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View Poll Results: Should the Thanks system continue?
Yes. 24 60.00%
Yes, but be restricted in certain sections (Discuss). 12 30.00%
No. 4 10.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04/16/2016   #151
X-SOLDIER
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Starling wrote: Didn't I just provide an example of that? The problem attributed to the thanks system is the feeling of being ganged up on or like no one is supporting your opinion. A lack of verbal support won't really be fixed purely from removing thanks from the equation. That kind of thing occurs in heated debates, which involves additional factors not being considered. They're still tied to debates, which is what prompted the thanks talk to begin with. Because of that, I wouldn't say it's an entirely separate issue. The whole point of bringing this up was that the thanks system might not be the real problem to begin with. If we don't talk about other debate problems and how they relate to each other, how would we know? Right now it's largely assumed the thanks system is the problem without really bothering to check if there's a deeper problem to deal with and it'll continue to be ignored if you dismiss it as a separate issue instead of actually talking about it.

That doesn't quite encompass the issue I brought up. Not everyone has to fully agree on something but they may not agree point for point with either "side" of the opposing opinions discussed. There would be some in the middle. Just having those people in the middle can make a difference and make debates less polarized. Likewise, things like someone speaking up when they see what someone is saying get dismissed without really being addressed can make a difference too.

The way I see it, the debate issues all come into play when things start to get heated. Thus, you need to ask why things get heated. It seems that debates get heated when people feel aggravated. Why do they feel aggravated? For a number of reasons that include things like the argument going nowhere, feeling like they aren't being listened to, feeling talked down to or otherwise disrespected, etc. Wouldn't that make them feel the same way as what people have been attributing to the thanks system? So then how would dealing with the thanks system actually solve that? We need to look at the bigger picture.
The issue that we have been seeing (and are testing with the Blind Debate forum) is largely what was being seen in the Presidential Debate thread: i.e. most all of us here're fairly liberal, so the more conservative viewpoints are visually less supported by the Thanks system, and it's a little more tough for those users to keep making them and feel that they have the same level of validation in their opinions. There IS a reason to support that more neutral mindset in the trial that we're doing with the removal of the Thanks system for it and various other debate threads as a test run.

Additionally, we're not ignoring the other potential issues that have been raised of people's misconduct in heated debates. That's... literally the whole job of the Moderation Staff, and we're still doing it. If something's getting out-of-hand there's a whole system that's already in place of taking care of that. No one's even remotely suggesting that what's being done with the Blind Debate section is a magical fix-all for having wonderful debates that will be perfect and fair and never become heated.

These are completely different things, and I've re-stated a few times that we're waiting on more information for what the "other issues" are by the folks that are experiencing them. Again - without specific examples, we can't do anything meaningful to fix them. Lastly, people who're of the mindset that they just dislike the Thanks system in general also have an option for just disabling it, so that it's not there for them for all intents and purposes.



tl;dr - This thread has fractured into 3 different things:

• People who dislike the Thanks system entirely:
- These folks are the vast minority, and have the option of removing the Thanks system for just themselves.
• Debates that could use a more flatly objective interaction:
- This is what the trial of the Blind Debate section is for
• Clique-y or other ganging-up-type behaviour:
- This's what we're still waiting on more information for before suggesting potential ways to alleviate the issues being felt by whomever is feeling them.



Starling wrote: I was a bit preoccupied with keeping up with the discussion on this thread so I wasn't clear on the details of what you were planning on doing with the subforum. I wouldn't call closing a thread a disrespect, considering some threads simply get closed due to sheer length and then a new thread is made to continue the discussion without having to deal with that. That said, I got the chance to read up on how you're using it and the fact that the threads will be moving around as needed suffices to explain why a fresh start wouldn't make sense. I initially had the impression threads were permanently being moved to the subforum and that simply making new versions of the threads in that section would allow people to get into the topic without being weighed down by prior out of hand portions of those debates.
No worries. This thread's been a tiny little bit nuts.




