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Pre-Crisis Final Fantasy VII All content for Before Crisis and Crisis Core focusing on the 8 years, leading directly up until the events of Final Fantasy VII.

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Old 07/10/2017   #76
Mr. Ite
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Tashasaurous wrote: Am I the only one who likes some villians in anything to have a chance to redeem themselves once they realise their wrong doings?
No, you're not alone! I love a good redemption arc, and I think most people do. A very important part of a redemption arc is the initial wrongdoing (or series of wrongdoings) and from what I gather BC shied away or else failed to effectively execute that facet of the Turks?

The FF7 OG didn't really focus enough on the Turks to give them an explicit "redemption arc" but imo it felt like it. I mean, HOO-WEE, were they rotten at the beginning - the Pillar and the slap come to mind. But by the end of the game, I was hoping they'd be okay. It wasn't that they changed really, I just came to understand them a bit more. Contrasted with that "initial wrongdoing" that I mentioned - which FF7 executed very well - and it feels like just as big a change as a heel-face-turn.
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Old 07/10/2017   #77
Tashasaurous
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Mr. Ite wrote:
Tashasaurous wrote: Am I the only one who likes some villians in anything to have a chance to redeem themselves once they realise their wrong doings?
No, you're not alone! I love a good redemption arc, and I think most people do. A very important part of a redemption arc is the initial wrongdoing (or series of wrongdoings) and from what I gather BC shied away or else failed to effectively execute that facet of the Turks?
So do I! Thank you for that!

Mr. Ite wrote: The FF7 OG didn't really focus enough on the Turks to give them an explicit "redemption arc" but imo it felt like it. I mean, HOO-WEE, were they rotten at the beginning - the Pillar and the slap come to mind. But by the end of the game, I was hoping they'd be okay. It wasn't that they changed really, I just came to understand them a bit more. Contrasted with that "initial wrongdoing" that I mentioned - which FF7 executed very well - and it feels like just as big a change as a heel-face-turn.
Yeah, and when you really think about it, Turks being bad in the beginning of the game was really just for show to hide how they were really feeling in their hearts, especially since Reno and Rude went out of their way to aid Cloud and his group to rescue both Yuffie and Elena, and how Tseng made no orders to attack them at the Mines either.

Before Crisis, Advent Children and Crisis Core made me understand them even more as well as understand more of both the background of the main characters and the future of everyone as well, which is two of the main reasons why I love the Compilation as I love the OG.
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Old 07/12/2017   #78
Clement Rage
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Heheh, this thread, huh? Wow, that's a flash from the past.

I realise I'm an outlier on this, but everything the games tried to do to make me sympathise with the Turks made them look worse to me.

I respected them well enough my first playthrough, but I entirely missed the Wutai subquest. Then I found it, and for me, the scenes that were meant to be sympathetic just made them look significantly more evil than they were.

And the rest of the Compilation continued this trend. BC establishes that when they don't like an order, they're totally able and willing to wriggle out of it whenever they want, so any time they do something evil, that's because they didn't care enough to wriggle out of it.

Re Redemption, I don't really see it. I don't think we've seen them show remorse, regret, or sacrifice anything (they're willing to sacrifice things that belong to other people, but nothing of their own). I don't see anything to indicate that they are working towards redemption or have suffered to work towards it, and post Meteorfall, they pretty much ended up exactly where they wanted to be. They lost nothing, which is almost unique when compared to any other character. I haven't seen anything to indicate that they even want redemption or feel all that guilty, or have put in any work towards atonement.

If you compare to, say, Beatrix, who expresses doubts while under Brahne, and when she turns, acknowledges that it's too late for forgiveness, but tries to atone in what she thinks is a last stand to buy Garnet time to escape. She ends up running Alexandria because there's no one else, and then at the end of the game tries to retire when they don't need her anymore.

