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Old 05/09/2018   #76
Clement Rage
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For a Time Guardian, the Guardian doesn't seem super skilled at guarding anything.

The Turks get past, Sephiroth gets past, the party gets past, and it doesn't even seem to try to stop them. The best it can do is try to trip them into the not bottomless pit, which the party just shrugs off. Neither pit nor giant spinny clock is available in Seventh Heaven.

If its role is guarding time, then it doesn't seem to have quelled the Chocobo Carriage Driver's infrequent meddling with the time stream.

The only weapon it has that is available in Seventh Heaven is its desperate last resort, passive-aggressively pointing to the exit, which Cloud's mother is clearly strong willed enough to ignore.

As a woman living alone in an isolated town surrounded by dangerous monsters, we can expect Cloud's Mom to have basic combat abilities. If TG has a body, she can put them to use, but none of its normal tactics work outside the clock room.
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Old 05/09/2018   #77
Channy
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Bforbrigitta wrote: The Time Guardian's job is to observe time and ensure that all occurring events are in line with what is destined to happen, no?

Therefore, without Cloud's mother, there would be no Cloud. There would be no coincidental run-in with Barret and co., there would be no AVALANCHE, and therefore there would be no ragtag team of misfit heroes to thwart JENOVA and Meteorfall.

The destruction of Gaia does not align with the interests of the universe, and therefore the Time Guardian has no obligation to disrupt this chain of events.

It is because of this that Cloud's mother, the one who gave life to Cloud and helped steer him along his destined path, is untouchable to the Time Guardian.
Wouldn't you argue that without time and certain events occurring in time, nothing would even cease to be in our little VII world? If it weren't for the Time Guardian observing and ensuring that certain events took place, there wouldn't even BE Cloud's Mum to begin with? Therefor that Cloud wouldn't exist were it not for the Time Guardian, coaxing certain events into play?

LicoriceAllsorts wrote: But what if it were a nagging smackdown? Who then would throw in the towel first? Not Mrs Strife, that's for sure. She's such a champion nagger, her son literally can't remember her doing anything else. She's got in way more than the 10,000 hours of nagging practice needed to become an expert. Nothing less than Sephiroth's masamune could silence her.

And let's not forget that mother love is the most powerful force in the universe.
But alas, there's no nagging to be had here. Though I'm certain that if Cloud's mum was face to clockface with the Time Guardian, he could fastforward time until she nagged herself out of breath or, even into death.
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So, why do you come here?
Same as you, I think. I've been here a lot...
You must have a lot going on your mind, I suppose.
Yeah, but I'd rather have nothing for a change. How do you do it?
Well, it comes with practice. I can think of nothing.
I do not feel the need to occupy my mind with nonsense, just to avoid thinking about what really matters.

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Old 05/09/2018   #78
Elessar
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My case against Cloud's Mum:

Time:


Guardian:


Lord:


Conclusion:

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Old 05/09/2018   #79
LicoriceAllsorts
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But is the Time Guardian allowed to fastforward time? Since he's the Time Guardian, seems like his one job is to guard it, and not let it start doing all kinds of wacky irresponsible things.

Mrs Strife is a great housewife. I'm sure she could clean his clock.
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Old 05/09/2018   #80
Channy
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What could Mrs Strife do if she couldn’t even keep her husband and son? Everyone seems to abandon her without notion. Not someone very worthy of a victory if you ask me.
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So, why do you come here?
Same as you, I think. I've been here a lot...
You must have a lot going on your mind, I suppose.
Yeah, but I'd rather have nothing for a change. How do you do it?
Well, it comes with practice. I can think of nothing.
I do not feel the need to occupy my mind with nonsense, just to avoid thinking about what really matters.

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Old 05/09/2018   #81
LicoriceAllsorts
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The elder Mr Strife didn't abandon his wife and child. The very idea! He was lost in an avalanche while guiding a party across the mountains from Nibelheim to Rocket Town. Nor did Cloud abandon his mother. He left home to follow his dream, like most young people do, or would if they could afford it. When he came back to Nibelheim after two years, he made a point of visiting with his mother; in fact, they were so close that he was able to ask her to keep his presence in Nibelheim a secret - and she did. When Cloud realised Sephiroth was running amok, he went straight to check on his mother. When he challenged Sephiroth in the reactor, he listed the things he cared about in order of importance: "Mom... Tifa...... my town... give it back..."