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Old 04/16/2016   #152
Tetsujin
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I like the Thanks button because it has a cookie monster on it
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Old 04/16/2016   #153
Channy
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I'm intrigued by the whole "TLS is getting a bit cliquey" argument because as far as I know, TLS is and has been the least cliquey in all its years since its inception. But maybe I'm missing something here or not reading inbetween the lines of the thread.
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Old 04/17/2016   #154
ForceStealer
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^I definitely agree there.

Furthermore, I find that this thread going 11 pages seems to make the whole idea that having a Thanks button makes people less likely to add their own discussions to a debate a bit...suspect.
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Old 04/17/2016   #155
Unit-01
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Man I didn't know this was going to be a topic for discussion. I would've actually checked the forum in the last two days.

But I'll go through and see what everyone else has said, seems to be a very hot topic.

So this Thanks system is something that is new to me, coming from two other forums that had no such system. And I do like it, cause at the very least if no-one responds to you, but someone thanks your posts, you know that people have at least read it.
The BIG issue for me on the other forums is that they aren't as active as TLS is, but there tends to be times when i will post this huge thing and no-one responds to it. Which sucks... a lot.... it really does. Hell even making my Hello thread when I first joined a few months ago, it was awesome to see everyone say "Welcome" to me and for people to acknowledge that I was here now.

But at the same time, now that I've been here for a little while, people will get more Thanks than me, which is to be understood since I'm new. And some of the posts I've made have been in confusion and really don't warrant it. But at the same time I'll make a post agreeing with someone who got a lot of thanks, and then I'll maybe get one or two which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since in those cases I'm expanding on what person A had already said, and it seems no one acknowledges it. Maybe that's still because I'm new, and I just need to spend more time here. Either way, that's my two cents on it.


Also I just try to avoid the serious topic discussions like Religion, etc. But I can't agree with one opinion being favored over another, due to the Thanks system. If anything it should be removed from those topics.

They aren't like Final Fantasy discussions where even if we do have disagreements in those threads, it isn't too much arguing and if now deals solely with Remake content and boils down to what we think is good for the game vs what someone else thinks is good. Which is never as serious as what one might think on Donald Trump vs Bernie Sanders or whatever you guys discuss on that thread.
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Old 04/17/2016   #156
Literally Who?
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Channizard wrote: I'm intrigued by the whole "TLS is getting a bit cliquey" argument because as far as I know, TLS is and has been the least cliquey in all its years since its inception. But maybe I'm missing something here or not reading inbetween the lines of the thread.
Best example of TLS cliqueyness would probably be like 2011 , 2012-ish off the top of my head? I think if you go scanning around the archives for big threads around that time you can probably see a pattern emerge.

FWIW I would say its a very stark difference in tone comparing TLS then to TLS today.
That's why I find it hard to believe people legitimately feel there is a clique or group bias going around because as I've said a few times on here things have been pretty lax. Especially compared to back then when things felt very malicious and "Them vs Us"

But I'll give people the benefit of the doubt if there people who feel left out. I won't tell them to get thick skin or say "you don't have it so bad". I'd just like to try and remind them were not trying to be malicious here and we want TLS to be a community and hopefully we can fix it



It reminds me of my guild in WoW. We are a casual/hardcore raiding guild. I know dumb combo. Point is we look for people who want to raid the hardest content in the game but were totally cool with bringing in level 10's so they don't feel lonely and stuff.

Well there was one case where this guy just happened to only log in during our Raid hours and would often say "Hey" in guild chat and not get much response, due to us getting our asses handed to us by the content. Well this went on for awhile till he left the guild since he thought we didn't want to interact with him.

I hit him up in a pm and just let him know that he basically only played when we had legitimately the least amount of focus available to non-raid stuff lol.

TL;DR it's easy to take things personal or feel left out, but sometimes you just gotta consider that there is context you are missing out on and we didn't mean to make you feel excluded.
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Old 04/17/2016   #157
X-SOLDIER
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Sicarius VI wrote: Man I didn't know this was going to be a topic for discussion. I would've actually checked the forum in the last two days.

