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Go Back   The Lifestream Forums > Compilation of Final Fantasy VII > Final Fantasy VII Remake

Final Fantasy VII Remake The remake of FFVII announced at E3 on June 15th, 2015 -- OUR WHOLE LIVES HAVE BEEN LEADING UP TO THIS MOMENT!!

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Old 07/08/2015   #151
hleV
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The Man wrote: You have indeed pushed your opinion as fact when you've claimed things are "illogical" or "don't make sense" and many other times. But if you're not going to bother providing coherent responses to me (or, for that matter, any responses to Starling), then I won't bother doing the same for you either.
I push facts as facts. I push opinion as opinion. I allow myself to skip the "in my opinion" part if I claim something that is most likely true, while apparently you have a problem with that and try to think of ways how I can be wrong. Yes, I can be wrong, but I'm most likely not, otherwise I'd put more effort into presenting my position as only an opinion.
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Old 07/08/2015   #152
The Man
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"That's illogical" is not a statement of opinion. It's a statement of fact. A thing is either logical or it isn't, regardless of one's opinion. It appears that, in addition to not understanding logic, you also don't understand what fact and opinion are.

And it's rather charming that you're ignoring Starling's lengthy refutations of your posts. Wait, did I say charming? I meant the opposite. Since you don't seem to be responding to her, maybe if I quote her posts they'll get your attention.

unanswered post #1
Starling wrote:
hleV wrote: I never questioned anyone's desire to stick with turn-based system. It's obvious that you and quite a few others would prefer it that way. However, the only valid reason for that is mere preference for turn-based mechanics, nostalgia or desire to not have the Remake changed. You simply don't care enough about in-universe logic portrayed well enough in the gameplay and the existence of Gameplay & Story Segregation for you is an excuse to have as ridiculous gameplay mechanics as you wish. Good for you. Let's carry on.
This isn't about you denying others wanting turn-based combat, it's about you claiming those opinions aren't valid. You asked me:

hleV wrote: Why are you so insistant on keeping all the illogical gameplay stuff?
About why I and many others would want to keep gameplay elements you find "illogical". It's not about nostalgia or change, it's about staying true to the game it's based on. You can't just scrap everything if you want the remake to live up to the original. You haven't actually refuted any of my arguments; just dismissed them as invalid without elaboration. Just because someone would rather keep turn-based combat doesn't mean they don't care about the way the setting works. Saying otherwise is essentially devaluing their opinion simply because you disagree.

Instances of gameplay and story segregation are acceptable breaks from reality in order to provide a method of gameplay that is enjoyable. By definition, they aren't required to be a 100% accurate representation of how things occur in-universe, but are still relevant to it. Another problem with what you're saying is that you draw arbitrary lines of what gameplay elements are acceptable (levels and stats) and which ones are not (materia you don't think can exist in the setting, turn-based combat). What makes levels and stats more acceptable than the stuff you don't want? Is it that they're essential to any proper RPG? Why is gameplay and story segregation acceptable for those but not other staples of the RPG genre? That's flawed logic (AKA a fallacy).


hlev wrote: Somehow it's so hard for such fans to think of new ways that the Remake could work. Photo-realistic graphics is somehow okay, but a more realistic approach in gameplay is a no no? If SE is to only consider TLS members when making the Remake, then it'll be a disaster. Obviously most active TLS members are here due to them liking the OG quite a lot. Your statistic of "who shares my opinion and who doesn't" is unreliable as far as I'm concerned, and you should really stop using fake statistics as an argument instead of actually giving a proper one.
There are a lot of FF7 fans on TLS, seeing as FF7 is the main subject of this forum. That's not a quantity of people you can just dismiss. They represent a valid sample pool for the opinions of the fandom. You have no way of backing up your claim that the remake would be a disaster if SE took into account the opinions of the fans, the majority of which want the remake to remain faithful to the original, as a remake should be. If they had to disregard all the opinions on this forum, then by posting here, your opinion would have to be disregarded as well. In case you haven't noticed, it's not so much that you want real-time combat that's the issue, it's that you seem to think any other option is unreasonable and think less of the people who disagree with you, going by how you've been phrasing your posts. You also haven't given any solid arguments, as you just keep saying everything is unrealistic and "illogical", which is like saying "I'm right, therefore you're wrong, no need to debate any further", with really doesn't support your side of the argument at all. You should stop using fallacious arguments and calling it logic.

You implied the portion of the fandom that would want turn-based combat was insignificant. I refuted that point, giving my observations of how there are more people who want or at least wouldn't mind turn-based combat than you seem to think. If you want statistics, Flintlock made a detailed survey about what FF7 fans want out of the remake, with most entries coming from non forum members.

hlev wrote: I don't know, I'm pretty sure I use them correctly (as long as we're aware I'm talking about FF7, rather than real world) whilst being well aware they are not the same.
Unless you find a thesaurus entry that shows realistic/logical and unrealistic/illogical are synonyms, you aren't. As I go into detail later in the post, your use of realistic and illogical when comparing the gameplay to both real life and FF7's setting, leading to unnecessary ambiguity unless proper clarification is made.

hlev wrote: Not convinced.
I've named examples. You have the burden of proof to refute them. To clarify:

You dismiss arguments as irrelevant instead of actually disproving them. (Appeal to stone)

You insist that the gameplay has to change because you think it's illogical, simply because you don't understand the appeal of it. (Argument from [personal] incredulity)

You use terms like realistic and illogical in reference to real life and then claim you were only referring to FF7's setting. (Hedging)

You make hypocritical statements such as comparing the game to real life, then claiming that you only ever compare the gameplay to the setting. (Kettle logic)

Your self-righteous belief that your opinion is worth more than that of others. (Moral high ground)

Insisting that something doesn't make sense for reasons that have been repeatedly contested (proof by assertion) and expecting more elaboration without having actually refuted the counter-arguments (moving the goal posts)

Arguing that gameplay and story segregation as applied to the combat system is an insufficient reason for it to stay the way it is without actually elaborating. (Special pleading)

I highly doubt I've even listed all of them but you should get the point.


