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Final Fantasy VII Remake The remake of FFVII announced at E3 on June 15th, 2015 -- OUR WHOLE LIVES HAVE BEEN LEADING UP TO THIS MOMENT!!

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Old 07/04/2015   #121
Cthulhu
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Guys, I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down a bit; there's nothing really bad in here yet, but I can see it escalating pretty fast. Don't take things personally, and don't be argumentative for the sake of argument. Also, IMO, whether it's realistic or not... doesn't really matter, we all play video games because it's not realistic, else we'd all be playing My Job That I Don't Really Like Simulator 2015 right now,

Also, use more cookie monsters.
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Old 07/07/2015   #122
Starling
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hleV wrote: I never questioned anyone's desire to stick with turn-based system. It's obvious that you and quite a few others would prefer it that way. However, the only valid reason for that is mere preference for turn-based mechanics, nostalgia or desire to not have the Remake changed. You simply don't care enough about in-universe logic portrayed well enough in the gameplay and the existence of Gameplay & Story Segregation for you is an excuse to have as ridiculous gameplay mechanics as you wish. Good for you. Let's carry on.
This isn't about you denying others wanting turn-based combat, it's about you claiming those opinions aren't valid. You asked me:

hleV wrote: Why are you so insistant on keeping all the illogical gameplay stuff?
About why I and many others would want to keep gameplay elements you find "illogical". It's not about nostalgia or change, it's about staying true to the game it's based on. You can't just scrap everything if you want the remake to live up to the original. You haven't actually refuted any of my arguments; just dismissed them as invalid without elaboration. Just because someone would rather keep turn-based combat doesn't mean they don't care about the way the setting works. Saying otherwise is essentially devaluing their opinion simply because you disagree.

Instances of gameplay and story segregation are acceptable breaks from reality in order to provide a method of gameplay that is enjoyable. By definition, they aren't required to be a 100% accurate representation of how things occur in-universe, but are still relevant to it. Another problem with what you're saying is that you draw arbitrary lines of what gameplay elements are acceptable (levels and stats) and which ones are not (materia you don't think can exist in the setting, turn-based combat). What makes levels and stats more acceptable than the stuff you don't want? Is it that they're essential to any proper RPG? Why is gameplay and story segregation acceptable for those but not other staples of the RPG genre? That's flawed logic (AKA a fallacy).


hlev wrote: Somehow it's so hard for such fans to think of new ways that the Remake could work. Photo-realistic graphics is somehow okay, but a more realistic approach in gameplay is a no no? If SE is to only consider TLS members when making the Remake, then it'll be a disaster. Obviously most active TLS members are here due to them liking the OG quite a lot. Your statistic of "who shares my opinion and who doesn't" is unreliable as far as I'm concerned, and you should really stop using fake statistics as an argument instead of actually giving a proper one.
There are a lot of FF7 fans on TLS, seeing as FF7 is the main subject of this forum. That's not a quantity of people you can just dismiss. They represent a valid sample pool for the opinions of the fandom. You have no way of backing up your claim that the remake would be a disaster if SE took into account the opinions of the fans, the majority of which want the remake to remain faithful to the original, as a remake should be. If they had to disregard all the opinions on this forum, then by posting here, your opinion would have to be disregarded as well. In case you haven't noticed, it's not so much that you want real-time combat that's the issue, it's that you seem to think any other option is unreasonable and think less of the people who disagree with you, going by how you've been phrasing your posts. You also haven't given any solid arguments, as you just keep saying everything is unrealistic and "illogical", which is like saying "I'm right, therefore you're wrong, no need to debate any further", with really doesn't support your side of the argument at all. You should stop using fallacious arguments and calling it logic.

You implied the portion of the fandom that would want turn-based combat was insignificant. I refuted that point, giving my observations of how there are more people who want or at least wouldn't mind turn-based combat than you seem to think. If you want statistics, Flintlock made a detailed survey about what FF7 fans want out of the remake, with most entries coming from non forum members.

hlev wrote: I don't know, I'm pretty sure I use them correctly (as long as we're aware I'm talking about FF7, rather than real world) whilst being well aware they are not the same.
Unless you find a thesaurus entry that shows realistic/logical and unrealistic/illogical are synonyms, you aren't. As I go into detail later in the post, your use of realistic and illogical when comparing the gameplay to both real life and FF7's setting, leading to unnecessary ambiguity unless proper clarification is made.

hlev wrote: Not convinced.
I've named examples. You have the burden of proof to refute them. To clarify:

You dismiss arguments as irrelevant instead of actually disproving them. (Appeal to stone)

