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Pre-Crisis Final Fantasy VII All content for Before Crisis and Crisis Core focusing on the 8 years, leading directly up until the events of Final Fantasy VII.

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Old 01/17/2017   #16
Tashasaurous
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote: Tasha, of course we realise they're Japanese games. What the Engineer is saying is that this is one of those places where the culture gap between East and West becomes really apparent. I don't know if people raised in the Japanese culture would find A, G and S's passivity and loyalty admirable, but I think most western people find it hard to understand, and admire them much more when they assert their individuality and needs to try to carve their own path.
Oh, right. Sorry. Good point.

And my shorter name here is Tash, please, if you don't mind.
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Old 01/17/2017   #17
Clement Rage
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The three of them have a lot of history we don't get to see. Much of what we get is that scene on the cannon, which is meant to be a friendly spar that got out of hand.

They're soldiers, if they walk away, they're deserting, and Shinra will just have them killed. The Turks can (and do, once) walk away any time they want, because their jobs entail the necessary skills to stay hidden. SOLDIERs can't, they're huge celebrities with distinctive glowing eyes. They can't hide, and running involves cutting ties with everything they care about (see: Zack on the run). They have to stay running for the rest of their lives, which is miserable, or fight against Shinra (including their best friends -also miserable. Also, we see with Zack that Shinra can have them killed if it wants. The first people that will be sent after them to kill them are their own friends and colleagues, fellow SOLDIER. One of the first choices they have to make if they desert is 'how willing am I to kill my best friends to survive.'

Genesis does desert, which gets him nothing. He has to resort to hit and run attacks because even with many fellow defectors on his side, he can't really do damage to Shinra. It's not like they have the power to do whatever they want.

If he'd said to them, "I'm sick of this, I'm retiring to Costa del Sol to perfect my embroidery," how could they have prevented him?
Air strike? 'Oh, sorry, we got the co ordinates wrong again,' Or just being willing to spend enough soldiers to get it done.

It's not just a question of walking away, end of story.

He didn't even exert himself particularly to save his friends; he simply refrained from killing them and sent Zack to do the job instead.
What could he have done? Slaughtered everyone else in SOLDIER? He didn't send Zack at all, he just couldn't bring himself to kill his best friends. If Zack refused, the guy next in line would be sent, and would either kill or be killed. Is it an easy option to pick which of your best friends you want to watch die?
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Old 01/21/2017   #18
Harley Quinn
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote: Harley, I'm replaying CC myself right now and I see what you mean. The friendship between A, G and S is poisoned by Genesis' envy, but I think we can see other hints that their friendship is real: Angeal giving Sephiroth a long lecture about honour, and Sephiroth submitting to it; Sephiroth's (and Angeal's) concern for Genesis' health and Sephiroth's pain at being rejected as a donor; the conversation between Sephiroth and Genesis in Hollander's lab; the fact that Genesis has "beaten" Loveless into Sephiroth's head... They often act more like brothers than like friends, but the bond they have feels real to me (and that's saying something, because I dislike Genesis as a character).

Is Angeal disloyal to Shinra? One wonders why he should be loyal to Shinra in the first place, but he does try constantly to balance his divided loyalties. As Zack points out, Shinra are wrong to issue an extermination order against him because he fought on their side in the 'battle of Midgar'. I always thought the worst thing about Angeal was his determination to make Zack (and nobody but Zack) kill him - aka liberate him from his unbearable existence - although I suppose that could be interpreted as a determination to make Zack see the truth about Shinra.

Sephiroth is an odd one in CC. He does truly seem to care about the few people he actually cares about; he seems to be trying to tell Genesis that he values their friendship more than his own fame. He's quite nice to Zack. But he doesn't seem to get much pleasure out of the one thing he does really, really well: killing. Maybe it's just too easy for him. The only time he seems to be enjoying himself is when he's fighting Zack in Nibelheim, and maybe when he's slicing the Junon Canon to bits.

