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Final Fantasy VII Remake The remake of FFVII announced at E3 on June 15th, 2015 -- OUR WHOLE LIVES HAVE BEEN LEADING UP TO THIS MOMENT!!

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Old 06/24/2015   #1
CameoAmalthea
Default Should the Turks be more Sympathetic?

In Advent Children the Turks ally with the main characters against the Remnants and the dynamic between everyone is much friendlier than in the OG where the Turks essentially the Team Rocket of FFVII.

For example, when Reno calls Tifa in AC she laughs like she's talking to an old friend- which can be kind of bizarre considering Reno is the one who dropped the Sector 7 Plate.

Over all, the compilation shows the Turks as more sympathetic. In Crisis Core they're you allies, in Before Crisis they're the protagonists, and in Advent Children they're friendly with their former enemies and very much in hero territory. Since the Remake will be part of the compilation and be made with this new characterization in existence would it make sense if the Turks were more sympathetic.

Perhaps if later in the game, after the events in Wutai and Tseng's death you learn - maybe from Reeve is allied with the Turks and takes responsibility for the dropping of the plate in Case of Denzel regardless of his lack of involvement , that the Turks had little choice or something like this. If they hadn't done it they would have been killed and would have been carried out - I don't know - something to make the forgiveness/friendliness we see in AC make more sense as well as bring the bad guy Turks we see at the beginning of the game with the Good Guy Turks we see in Crisis Core and Before Crisis (although even then they're still morally grey).

I'm finding it hard to imagine reconciling the lighter softer Turks we get in AC with the OG, or imagining how Tifa and other others would get to the point they'd be on friendly terms.
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Last edited by CameoAmalthea; 06/25/2015 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 06/24/2015   #2
Clement Rage
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No. Detailed thoughts later, a bit pressed for time at the mo.
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Old 06/24/2015   #3
Minato
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No. That Tifa would be this friendly to Reno makes little sense, yes. Not to mention Cloud letting the people that oprhaned Denzel talk **** about how well he takes care of him, but the remake shouldn't have to cover up the Compilations mistakes.
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Old 06/24/2015   #4
CameoAmalthea
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I guess I'm more of a compilation fan and would rather see a remake bring the OG story in line with compilation rather than just ignore it.
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Old 06/25/2015   #5
Minato
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CameoAmalthea wrote: I guess I'm more of a compilation fan and would rather see a remake bring the OG story in line with compilation rather than just ignore it.
There's nothing to ignore. They still did these things in the Compilation and the idea that they didn't have a choice is ridiculous. The whole reason the plate needed to be dropped in the first place is because Shinra Inc. CAN'T track down six people in their own city. To begin with, the people that Shinra would turn too for tracking someone on the run down and silencing them ARE the Turks. Ergo, they can leave Shinra whenever they want too and they'd almost certainly get away with it. They stay and follow orders out of genuine loyalty, which is the only way to explain their behaviour in Advent Children too. Even if it doesn't explain Tifa and Cloud's.
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Old 06/25/2015   #6
Octo
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Eli wrote: No. That Tifa would be this friendly to Reno makes little sense, yes. Not to mention Cloud letting the people that oprhaned Denzel talk **** about how well he takes care of him, but the remake shouldn't have to cover up the Compilations mistakes.
I think that one passed me by but yeah, thats pretty bad writing.

I'd rather they kept them like they were in the OG. Plus, if *if* they're going to remake Before Crisis (given that it wasn't released outside of Japan) then they could just do that and make it, y'know, not suck balls quite so much as it did.

The more I think about the plot of that game the more embarrassing it is, that they had to make 'old' Avalanche such bad guys and the Turks glorified cub scouts.

I guess theres nothing that could be done about AC though.
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Old 06/25/2015   #7
CameoAmalthea
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Before Crisis opens with AVALANCHE attempting to blow up a reactor - just like in the original game - but instead of playing as the terrorists you play as a Turk trying to stop it - with emphasis that people will die if the reactor is destroyed. The Turks still do defend Shinra from AVALANCHE when Shinra is destroying the planet - AND do other morally reprehensible things like kidnapping people who are forcibly recruited into SOLDIER.