You insist that the gameplay has to change because you think it's illogical, simply because you don't understand the appeal of it. (Argument from [personal] incredulity)

You use terms like realistic and illogical in reference to real life and then claim you were only referring to FF7's setting. (Hedging)

You make hypocritical statements such as comparing the game to real life, then claiming that you only ever compare the gameplay to the setting. (Kettle logic)

Your self-righteous belief that your opinion is worth more than that of others. (Moral high ground)

Insisting that something doesn't make sense for reasons that have been repeatedly contested (proof by assertion) and expecting more elaboration without having actually refuted the counter-arguments (moving the goal posts)

Arguing that gameplay and story segregation as applied to the combat system is an insufficient reason for it to stay the way it is without actually elaborating. (Special pleading)

I highly doubt I've even listed all of them but you should get the point.


Some of those fallacies are shown in this exchange:
hleV wrote: Materia such as Mime, Cover, Long Range, Transform (way too unreal), Exit, Added Cut, Magic Counter would not go well with mechanics where you can move and attack when you want, as it would be making automated actions for you. But even with that I would be fine as long as I don't have to wait because the game said so.
Starling wrote: I don't see how a spell that is essentially teleporting you or your opponent out of a fight (exit materia), a spell to copy whatever copiable action was last made (mime) and a spell to turn people tiny or into frogs (transform) are unable to coexist with spells to shoot lightning, ice, fire and such.
hleV wrote: Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?
Tetsujin wrote: Irrelevant since it is a game.
Starling wrote: As has been stated already, that is irrelevant.
hlev wrote: It is relevant to what I'm discussing.
You listed a bunch of materia you thought should be removed. I pointed out they could coexist with the other materia in the setting. You dismissed it simply because it doesn't make sense to you, citing it wouldn't work in the real world. Tetsujin pointed out that was irrelevant on account of it being in a game, where what is and isn't possible in the real world is irrelevant. When I agreed with Tetsujin, you insisted it was relevant to what you were discussing. In this exchange, you ignored my counter-argument without actually countering it and disregarded the point that real world logic doesn't apply to what can and can't be done in FF7's setting.


And this one
The Man wrote: I still don't really get why anyone would think it breaks suspension of disbelief to have a turn-based battle system in PS4-quality graphics, but not in PS1-quality graphics.
hleV wrote: PS1-quality graphics break suspension of disbelief on its own. There is no point of good graphics if it's instantly ruined by very unrealistic gameplay. Well, besides "omg it looks nice", which I don't think SE limits themselves to.
The Man wrote: That doesn't make the games bad, and if that breaks suspension of belief for you then it sounds like the problem is with you rather than with the game.
hleV wrote: Oh, sorry, my bad. FF7 and Mario are real.
You sarcastically dismissed what The Man said, saying that FF7 and Mario aren't real without actually addressing the fact that the OG's combat system breaks your suspension of disbelief is an issue with you, not the game.


hlev wrote: I can pick what's more logical and realistic and what's not, though.
No you can't, as that is stating subjective opinion as fact, which it's not. Logic and realism is not dependent of your opinion. It is or isn't regardless of what you say. Therein lies one of the biggest flaws of what you've been saying. You say thing like:

hleV wrote: But battle system itself? It has to be accomodated for the greatly improved graphics.
hleV wrote: It should not stay that way as far as I'm concerned. There is no good reason for it to stay the same way.
Where you make your opinion out to be the only way, which it isn't.

hlev wrote: If I have to go through such effort just for you, when I had told numerous times that I'm not talking about real world, then I would rather just stop replying altogether.
It takes less effort to use more accurate wording than it does to go realism (in FF7 world!), which comes across as condescending. No one's forcing you to reply either, you know.

hlev wrote: OG having back attacks and attacks from both sides in no way passes it all as realistic. The ability to attack itself could be considered a relevance. In the bigger picture it's still nothing but a mess if you attempt to compare it to how it would work in the real setting.
Back attacks are relevant in that the characters are on those sides of the opponent before the battle starts and stay that way once it does, making it a case of gameplay and story integration. As I've said, the combat system the OG uses doesn't have to be realistic, nor is it trying to be. That doesn't make it a mess.

hlev wrote: And I literally wrote in my last post that materia being just OP is not the problem.
You're missing the point. I bolded the part where you said OP materia doesn't exist in the game setting, signifying that was the main focus of my reply. To be absolutely, unambiguously clear on all points concerning materia:

General information
On the way up to the reactor, Sephiroth explains how materia is formed and is used. He explains that naturally formed materia is rare, only occurring in
mako springs, which are generally found in remote, hard to reach places. In the OG, the materia caves are only accessible by various colored chocobo, meaning most people can't get there.