Some of those fallacies are shown in this exchange:
hleV wrote: Materia such as Mime, Cover, Long Range, Transform (way too unreal), Exit, Added Cut, Magic Counter would not go well with mechanics where you can move and attack when you want, as it would be making automated actions for you. But even with that I would be fine as long as I don't have to wait because the game said so.
Starling wrote: I don't see how a spell that is essentially teleporting you or your opponent out of a fight (exit materia), a spell to copy whatever copiable action was last made (mime) and a spell to turn people tiny or into frogs (transform) are unable to coexist with spells to shoot lightning, ice, fire and such.
hleV wrote: Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?
Tetsujin wrote: Irrelevant since it is a game.
Starling wrote: As has been stated already, that is irrelevant.
hlev wrote: It is relevant to what I'm discussing.
You listed a bunch of materia you thought should be removed. I pointed out they could coexist with the other materia in the setting. You dismissed it simply because it doesn't make sense to you, citing it wouldn't work in the real world. Tetsujin pointed out that was irrelevant on account of it being in a game, where what is and isn't possible in the real world is irrelevant. When I agreed with Tetsujin, you insisted it was relevant to what you were discussing. In this exchange, you ignored my counter-argument without actually countering it and disregarded the point that real world logic doesn't apply to what can and can't be done in FF7's setting.


And this one
The Man wrote: I still don't really get why anyone would think it breaks suspension of disbelief to have a turn-based battle system in PS4-quality graphics, but not in PS1-quality graphics.
hleV wrote: PS1-quality graphics break suspension of disbelief on its own. There is no point of good graphics if it's instantly ruined by very unrealistic gameplay. Well, besides "omg it looks nice", which I don't think SE limits themselves to.
The Man wrote: That doesn't make the games bad, and if that breaks suspension of belief for you then it sounds like the problem is with you rather than with the game.
hleV wrote: Oh, sorry, my bad. FF7 and Mario are real.
You sarcastically dismissed what The Man said, saying that FF7 and Mario aren't real without actually addressing the fact that the OG's combat system breaks your suspension of disbelief is an issue with you, not the game.


hlev wrote: I can pick what's more logical and realistic and what's not, though.
No you can't, as that is stating subjective opinion as fact, which it's not. Logic and realism is not dependent of your opinion. It is or isn't regardless of what you say. Therein lies one of the biggest flaws of what you've been saying. You say thing like:

hleV wrote: But battle system itself? It has to be accomodated for the greatly improved graphics.
hleV wrote: It should not stay that way as far as I'm concerned. There is no good reason for it to stay the same way.
Where you make your opinion out to be the only way, which it isn't.

hlev wrote: If I have to go through such effort just for you, when I had told numerous times that I'm not talking about real world, then I would rather just stop replying altogether.
It takes less effort to use more accurate wording than it does to go realism (in FF7 world!), which comes across as condescending. No one's forcing you to reply either, you know.

hlev wrote: OG having back attacks and attacks from both sides in no way passes it all as realistic. The ability to attack itself could be considered a relevance. In the bigger picture it's still nothing but a mess if you attempt to compare it to how it would work in the real setting.
Back attacks are relevant in that the characters are on those sides of the opponent before the battle starts and stay that way once it does, making it a case of gameplay and story integration. As I've said, the combat system the OG uses doesn't have to be realistic, nor is it trying to be. That doesn't make it a mess.

hlev wrote: And I literally wrote in my last post that materia being just OP is not the problem.
You're missing the point. I bolded the part where you said OP materia doesn't exist in the game setting, signifying that was the main focus of my reply. To be absolutely, unambiguously clear on all points concerning materia:

General information
On the way up to the reactor, Sephiroth explains how materia is formed and is used. He explains that naturally formed materia is rare, only occurring in
mako springs, which are generally found in remote, hard to reach places. In the OG, the materia caves are only accessible by various colored chocobo, meaning most people can't get there.

From a gameplay perspective, those materia are rewards for spending all that time and effort breeding chocobos, something that takes hours to accomplish. When a game makes you spend that much time to complete something optional, the reward is generally something really powerful so you won't feel like it was a waste of time. In such a case, the reward may or may not make sense in-universe, as its primary goal prioritizes gameplay. Because of this, it is perfectly acceptable for it to fall under gameplay and story segregation.

According to Cloud's explanation of materia to Barret, equipping materia generally increases your magic but lowers your physical strength, making it best not to overuse it. this seems to indicate someone has to have good physical strength to begin with if they don't want to be too hindered by the effects of equipping multiple materia.