I haven't seen the Turks act like they're trying to atone, post Meteorfall, they're still acting for their own interests.
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Old 07/12/2017   #79
The Twilight Mexican
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I could find more than one example if I wanted to look for it, but this dialogue from AC Complete should be sufficient to demonstrate that your premise is incorrect:

----
Reno: Who’d a thunk? A lot of Shinra’s people actually returned to work! Now that’s dedication. I’m tellin’ ya, this could be a fresh start!

Rude: Well, those left alive have a lot to atone for.

Reno: Two years already. Seems a lot longer than that. What a nightmare, huh? The world was nearly obliterated, and we were the obliterators. Seriously, though – how are we ever supposed to atone for that?
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Old 07/13/2017   #80
Cat Rage Room
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Note: It's been a long time since I've originally played FFVII (when I was like, 12) and it's been a long time since I've posted in this thread. I can admit to the fact that FFVII's writing doesn't exactly have very much depth, even compared to later titles and especially compared to say, something like Dragon Age or Deus Ex. With that being said it's still a very enjoyable game and and narrative, just don't you know, look too much into it.

With that being said, I think people try to push the Turks too hard into 'good guy/bad guy/VERY GRAY LOOK HOW GRAY I AM' roles like Japanese media is pretty good at doing.

Looking at the Turks now, I don't really think they're too much of anything in terms of the good/evil spectrum. They're talented, but ultimately regular minded people with an extremely amoral job (that I also agree that BC failed to really illustrate) that has them to some pretty fucked up shit for a paycheck. Then the end of the world comes (that they sort of...helped indirectly), and being human, as in, not total monsters, Reno and Rude have a change in perspective and they feel pretty bad about it.

They're not made of the same heroic fiber that AVALANCHE is, nor are they out and out evil villains like Pres. Shinra or Sephiroth, either. The original FFVII did the best job at portraying this, and ultimately the Compilation really muddied the waters on their characterization a bunch. Again, BC didn't help for a lot of reasons, one reason being is that they were punching too far above their weight class via fighting super powered summons and WEAPONS and such, and two, they made AVALANCHE way morally worse than the Turks, which was already pointed out.

I feel that the Compilation really confused the Turks and pretty much the reason why we're having this conversation. The original game really got them right the first time.
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Old 07/13/2017   #81
LicoriceAllsorts
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Agreed.

@ Tres, fwiw, I think Clem was referring to BC only and not any further character development the Turks might have received elsewhere in the Compilation. In BC, their mantra always is: "I signed up for Shinra, so now I have to see it through no matter what...." which does seem like the motto of people whose defense is, "I was only following orders." BC is not an awful game, but it was a wasted opportunity.
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Old 07/13/2017   #82
Clement Rage
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How about 'Together we can rebuild Shinra'. They don't seem very reformed to me, what with the whole 'siccing superpowered killers on Cloud while explaining nothing to him.' Even in Case of Shinra, Elena's hanging round out of personal loyalty to Tseng, Rude just can't imagine being anything else, and Reno has something ambiguous that may or may not be regret.

They're the only characters that get their redemption for free.

Part of this is a reaction to the fandom, which sometimes works really really hard to show that they don't have a choice but to do the things they do, while in the canon they never follow orders they don't like. I mean, I actually can't think of an example where they fully followed through on something they didn't want to do without rebelling at least somewhat.

The original FFVII did the best job at portraying this,
I agree... except for the Wutai quest.
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Old 07/13/2017   #83
Octo
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Yep it was a load of bollocks, and fandom was largely to blame. In the OG there is hardly any screen time or interaction between Rufus and the Turks but y'know, fandom wants them all to be together because they are good looking.

So we have all this sycophantic crap devised about owing Rufus, and the Turks get flanderised. I preferred it when they were a law unto themselves, and I never wanted them to be the goody good guys.

And rebuilding Shinra is also a pile of wank. You don't get to behave as Shinra did and then atone and still get to keep your business. Can you imagine such a thing happening in real life? No in real life they'd get strung up with piano wire.