From a gameplay perspective, those materia are rewards for spending all that time and effort breeding chocobos, something that takes hours to accomplish. When a game makes you spend that much time to complete something optional, the reward is generally something really powerful so you won't feel like it was a waste of time. In such a case, the reward may or may not make sense in-universe, as its primary goal prioritizes gameplay. Because of this, it is perfectly acceptable for it to fall under gameplay and story segregation.

According to Cloud's explanation of materia to Barret, equipping materia generally increases your magic but lowers your physical strength, making it best not to overuse it. this seems to indicate someone has to have good physical strength to begin with if they don't want to be too hindered by the effects of equipping multiple materia.


Magic and Summon materia
All magic materia works simply by casting a spell that inflicts an opponent with either an attack or status, which works perfectly fine within the setting. In CC, we've seen Genesis use some variation of Fire and Angeal use Quake. In the OG, we've seen Meteor and Holy, who are both magic materia by virtue of casting black and white magic spells respectively, which is the type of magic that falls into this category. Zangan's letter mentions he used Cure spells to try to heal Tifa. While it can't be said for sure, there's a chance Ifalna escaped Shinra HQ by using an Exit materia. In ACC, we see Loz use Quake, as well as a combination of Flare and Ultima with Yazoo when creating that large explosion to try to kill Cloud.

Summon materia as a whole has been firmly established in the setting, as CC shows both Ifrit and Bahamut Fury in cutscenes, ACC shows Kadaj summon another version of Bahamut and the OG has Priscilla give Cloud the Shiva summon as an unskipable part of the game. BC also features a potentially world-ending summon called Zirconiade, which requires specific support materia to summon and ends up defeated by the Turks.


Support and Independent materia
Support materia functions by linking it to a compatible materia to gain an effect you normally wouldn't have. While many of these function like abilities, there is no need to create a separate interface to equip them without calling them materia, simply because you refuse to accede to gameplay and story segregation. I've already explained that doing so would be redundant, as all it would do is make the gameplay less streamlined. In an ability based system, you'd need to add a redundant menu option and keep the materia's effect linked to a particular character rather than have it be freely equipable to anyone.

Independent materia function a lot like support materia but without needing to be linked in order to offer their passive effect. While some of them (ex: __ plus) are strictly for gameplay purposes, others, such as chocobo lure, enemy lure and enemy away are perfectly capable of functioning much as they do in-universe. Again,, there is no need to stop calling them materia and making a separate menu just because you find their existence in gameplay to be "illogical". In DoC, the Protomateria seems to function like an independent materia.


Command materia
Some command materia, such as Mime, Sense, Manipulate and Enemy Skill function much like magic materia does, in that you're basically casting a spell in much the same way. We've already gone over how mime is only as useful as what you can copy, making it something you can't solely rely on in combat. Enemy Skill suffers a similar problem in that it's only as useful as the spells it contains, which you get by surviving being hit by them, meaning all of them are survivable in some way. Enemy Skill therefore isn't something you can solely rely on either, as useful as it can be. In a setting where multiple people can survive things like being impaled by Sephiroth, falling from ridiculous heights and a bunch other things, it's not surprising strong materia that doesn't explicitly exist to destroy the world can be countered by others. In fact, even an explicitly world-ending spell such as Meteor have been shown to have spell existing specifically to counter it in the form of Holy.

None of these are things characters will be able to do from the beginning, nor are they things they would be able to do permanently once they acquire the materia. I see no benefit to changing this aspect of gameplay beyond your refusal to accept gameplay and story segregation.

I've also explained that from an in-universe perspective, it's possible to see it as the materia allowing someone to do something they could potentially do normally (ex: steal) with greater skill than they could without it, or in a way that they flat-out wouldn't be able to do normally. For all we know in-universe, steal works by trying to teleport an opponent's possessions into your hand or pocket.


hlev wrote: I will agree that in my examples of why it doesn't work I enforce an assumption that the user has the materia and whatnot in question. However the point still stands: rationally thinking, some materia in OG is simply too out there to actually exist and work the same way in the real setting.
We've already been over how some materia is there for gameplay purposes and how that doesn't mean they have to be removed from the game.