Abandoning his mother was the last thing on his mind.
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Old 05/09/2018   #82
Ergo
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Interestingly all the arguments regarding clouds mother all rely on her son's accomplishments or actions. She has no notable actions of her own to speak of and even her son fails to remember much about her other than she wanted him to quit his dream and marry a cougar.

Time guardian on the other hand doesn't care what occurs in the world, his one purpose is to record what occurs so that a record of every action in humanitys existence is recorded so that others may learn from the past.

Time guardian doesn't need a son to validate its own existence as it wholeheartedly knows what it's doing is benefitting others.
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Old 05/09/2018   #83
f a n c y
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We’re getting close to the halfway point of the match and given that majority of Team Moogle members has been relatively quiet, I’mma step in on their behalf and help kick some booty.

The strongest argument that’s been laid before the Time Guardian’s feet is that they will be nagged to submission by Cloud’s Mother.



That’s cute.

This is the Time Guardian who’s been around, presumably, since the start of time. What entity would be better suited to have the patience enough to outlast the nagging of a mere mortal??

I think the elephant in the room here is that this match is a joke. A mockery!

Mrs Strife, I’m a fan of your work, and I’mma let you finish.

But what chance does some randy from an inconsequential little town stand before the gatdamn Guardian of gatdamn Time?

Clement Rage has pointed out that the Turks and Sephiroth can get past this mighty guardian. Yeah, yeah, true. But those are The Turks and Sephiroth--a group of trained assassins and a superhuman killer. Who is Mrs Strife again? Just a normal human with average strength and no special training at all.

Spectators, do humour me and answer me this. Say you had to spend 24 hours locked in a room and you got to choose to spend those 24 hours with either Post-Nibelheim Burning, Bloody Thirsty Sephiroth or Sweet, Normal Mrs Strife who might, at worst, comment on your scruffy appearance and affectionately pat away at the invisible dust on your clothes. Who would you pick?

That’s what I thought.

Comparing the two is like comparing molten lava to marshmallow fluff. Only one of them is gonna kill ya if you stand too close.

Mrs Strife is a presumably kind but simple woman. She minds her business and minds her boy. Fighting and violence is not her forte. She may be a hardier woman than most city slickers as my opponent Clement Rage has suggested due to her living in the countryside. But has she gone out in the world and seen the big scary things that are out there? No. Surely not. Surely she’s never quite faced anything in lil’ old, quiet Nibelheim like the Time Guardian. The Time Guardian on the other hand? Oi, you better believe after all these centuries, it has seen it all. And this mortal is just a blip on its radar. As one of my teammates has pointed out, her greatest claim to fame is being Cloud Strife's mother. The woman doesn't even have a first name.

Mrs Strife would already be rattled by her surroundings as she takes in the fact she’s found herself in the seedy establishment of Seventh Heaven in the middle of the slums--so far from the open, clear air and blue skies of Nibelheim. She’ll be chocking on the stench of hobo sweat, urine, and bin juice wafting in from outside, overwhelmed by the feelings of solitude in such a strange foreign place.

You take this shaken woman and reveal the great, terrible Time Guardian and it’s large gaping mouth to her and well…

Someone fetch the smelling salts ‘cuz I do believe we have a woman down! Woman down!

Run on back to Nibelheim, Not-Even-Significant-Enough-To-Merit-A-First-Name Strife!
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Old 05/09/2018   #84
Channy
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I don’t know that we ever get a proper explanation for Strife Sr. Though I’m not entirely convinced he was simply lost to us. Cloud never speaks of his father. He does speak of his mother but not his father, not once. I’m still shooting for abandonment here.