But I said all this shit before
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Old 07/13/2017   #84
Cat Rage Room
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I agree... except for the Wutai quest.
If anything that gives them depth and consistency. It was established pretty early that the Turks have no real personal beef with AVALANCHE.

And rebuilding Shinra is also a pile of wank. You don't get to behave as Shinra did and then atone and still get to keep your business. Can you imagine such a thing happening in real life?
Yes you do and yes I can imagine it, because it happens all the time even in real life with real world empires (antagonistic or no) What would happen if various empires throughout history (including the USA), even the aggressive ones,, or not, just disappeared overnight?

Keep in mind I'm not defending Shinra. But at the same time, Shinra almost singlehandedly propelled the world of FFVII into the modern age, and propped up the entire planet's economy, infrastructure, culture, and collective defense for a generation. The world is in a precarious yet realistic position of being better off without Shinra in the long run but absolutely depending on it to function smoothly.

They can eventually rebuild without it, but I don't blame certain people for wanting certain elements of Shinra (namely, civilization) to return without the evil corporation shit attached with it.

Last edited by Cat Rage Room; 07/13/2017 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 07/13/2017   #85
Octo
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Well I'm thinking of Shinra as a company not an empire, although granted the lines are blurred. What is to stop people rising up and forcibly taking control of the infrastucture without the people responsible getting to sit on top and continue enjoying their cushy lifestyles? Everyone is meant to just suck that up because there is meant to be something unique about Rufus Shinra that he has to be in charge like some god mode Mary Sue?

Edit: And Mussolini, Gadaffi etc, these fuckers get what is coming to them and arguably those guys did less than Shinra ie. they didn't actually jeopardise the entire planet.

My main issue is with the storytelling and what I believe motivates it, they wanted to maintain Shinra as an entity because they believe that is what the fans wanted, so they have to do some weird mental gymnastics where they get to 'atone' and still have Rufus swanning about like little lord Fauntleroy
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Old 07/13/2017   #86
Cat Rage Room
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What is to stop people rising up and forcibly taking control of the infrastucture without the people responsible getting to sit on top and continue enjoying their cushy lifestyles? Everyone is meant to just suck that up because there is meant to be something unique about Rufus Shinra that he has to be in charge like some god mode Mary Sue?
Having Shinra back doesn't mean Rufus Shinra sitting on his ivory tower, eating grapes, though. It doesn't have to mean Rufus coming back to run the company at all. I do think Rufus is a capable and competent enough leader to truly reform (at least, enough) to get the world moving in a better direction, but either way, certain elements of Shinra reforming doesn't have to mean things being exactly as they were.

But Shinra DID prop up almost the entirety of Gaia. I think it's important to separate the idealistic from the pragmatic.

Edit: And Mussolini, Gadaffi etc, these fuckers get what is coming to them and arguably those guys did less than Shinra ie. they didn't actually jeopardise the entire planet.
Saddam Hussien absolutely got what was coming to him, and after he died, in a lot of ways shit got a lot worse for the people under him (and the region as a whole) as a direct result of his death. Shit's complicated like that, and I think a lot of times we forget that, even in our stories.

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Old 07/13/2017   #87
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The infrastructure is there, the people -even people who already are employed by Shinra - could say right well this is ours now. I would think after experiencing near total destruction people would have reached the limit of what they are willing to put up with and grow a backbone.

I talk about Rufus and the Turks because that is what was being brought up, some sort of atonement on their parts, but I don't think its true atonement if they get to keep their positions, cos it wasn't like some mistake like an industrial accident, it was greed and they made life shitty for people long before that.

I just dont think it makes for a good story is all, and it all boils down to them not having the balls to keep a popular character - Rufus- dead like he was supposed to be
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Old 07/13/2017   #88
Cat Rage Room
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The infrastructure is there, the people -even people who already are employed by Shinra - could say right well this is ours now.
They could! And it looks like they are; organizations like the WRO are sort of proof of that. But look at it this way; is there any real functional difference between the WRO and a hypothetical 'Not Evil Shinra'? I'd say not much. Shinra brought organization, economy, structure, and culture. Any sort of cohesive organization that brings those things that disappears overnight either 1. Comes up again in a different form or a different name (basically what happened in FFVII) 2. Everyone lives in abject misery until they get their shit together

I understand what you're saying, but it's very idealistic and not really rooted in...anything throughout human history.

