SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

I did get to see this tweet as I tried to look up the excerpt:

It reminds me of when I'm looking for a passage from Ultimanias and I come across photos on tumblr with someone who has translated the passages that speak of Aerith as the love of his life... and then when you translate the Japanese text directly, which is still visible on the photo... it says something totally different lmao.

I think you know what the tumblr topic was about

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Apropos of nothing, I wanted to report a fun bit of LTD-discourse shared by some pretty well-known journalists in the games industry.

The podcast Triple Click is hosted by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers and Kirk Hamilton. I believe they all worked together at Kotaku once upon a time. Jason writes for Bloomberg now and has published two books about games development that some of you might be familiar with. Maddy Myers is an editor at Polygon and Kirk focuses on his music and music podcast (Strong Songs) these days.

Triple Click has been going for a few years now within the Maximum Fun Co-Op. If you want to listen to the podcast you should be able to find it on most of your standard podcast platforms (Spotify; the Apple Podcasts app). I believe its roots lie in an earlier podcast the trio did at Kotaku. I listen to Triple Click every now and then, mainly when they cover a game I’m interested in. They were very positive on Remake back in 2020, but they were quite lukewarm on XVI when it released last year. They’ve been quite positive on Rebirth too - so much so that they’ve done 3 podcast episodes on it. The first two are free to the public and the final, spoiler one is behind the Maximum Fun paywall.

“Dr Crane - what on earth does this have to do with the LTD?” I hear you ask

I’m getting to the point. I promise.

So Jason, Maddy and Kirk are all pretty accomplished, down-to-earth people that I would not have previously described as “afflicted with LTD brainrot”. Nevertheless, they are nerdier than your average person (they have all written about video games for a living - and that’s not a bad thing!) and I believe they are of the precise age cohort that would have been besotted with FFVII when it first came out in 1997. Jason in fact is really into JRPGs - so much so that for multiple years he has strong-armed Maddy and Kirk into playing a few JRPG classics that neither had previously touched (FFVI; Suikoden 2).

So imagine my surprise when the LTD suddenly emerged as a topic of discussion during episode 2 of Triple Click’s Rebirth coverage! Not only did they discuss it, but both Maddy and Kirk got quite passionate about it! Usually journalists dance around the LTD and their preference for one side or the other, but here in the parameters of an easy-listening podcast we suddenly had fiery, but good-spirited debate.

Now I’m going to paraphrase and misremember bits from episode 2 but this was the gist of it:

• Kirk prefers Cloud and Tifa and relates it to his real-life experience of having loved and married a girl from his hometown
• Maddy prefers Aerith and Cloud and reflects that she is married to a woman that is more akin to Aerith in personality
• Hilariously, even though Jason is the big JRPG guy, he couldn’t remember who he took on the date (although I believe he later clarified he was talking about the first date in Chapter 8)
• At the time of episode 2, Kirk believed the game leaned in favour of Cloti while Maddy believed the game leaned in favour of Clerith

Now, here’s where things get interesting. I finally got around to listening to their final, spoilers episode where they discuss the ending and their thoughts of the game. Once again, it’s behind a paywall, but I will summarise the LTD points:

• Kirk got Barret as the final date but wanted to get Tifa; nevertheless he thought Barret was encouraging Cloud to confess specifically to Tifa during their talk
• Maddy and Jason both got Aerith as the final date - however, Maddy had come around since episode 2 and was now agreeing with Kirk’s perspective that the game appeared to favour Cloud and Tifa as a couple
• Maddy agreed that Barret was likely talking about Tifa, and agreed with Kirk that the game had distinguished Cloud and Tifa as a romantic pair by giving them a kiss during their date (if high affection is achieved, of course)
• Jason humorously continued to be fairly un-fussed about the topic of romance and the LTD, but did add that he was unsurprised about the kiss between Cloud and Tifa as he believed the original game was very un-subtle about the two having sex

I had wanted to post previously about the curiosity of having listened to Triple Click’s second Rebirth episode and hearing LTD discussion suddenly derail Triple Click’s typical harmony. But now having listened to their final spoiler episode, I couldn’t resist any longer.