The difference is the levels AVALANCHE is willing to go to in order to win - such a hijacking the Junon Canon and destroying Midgar - massive civilian casualties - versus less civilian casualties in just targeting the reactors. Eventually Fuhito went over the deep end and decided humanity needed to be destroyed to protect the planet but even then it's an interesting discussion about what makes a group or a cause good or bad.

I like that in Novellas we get to see Barret grappling over the deaths he's responsible for from the Reactor bombings. The over all question of how far are you willing to go for a cause and how far is too far.

I really like the moral ambiguity of the OG in terms of playing as a terrorist group - they're rebels against a bad regime that is killing the planet and clearly Shinra is evil in how it responds - but they're still willing to kill to bring change. I liked that BC made you look at AVALANCHE from the other side of the coin - people like Elfe and Shears were very sympathetic heroic people but so were the player Turks.

The reason they stay in Advent Children is loyalty to Rufus - this is specifically stated in Case of Shinra. Rufus saved their lives at the end of BC - so they've sworn to stay by him. I don't think they have any loyalty to President Shinra in particular since he was going to have them all executed - and I don't think they were enthusiastic about dropping the plate. But had they refused to do it they would have been killed - and since this comes like right after they were about to be executed for treason I'm assuming they were being watched pretty carefully. I find that relevant.

I don't want them to be innocent in this. I like the idea that no one is innocent, but no one is a evil either (except President Shinra and the execs who supported this).
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Old 06/25/2015   #8
55-
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I think the fact that the Turks are the most likable murderers you'll ever meet is absolutely genius and I would be incredibly disappointed if they tried to take away that ambiguity.

I remember watching Reno drop Don Corneo off Da Chao Scar-to-Mufasa style and being like "Oh yeah. . . Reno kills people. I totally forgot."

Tseng is one of the most interesting characters to me. I can't think of any other characters like him. I'm always like gawwwd, idk how to feel about u Tseng. Sometimes he's an incredibly sympathetic guy and you think you get the guy and then he's (BC spoiler) (SPOILER) shooting and killing the people you spent the whole game trying to save, and you're like WTF TSENG. (SPOILER) (BTW I outright reject to the scene after the credits. I will not let it devalue how genius I thought that plot twist was.) I remember replaying FFVII and being reminded that Tseng's introduction in the game involves him slapping Aeris and spouting off some pretty standard asshole villain lines. That's the way his character is introduced. And then you find out that couldn't have been easy for him to do. And that endears you to him.

I'm not surprised at all that Tifa would talk to Reno like a friend. That's how we all feel about the Turk's, right? They've done some horrible things, but they're damn likable.

A big part of the reason why I connected so strongly with the Kids are Alright - or at least the amount of it I've been capable of reading - is because, well. First off, I feel like, all the pieces of the compilation present very different feeling representations of the world of the narrative based on the perspective through which you're seeing the story. In DoC, everyone talks like Vincent, it's always night time, everything is very large and dramatic. In CC, I thought the music felt very different than in FFVII, but I thought it suited Zack very well. It's electric guitars and action, then it's soft and sad. Perfect for an aspiring hero, who ain't too man to openly sob when his friend dies. So anyway, I ended up feeling like Evan's FFVII was my FFVII. It really resonated with me as, the world through Evan's eyes was the way I was seeing it all along.
Contributing to that feeling for me, was the character descriptions.
A quote from Kyrie, RE the Turks: "They laugh, and seem charming, even kind, but they’re not normal people. Those were the eyes of people who always fight. Those were the hands of killers."
I thought that was an amazing description. That was the kind of shit I've been trying to say about the Turks for years.

So yeah, I'd be incredibly disappointed if they tried to make the Turks more likable by taking out the whole murderers part, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Reading the Kids are Alright made me feel like Nojima may have been responsible for whatever tiny imperceptible thing in FFVII that made me connect more hardcore with the franchise than I have any other story. I trust him immensely.
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Old 06/25/2015   #9
Channy
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Not even just the Turks but even Rufus was a little soft towards Cloud during their conversation. Definitely not the same guy who was ready to kill him at the top of the Shinra building.

The Turks and Shinra definitely need to bring back the badassery.
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Old 06/25/2015   #10
CameoAmalthea
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Oh I'd definitely still have them be killers. I don't really like fanfic that tries to white wash their actions. I like things to stay in shades of grey, no black or white.