But I'll go through and see what everyone else has said, seems to be a very hot topic.

So this Thanks system is something that is new to me, coming from two other forums that had no such system. And I do like it, cause at the very least if no-one responds to you, but someone thanks your posts, you know that people have at least read it.
The BIG issue for me on the other forums is that they aren't as active as TLS is, but there tends to be times when i will post this huge thing and no-one responds to it. Which sucks... a lot.... it really does. Hell even making my Hello thread when I first joined a few months ago, it was awesome to see everyone say "Welcome" to me and for people to acknowledge that I was here now.
Thanks for the post & opinion (and I don't think that ANYONE knew it'd blow up like it did). It's really nice seeing the perspective from some of the newer folk.

Sicarius VI wrote: But at the same time, now that I've been here for a little while, people will get more Thanks than me, which is to be understood since I'm new. And some of the posts I've made have been in confusion and really don't warrant it. But at the same time I'll make a post agreeing with someone who got a lot of thanks, and then I'll maybe get one or two which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since in those cases I'm expanding on what person A had already said, and it seems no one acknowledges it. Maybe that's still because I'm new, and I just need to spend more time here. Either way, that's my two cents on it.


Also I just try to avoid the serious topic discussions like Religion, etc. But I can't agree with one opinion being favored over another, due to the Thanks system. If anything it should be removed from those topics.

They aren't like Final Fantasy discussions where even if we do have disagreements in those threads, it isn't too much arguing and if now deals solely with Remake content and boils down to what we think is good for the game vs what someone else thinks is good. Which is never as serious as what one might think on Donald Trump vs Bernie Sanders or whatever you guys discuss on that thread.
If you do see things like this, and can send me examples, I'd like to take a look at 'em. I think it'll give me a better idea of how to address that sort of thing.

Also, the LTD thread is one that might could've used it, since I think that some folks take that at least as seriously as we take the presidential discussion. That's why the Blind Debate section has the capability of absorbing a thread from any section.




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…Xenomorphaux Pas…



Shademp – on the subject of my seemingly boundless optimism wrote: After Ungoliant had sucked the light from the trees Telperion and Laurelin, she found that there was a third tree but whose light was too potent and immortal for her to absorb. Thusly, Ungoliant left Valinor in tears for she could not absorb the light of the tree named X-SOLDIER.

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Old 04/17/2016   #158
Lex
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^As an aside X, be careful if you're deciding to move the LTD threads since they're actually in their own subsection due to needing very particular permissions. I've completely forgotten why, though there's obviously a reason is shouldn't be moved from there. If you're removing thanks from it you'd be better doing so from its own section permissions, since it has its own section.

section section section
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Old 04/17/2016   #159
Strangelove
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Lex wrote: they're actually in their own subsection due to needing very particular permissions. I've completely forgotten why
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Old 04/17/2016   #160
Chloe Frazer
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Please don't put the LTD thread in there, I'd like for it to stay where it is and people forget about it existing.
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Old 04/17/2016   #161
Channy
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ForceStealer wrote: ^I definitely agree there.

Furthermore, I find that this thread going 11 pages seems to make the whole idea that having a Thanks button makes people less likely to add their own discussions to a debate a bit...suspect.
This was so much like a double negative that I couldn't quite follow... please explain in channy laymans terms.

Gabriel wrote:
Channizard wrote: I'm intrigued by the whole "TLS is getting a bit cliquey" argument because as far as I know, TLS is and has been the least cliquey in all its years since its inception. But maybe I'm missing something here or not reading inbetween the lines of the thread.
Best example of TLS cliqueyness would probably be like 2011 , 2012-ish off the top of my head? I think if you go scanning around the archives for big threads around that time you can probably see a pattern emerge.