I would think after experiencing near total destruction people would have reached the limit of what they are willing to put up with and grow a backbone.
Shinra returning does not mean taking shit.

I talk about Rufus and the Turks because that is what was being brought up, some sort of atonement on their parts, but I don't think its true atonement if they get to keep their positions, cos it wasn't like some mistake like an industrial accident, it was greed and they made life shitty for people long before that.
How do you know their intentions?

I just dont think it makes for a good story is all, and it all boils down to them not having the balls to keep a popular character - Rufus- dead like he was supposed to be
I perhaps can agree with that.
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Old 07/13/2017   #89
Octo
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I understand what you're saying, but it's very idealistic and not really rooted in...anything throughout human history.
Fair enough, although dictators have been strung up for less. Sure things go to shit, things have gone to shit. I just think it makes a crappy story. Like if in Star Wars they blow up the Death Star and then Darth Vader and the Emperor come back and are like nooo we're reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllly sorry guise! That aint a satisfactory conclusion to me.

How do you know their intentions?
I know Rufus was quite happy to rule through fear prior to meterorfall. So the way I see it, he has had an 'oh shit' moment because the entire planet nearly got destroyed but he still wants to cling to power, otherwise all that weird manipulative shit he does in AC makes little sense- if he genuinely wanted to help and had pure motives. Had meteorfall not happened would he have had some revelation about not being a piece of shit? I doubt it.
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Old 07/14/2017   #90
Cat Rage Room
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Fair enough, although dictators have been strung up for less. Sure things go to shit, things have gone to shit. I just think it makes a crappy story. Like if in Star Wars they blow up the Death Star and then Darth Vader and the Emperor come back and are like nooo we're reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllly sorry guise! That aint a satisfactory conclusion to me.
There's degrees to this, though, Octo. While I wouldn't buy the Emperor seeking forgiveness (he really was pure evil), Darth Vader did seek absolvement for his crimes and to a degree he did redeem himself. But if he did survive, it would be perfectly realistic for him to slowly seek and (possibly, indeed not everyone gets it) find true remorse and redemption. I think you're looking at good/evil as a stark binary, and I don't think it's the right way to go.

With that being said, I'm glad that you brought up Star Wars before I did; there's a lot of EU stories about all of the chaos and collapse that resulted from the Empire's defeat.

I know Rufus was quite happy to rule through fear prior to meterorfall. So the way I see it, he has had an 'oh shit' moment because the entire planet nearly got destroyed but he still wants to cling to power, otherwise all that weird manipulative shit he does in AC makes little sense- if he genuinely wanted to help and had pure motives. Had meteorfall not happened would he have had some revelation about not being a piece of shit? I doubt it.
You can absolutely be ambitious and not be an evil villain, and want to help, or at least just be amoral and make your money without wanting to actively screw people over. If anything, some expressions of altruism require power. The idea that ambition and power are intrinsically 'evil' feelings is bullshit (I'm very ambitious, especially in real life, but I don't think I'm evil. Am I evil guys?), and while Rufus has a precedent and a track history to haunt and for people to rightly judge him for it, one could feel remorseful for how shit went down from your actions and still be ambitious.

For example, in the military, I was very ambitious and I wanted power, and I got promoted enough times into being a non commissioned officer to get it. Was it because I was evil or I wanted to lord over people? No. I just knew that in the infrastructure and organization I was in, being lower ranked and powerless not only personally sucked, but I couldn't effect any positive change (for myself or others) from being the equivalent of a Private. For me to be able to make things better for myself or anyone else, power and ambition was required. Now, as a civilian in the business world, that still rings true.
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