I think Rufus was great in AC. He's manipulative. In AC he needs Cloud and says what he needs to in order to get Cloud on his side. In the OG he has no reason not to shoot this guy.
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Old 06/25/2015   #11
55-
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CameoAmalthea wrote: I think Rufus was great in AC. He's manipulative. In AC he needs Cloud and says what he needs to in order to get Cloud on his side. In the OG he has no reason not to shoot this guy.
Yooo Rufus is my fave let's talk about him forever.

What I've always loved about Rufus is what's most important to him is whatever best serves his needs. Sometimes this aligns with our goals, and he's wrecking Sapphire Weapon, sometimes this stands in the face of our goals, and he's trying to execute Tifa and Barret on live TV.

He exists in a grey zone, and he's hard to pin down. It's hard to see him as a threat post-FFVII, because he's so fixated on the idea of associating the Shinra name with good things that all he's doing, as far as we know, are things that we want/need done.

Is he just doing that for personal gain? Did the events of Case of Shinra humble him and make him a better guy? More concerned about the effect he's having on the planet? Reeve seems to think so in DoC, but Reeve's a sweetheart, so maybe he's projecting.

When I was playing these games for the first time, (like 9 years ago, I was late to the FFVII party), I was super into Rufus because I was fascinated with the idea of manipulation and the evil businessman trope. I thought for sure everything he does ever in the compilation was part of an elaborate ruse for personal gain, and I was like, Reeve bby u better be careful, we don't ACTUALLY know why Rufus is giving the WRO donations, but there's gotta be an ulterior motive. It ain't to give the Shinra a good name, he's doing it anonymously.
Nowadays I really don't know though. Maybe he is doing it in an effort to do what he can to repair the world his dumb father damaged.

Rufus is a beautiful mystery and I appreciate that ambiguity.
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Old 06/25/2015   #12
CameoAmalthea
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I'd assume Rufus has some level of control over the WRO even just advisory - just not publicly since it wouldn't go over well since he's not popular since all the blame for what happened landed on him. Or else he just feels he has a responsibility to the world since he was raised to rule it. Shinra fell down around him almost as soon as he got it, but he still has a need to impact the flow of history.
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Old 06/25/2015   #13
LicoriceAllsorts
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FWIW, I think BC presented the Turks sympathetically because the story was told from their viewpoint. However, I also think the game was trying to convey that the initial idealism of the young Turks was gradually eroded as they became more and more conscious of what an amoral, self-serving organization Shinra was, and that gradually their loyalty ceased to be loyalty to the company and became an entirely personal loyalty to Veld, Tseng and Rufus, as well as a personal mission against Avalanche Mark I.

In the OG the Turks (and Rufus) are seen from Avalanche's point of view and that's how it should stay. They may not be absolutely evil, and they all have redeeming qualities, but they are definitely not the good guys. I would hate to see Square Enix change this.

The dropping of Sector Seven is just a fictional version of those many real-life situations where you have to ask where the moral responsibility lies: with the man who gave the order to commit an atrocity, or with the person who fulfilled his or her duty by carrying the order out. Most of us like to think that we could never be complicit in an atrocity, but psychology and history both show us that almost anyone can and will commit atrocities given the right combination of circumstances, which means that, far from being the embodiment of evil, Reno is just an ordinary guy. He epitomizes what Hannah Arendt called "the banality of evil": evil that takes days off, evil that likes to enjoy a beer and a bit of holiday time with its mates, evil that doesn't believe in working too hard; evil that went to all the trouble of teaming up with Avalanche to hunt down Don Corneo "because it's our job".
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Old 06/25/2015   #14
Dragonslayer Ornstein
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boom clap, boom boom boom clap -

I can't see that sound fitting if they don't bop people.
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Old 06/25/2015   #15
CameoAmalthea
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You know, I think what I'd really like would be more On The Way To A Smile adaptions and interquels explaining how everyone comes to terms with each other- because I just never got the jump from OG to how friendly Tifa is in game. I mean - at the end of the game you have the option not to fight the Turks if you teamed up in Wutai - but I guess I never got not hating them and I'd like it spelled out more.

I mean, maybe this means I'm not a nice person but like when they come upon Tseng bleeding to death outside the temple of the ancients, if it were me, seeing what they'd seen - part of me would want to just kick him while he's down - preferably somewhere painful.
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