FWIW I would say its a very stark difference in tone comparing TLS then to TLS today.
That's why I find it hard to believe people legitimately feel there is a clique or group bias going around because as I've said a few times on here things have been pretty lax. Especially compared to back then when things felt very malicious and "Them vs Us"
That's kinda what I was thinking. There's a few threads from around then when the forum was very divisive into two parts and just continually go at length trying to solve the issues but never actually doing so. I'm trying to brush up on my TLS history of all that I've missed and some of the threads I have bookmarked I still haven't made it through cause it just goes on forever.

I definitely don't think we have that same issue now, if that's what's being inferred. We're definitely a warm snuggly bunch and I think that shows in the skype groups, the shout box, the "say something nice" thread and the awards we just had. And the newbs who have joined since the remake announcement have been so friendly and got along great with everybody that I don't think we even think of them as newbs.
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So, why do you come here?
Same as you, I think. I've been here a lot...
You must have a lot going on your mind, I suppose.
Yeah, but I'd rather have nothing for a change. How do you do it?
Well, it comes with practice. I can think of nothing.
I do not feel the need to occupy my mind with nonsense, just to avoid thinking about what really matters.

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Old 04/17/2016   #162
Flintlock
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I kinda wish I'd been around more in the last couple of days to follow this thread more closely, because looking through it now, I'm pretty disappointed in the way it's unfolded.

I'm going to leave my personal opinions aside for now, however, and ask another technical question: what are the parameters of our blind debate section trial? When you're conducting an experiment, you need to know what you're looking for, or in other words, you need to be clear about what the point of the experiment is. What are we looking for? How will we determine if the trial has been successful or not?
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Old 04/17/2016   #163
Starling
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X-SOLDIER wrote:
Starling wrote: Didn't I just provide an example of that? The problem attributed to the thanks system is the feeling of being ganged up on or like no one is supporting your opinion. A lack of verbal support won't really be fixed purely from removing thanks from the equation. That kind of thing occurs in heated debates, which involves additional factors not being considered. They're still tied to debates, which is what prompted the thanks talk to begin with. Because of that, I wouldn't say it's an entirely separate issue. The whole point of bringing this up was that the thanks system might not be the real problem to begin with. If we don't talk about other debate problems and how they relate to each other, how would we know? Right now it's largely assumed the thanks system is the problem without really bothering to check if there's a deeper problem to deal with and it'll continue to be ignored if you dismiss it as a separate issue instead of actually talking about it.

That doesn't quite encompass the issue I brought up. Not everyone has to fully agree on something but they may not agree point for point with either "side" of the opposing opinions discussed. There would be some in the middle. Just having those people in the middle can make a difference and make debates less polarized. Likewise, things like someone speaking up when they see what someone is saying get dismissed without really being addressed can make a difference too.

The way I see it, the debate issues all come into play when things start to get heated. Thus, you need to ask why things get heated. It seems that debates get heated when people feel aggravated. Why do they feel aggravated? For a number of reasons that include things like the argument going nowhere, feeling like they aren't being listened to, feeling talked down to or otherwise disrespected, etc. Wouldn't that make them feel the same way as what people have been attributing to the thanks system? So then how would dealing with the thanks system actually solve that? We need to look at the bigger picture.
The issue that we have been seeing (and are testing with the Blind Debate forum) is largely what was being seen in the Presidential Debate thread: i.e. most all of us here're fairly liberal, so the more conservative viewpoints are visually less supported by the Thanks system, and it's a little more tough for those users to keep making them and feel that they have the same level of validation in their opinions. There IS a reason to support that more neutral mindset in the trial that we're doing with the removal of the Thanks system for it and various other debate threads as a test run.
I'm fine with testing out the no thanks thing to see if it makes debates more objective. We'll have to wait and see how that goes to confirm what kind of difference it makes. I just want to make sure other problems don't get overlooked because of that.