Magic and Summon materia
All magic materia works simply by casting a spell that inflicts an opponent with either an attack or status, which works perfectly fine within the setting. In CC, we've seen Genesis use some variation of Fire and Angeal use Quake. In the OG, we've seen Meteor and Holy, who are both magic materia by virtue of casting black and white magic spells respectively, which is the type of magic that falls into this category. Zangan's letter mentions he used Cure spells to try to heal Tifa. While it can't be said for sure, there's a chance Ifalna escaped Shinra HQ by using an Exit materia. In ACC, we see Loz use Quake, as well as a combination of Flare and Ultima with Yazoo when creating that large explosion to try to kill Cloud.

Summon materia as a whole has been firmly established in the setting, as CC shows both Ifrit and Bahamut Fury in cutscenes, ACC shows Kadaj summon another version of Bahamut and the OG has Priscilla give Cloud the Shiva summon as an unskipable part of the game. BC also features a potentially world-ending summon called Zirconiade, which requires specific support materia to summon and ends up defeated by the Turks.


Support and Independent materia
Support materia functions by linking it to a compatible materia to gain an effect you normally wouldn't have. While many of these function like abilities, there is no need to create a separate interface to equip them without calling them materia, simply because you refuse to accede to gameplay and story segregation. I've already explained that doing so would be redundant, as all it would do is make the gameplay less streamlined. In an ability based system, you'd need to add a redundant menu option and keep the materia's effect linked to a particular character rather than have it be freely equipable to anyone.

Independent materia function a lot like support materia but without needing to be linked in order to offer their passive effect. While some of them (ex: __ plus) are strictly for gameplay purposes, others, such as chocobo lure, enemy lure and enemy away are perfectly capable of functioning much as they do in-universe. Again,, there is no need to stop calling them materia and making a separate menu just because you find their existence in gameplay to be "illogical". In DoC, the Protomateria seems to function like an independent materia.


Command materia
Some command materia, such as Mime, Sense, Manipulate and Enemy Skill function much like magic materia does, in that you're basically casting a spell in much the same way. We've already gone over how mime is only as useful as what you can copy, making it something you can't solely rely on in combat. Enemy Skill suffers a similar problem in that it's only as useful as the spells it contains, which you get by surviving being hit by them, meaning all of them are survivable in some way. Enemy Skill therefore isn't something you can solely rely on either, as useful as it can be. In a setting where multiple people can survive things like being impaled by Sephiroth, falling from ridiculous heights and a bunch other things, it's not surprising strong materia that doesn't explicitly exist to destroy the world can be countered by others. In fact, even an explicitly world-ending spell such as Meteor have been shown to have spell existing specifically to counter it in the form of Holy.

None of these are things characters will be able to do from the beginning, nor are they things they would be able to do permanently once they acquire the materia. I see no benefit to changing this aspect of gameplay beyond your refusal to accept gameplay and story segregation.

I've also explained that from an in-universe perspective, it's possible to see it as the materia allowing someone to do something they could potentially do normally (ex: steal) with greater skill than they could without it, or in a way that they flat-out wouldn't be able to do normally. For all we know in-universe, steal works by trying to teleport an opponent's possessions into your hand or pocket.


hlev wrote: I will agree that in my examples of why it doesn't work I enforce an assumption that the user has the materia and whatnot in question. However the point still stands: rationally thinking, some materia in OG is simply too out there to actually exist and work the same way in the real setting.
We've already been over how some materia is there for gameplay purposes and how that doesn't mean they have to be removed from the game.

hlev wrote: I read the whole thing. I simply excluded it from the quote because it was irrelevant and needlessly taking up virtual space of my post, as the content was simply an expansion of your irrelevant point addresses in the first sentence.
You called it pointless and are currently calling my point irrelevant, which isn't something people do when excluding part of a post to shorten their reply. It is relevant to what's being discussed, as I've explained in my previous post. I'm not seeing you address how disrespectful it is and how treating what people say to you in that manner isn't conductive to having an actual discussion, nor the fact that it's a fallacy.

hlev wrote: When did I compare it to real world? When mentioning that most fiction has most of their logic based on real world, FF7 not being an exception?
My point in bringing up that quote was that you said real-world logic can't be dismissed, even in a fictional setting. Now, you're dismissing anything I say about the real world as irrelevant to the discussion. I've just explained in my previous post in what ways you reference the real world and why it's relevant to the discussion, despite your claims. FF7 is not the real world. We've been over this with all the stuff that exists in the setting that wouldn't be able to in real life. Since you still don't see where you bring up the real world:

hleV wrote: I hope that rather than RPG idea in general, we're arguing turn-based and not-so-real-time combat where your actions are limited and do not portray how your controlled characters would/could behave in a real life scenario in order to be more efficient.
hleV wrote: Because the former don't make sense. How would that work in a real, non-game situation?
As I've said in my previous post, any use of the word realism and realistic in this context references the real world as well and since you use realistic and illogical interchangeably, uses of illogical also end up being indirect comparisons to the real world.

