Why aren't you getting that point?
How so? He doesn't have to admit he has JENOVA, just that that seems to be what they're looking for, if that's really an issue. You know what would have helped, if he wanted an alliance? Warning the person he expects to fight to the death before he was attacked by superpowered killers. That is a large part of why Cloud is immediately hostile.
Agree. Rufus miscalculated the speed at which they would move. Or maybe he didn't, maybe he deliberately sicced them on Cloud or deliberately dropped Cloud in it, hoping that either they or Cloud would die, because, you know, Cloud is totally expendable and/or Rufus is stupid. Or maybe he called Cloud over to Healen because it's easier to manipulate someone in person than over the phone, and also because, you know, Cloud thinks he's dead - and his plan was to warn Cloud about the SHM but they moved too fast for him. And maybe he needed to throw them off the scent and so he said Cloud had the head because a) it's plausible and b) Cloud is the one person in the world who has an excellent change of surviving an encounter with the SHM. Rufus is playing a game of chess here. He's the King, but Cloud is his Queen.

Clement Rage wrote: Rufus has in the past endangered the fate of the world in order to secure personal benefit (funding AVALANCHE) This kind of thing isn't even out of character. So when his post turning over a new leaf actions include deliberately endangering an old enemy while giving him not the slightest warning before unleashing superpowered killers on him (and I do not count "I've got work for you"), forgive me for being sceptical.

It does get across how well written he is that we're having this argument, though.
Cloud has in the past endangered the world by adopting a false persona, assaulting the last surviving Cetra on several occassions (just like Tseng, imagine), stealing - for no raisin - the large Materia which Rufus was planning to use to save the world by destroying Meteor, and handing the Black Materia to Sephiroth so that he could summon Meteor in the first place. So forgive me for being unsurprised if Rufus isn't completely open and above board with Cloud.

What it comes down is that they don't trust each other, but circumstances force them to work together. Rufus is manipulative and Cloud is a depressive dick, but somehow it all comes right in the end, thanks to Aerith.
__________________



<img src=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx25/licoriceallsorts/smallerfiftyshadesofTseng-1.jpg border=0 alt= />

FIFTY SHADES OF TSENG
LicoriceAllsorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 3:
Clement Rage (07/22/2017), Teioh (07/19/2017), Theozilla (07/19/2017)
Old 07/20/2017   #133
LicoriceAllsorts
Default

PS Regarding whether or not Avalanche were widely recognised as the saviours of the planet and “Jenova War Heroes”, I thought I would gather together some relevant evidence:

1. from Case of Denzel
Several months after the bar was lost during Sector Seven’s collapse, Tifa reopened a new Seventh Heaven in Edge. At the time, Johnny was among the masses who couldn’t figure out how to go on, and was moved by the strength of spirit with which Tifa lived. And so, with those thoughts in mind, she became more than just the former object of his unrequited love, but a respected figure in Johnny’s heart.
Johnny is the ultimate Tifa fanboy, yet he knows nothing about her heroism or the so-called "Jenova War". Surely if anybody knew, Johnny would know. But even to him, she is not a famous hero and celebrity, she's simply a woman he admires for her ability to soldier on in the face of adversity.

“You know, kid… if you wanna fight, you can do it any time you want. You don’t need to be in the WRO. Why’s that so important to you?”

“Cloud…”

“What about him?”

“He’s strong because he used to be in the army way back.I wanna be strong like that too”
Even Denzel knows nothing about the role Cloud played in the events of the OG. All he knows is that Cloud used to be in the army.

2. from Case of Yuffie

“You’ve heard of what I’ve been involved in right? What happened to the welcoming party? Where is everyone?”

As Yuffie protested, she briefly talked about how she and her friends summoned the Lifestream and saved the planet. Godo stopped and turned round, looking at her with a dubious face.

“I know nothing about what you’ve done. What I know is that the world got dragged into a mess that the foolish Shinra and crazy SOLDIERs caused. In the end, the universe’s will was to end that dispute and it summoned Meteor but, our planet defended itself by releasing the Lifestream and destroyed it—That is the way I understand it.”

Godo spoke with a serious face.

“The universe’s will? Who came up with that stupid story?”

“That is my interpretation. Perhaps the truth is different but, what I know is enough. And Yuffie. Don’t go about saying you were involved. The effects of the Lifestream is vast. Even though people understand it saved the planet, there is still some who are unhappy at what has happened.” [Godo is referring to the destruction caused by the Lifestream and to the Geostigma]
3. from Case of Tifa

The first day of Seventh Heaven’s opening was a great success. Corel wine was something that you could make yourself if you felt like it, and the food was nothing special either. Because of the limited ingredients they had, they couldn’t make anything special. Even so, people sought places like this. A place where they could be with friends while drinking. A place where they could get over the depression of reality or maybe forget about reality and think of the future. People who didn’t have money were allowed to trade items to get a drink. They even prepared all sorts of juices, so that children could go in too. However, they only served the ones that got Marlene’s seal of approval. She had become an indispensable presence in the bar. At night, before it got too late, she worked as a waitress. Customers who’d had too much were sent home without a second thought....