But ergo raises an excellent point in that Cloud’s mum is aimple known as just that. Cloud’s mum. She doesn’t even warrant a name. There’s very little distinguishing her from the Chocobo Driver in this respect. Where he shuttled whores through the slums in his carriage, she shuttled Cloud through her vagina.
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So, why do you come here?
Same as you, I think. I've been here a lot...
You must have a lot going on your mind, I suppose.
Yeah, but I'd rather have nothing for a change. How do you do it?
Well, it comes with practice. I can think of nothing.
I do not feel the need to occupy my mind with nonsense, just to avoid thinking about what really matters.

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Old 05/09/2018   #85
Minato
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In the end the Time Guardian is just a puzzle, it's a good and dangerous puzzle, as the puzzle in the Temple of Ancients make it shrink in size until one is crushed down into the Black Materia but here it's transported into a harmless location and it's faced with the most down to earth person in FFVII.

The Time Guardian entices it's victims with the knowledge of the Ancients, Mrs Strife doesn't give a fig about such high minded pursuits. She keeps her mind on what is healthy and safe for her and her son. She's certainly not like to partake in reversing, or speeding up time. And what does that leave her with but a big clock with an ugly face on it that needs disassembling and she's got nothing but time on her hands and a defenseless victim at her mercy.

Even if her opponent was equipped with legs, arms and opposable thumbs (it isn't), this arena offers tools far more familiar to a housewife. the gas powered stove, the alchohol, the matches for smoking patrons, this place could be rigged to blow by anyone familiar with household tools. Mrs Cloud could escape this easily constructed timebomb through the door, through the vent, if she discovers it passage under the jukebox, even hide in the fridge. The Time Guardian cannot escape any fate Mrs. Cloud constructs for him however. He can hasten it, or postpone it but before the end of time, he must face it eventually.
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Old 05/09/2018   #86
LicoriceAllsorts
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(Edited to add: a lot of posts happened while I was writing this. I also realised, when I went to take it out of the oven, that I'd forgotten to put my chicken in in the oven. Now I'm hungry.)

Exactly! Time Guardian doesn't care what's happening in the world! So it's not going to care whether it beats Mrs Strife or not. And if it doesn't care, it's not going to try. It's one purpose is to record what occurs. It can't do anything else; it doesn't want to do anything else. It'll be so busy recording, "Mrs Strife just twisted my arm behind my back" and "Mrs Strife just locked me in a half-nelson" and "Mrs Strife just floored me with a particularly well executed body drop" it won't have the time, the energy or the interest to take a pop at her.

Oh, you though Tifa was the only student in Nibelheim benefitting from Zangan's tuition? Think again. After her husband died Mrs Strife knew she'd better start learning some self-defense if she was going to survive on her own in the man's world of a remote mountain village. Remember how in Before Crisis: Episode Rayleigh, the player Turk remarks on the insane sword skills of the insignificant no-name grunt partnered with her on the mission to keep the secret of SOLDIER from falling into the hands of AVALANCHE? No?

Ok, here's the link

Who do you think Cloud learned his sword-fighting skills from? Tifa? Tifa's dad? No, there was only one person in Nibelheim who loved that little boy enough to pass down to him her well-honed survival skills: his mom.
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Old 05/09/2018   #87
f a n c y
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Old 05/09/2018   #88
LicoriceAllsorts
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Trying a different line of attack
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Old 05/09/2018   #89
f a n c y
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LicoriceAllsorts wrote:
Exactly! Time Guardian doesn't care what's happening in the world! So it's not going to care whether it beats Mrs Strife or not. And if it doesn't care, it's not going to try. It's one purpose is to record what occurs. It can't do anything else; it doesn't want to do anything else. It'll be so busy recording, "Mrs Strife just twisted my arm behind my back" and "Mrs Strife just locked me in a half-nelson" and "Mrs Strife just floored me with a particularly well executed body drop" it won't have the time, the energy or the interest to take a pop at her.
The last I checked, the Time Guardian is a giant mouth on an ancient rock. No arms to be twisted or nelsons to be wrestled into!