So here are my key takeaways:

1. I think many people who are into Final Fantasy VII have a strong opinion about the love triangle, whether they want to admit it or not
2. I think many, more flexible observers, can admit that the Remake trilogy is being more clear and specific about who loves who in this story
3. As has been discussed in the past, observers of the love triangle debate often bring their own preferences and beliefs about love and relationships and this informs which side of the triangle they prefer

It was a lot of fun to hear more casual observers of the LTD share their thoughts on it, as while there’s certainly plenty of streamers sharing their views on this topic these days, I hadn’t heard the LTD discussed on what is a pretty premium podcast format before. If anyone else has heard the LTD pop up on other podcasts or discussions, I’d love to hear about it!

 

[nars305]

Are we talking about the Marlene begging Cloud to come home ? You know the place where she lives with Denzel AND Tifa. But yeah she must ships Clerith, a woman she saw once and who died short after.

"By the way, Marlene is a mini Tifa. She grew up with her and learned a lot from her. And she'll always remember that Aerith saved her. So yes, she's sort of a representation of both." a dude named Nomura.

I wonder how much he knows about Final Fantasy VII.

I just had to say the Cloud shrugging image is my favorite thing ever LOL. Whenever I watched OG play through bits and saw it, it always made me chuckle.



Obviously I’ve stolen it YOINK

 

[Eerie]

Yeah I know a lot of "neutrals" deny it, but FFVII has a pretty strong romance streak and it's bound to affect how we, as players, view it. The narrative is strongly attached to it, Cloud being in love with Tifa being the core of his character and his actions - it affects the whole story. With Rebirth it's even more pronounced, with Sephiroth trying to break their bond.

But all in all this is also why the LTD has been going on for so long - at the end of the day, it shows your thoughts about the game and how much you're able to take from it. What's the reality, what's the truth indeed? Many players get blinded, it's very hard to see through as long as you haven't played at least once until you get to the twist of the story. And many players don't want to let go of the fantasy that was sold to them in the first disc, may they be shippers or not. Only in FFVII a man and a woman who love each other, have realised their feelings in a super intimate setting, have confirmed them without words, have rebuilt a bar, live together with two kids in a new found family, share finances, are being described in terms of marriage by the writer himself... are considered as friends and not lovers.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I find the topic of non LTD people weighing in interesting because in real life I have friends with many different perspectives:

My husband is prefers Tifa and sees Cloti as obvious. He never played OG until I made him before Remake lol. But he didn't like it and stopped at Midgar. He likes Remake and Rebirth. Was annoyed by Aerith at first but now likes her now. He was annoyed by Jessie and still is eh towards her.
He still prefers Tifa and sees her as endgame.
He doesn't care about LTD and thinks it's weird but supports my passion lol.

Then all my friends who have played FF7 also love Aerith. I don't think any of them don't like any girl. They like them all. Several of them even prefer Aerith for romance too. None hate Tifa.

One of them is a Clerith and only accepts Clerith canon.

The rest don't care at all about LTD. They don't know what the heck I'm talking about in terms of canon or not or Ultimanias lol. Some are going for the Tifa date. Some are going for the Aerith date. It doesn't go deeper than that for most of them and some think Cloud has feelings for both, some just to Aerith and some just to Tifa. It's very mixed. They also all like Zack for the most part..

One of my closest friends is a Zerith main lol. She likes Tifa and accepts Cloti as canon but is there for Zerith.

My brother loves Aerith, Tifa and Jessie and prefers Jessie for him, as in she is his type. But he calls Cloud and Tifa "super obvious". He however thinks Cloud made the Lifestream shenanigans because of his guilt for Aerith's death. He accepts Zerith canon but also doesn't care about LTD and thinks I'm "crazy for being involved in internet fights".

Yep lol.

It's funny how to true it is that even non LTDers have their opinions.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think I tend to agree, I think all players have a pretty strong stance about the LTD but a lot of them either don't want to admit or just don't want to put it out there because they don't want to argue with people.

Even those that say "it's optional" or "it's a very minor part" probably do still lean quite heavily in one direction. Whether they are leaning in that direction because preference or because there is evidence of canonicity matters little.

I think this is why a lot of them try to avoid the LTD. Because it consists of either grasping at straws in order to change the other side's mind or talking to a wall that will never change their mind out of sheer stubbornness, regardless of evidence.