Incidentally:

hleV wrote: I don't find lack of logic that fun. Perhaps in an environment that didn't pretend to be at all serious and realistic, I wouldn't mind. In a photorealistic version of FF7? I want my damn logic, in gameplay and otherwise.
hleV wrote: No, FF7 doesn't pretend to be set in our world. It still has logic.
hleV wrote: You can't disregard all real world logic only because FF7 world is not real world.
hleV wrote: I am not comparing this to our world.
You can't have it both ways.


unanswered post #2
Starling wrote: hlev, your responses don't look like you've even read my previous post before trying to refute what The Man said right under it. If you really did have the better part of that discussion while at work, you probably would've been better off waiting until you had the time to think things through better.

hleV wrote: It can always be acceptable. The question is by whom and how much. Back in the day the graphics weren't good and we used to play as these chibi characters. That alone lets us understand that things aren't potrayed realistically (the reason would be technical limits, creators' desire to keep it that way or something else, it doesn't matter). This allows one to ignore all the silly things and simply enjoy the game the way it is. Because who cares, right?
You fail to address the point that real-time combat existed before even Zelda II, meaning they were perfectly capable of using it instead of turn-based combat even back then but chose not to.

hleV wrote: I already gave examples why it doesn't make sense when compared to the real setting. What is "when gameplay and story segregation is taken into account"? It's a term used for inconsistency between gameplay and story. Why would it be taken into account? I want that incosinstency lessened (greatly) because that would make the game look more realistic.
Do you know what gameplay and story segregation is or not?
Gameplay and Story Segregation laconic wrote: Game mechanics don't apply to cutscenes and dialogue.
hleV wrote: Because a little consistency would undoubtedly impact how enjoyable the gameplay is?
Because a little inconsistency would?

hleV wrote: I'm not looking for perfect internal consistency, as that would cause the gameplay to be scripted.
You're not doing a very good job conveying that, what with your refusal to accept even the most basic of gameplay and story segregation.

hleV wrote: Like I pointed out, I don't particularly like the OG's system, although I can objectively say that for a non-active battle system, it is quite good.
Quite kind of you, considering you've said things such as this:

hleV wrote: Considering gameplay is what I dislike the most about OG (seriously I only put up with it the first time because I wanted to finish the awesome story) it would be a disaster for me.
hleV wrote: I want my character to be limited by FF7 world logic-based mechanics, not turn-based game mechanics.

Did I get tired? OK, make me slower or unable to make a dodge move.
Did I just swing my sword? Why do I have to wait till the opponent casts that slow-ass magic on me?

For a modern game with characters that have quite incredible abilities, that would be bullshit.


and this:

hleV wrote: FFX (one of the few other FF games I played) had PS2 graphics and its battle system sucked ass because it was turn-based and still had random encounters. How can the game appear real, be set in a 3D space, and be so damn illogical? Because it's made for people who enjoy such battle system enough to disregard its lack of logic. And I'm all about logic.
The Man wrote: FFX's battle system was by far the best thing about the game and the only thing about it I unconditionally enjoyed.
hleV wrote: I agree with this statement. Yet the battle system sucked ass nevertheless.


hleV wrote: But I like doing things real-time. Moving, jumping, reacting, timing your attacks... that's what FF7 setting portrays, to me anyway. I would like to do that stuff in the Remake. I got OG for the old system.
Other people have just as much a right to want turn-based combat in HD as you want to have real-time combat in the remake.

hleV wrote: And I have no idea what claims that supposedly been demolished you're talking about.
Everything in my previous post. Do I need to draw up a list point form?

hleV wrote: I do not suggest removing content. I'm saying that if we get a particular gameplay system I have in mind, some content loses its purpose and it makes sense for it to be removed as it has been re-added in a different way.
If you're going to say things like that, you need to follow through with a proper explanation of what you have in mind and how all the content is kept. Otherwise, such an argument holds no weight.

hleV wrote: Like pointed out multiple times, I simply don't like Transform.
Why did you even list it as an example if it didn't fit with your reasons for not wanting the other materia you named in the game? Because it's way too unreal sounds a lot like when you call things "illogical". You must've known lumping it in with the ones you don't admit to wanting removed out of preference would've resulted in it being brought up when refuting your claim.

hleV wrote: Cover is redundant if you're in an active battle system, unless the system doesn't allow you to move fast enough to defend your allies.
Actually, I've seen similar mechanics in real-time combat. You can have a button prompt to teleport in front of your ally. The cover materia would still be a materia you slot into your equipment.

hleV wrote: W-Summon is fine.
Funny, wasn't it on your list of examples of materia that should be removed?

hleV wrote: I probably didn't protest not even against 10% of the OG materia.
According to these posts:

hleV wrote: Materia such as Mime, Cover, Long Range, Transform (way too unreal), Exit, Added Cut, Magic Counter would not go well with mechanics where you can move and attack when you want, as it would be making automated actions for you. But even with that I would be fine as long as I don't have to wait because the game said so.
hleV wrote: OP materia like Enemy Skill, Mime (alone in the party, limit break, mime, profit), Destruct, Full Cure, Final Attack, W-Summon. Let alone loads of other nonsensical materia (most Command materia is for gameplay reasons so you can do certain actions which could be available without materia if the game had real-time action combat... W-Item? You need materia to use 2 items? Really?). You're just fooling yourselfes if you think all the materia in-game is legit. If I had to guess, only magic and summon materia (and perhaps some of Support materia) could be considered legit, though summons attacks would go differently if it was made for a photorealistic game and not just to look cool.
You wanted to remove pretty much everything other than magic materia you listed and summons. Going only by the ones you named (except Transform), that's a minimum of 12 materia you want removed.