Additionally, we're not ignoring the other potential issues that have been raised of people's misconduct in heated debates. That's... literally the whole job of the Moderation Staff, and we're still doing it. If something's getting out-of-hand there's a whole system that's already in place of taking care of that. No one's even remotely suggesting that what's being done with the Blind Debate section is a magical fix-all for having wonderful debates that will be perfect and fair and never become heated.
I'm aware some of that stuff would fall under moderation. It's kinda inevitable when dealing with debate issues. The thing is, going over problems, their root causes and potential solutions can indicate whether or not anything needs to change, whether in moderation, subforums or whatever is being dealt with. Isn't it pertinent to moderation to assess problems of any kind present on the forums? Don't you regularly go over everything to make sure the system is doing a good enough job? Isn't this the kind of reasoning that prompted Ghost to make this thread?

These are completely different things, and I've re-stated a few times that we're waiting on more information for what the "other issues" are by the folks that are experiencing them. Again - without specific examples, we can't do anything meaningful to fix them. Lastly, people who're of the mindset that they just dislike the Thanks system in general also have an option for just disabling it, so that it's not there for them for all intents and purposes.
No, it's not completely unrelated. We may still be waiting on more input elaborating on the problems people have with the thanks system but we also have input about why some people stay out of the debate threads that doesn't have anything to do with the thanks system.

The people who've spoken up about either of those things so far say things about how debates can feel like your opinion isn't acknowledged or that everyone else is agreeing with the opposing argument, or that things get too heated and possibly disrespectful. Why do we have to wait for elaboration on the thanks issue to discuss whether or not what's been said so far indicates a problem that's either unrelated to the thanks system despite being associated with it or that goes beyond it and would require a different solution? More feedback on that front is as simple as asking people if they've had any problems with debates and then whether or not they associate those problems to the thanks system.

I and a few other members expressed feeling that there's a deeper issue that goes beyond the whole thanks thing. I pointed out that having a broader discussion about the issues seen in debates to figure out whether or not the thanks system is really the problem and how to better deal with it was important before we started taking action on the thanks thing. No one really responded to that. I asked whether or not we'll broach the subject in order to figure out if messing with the thanks is even necessary, then later elaborate on why I think it's important to do that and still no one replied to what I said. It wasn't until the subforum was made and Dawn expressed disappointment that no one else was looking into the deeper issues that the topic was finally responded to.

tl;dr - This thread has fractured into 3 different things:

• People who dislike the Thanks system entirely:
- These folks are the vast minority, and have the option of removing the Thanks system for just themselves.
• Debates that could use a more flatly objective interaction:
- This is what the trial of the Blind Debate section is for
• Clique-y or other ganging-up-type behaviour:
- This's what we're still waiting on more information for before suggesting potential ways to alleviate the issues being felt by whomever is feeling them.
I'd say that summation oversimplifies the range of opinions somewhat. It also leaves out the opinion that the thanks system either isn't the problem or not the root cause of it. There were people who wanted a solution to be found without removing thanks, others who wondered if the problem associated with thanks was a matter of perception, etc. Then there's how the thread was originally made to discuss opinions on the matter rather than actually go ahead and do something only 2 days in. There wasn't any need to rush for a solution so quickly, especially when the topic of whether or not the thanks system was the real problem hadn't been dealt with.
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Old 04/17/2016   #164
The Twilight Mexican
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Not to sound dismissive, Starling, but the only things you brought up in this post that obviously relate to sentiments people have expressed in relation to the Thanks system are feeling ignored or feeling like everyone is agreeing with the opposing argument.

There's not much that can (or should) be done about the first, since we don't and should not have rules about replying to posts that you don't want to reply to, and about the same can be said for the other matter. At one point or another, everyone is likely to find themselves the sole champion of an opinion or feeling. I certainly have. It's just an inevitability of life, not an injustice.

Like I said previously, I'm sympathetic to feeling outnumbered, unappreciated and exhausted (I've certainly been there as well), but that doesn't mean there needs to be rules in place to prevent it when engaging in debates that ultimately are entirely voluntary.
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Old 04/17/2016   #165
Clement Rage
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That's fair, but is there any actual downside to making people feel slightly more comfortable with their replies than they might otherwise be, with the cost being at worst an extremely minor inconvenience in one part of a gaming forum?
Clement Rage is offline   Reply With Quote
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