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View Poll Results: Should the Thanks system continue?
Yes. 24 60.00%
Yes, but be restricted in certain sections (Discuss). 12 30.00%
No. 4 10.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04/16/2016   #136
Jason Tandro
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@Ghost: As is your right. Sorry it got this far.
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Old 04/16/2016   #137
X-SOLDIER
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Octo wrote: Right I haven't read the last page and a half. but Re: the new debate section as it has now been set up, there is no thanks and thats good. But I don't see how it would stop someone feeling ganged up upon if there are still going to be debates where its 1 vs 9 or whatever. Are we going to make it one on one debates or what?

I mean if the people in question are cool with it as it stands then I guess thats fine
Well, we'll never really be able to refine who feels how about what and ONLY let an equal number of those people discuss it - be it who you think should be president of the United States, or who you think that Cloud should date. This isn't a perfect Utopia, Octo.

Really though, I'm generally not the best person to ask about this, but I think that Flare's opinion from earlier is probably one of the more valid thoughts on how it feels being the minority member in a big debate, and how the new section alleviates concerns that the previous one didn't.

Others who feel this way are more than welcome to voice their opinions on it if they'd like.




X
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Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 04/16/2016   #138
Dawnbreaker
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@Gab: Excellent point there. If there's other issues at hand that people don't want to air everywhere, that's a great place to go. I've used it in the past and it's effective.

@X: well, I think we're just arguing the different points of possible censorship now. I don't really want to drag this out, since again, I'm none too fussed by it...it's just that whenever you eliminate an avenue to express an opinion (even one as being able to Thank something) that's still technically censorship. But you may have a point that it's a good thing, rather than a bad thing. After all, as you and others have said, this might encourage more meaningful discussion rather than a simple, silent Thanks. You're (and some others) really making me think differently about this, tbh. Good on you.

As for the other issues, whatever, I don't know. You can ask Ghost or whoever else has brought it up. I don't personally see any "ganging up on" or whatever, but I've been told it exists, so there you go. Ask around if you like.

@Claymore: Sorry, I missed what you said. Personally, I am not a huge fan of compromise if you can do collaboration instead. That's why I'm a strong supporter of "just disable Thanks for yourself". Why go to the effort splitting apart the forum when all you have to do is just disable it for yourself? That said, as I've said before, I'm not bothered by the rest of it.

I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.
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"I'll make you happy," said Life, "But first, I'll make you strong."

"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 04/16/2016   #139
X-SOLDIER
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Dawnbreaker wrote: @X: well, I think we're just arguing the different points of possible censorship now. I don't really want to drag this out, since again, I'm none to fussed by it...it's just that whenever you eliminate an avenue to express an opinion (even one as being able to Thank something) that's still technically censorship. But you may have a point that it's a good thing, rather than a bad thing. After all, as you and others have said, this might encourage more meaningful discussion rather than a simple silent Thanks. You're really making me think differently about this, tbh. Good on you.

As for the other issues, whatever, I don't know. You can Ghost or whoever else has brought it up. I don't personally see any "ganging up on" or whatever, but I've been told it exists, so there you go. Ask around if you like.
We could probably split hairs 'til the cows come home about required conduct for expression vs. censorship, but I think that at this point, the trial run of the Blind Debate section will have to speak for itself on which it ends up feeling most like, since theory and practice are frequently quite different.

Gabe's recommendation of the Private Feedback Forum, other posts here, or Ghost posting anonymous opinions are what I'll hold reservation on that end of the conversation for, and since they've yet to've been made, I'll wait to hear them before making any other comments about them.




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…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 04/16/2016   #140
Jason Tandro
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Dawnbreaker wrote: I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.
Like when my wife wants to listen to the Mamma Mia! soundtrack in the car...




==

I think it's clear that we've got a solution here. I personally really like the idea of the new section. Might be a good idea to leave it here since it seems we're just going in circles - though I don't want to discourage those who haven't had the chance to speak yet from speaking up.
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Old 04/16/2016   #141
Howl
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Do we all realize that we're talking about a thanks button on a videa gamez forum when there are worse things happening in the world?

Me, personally...if I had an issue with this (or any other) forum based on the way things are done (including the Thanks system) I probably would have simply left and found something different. Having a thanks button is not that big of a deal. It's a button...on a forum..for video games...am I the only one who feels that this is at least borderline trivial?

There's a guy living under a makeshift blanket-tent and some trees down the street from me (insert similar issues all across the world here) and at least one person thinks that bringing up buttons on a gaming forum is worth everyone's time.

Sorry, but no. I'm usually very open minded about everything but on this matter all I'm doing is shaking my head.
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Old 04/16/2016   #142
Dawnbreaker
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I agree entirely with you, X. Maybe this is the perfect solution. Giving it a try certainly isn't a bad thing at all.

As for the "other issues", yes, until they are made clear, I don't think the staff should have to comment on them. I don't intend to either, anymore.
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"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.