 

[nars305]

Only in FFVII a man and a woman who love each other, have realised their feelings in a super intimate setting, have confirmed them without words, have rebuilt a bar, live together with two kids in a new found family, share finances, are being described in terms of marriage by the writer himself... are considered as friends and not lovers.

I really don’t understand it. I really don’t.

Tifa and Cloud are made to kiss, means nothing…

Aerith herself realizes she can’t say she likes Cloud, means nothing…

Cloud reciprocates nothing when she expresses her feelings, means nothing…

I don’t understand it.

I already know if UTH happens to full intensity, it will also mean nothing. It is just for us horny westerners.

 

[Yoru]

I already know if UTH happens to full intensity, it will also mean nothing. It is just for us horny westerners.

Well, I'll take it.

 

[nepheneethedestroyer]

It's funny how to true it is that even non LTDers have their opinions.

Well, like others have said, it is kind of a core part of the story, when it comes down to it.

One of my closest friends is a Zerith main lol. She likes Tifa and accepts Cloti as canon but is there for Zerith.

I think it's crazy to play Crisis Core and not be a Zerith person at least. It's weird, I'm not that interested in fanon content for Zerith, but I was sobbing at the end of CC lol. If I ever think about that last letter I'll start tearing up on the spot. I will be bawling when they reunite in Part 3. On the other hand I am pretty into the fics and art for Cloti and all that.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well, like others have said, it is kind of a core part of the story, when it comes down to it.


I think it's crazy to play Crisis Core and not be a Zerith person at least. It's weird, I'm not that interested in fanon content for Zerith, but I was sobbing at the end of CC lol. If I ever think about that last letter I'll start tearing up on the spot. I will be bawling when they reunite in Part 3. On the other hand I am pretty into the fics and art for Cloti and all that.

Yeah this friend got into FF7 through Crisis Core and loves Crisis Core while the others did through OG. I also got in through OG.
So that's probably why. I like Zerith and it was the ending that got me too lol.

 

[Sacky]

For anyone saying they don't care about FF7 romance they are always lying because the people that say this always seem to have a pretty detailed opinion XD. i don't know why people cant admit they care about romance in the game or even worse say romance isnt part of the plot at all the fact there was a love triangle debate in the orignal and the whole lifestream sequence. In Rebirth the whole gongaga scene i think you got to have a very poor understanding to not get that love is absolutely in the plot it just isnt in your face until part 3. But overall anyone who says i don't care who Cloud loves always seems to be able to talk in length why they think the game is being obvious about one person or the other...

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

For anyone saying they don't care about FF7 romance they are always lying because the people that say this always seem to have a pretty detailed opinion XD. i don't know why people cant admit they care about romance in the game or even worse say romance isnt part of the plot at all the fact there was a love triangle debate in the orignal and the whole lifestream sequence. In Rebirth the whole gongaga scene i think you got to have a very poor understanding to not get that love is absolutely in the plot it just isnt in your face until part 3. But overall anyone who says i don't care who Cloud loves always seems to be able to talk in length why they think the game is being obvious about one person or the other...

Well my friends that don't care really don't have a detailed opinion. They like one girl or the other but I don't think they care which is canon. And if you ask them they find the topic either silly or boring and wouldn't talk at length honestly.
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I just asked my husband and here is what I got:

He thinks it is ridiculous that there's any debates because the game to him is more about "ecoterrorism to save the Planet and fighting a villain than romance," and he says Tifa is obvious anyway as the childhood friend ending up with the hero as the romance story part.
But on the subject of romance in the plot he still doesn't see romance as the most important topic or even the driving force of the story overall, his words.

He didn't talk in too much detail beyond that other than:

what he likes about Tifa as a character and thinks she's good with Cloud. He also thinks Aerith and Zack are "made for eachother" and Aerith is dead anyway so there is no real reason to ship her with Cloud so why even debate that, his words. He plain doesn't see her as an option. He goes with what is there and what is canon, his words.

Then he got bored and we talked about an anime he really likes when I asked him what he thought about shipping in general.

And that's the longest I ever got him to entertain this topic like five minutes? lol. And he is way more interested in my thoughts on the anime he does like than LTD
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Edit: because according to him talking about the LTD stuff with the two girls is "too messy" and with too much will they won't they back and forth in terms of the romance. Both girls having feelings with Aerith liking Cloud but also cheering on CT and liking Zack reminds him of drama in shows he used to watch. He doesn't like that, he likes things more clear and straightforward. His words. End conversation.
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I tried lol. He is just not impressed with this topic.