The OG has 83 materia: 17 Summon (20%), 22 Magic (27%), 14 Command (17%), 13 Support (16%) and 17 Independent (20%). 8 materia is the most you can remove from the game before you reach 10%. Just removing Support, the group with the lowest number, is 16%. Going by what you've said, you want anywhere from 14%-55% of the OG's materia removed and that's not even counting Ultima, Contain, Master Magic, Master Summon, Knights of the Round, Revive and Comet, which would bring it up to 64%. So yes, you've protested far more than 10% of the OG's materia. What's your issue with Destruct anyway? The Death spell? The only other thing it has are DeBarrier and DeSpell.

hleV wrote: I don't regard even the slightest internal consistency regarding gameplay as a breaker of suspension of belief.Remember when I said leveling and exping is fine?
That is literally the only gameplay element you accepted in the entire discussion we've had on this thread. Everything else you called too unrealistic and "illogical", as if gameplay and story segregation is unacceptable.

hleV wrote: It is quite incredible how wrong you are about... everything. Starling does a better job, but you probably failed to understand her as well, besides that she's on your side of thought, which is that I'm wrong about something.
You really need to learn to own up to your mistakes and contradictions. You can't rely on disrespecting the people you're replying to simply because you don't have anything better to say. Both me and The Man actually back up our claims, unlike you.

You've also been disrespectful to Wolf_:
Wolf_ wrote: I suggest you should skip the remake and get battlefield instead. Although you take a few bullets to go down. Not very realistic..
hleV wrote: I suggest you stop giving silly suggestions.


hleV wrote: If you incorporate the ability to do the same thing via a button or combination of them rather having to use materia for that, it doesn't count as removal of content.
Why would you bother not calling it materia if the only thing that changes is adapting its effect for real-time combat?

hleV wrote: Why is me pointing out that you're wrong hilarious? You really are wrong. It's as if you interpreted everything I wrote the way you did just so you could argue.
Why hello pot, how are you today? It seems you've been going around calling kettles black again. I'm pretty sure I've pointed out how that's not a way to argue with people if you expect to make a point that actually goes anywhere, let alone be taken seriously.

Here's another example of you saying contradicting things:

hleV wrote: It's not about the Remake's super photorealistic graphics.
hleV wrote: OG's battle system is only fine because it has comparably shitty graphics.
And those two sentences are from the same post.


hleV wrote: Wanted it removed? Of course. I still do. Why would you care?
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the two of you are currently having a discussion, which involves paying attention to what the other participants are saying. Don't deflect the subject.

hleV wrote: I didn't suggest that though or enforce it on anyone as the only valid thing to do. The argument was about it not really fitting into the setting due to it being quite illogical even by FF7 standarts, which is why I would prefer it not being in the Remake.
Are you sure? Maybe you should re-read some of my posts.

hleV wrote: I have provided you my valid reasoning.
No, you haven't. See other parts of this and previous post.

hleV wrote: I don't care if it doesn't count as good enough reasoning to you, it's good enough for me to wish it didn't make into Remake.
Again, that's not how you make your point to someone, especially when calling those with opposing opinions wrong.

hleV wrote: Stats don't really make sense. The events in the game don't last so long that the characters would noticeably become so much more powerful.
Didn't you just say you accepted stats? Are you going to go back on that and reduce the amount of gameplay elements you're actually OK with to zero?

hleV wrote: While I would find it fun to have to overcome the obstacles with just skill and items that I've attained over time rather than stats, FF7 is still an RPG in heart and that would change the game beyond recognision.
Hmm... now where have I heard something like that before...

Starling wrote: As this is a remake rather than a completely new game, they have to keep in mind the original when they make changes. FF7's turn-based system allowed for a lot of options in what you could do in combat, which might not translate well into a real-time combat system, where that many options to scroll through would hinder your ability to respond quickly. If they were to solve that problem by reducing the variety of options you have access to at a time, you'd probably end up losing part of what was great about the turn-based system
Starling wrote: The combat system of the OG was made with turn-based combat in mind. Even if they plan to overhaul a bunch of stuff in the remake, one of the core rules of remaking a game is that you don't remove content. Some elements of the turn-based system wouldn't mesh well with a real-time combat system and I worry too much would be lost in transition. For example, once you have weapons with a decent number of materia slots, you can end up with a materia set up that gives you a number of options that would be difficult to allow in real-time combat without having to scroll through a long menu. I don't want to lose the ability to access that much variety in a fight.
Starling wrote: Applying too much realism to videogames can also make them boring or frustrating, as some elements of reality aren't conductive to a good gaming experience.
Starling wrote: If videogame mechanics had to accede to your insistence that they function like the real world, it'd be extremely limiting to the variety currently present in videogames.
Starling wrote: As I've already said, yes, some materia are in the game for gameplay function. No, that doesn't mean they should be removed on the basis of not being realistic enough. The materia was basically made to allow players to set up characters however they'd like, not being constrained to the setup of a given class or job like in other FF games, but still giving you the option to do that if you want. It's a level of freedom of customization that you can't just restrict without lessening the quality of the game.
Starling wrote: As a remake of FF7, it wouldn't make sense for it to just throw everything to the wind as if it's an original game coming out for the first time. It's not, and therefore must remain faithful to the original with all the changes it makes.


hleV wrote: Not in the action battle system I have in mind, one that emphasizes skill of character control nearly as much as passive stats and acquired items/materia.
As The Engineer has said, the OG's battle system did a good job of those things. As for the battle system you have in mind, you need to elaborate on that if you want it to be relevant. Otherwise, it basically doesn't exist.

hleV wrote: Allowing player to have access to such materia would make the game worse.
No it wouldn't. Again, see other parts of this and previous post.

hleV wrote: Me wanting it removed was never a question. You said that I suggested its removal (as if it's the only valid choice), which is wrong. Here you go. You're wrong.
Go ahead, try to prove The Man wrong. I suggest you elaborate instead of just saying you're wrong repeatedly. We're both waiting.