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Old 04/16/2016   #143
Cat Rage Room
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Howland Reed wrote: Do we all realize that we're talking about a thanks button on a videa gamez forum when there are worse things happening in the world?

Me, personally...if I had an issue with this (or any other) forum based on the way things are done (including the Thanks system) I probably would have simply left and found something different. Having a thanks button is not that big of a deal. It's a button...on a forum..for video games...am I the only one who feels that this is at least borderline trivial?

There's a guy living under a makeshift blanket-tent and some trees down the street from me (insert similar issues all across the world here) and at least one person thinks that bringing up buttons on a gaming forum is worth everyone's time.

Sorry, but no. I'm usually very open minded about everything but on this matter all I'm doing is shaking my head.
Amen to this.
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Old 04/16/2016   #144
Starling
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@Ghost: I'm pretty sure Dawn just wanted you to apologize for the way you said what you did rather than what you were saying. That's not so much making you the bad guy as wanting an apology for something they found hurtful or unnecessary before getting back to discussing what you're disagreeing about. It's where people say stuff like that and refuse to apologize because they think it means going back on their opinion that disagreements start getting out of hand. You go from something that just required a simple apology to hating each other because the person being asked doesn't want to offer one. Some people are willing to wait for an apology but the longer it takes, the more you hurt whatever relation you have to that person. You see stuff like that all over the forums. Just so you know, the way you're turning things around in your refusal to apologize is just making things worse. Please, just set aside the argument and deal with that first.

@X: I wouldn't say the issue is quite resolved when multiple people have expressed concerns that the problems associated with the thanks system isn't really caused by it and would therefore remain whether it's present or not. Despite expressing the need to discuss that before taking action on anything, it was basically glossed over in favour of everything else going on in the thread and then left undiscussed when people started considering the whole thing resolved.

Really thinking about it, the feeling of everyone being stacked against you or no one agrees with what you're saying is something that'll remain even if you can only see all the posts disagreeing with you and the absence of other people posting in agreement of what you're saying. I'll say that when I had that feeling on the forums, it was because I felt like the person I was debating with wasn't listening to what I was saying or was being disrespectful to me and no one was speaking up for anything as simple as showing I wasn't the only one having that issue with the way they were speaking to me. That's not an issue removing the thanks system is going to fix.

About what I said about the new subforum: I figured a fresh start would let people have the debate without all the baggage from before. Sure the older threads have a bunch of useful information but links can stop working and information can get outdated. Seeing as the threads still exist and you'd have to scroll through them to read the info anyway, I don't see separating them as making it much harder to find it. The forum even has a search function you can use for it.
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Old 04/16/2016   #145
Jason Tandro
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I am right there with you Howl, on a personal level. I don't mind discussing but per my earlier stated personal opinion - if this is bothering somebody maybe... too bad?

Still I don't mind discussing anything because there are merits, but as Dawn and many others have said I don't think this is about the Thanks system as much as it is about the overarching issues of the view of outsiders and us, which is something we should address. Still as the Thanks system exists in and of itself I think what X has done was the perfect solution for the time being.
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Old 04/16/2016   #146
Octo
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Can we draw a line under the Dawn and Ghost thing please. They're quite capable of resolving the issue between themselves. Regardless it doesn't need to derail this thread.
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Old 04/16/2016   #147
X-SOLDIER
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Starling wrote: @X: I wouldn't say the issue is quite resolved when multiple people have expressed concerns that the problems associated with the thanks system isn't really caused by it and would therefore remain whether it's present or not. Despite expressing the need to discuss that before taking action on anything, it was basically glossed over in favour of everything else going on in the thread and then left undiscussed when people started considering the whole thing resolved.

Really thinking about it, the feeling of everyone being stacked against you or no one agrees with what you're saying is something that'll remain even if you can only see all the posts disagreeing with you and the absence of other people posting in agreement of what you're saying. I'll say that when I had that feeling on the forums, it was because I felt like the person I was debating with wasn't listening to what I was saying or was being disrespectful to me and no one was speaking up for anything as simple as showing I wasn't the only one having that issue with the way they were speaking to me. That's not an issue removing the thanks system is going to fix.

About what I said about the new subforum: I figured a fresh start would let people have the debate without all the baggage from before. Sure the older threads have a bunch of useful information but links can stop working and information can get outdated. Seeing as the threads still exist and you'd have to scroll through them to read the info anyway, I don't see separating them as making it much harder to find it. The forum even has a search function you can use for it.
Well, I'm still waiting on hearing more specific information about what the issue that exists outside the Thanks system itself is. As I've said in the end of multiple replies to Dawn's post – until there's more specific information on exactly what that is, we can't address it. Regardless, that's still an ENTIRELY separate issue from what's being done with the Blind Debate section.

Additionally, as I mentioned to Octo, we'll never be able to make an equal number of people have conflicting opinions, and that wasn't ever something that the Blind Debate section was meant to do either. Like the previous issue, those are things that are dealt with on a more specific basis by the Staff or Community accordingly.