So that's that on that.

I do think there really are people that genuinely don't care but as in they aren't interested or invested in the topic. Like my husband here. I had to ask multiple questions to get these answers.

That's what I mean about "don't care". They just aren't as "into it" I guess.

Edit: I went back and asked him to clarify because his first response was so brief.

 

[nars305]

For anyone saying they don't care about FF7 romance they are always lying because the people that say this always seem to have a pretty detailed opinion XD.

I have seen this to be true lmao.

I mean a pretty significant part in the game revolves around romance. Cloud is mentally broken the entire game, the part where his mind is fixed is heavily attached to…his feelings for Tifa.

*It’s fine not to care about the aspect of romance in the game. But when your main character has an identity crisis and the answer of how and why is closely related to a girl….I mean…

 

[Ryushikaze]

Perfection.

Usually I only hear that from my wife.

Lots of monotone "This doesn't sound normal" followed by "It is around here"

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more "Shelke's normal person lessons" is the perfect framing device for this. "I don't know what normal is, but I'm sure you people are not it."

Some of the wackiest.

As nature intended.

Myrna can't be the only woman in all of history who can handle all that Barret. There's bound to be some strong independent lady working the oilfields.

Maybe someone working on a different energy source, so there's a little bit of friction in there initially.

Every accusation is a confession. I swear I sometimes forget if I'm talking LTD or politics, and that is sad.

You'd think for people who view Aerith as goodness personified would try and act in her example, but as with real world religions, it just does not work that way.

At the worst of times, every post some Cleriths made was like this. Like, six contradictory "facts" per post bad.

I remember way back when Anastar came and "fought her dial-up connection" to post here and she literally contradicted herself not just factually, but argumentatively in like every post. She held two contradictory positions because she thought they helped her arguments, but did not realize how they conflicted.

So I got delayed from posting for a while by real life stuff. I see there were lots of good thoughts I'd love to respond to... but I'd already quoted this one.

As always, take your time.

I was confused by this part too. I mean Barret is there in Edge since the battle just ended. But Cloud’s response confused me, and they didn’t mention the character like looking at Barret or mention him.

I did get to see this tweet as I tried to look up the excerpt:

“because marlene never calls cloud daddy. the devs never say cloud is her daddy. you just hate barret and use HIS daughter as a pawn in your cIoti delusions. get over it. marlene ships clerith AND she doesnt and never will view cloud as her "dad".”

I do believe it's Marlene referring to Barret, but Cloud is still including Marlene as part of his family.
I literally have a janky MSPaint venn diagram for this, but the short version is that Cloud and Tifa are not and will never be Marlene's mom and dad and they don't want to be, but they are parental figures for her. To Denzel, Cloud and Tifa ARE mom and dad now, and they do view him as their child.

- Nojima's way of writing ~ I mean how can people not think they're not a couple when Cloud when back to sleep with Tifa in the room, if she's just a 'friend' didnt he supposed to make sure she's out of the room before getting back to sleep?

I suppose these Cleriths are totally okay with their roommates hovering in their rooms at night while they're asleep.

He immediately woke up upon hearing Tifa's doubts and said "i just dont know how to approach her.." he didnt answer her when she directly ask 'same with you and I?" because we're seeing it on Tifa's POV and plus this is another symbolism that Cloud's driting away.

its difficult to see #cloti angst but in COT - Cloud's drifting away to Tifa is like drifting away to his true self again. ( metaphor) devs need to establish this because in lifestream black and white sephiroth is making it way to return. So Cloud closing his heart to everyone including Tifa is a dark turn.

- and even in this scenario if Aerith is indeed in Cloud's heart doesnt she have access to it right now? I mean it will be visible more.. because she's in Lifestream now and can communicate with him. ---> ANSWER: BECAUSE SHE CAN'T Cloud cannot see her or hear her unless Tifa talks to her in ACC "is it a memory or us?'

Tifa is again the only one who can access his heart even if he closed it to everyone else.

Cloud isn't drifting away so much as pulling inward because he's self punishing. He has a complex about how happy he is and feels he doesn't deserve it. The rest I think is accurate though.