hleV wrote: Wrong. Again. Materia is not conscious (yeah, spirits and all, but not conscious in the way you'd need to explain the weird way it works in OG). It does not know that your friend is under attack, so it could teleport you to them. Materia does not randomly allow you to use 2 summons, because in the actual setting there is no such limit to begin with. I don't remember the last time I used Exit, was the effect of running away or disappearing from battle? If it's the latter, well, it's possible I guess but nothing suggests such ability being ever used by or available to anyone in OG (or am I missing something?).
There's this thing called magic. Ever heard of it? I don't recall materia having to be sentient in order to function. When individuals are fighting together, good teamwork means they'd be aware of when their allies are in trouble. That's all Cover materia needs in order to take effect.

It wouldn't be too absurd to think Summons have a cool-off period of some sort that limits how often you can use it.

The exit spell is also known as warp and teleport throughout other FF games. It's also present in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. Knowing that, it's pretty obvious it functions by teleporting either you or your opponent outside of battle. Like I said, it's possible that Ifalna used Exit in order to escape Shinra HQ with Aerith, though we'll never know for sure.

hleV wrote: Whom am I suggesting the removal of certain materia to? You? SE?
To us, as seen here:

hleV wrote: Certain materia would have to be sacrificed for the sake of making the gameplay more logical, but that doesn't mean they can't introduce something new to accommodate for that.


hleV wrote: From the quote below I took it that you believe I'm pushing my opinion as fact, so yet again you're wrong.
Do we seriously need to go over this again? Here's another example:
hleV wrote: Non-real-time battle system fails to portray the battles the way they actually may have happened within the story, instead it portrays them the way they definitely didn't happen. You can enjoy the system as much as you want but this fact is unquestionable. Good for you if you don't care
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #153
Starling
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hleV wrote: I push facts as facts. I push opinion as opinion. I allow myself to skip the "in my opinion" part if I claim something that is most likely true, while apparently you have a problem with that and try to think of ways how I can be wrong.
That. Is. Not. How. Opinions. Work.

You clearly need to read this.

hlev wrote: Yes, I can be wrong, but I'm most likely not, otherwise I'd put more effort into presenting my position as only an opinion.
See? You admit you're pushing your opinions as fact. You also admit that you think they're correct, along with your previous claims that those who disagree are wrong. You can't build an argument solely on subjective opinions. If you want to prove that your argument is valid, you need to back it up with objective fact.

Have I not shown you what happens when you jump back into a discussion without properly addressing what's been said? I was perfectly willing to wait a few days if that's what it took for you to actually respond to what I posted. Do I have to quote them too like The Man did?
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The Man (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #154
hleV
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Quoting in this forum is bad. Why not allow at least 2nd or 3rd level quotes (so as not to force to do them manually)?
Starling wrote: You fail to address the point that real-time combat existed before even Zelda II, meaning they were perfectly capable of using it instead of turn-based combat even back then but chose not to.
I did not fail to address it, I simply do not see how the existence of real-time combat going quite a while back is relevant to what we're arguing about.
Do you know what gameplay and story segregation is or not?
Yes.
Because a little inconsistency would?
A little? Probably not.
You're not doing a very good job conveying that, what with your refusal to accept even the most basic of gameplay and story segregation.
Provide an example of me refusing to accept "even the most basic of gameplay and story segregation".
Quite kind of you, considering you've said things such as
I don't have to like it to accept it's not bad. It is done well, turn-based combat is simply not my preference.
Other people have just as much a right to want turn-based combat in HD as you want to have real-time combat in the remake.
Correct.
Everything in my previous post. Do I need to draw up a list point form?
You have demolished nothing.
If you're going to say things like that, you need to follow through with a proper explanation of what you have in mind and how all the content is kept. Otherwise, such an argument holds no weight.
Real-time action battle system is self-explanatory. Why would I go out of my way to explain that you can use your movement buttons to jump in front of enemy's attack that's about to hit your ally, or that you can use an attack button right after being hit, or that you simply run away because you're actually able to move through game space and you don't need materia for that?
Why did you even list it as an example if it didn't fit with your reasons for not wanting the other materia you named in the game? Because it's way too unreal sounds a lot like when you call things "illogical". You must've known lumping it in with the ones you don't admit to wanting removed out of preference would've resulted in it being brought up when refuting your claim.
Oh yeah, let's use the oldest post possible to prove a point and completely ignore the posts that followed.
Actually, I've seen similar mechanics in real-time combat. You can have a button prompt to teleport in front of your ally. The cover materia would still be a materia you slot into your equipment.
If it's that kind of system, then sure, why not. When I said some materia would lose its purpose I was talking about the one system that I had in mind.
Funny, wasn't it on your list of examples of materia that should be removed?
I should have clarified on that. In OG, W-Summon is used to summon twice per turn. There would be no turns in action battle system. So technically W-Summon shouldn't be there. However I can think of ways it could work, like if instead of allowing a summon per turn, there's now a delay between using summons. So while the purpose of W-Summon we know would cease to exist, it could be altered to accomodate for the new system.
According to these posts:

You wanted to remove pretty much everything other than magic materia you listed and summons. Going only by the ones you named (except Transform), that's a minimum of 12 materia you want removed.