Absolutely agreed that the Time Guardian doesnít care for Mrs Strife, as insignificant as she is in the larger scale of things. However, these are special circumstances. The Guardian has been moved from its usual place and senses that this mortal is in the way of it returning home.

It wants to get things over with. Itís going to act.

As patient as Mrs Strife is, she is merely human and even she would run out of patience and want to leave the establishment of Seventh Heaven as the Guardian would. All alone with just the Guardian for company, she would begin to lose her mind. And if her mental endurance is anything like her poor sonís then, well, losing the mind wouldnít be too hard.

She cannot hurt the thing. She may only speak with it. And through speaking with it, she would eventually grow to trust it. Be seduced by it. And seduced she would be! We humans are hopeless, desperately lonely, incredibly social creatures. We need to feel as though someone is on our side. This entity has no such need, but has had centuries of practising on mere mortals. It has all the time it needs to get Mrs Strife on its side. Mrs Strife, however, acutely aware of her own mortality, desperate to get out of the trash dump that is the slums, would quickly fall under itís spell.

Once sheís in the Time Guardianís grasp, much like a puppet (I guess it runs in the family), it will do whatever needs to be done and lead her where it needs to lead. Maybe onto Seventh Heavenís roof where it talks her into taking a little dive down, her mind too torn apart to resist or question the Guardianís demands.


LicoriceAllsorts wrote: Who do you think Cloud learned his sword-fighting skills from? Tifa? Tifa's dad? No, there was only one person in Nibelheim who loved that little boy enough to pass down to him her well-honed survival skills: his mom.

My opponent suggests that Cloud gets his swordsmanship skills from his mother, but this is a fallacy! My opponent suggests that heís learnt his skills from his mum who mustíve learnt hers from Zangan. This is all fine and dandy and perfectly plausible...EXCEPT for the fact that you must consider that Zangan specialises in martial arts who trains his students in self-defense. Are you suggesting to me that Mrs Strife studied martial arts under Zangan and that these skills magically translated to swordsmanship when she passed them on to Cloud?

Swordsmanship and Martial Arts are two very different disciplines, my dear spectators.

So that must be A LIE.

What is much more likely is that Cloud befriended the esteemed and highly talented Zack Fair after joining the Shinra army and was taking private lessons with his mentor. Zack was very friendly and itís very easy to imagine that heíd want to see anyone eager to follow their dreams succeed. Especially someone as shy and reserved as Cloud. So Zack would take the time whenever heíd find it, tap into Cloudís natural talent for swordsmanship and train the future hero of the Planet. Miles and miles away from quiet, little Nibelheim where Mrs Strife was probably knitting scarves and baking cookies and other super sweet non-violent activities.
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Old 05/10/2018   #90
Clement Rage
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I believe it's canon that Cloud's father died when he was young...although maybe his Mom just told him that. But I digress. It's like the first line of the flashback or something.

The Time Guardian is well qualified to understand the value of the passage of time. He has duties to get back to, guarding the temple, so he can't just hang out in a bar for all time in order to one up some lady. And meddling with time is not something to be done lightly. Power over time didn't save Chocobo Driver, and it's not going to save TG.

She may be a hardier woman than most city slickers as my opponent Clement Rage has suggested due to her living in the countryside. But has she gone out in the world and seen the big scary things that are out there?
She doesn't have to go out into the world to see big scary things. There are dragons in the mountains right beside her door. The same mountains that they send their teenage girls into as guides. I mean, Cosmo Canyon at least keeps its zombie cave locked, but this is a town that sends people into the dragon mountains fairly regularly.

Clement Rage has pointed out that the Turks and Sephiroth can get past this mighty guardian. Yeah, yeah, true. But those are The Turks and Sephiroth--a group of trained assassins and a superhuman killer. Who is Mrs Strife again? Just a normal human with average strength and no special training at all.
So does the party, with no indication that they need any more skill and strength than knowing how a clock works.

As for unfamiliar surroundings, the bar is run by her next door neighbour, I think she can cope. Bringing up a child alone doesn't leave you squeamish or easily rattled, even when you don't have to keep literal (Nibel) Wolves from the door.
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