Cloud wasn’t the best at socializing, or more accurately, he was downright awful at it. Yet, he would go negotiate with people to obtain the ingredients they needed, everyday, without objection or complaint. The process of negotiating carried more value than the price he paid. Cloud was taking small steps forward.
At no point is it suggested that the success of the new Seventh Heaven owes anything to the fame of the people who run it. There's no hint that any of the customers have any idea Tifa, Barret and Cloud saved the world. The new bar is a hit because it serves Corel wine, it's a place to forget your troubles, Tifa creates a good atmosphere, and later because of Tifa's cooking. Nor is there any hint that Cloud, Tifa or Barret ever tell anyone about the role they played in the Meteor Crisis.

I've got no quotes from Case of Barret, but nowhere does he tell anyone about his involvement with the Meteor Crisis and nobody ever recognises him as a saviour of the world or refers to him as a hero.

4. from Case of Nanaki:
At the end of their journey with Cloud and the others to defeat Sephiroth and save the planet, Nanaki returned to his homeland, Cosmo Canyon. The people of the valley welcomed him with open arms after the epic battle, and listened intently to the account of his adventures. Nanaki was proud of himself, and everything they had achieved.
So Nanaki and Yuffie are the only two who share the story of their heroism with their people, and Nanaki is the only one who is celebrated by his people for his role in saving the world.

5. In Case of Shinra, Tseng recognises Cloud's significant without really understanding it.
But this is before the Meteor Crisis.

6. And finally, from The Lateral Biography:

Seventh Heaven, a diner we often used for work meetings, was located on this pleasant little street. Its beautiful proprietress was a woman in her mid-twenties called Tifa, who had a fine ‘endowment’. Helping her out around the shop was a little girl called Marlene, who despite her moments of sass had a face that guaranteed she would grow up to be another beauty…

The door opened, and a man came in. A steely-eyed, blonde man with a well groomed, but despondent face….
Evan has no idea that Cloud and Tifa are anything other than a bar-keeper and a delivery man. And they never tell him. To be honest, I haven’t combed through the whole of novella for every relevant piece of evidence, so maybe he does find out later, but it’s pretty clear that prior to AAC, Avalanche are not known or celebrated as saviours of the planet.

The only mention I can find of “Jenova War Hero” is in Dirge of Cerberus, and the only person ever referred to as a JWH is Reeve himself, so I am inclined to dismiss it as either a case of Hiroki Chiba not talking to Nojima, or, if the continuity error is deliberate, then it’s a piece of canny image doctoring on Reeve’s part. I suppose it’s also possible that “Jenova War” is intended to refer to the battle versus the SHM, which was played out in public, unlike the battle in the Northern Cave, which had no witnesses. But I somehow doubt it.

tl;dr: the bulk of canon evidence suggests that very few people on the planet knew about the role Avalanche played in defeating Sephiroth and ending the Meteor Crisis. The "Jenova War" is only mentioned in DoC, so either it's a continuity error or it's a concept coined post AC.
__________________



<img src=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx25/licoriceallsorts/smallerfiftyshadesofTseng-1.jpg border=0 alt= />

FIFTY SHADES OF TSENG
LicoriceAllsorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 3:
Mr. Ite (07/20/2017), Teioh (07/20/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/20/2017)
Old 07/20/2017   #134
ForceStealer
Default

You're probably right, although it's not too hard to believe Reeve told the story to his WRO troops, and so that's why THEY know.
__________________


hitoshura wrote: Don't belittle my peoples, bitch. We work hard and we do what we're told. And might possibly be Scottish.
ultima espio wrote: I'm not sure if it was a BOMB, it could have been MAKO, KING, BEST, or ORBS.
ForceStealer is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 3:
LicoriceAllsorts (07/20/2017), Teioh (07/20/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/20/2017)
Old 07/20/2017   #135
LicoriceAllsorts
Default

I agree. Reeve has every reason to blow his own trumpet. Barret, Tifa and Cloud have their own reasons for preferring to remain anonymous. Yuffie would quite like to be famous but quickly realises there are more important things. Nanaki gets the conquering hero reception from the people of Cosmo Canyon and then also moves on with his life. As for Cid, I think going into space was the bigger deal for him!
__________________



<img src=http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx25/licoriceallsorts/smallerfiftyshadesofTseng-1.jpg border=0 alt= />

FIFTY SHADES OF TSENG
LicoriceAllsorts is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 4:
Clement Rage (07/22/2017), ForceStealer (07/21/2017), Teioh (07/20/2017), The Twilight Mexican (07/20/2017)
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:04 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.