The OG has 83 materia: 17 Summon (20%), 22 Magic (27%), 14 Command (17%), 13 Support (16%) and 17 Independent (20%). 8 materia is the most you can remove from the game before you reach 10%. Just removing Support, the group with the lowest number, is 16%. Going by what you've said, you want anywhere from 14%-55% of the OG's materia removed and that's not even counting Ultima, Contain, Master Magic, Master Summon, Knights of the Round, Revive and Comet, which would bring it up to 64%. So yes, you've protested far more than 10% of the OG's materia. What's your issue with Destruct anyway? The Death spell? The only other thing it has are DeBarrier and DeSpell.
In none of the posts you quoted I claim that they should be removed and that's the only valid thing to do. I would prefer them to be removed or reworked, yes.
That is literally the only gameplay element you accepted in the entire discussion we've had on this thread. Everything else you called too unrealistic and "illogical", as if gameplay and story segregation is unacceptable.
I did also accept most of the materia, didn't I? There were no other gameplay elements brought up.
You really need to learn to own up to your mistakes and contradictions. You can't rely on disrespecting the people you're replying to simply because you don't have anything better to say. Both me and The Man actually back up our claims, unlike you.

You've also been disrespectful to Wolf_
If you backed your claims in a convincing way, we wouldn't be discussing this for so long. And I wasn't disrespectful to Wolf_ any more than we was to me.
Why would you bother not calling it materia if the only thing that changes is adapting its effect for real-time combat?
It would obviously not be called materia in such a system.
Why hello pot, how are you today? It seems you've been going around calling kettles black again. I'm pretty sure I've pointed out how that's not a way to argue with people if you expect to make a point that actually goes anywhere, let alone be taken seriously.
Here's another example of you saying contradicting things: And those two sentences are from the same post.
No contradiction there. The OG's battle system is fine, I just don't prefer it.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because the two of you are currently having a discussion, which involves paying attention to what the other participants are saying. Don't deflect the subject.
I meant that why would he be arguing so desperately about what I want out of the Remake?
Are you sure? Maybe you should re-read some of my posts.
Maybe you should.
No, you haven't. See other parts of this and previous post.
Yes, I did. What is valid reasoning for me is not your business. Feel free to consider it invalid for your own conditions of what fits the Remake, I don't mind.
Again, that's not how you make your point to someone, especially when calling those with opposing opinions wrong.
You're mixing up the arguments about what I would like the Remake to be like and arguments about what is logical in FF7 setting.
Didn't you just say you accepted stats? Are you going to go back on that and reduce the amount of gameplay elements you're actually OK with to zero?
Exactly, I accept stats in FF7 remake, although they do not make sense.
Hmm... now where have I heard something like that before...
Yet again you wish to argue about mere preferences.
As The Engineer has said, the OG's battle system did a good job of those things. As for the battle system you have in mind, you need to elaborate on that if you want it to be relevant. Otherwise, it basically doesn't exist.
So you have no idea what the system I have in mind is like, yet you and The Man go to such lengths to argue about it? It is funny indeed.
No it wouldn't. Again, see other parts of this and previous post.
Yes it would, unless you don't want the game to be challenging at all.
Go ahead, try to prove The Man wrong. I suggest you elaborate instead of just saying you're wrong repeatedly. We're both waiting.
I just did. He claims I "suggested" the removal of certain materia and also that that I push the notion that not doing that is wrong. That's not the case. If you believe it is, it's up to you to prove it.
There's this thing called magic. Ever heard of it? I don't recall materia having to be sentient in order to function. When individuals are fighting together, good teamwork means they'd be aware of when their allies are in trouble. That's all Cover materia needs in order to take effect.
But Cover works as an automated action in OG. You don't even get to choose, the materia makes the choice for you. That's not how things work in the real setting, do they? And again, teleportation. I'll believe it when I see it.
It wouldn't be too absurd to think Summons have a cool-off period of some sort that limits how often you can use it.
Correct.
The exit spell is also known as warp and teleport throughout other FF games. It's also present in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep. Knowing that, it's pretty obvious it functions by teleporting either you or your opponent outside of battle. Like I said, it's possible that Ifalna used Exit in order to escape Shinra HQ with Aerith, though we'll never know for sure.
Didn't The Man said that Exit essentially makes you run rather than teleport away? I personally don't know or remember how it works, but from the information I have, I don't find it logical.
To us, as seen here:
Wasn't that when I was describing what I would like about the Remake? Why can't I have preferences?
Do we seriously need to go over this again? Here's another example:
This wasn't an opinion, but a fact. Otherwise you're claiming that there's no such thing as gameplay and story segregation.
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Old 07/08/2015   #155
Wolf_
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Old 07/08/2015   #156
The Man
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I don’t really have time to respond to a wall of text right now (I’ve got some school work to do) but:
Yes, I did. What is valid reasoning for me is not your business.
You made it everyone else’s business by posting it in this thread. You made a claim; the burden of proof is now on you to defend it.