If he'd actually decided to leave Shinra, what would Shinra have done? He wasn't deteriorating, and he was an unstoppable super-weapon. If he'd said to them, "I'm sick of this, I'm retiring to Costa del Sol to perfect my embroidery," how could they have prevented him? Given his extraordinary powers, it's really odd to see how little will of his own he had. He didn't even exert himself particularly to save his friends; he simply refrained from killing them and sent Zack to do the job instead. Wouldn't it have been more heroic of him to take Zack's seat on that mission to Nibelheim, and give Angeal the death he wanted so that Zack wouldn't have to do it? But I suppose he was raised to be malleable and obedient.
Hey everyone! I haven't been on the boards for a couple of days due to a horrible bug (stupid British weather!) I do hope everyone is ok Anyways getting back to the topic.

I really like your summarisation Licorice and makes more sense. And I agree that Sephiroth truly could have left if he had wanted too and I know other people have said that ShinRa would not of allowed it with him being a famous person from the company.
But the thing is I don't agree with that because arguably apart from the president and Rufus, Sephiroth must have been the most famous person in ShinRa so I highly doubt that ShinRa would openly go after Sephiroth. I certainly think they'd keep a an eye on him for sure (especially Hojo) But openly seek him to be destroyed for leaving ShinRa? No, he was too much of an asset for them.
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Old 01/21/2017   #19
The Twilight Mexican
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And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.
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Old 01/21/2017   #20
LicoriceAllsorts
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I don't even see how they could have killed him. He is canonically capable of bringing down a helicopter from a mile away, slicing dragons in two with a single stroke, and likewise killing a score of enemies in like 10 seconds. He moves so fast you can't even see him. And the thing is, I get where his super strength and super speed and so on comes from, because those are physical qualities - but what about his super ability with materia? Did he train up to be able to do that, or was he born with it?

It's just way easier to leave him alone than to try to take him out.
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Old 01/21/2017   #21
Minato
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Sephiroth can leave and survive, but it would mean no longer being the big hero that Shinra is spreading the word he is. Given that he decided he was the Chosen One for being part Ancient and when he finds out that's wrong he decided being part Jenova makes him worthy of being God he has a bit of an ego on him. Sephiroth wants to be able to believe he is in the right and whatever Shinra did in the past, Genesis was the one killing civilians, turning his comrades into monsters and terrorising the Planet in the present.
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Old 01/21/2017   #22
Harley Quinn
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The Twilight Mexican wrote: And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.

Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?
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Old 01/21/2017   #23
Harley Quinn
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote: I don't even see how they could have killed him. He is canonically capable of bringing down a helicopter from a mile away, slicing dragons in two with a single stroke, and likewise killing a score of enemies in like 10 seconds. He moves so fast you can't even see him. And the thing is, I get where his super strength and super speed and so on comes from, because those are physical qualities - but what about his super ability with materia? Did he train up to be able to do that, or was he born with it?

It's just way easier to leave him alone than to try to take him out.
Can Sephiroth use magic without materia? I don't know why I got into my head that he can?

Sephiroth vs ShinRa. Forget his abilities. Imagine all the super fans swarming to rally around him, ShinRa would be over in a day
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Old 01/21/2017   #24
Harley Quinn
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Minato wrote: Sephiroth can leave and survive, but it would mean no longer being the big hero that Shinra is spreading the word he is. Given that he decided he was the Chosen One for being part Ancient and when he finds out that's wrong he decided being part Jenova makes him worthy of being God he has a bit of an ego on him. Sephiroth wants to be able to believe he is in the right and whatever Shinra did in the past, Genesis was the one killing civilians, turning his comrades into monsters and terrorising the Planet in the present.

Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.
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Old 01/22/2017   #25
Minato
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Harley Quinn wrote: Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.
Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?
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Old 01/22/2017   #26
The Twilight Mexican
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Harley Quinn wrote:
The Twilight Mexican wrote: And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.
Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?
Together, maybe the Tsviets and the Restrictors from Deepground could have pulled off beating him. That's about it, though.
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Old 01/22/2017   #27
Harley Quinn
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Minato wrote:
Harley Quinn wrote: Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.
Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?
To be fair that's at the beginning. Sephiroth and Zack do begin to find out about the dark side of ShinRa and do you truly believe Sephiroth wasn't aware of the dark side of ShinRa before Genesis left? Look at his attitude towards Hojo for example.
I truly believe Sephiroth knew more about ShinRa than he let on. He just chose to ignore it as it was all he knew. Not for one second do I buy that he thought ShinRa were a good, moral, ethical company.
And he could've left it didn't mean he had to join Genesis (who was morally corrupt as well) he could've left ShinRa and carved his own path. Whether that be fighting against or ShinRa or opening a shop that sold hair products
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Old 01/22/2017   #28
Harley Quinn
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The Twilight Mexican wrote:
Harley Quinn wrote:
The Twilight Mexican wrote: And too darn strong to be worth going after unless he was actively opposing them.
Even if he was actively opposing them what could they have done to stop him?
Together, maybe the Tsviets and the Restrictors from Deepground could have pulled off beating him. That's about it, though.
Ahh DoC I try to forget about that. It would've been interesting to see who came out on top. I know Nomura said there was nothing stronger than Sephy but when playing DoC I really did question this. Look Nero's crazy powers for example.
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Old 01/22/2017   #29
LicoriceAllsorts
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Harley Quinn wrote:
Minato wrote:
Harley Quinn wrote: Before Sephiroth's madness I never took that he liked being the big hero that ShinRa held him up to be. He knew he was a good killing machine, the best but in a situation where he wasn't fighting for a reason. So I think he was pretty lonely. But still the reason why he remained loyal to the company especially after finding out about the experiments on A and G is pretty mind boggling to me.
Being aloof about it after the fact doesn't tell us much, we don't see him when he is earning the rep fighting wars for Shinra. And again, Genesis was the one that killed every person in Banora, turned tons of SOLDIERs that willingly defected with him into his mindless clones, led an multiple assaults on Midgar that attacked civilians indiscriminately. Shinra is the one protecting people in Crisis Core. Hollander led the experiments on Genesis, and he's currently on Genesis' side. Why is it hard to believe Sephiroth or Zack would stick with Shinra in this crisis instead of walking and thus letting Genesis burn cities to the ground for his revenge?
To be fair that's at the beginning. Sephiroth and Zack do begin to find out about the dark side of ShinRa and do you truly believe Sephiroth wasn't aware of the dark side of ShinRa before Genesis left? Look at his attitude towards Hojo for example.
I truly believe Sephiroth knew more about ShinRa than he let on. He just chose to ignore it as it was all he knew. Not for one second do I buy that he thought ShinRa were a good, moral, ethical company.
And he could've left it didn't mean he had to join Genesis (who was morally corrupt as well) he could've left ShinRa and carved his own path. Whether that be fighting against or ShinRa or opening a shop that sold hair products
How would Sephiroth even know what moral and ethical meant? Angeal seems to have been raised in a home where old-fashioned honour morality meant everything*, but from whom would the child Sephiroth have learnt these things?

* And that backfired on him because he felt honour-bound to Shinra.

Zack obviously has some clear notions about ethics: while he fights against Wutai when they pose a threat to peace and safety (or at least, it seems to Zack that they do), he also thinks they are fighting for a respectable cause and doesn't feel comfortable killing them because of that. He will avoid killing them if he can. He is also willing to donate money to the cause of Wutai's recovery. This seems to be rather like the USA's attitude to Japan or Germany (if we can separate Germany from Nazis) after the war.
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Old 01/22/2017   #30
Harley Quinn
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I agree that his notions would've been clouded due to his upbringing. But I'm pretty sure he knew between right and wrong and finding out about Hollander's experiments on people and turning them into monsters and he knew before Hollander left that Hollander would've been being funded by ShinRa.
I'm not saying Sephiroth had a true understating or morality or ethics because of his upbringing but he didn't have a complete lack of understanding of it.
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