hlev wrote: I read the whole thing. I simply excluded it from the quote because it was irrelevant and needlessly taking up virtual space of my post, as the content was simply an expansion of your irrelevant point addresses in the first sentence.
You called it pointless and are currently calling my point irrelevant, which isn't something people do when excluding part of a post to shorten their reply. It is relevant to what's being discussed, as I've explained in my previous post. I'm not seeing you address how disrespectful it is and how treating what people say to you in that manner isn't conductive to having an actual discussion, nor the fact that it's a fallacy.

hlev wrote: When did I compare it to real world? When mentioning that most fiction has most of their logic based on real world, FF7 not being an exception?
My point in bringing up that quote was that you said real-world logic can't be dismissed, even in a fictional setting. Now, you're dismissing anything I say about the real world as irrelevant to the discussion. I've just explained in my previous post in what ways you reference the real world and why it's relevant to the discussion, despite your claims. FF7 is not the real world. We've been over this with all the stuff that exists in the setting that wouldn't be able to in real life. Since you still don't see where you bring up the real world:

hleV wrote: I hope that rather than RPG idea in general, we're arguing turn-based and not-so-real-time combat where your actions are limited and do not portray how your controlled characters would/could behave in a real life scenario in order to be more efficient.
hleV wrote: Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?
As I've said in my previous post, any use of the word realism and realistic in this context references the real world as well and since you use realistic and illogical interchangeably, uses of illogical also end up being indirect comparisons to the real world.

Incidentally:

hleV wrote: I don't find lack of logic that fun. Perhaps in an environment that didn't pretend to be at all serious and realistic, I wouldn't mind. In a photorealistic version of FF7? I want my damn logic, in gameplay and otherwise.
hleV wrote: No, FF7 doesn't pretend to be set in our world. It still has logic.
hleV wrote: You can't disregard all real world logic only because FF7 world is not real world.
hleV wrote: I am not comparing this to our world.
You can't have it both ways.
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Old 07/07/2015   #123
The Man
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I just noticed I never got an answer to this so I'm going to quote it.
The Man wrote: Action RPGs date back to the 8-bit era (if you count Zelda II) or possibly the 16-bit era (if you don't). So no, Tetusjin's point really does stand. Why was turn-based combat an acceptable break from reality in the 32-bit era but not in the modern era?

edit: Actually I was wrong; action RPGs date to way before Zelda II. The genre is as old as I am.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Old 07/07/2015   #124
hleV
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The Man wrote: Action RPGs date back to the 8-bit era (if you count Zelda II) or possibly the 16-bit era (if you don't). So no, Tetusjin's point really does stand. Why was turn-based combat an acceptable break from reality in the 32-bit era but not in the modern era?

edit: Actually I was wrong; action RPGs date to way before Zelda II. The genre is as old as I am.
It can always be acceptable. The question is by whom and how much. Back in the day the graphics weren't good and we used to play as these chibi characters. That alone lets us understand that things aren't potrayed realistically (the reason would be technical limits, creators' desire to keep it that way or something else, it doesn't matter). This allows one to ignore all the silly things and simply enjoy the game the way it is. Because who cares, right?

To some, that is no longer the case in modern times with modern graphics. Now if we get this photorealistic game and it happens to have this outdated battle system with silly unrealistic (even if fun) mechanics, surely it will feel off. Now if said mechanics are fun, to some it might be enough while others would like it be fun and accomodated for photorealistic graphics.

Old games: unrealistic graphics - don't care about unrealistic gameplay.
New games: realistic graphics - weird to see unrealistic gameplay.

That is not to say that the new gameplay has to be super realistic. It just has to make more sense compared to the environment that is presented in the game. It's natural that in a realistic environment you would expect more realism out of the gameplay. As long as it is enjoyable, of course.

EDIT: By realistic I of course mean realistic to the setting in question.

Last edited by hleV; 07/07/2015 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 07/07/2015   #125
The Man
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You still haven’t explained how any of FFVII’s combat doesn’t make sense in FFVII’s setting when gameplay and story segregation is taken into account. Starling did a pretty good job demolishing your claims above.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Old 07/07/2015   #126
hleV
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I already gave examples why it doesn't make sense when compared to the real setting. What is "when gameplay and story segregation is taken into account"? It's a term used for inconsistency between gameplay and story. Why would it be taken into account? I want that incosinstency lessened (greatly) because that would make the game look more realistic.

Leaving Starling for later. I'm at work now and don't have the change to focus on one thing for too long, and I prefer writing a post in one go so as not to forget what I'm writing about.
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Old 07/07/2015   #127
The Man
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Because it’s a fucking game. The whole point of a game is to be fun, and as I pointed out, sometimes this contradicts real-world logic. If you’re looking for perfect internal consistency, you’re in the wrong medium.