Regarding nested quotes, it’s not a functionality vBulletin offers by default but I can ask the user base if they want a hack that will add it.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #157
hleV
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The Man wrote: You made it everyone else’s business by posting it in this thread. You made a claim; the burden of proof is now on you to defend it.
No no no. I posted my wishes for the Remake. You have a problem with that.
hleV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2015   #158
The Man
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Starling already posted a number of cases where your “wishes” were phrased as being objective facts, such as this one:
hleV wrote: Non-real-time battle system fails to portray the battles the way they actually may have happened within the story, instead it portrays them the way they definitely didn't happen. You can enjoy the system as much as you want but this fact is unquestionable. Good for you if you don't care
That is what I have a problem with, as I believe I have made abundantly clear when I said things like:
The Man wrote: The primary problem here is that hleV has been presenting opinions as though they are objective truths.
And:
The Man wrote: I don’t even much care whether the remake uses turn-based combat or not, as long as they don’t remove any content, but your arguments against it are just weak.
As seen in the quote directly above, I’ve already explicitly stated that I don’t even much care what kind of battle system the remake has, so even your statement that I’m bothered by your opinion is in fact unsupported by fact.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #159
hleV
Default

There is nothing non-factual in the quote you have provided. The gameplay is segregated from the story, isn't it?
hleV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07/08/2015   #160
The Man
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Not nearly as much as you seem to think. You have yet to demonstrate that in the setting of FFVII, battles don’t ordinarily happen in turn-based form. It’s entirely possible that Advent Children and Before Crisis represent the breaks from the setting’s reality, which seems to be a possibility you haven’t even considered.

In any case, that was only an example. There are plenty of other cases of you pushing opinions as facts, such as, as I’ve mentioned repeatedly, every single time you’ve dismissed a game element by claiming it is “illogical” or “unrealistic”. Or this:
hleV wrote: I never questioned anyone's desire to stick with turn-based system. It's obvious that you and quite a few others would prefer it that way. However, the only valid reason for that is mere preference for turn-based mechanics, nostalgia or desire to not have the Remake changed.
Or a dozen other examples I could name if I were as patient/not strapped for time as Starling is.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
The Man is offline   Reply With Quote
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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #161
hleV
Default

The Man wrote: Not nearly as much as you seem to think.
So it is segregated or not? Yes or No? There is NOTHING non-factual in the quote you have provided. It is not simply an example. It is an invalid example.

Like I mentioned, you have a problem with me pushing the most likely scenario as fact. Well that's not my problem. You can feel free to believe that FF7 setting has a high chance of following turn-based logic during fights while the rest of the world will just laught at you.

I have no intention of addressing super unlikely scenarios. If we consider them then we can forget any logic and discussions about in-universe will become pointless.

Last edited by hleV; 07/08/2015 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 07/08/2015   #162
The Man
Default

Did you even read beyond that sentence? As I pointed out, there’s no way of knowing, because the creators have never said which combat style is representative of the way of battles occur in VII’s setting. Therefore, either the in-game battles are segregated from the reality of the setting, or cutscenes, AC, and BC are segregated. But without further statements from the creators, we don’t know which is the case. So yes, your entire statement is non-factual; it is pure speculation. It may be likely speculation, but it is still speculation. The other statement I quoted, which you didn’t even acknowledge, is also non-factual, as is everything you’ve erroneously claimed is “illogical” or “unrealistic”, which you also haven’t acknowledged.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #163
hleV
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You honestly consider FF7 setting following a turn-based logic a likely scenario? Because if the answer is yes, I am done here. You are so desperate to prove you're right that you are willing to disregard very simple logic.
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Old 07/08/2015   #164
The Man
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Did I say that anywhere? I consider it a possible scenario. That does not mean I consider it a likely one. Regardless, stating a likely scenario as definite, as you have, is not proper.

Also, you still haven’t addressed the fact that you have stated many other opinions as facts, and I’m going to keep repeating this paragraph in every post I make in this thread until you do so. Your attempts to deflect attention by only responding to the argument you think makes you look best are not fooling anyone.
__________________


You’re better off not dreaming of the things to come
Dreams are always ending far too soon









“When I was twelve, I milked my eel into a pot of turtle stew.
I flogged the one-eyed snake, I skinned my sausage, I made
the bald man cry into the turtle stew, which I do believe my
sister ate. At least, I hope she did.” -Tyrion Lannister
“The management is very bad. In fact, let’s not mince words: The management is terrible!
We’ve had a string of embezzlers, frauds, liars, and lunatics making a string of catastrophic
decisions. This is a plain fact. But who elected them? It was you! You who appointed these
people! You who gave them the power to make your decisions for you! While I’ll admit that
anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after
century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious
incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without
question their senseless orders. You have allowed them to fill your workspace with dangerous
and unproven machines. You could have stopped them. All you had to say was, ‘No.’” -V
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers.” -Thomas Pynchon
“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith
“Why throw money at problems? That's what money is for. Should the nation's wealth be redistributed? It has been and continues to be redistributed to a few people in a manner strikingly unhelpful.” -Kurt Vonnegut
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck
“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin
“In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.” -Sun Tzu
“...pero Capitán, obedecer por obedecer, así, sin pensarlo... sólo lo hacen gentes como usted, Capitán.” -Dr Ferreiro, Pan’s Labyrinth
“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is: infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” -William Blake
“Yeah, you really got my act down good, guys. That'll be great. ‘You know, when I’m done ranting about elite power that rules the planet under a totalitarian government that uses the media in order to keep people stupid, my throat gets parched! That’s why I drink Orange Drink.’” -Bill Hicks








last.fm (note: album artwork may sometimes be nsfw) · Fool's Gold · FFOF · FF
the lifestream last.fm group · my old music · my new music · pm for myspace/facebook
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Starling (07/08/2015)
Old 07/08/2015   #165
Tetsujin
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If it were up to me I'd just tell everyone to move on to a different topic already

unfortunately it isn't

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Lex (07/08/2015)
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