Lastly, the Blind Debate section itself wasn't ever meant to be a hard, new fresh start for all debates on TLS. I'm not going to split the debates between two threads, because that'd be counter-productive. Additionally, closing the existing threads would be doing a huge injustice to them, because we're not forcing anyone to use the sub-forum. Because threads can be moved both into or out of the Blind Debate area at the desire of the people involved with them, it doesn't make sense to close the thread when it might not remain there.

We're not stopping any of the ongoing debates or forcing people to discuss things in one location or another like closing the threads and making new ones would be doing. The threads' presence in that sub-section is an organic process that is managed by each thread's individual necessity as judged by the people partaking in them and can be reevaluated at any time.




X
__________________
Cyclops. Is. Right.





…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

#TotzCanon


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Old 04/16/2016   #148
Claymore
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Dawnbreaker wrote: @Claymore: Sorry, I missed what you said. Personally, I am not a huge fan of compromise if you can do collaboration instead. That's why I'm a strong supporter of "just disable Thanks for yourself". Why go to the effort splitting apart the forum when all you have to do is just disable it for yourself? That said, as I've said before, I'm not bothered by the rest of it.

I can not like something because I disagree with it and still not fight it.
Er ... what now? How did I get dragged back into this craziness?
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Old 04/16/2016   #149
Dawnbreaker
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Dammnit, sorry, Claymore, I think it was Minato who said the thing about compromise. Whoops. Sorry. :/
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"You can do everything right and still lose. That is not weakness; that is Life." Jean-Luc Picard / Patrick Stewart

"It may well be that we will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people." Martin Luthar King Jr.


Last edited by Dawnbreaker; 04/16/2016 at 10:03 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 04/16/2016   #150
Starling
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X-SOLDIER wrote: Well, I'm still waiting on hearing more specific information about what the issue that exists outside the Thanks system itself is. As I've said in the end of multiple replies to Dawn's post – until there's more specific information on exactly what that is, we can't address it. Regardless, that's still an ENTIRELY separate issue from what's being done with the Blind Debate section.
Didn't I just provide an example of that? The problem attributed to the thanks system is the feeling of being ganged up on or like no one is supporting your opinion. A lack of verbal support won't really be fixed purely from removing thanks from the equation. That kind of thing occurs in heated debates, which involves additional factors not being considered. They're still tied to debates, which is what prompted the thanks talk to begin with. Because of that, I wouldn't say it's an entirely separate issue. The whole point of bringing this up was that the thanks system might not be the real problem to begin with. If we don't talk about other debate problems and how they relate to each other, how would we know? Right now it's largely assumed the thanks system is the problem without really bothering to check if there's a deeper problem to deal with and it'll continue to be ignored if you dismiss it as a separate issue instead of actually talking about it.

Additionally, as I mentioned to Octo, we'll never be able to make an equal number of people have conflicting opinions, and that wasn't ever something that the Blind Debate section was meant to do either. Like the previous issue, those are things that are dealt with on a more specific basis by the Staff or Community accordingly.
That doesn't quite encompass the issue I brought up. Not everyone has to fully agree on something but they may not agree point for point with either "side" of the opposing opinions discussed. There would be some in the middle. Just having those people in the middle can make a difference and make debates less polarized. Likewise, things like someone speaking up when they see what someone is saying get dismissed without really being addressed can make a difference too.

The way I see it, the debate issues all come into play when things start to get heated. Thus, you need to ask why things get heated. It seems that debates get heated when people feel aggravated. Why do they feel aggravated? For a number of reasons that include things like the argument going nowhere, feeling like they aren't being listened to, feeling talked down to or otherwise disrespected, etc. Wouldn't that make them feel the same way as what people have been attributing to the thanks system? So then how would dealing with the thanks system actually solve that? We need to look at the bigger picture.

Lastly, the Blind Debate section itself wasn't ever meant to be a hard, new fresh start for all debates on TLS. I'm not going to split the debates between two threads, because that'd be counter-productive. Additionally, closing the existing threads would be doing a huge injustice to them, because we're not forcing anyone to use the sub-forum. Because threads can be moved both into or out of the Blind Debate area at the desire of the people involved with them, it doesn't make sense to close the thread when it might not remain there.

We're not stopping any of the ongoing debates or forcing people to discuss things in one location or another like closing the threads and making new ones would be doing. The threads' presence in that sub-section is an organic process that is managed by each thread's individual necessity as judged by the people partaking in them and can be reevaluated at any time.
I was a bit preoccupied with keeping up with the discussion on this thread so I wasn't clear on the details of what you were planning on doing with the subforum. I wouldn't call closing a thread a disrespect, considering some threads simply get closed due to sheer length and then a new thread is made to continue the discussion without having to deal with that. That said, I got the chance to read up on how you're using it and the fact that the threads will be moving around as needed suffices to explain why a fresh start wouldn't make sense. I initially had the impression threads were permanently being moved to the subforum and that simply making new versions of the threads in that section would allow people to get into the topic without being weighed down by prior out of hand portions of those debates.
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