Besides, it’s already been demonstrated that the internal consistency of FFVII is much, much greater than you’ve been claiming it is, yet you go on making those claims as though they hadn’t just been demolished.

I don’t even much care whether the remake uses turn-based combat or not, as long as they don’t remove any content, but your arguments against it are just weak.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Old 07/07/2015   #128
Wolf_
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Are we not simply arguing over an opinion? Ergo it will be never ending. We all have our own personal wants or wishes that we should express by all means but they are opinions only so can't we just accept we all like different things and move on? Remember, there's no such thing as a correct opinion... Unless it's mine.
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Old 07/07/2015   #129
The Man
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The primary problem here is that hleV has been presenting opinions as though they are objective truths.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Old 07/07/2015   #130
Wolf_
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I'm well aware that his arguments have more holes than a teabag I just don't fancy getting banned with the response I was originally going to put. Be the adult and walk away from it. I understand what you both are saying and I would like both. I want action but if it comes at the expense of taking the material system away I'd rather loose the Immersion and play something I know I like.
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Old 07/07/2015   #131
The Man
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Well the reason people keep responding is pretty simple, really:

__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
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Old 07/07/2015   #132
hleV
Default

Because a little consistency would undoubtedly impact how enjoyable the gameplay is? I'm not looking for perfect internal consistency, as that would cause the gameplay to be scripted.

Like I pointed out, I don't particularly like the OG's system, although I can objectively say that for a non-active battle system, it is quite good. But I like doing things real-time. Moving, jumping, reacting, timing your attacks... that's what FF7 setting portrays, to me anyway. I would like to do that stuff in the Remake. I got OG for the old system.

What is "content"? If you get active battle system, do you still consider Counter Attack, Cover and things like that "content"? They're redundant because they're implemented into the new system.

And I have no idea what claims that supposedly been demolished you're talking about.
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Old 07/07/2015   #133
The Man
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The first rule of remaking a game is that you don’t remove content. If Square Enix were to take your suggestions into account, they’d have to remove a ton of content. And yes, the many, many examples of materia whose inclusion you’ve protested certainly count as content. There would be no Transform, no Cover, no W-Summon, the list goes on. You’ve protested practically half the materia in the game, if not more.

And yes, adhering to your standards of consistency would certainly damage the enjoyability of the gameplay, because you seem to regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief, when the overwhelming majority of fans simply don’t give a shit.

Do you really want me to go quote the many claims Starling has demolished? Because I will, but it would probably just result in me quoting her whole post.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
The Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by 2:
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Old 07/07/2015   #134
hleV
Default

Where can I read game remaking rules?
I do not suggest removing content. I'm saying that if we get a particular gameplay system I have in mind, some content loses its purpose and it makes sense for it to be removed as it has been re-added in a different way.
Like pointed out multiple times, I simply don't like Transform.
Cover is redundant if you're in an active battle system, unless the system doesn't allow you to move fast enough to defend your allies.
W-Summon is fine.
I probably didn't protest not even against 10% of the OG materia.
I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief. Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?

It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
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Old 07/07/2015   #135
The Man
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hleV wrote: Where can I read game remaking rules?
There’s no “official” game remaking rules; it’s just widely agreed that removing content from a remake is not cricket.

Like pointed out multiple times, I simply don't like Transform.
Cover is redundant if you're in an active battle system, unless the system doesn't allow you to move fast enough to defend your allies.
W-Summon is fine.
I probably didn't protest not even against 10% of the OG materia.
You’re singing a different tune now than you were two weeks ago:
hleV wrote: OP materia like Enemy Skill, Mime (alone in the party, limit break, mime, profit), Destruct, Full Cure, Final Attack, W-Summon. Let alone loads of other nonsensical materia (most Command materia is for gameplay reasons so you can do certain actions which could be available without materia if the game had real-time action combat... W-Item? You need materia to use 2 items? Really?). You're just fooling yourselfes if you think all the materia in-game is legit. If I had to guess, only magic and summon materia (and perhaps some of Support materia) could be considered legit, though summons attacks would go differently if it was made for a photorealistic game and not just to look cool.
That’s a shitload of content you wanted removed. You’re claiming you don’t want all that removed anymore?

I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief. Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?
Experience and levels don’t cause gameplay and story segregation since it does in fact logically follow that a character would get better at combat after doing more of it. So this isn’t in fact a case of you being okay with internal inconsistency.

It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
It’s hilarious that you’re calling me wrong.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
The Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
Starling (07/08/2015)
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