She even opened an orphanage apparently!

What an amazing woman, running an orphanage, a bar, and working as a secretary for his business, all while raising children of her own

and most of all; as Cloud's longtime friend lmao.

I actually might start crying soon.

You've unlocked a very old memory friend. The rival orphanages. In the Pre-AC days the Cleriths were CONVINCED not only that Tifa ran an orphanage, but so did Cloud, and they were rivals... somehow.

I actually responded to a very similar argument on Youtube under a Cloud and Tifa in AC video. It was the same argument. In 2020. I still remember it. I told them their take made no sense because Cloud cherishes everything so of course he cared about Tifa. Went on for quite a few replies. There was one other person a anti Tifa in the same thread telling them not to listen to me and accusing me of being a Cloti and I told them no "I just think it's stupid to say Cloud hates Tifa, not even sees her as a friend but hates? Where did this even come from?"
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Afterwards I butted heads with that specific Tifa anti again in other YTthreads. They were just kind of everywhere. And then they hopped on twitter "to warn other CAs about me" as clearly I was a Cloti in disguise and not someone with a different view or anything. Anyway I saw it because duh, I'm a CA and I made the mistake of confronting them about lying about me and got chainblocked by like half the CAfandom at that time because they accused me of stalking their account. Fun times lol. People STILL think I'm a Cloti because of that user who I don't even think is in the fandom anymore but thanks a lot lol.
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Anyway in the end I found out the person who started the YouTube thread saying Cloud hates Tifa was literally a 12 year old kid and they were quoting from anti Tifa blogs. They apologized to me and I apologized for getting heated at a child who until that point I thought was just another Tifa anti. I remember they said they liked my blog which I had linked with Ultimania quotes. And they apparently liked CT now and were thanking me for informing them Cloud doesn't hate Tifa and their sources were bad. Or so that was their last comment to me.
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I really wonder if this is the same one you saw or if they both were just reading the same source? I just had deja vu reading your post tho bc those YouTube comments were what convinced people I was a CT in disguise or something. And it was just very similar takes.

It's also what started it all in terms of me talking about AC on my blog after that whole thing basically lol.

That could be Blankbeat's screeds. She is constantly quoting and reblogging them etc. to drive up circulation. She's not the only one, sure, but she's definitely very much in the "tear down C/T to fluff up C/A" camp.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I suppose these Cleriths are totally okay with their roommates hovering in their rooms at night while they're asleep.

- actually no they use this against Tifa sayin she's a creepy weirdo going into Cloud's room. Yeaaaahhh? why doesnt Cloud mind?? unless she's supposed to on that room as well? Lmao

 

[GamerSkull]

Prediction: Part 3's theme song will either relate to the Lifestream sequence or the UTH scene.

 

[Legend45]

What is the probability of the game starting with playable Tifa? I should specify not the opening of the game but the first person we control whenever we get to the first gameplay section?

 

[GamerSkull]

What is the probability of the game starting with playable Tifa? I should specify not the opening of the game but the first person we control whenever we get to the first gameplay section?

I doubt it. I think we'll control Cloud all the way up to the Northern Cave and then it will switch over to Tifa in Junon just like in the OG.

 

[Legend45]

I doubt it. I think we'll control Cloud all the way up to the Northern Cave and then it will switch over to Tifa in Junon just like in the OG.

I was thinking that too but showing others POV until Northern Creator would show Cloud's decent into madness at an even higher level compared to OG.

Just food for thought tho.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Apropos of nothing, I wanted to report a fun bit of LTD-discourse shared by some pretty well-known journalists in the games industry.

The podcast Triple Click is hosted by Jason Schreier, Mandy Myers and Kirk Hamilton. I believe they all worked together at Kotaku once upon a time. Jason writes for Bloomberg now and has published two books about games development that some of you might be familiar with. Mandy Myers is an editor at Polygon and Kirk focuses on his music and music podcast (Strong Songs) these days.

Triple Click has been going for a few years now within the Maximum Fun Co-Op. If you want to listen to the podcast you should be able to find it on most of your standard podcast platforms (Spotify; the Apple Podcasts app). I believe its roots lie in an earlier podcast the trio did at Kotaku. I listen to Triple Click every now and then, mainly when they cover a game I’m interested in. They were very positive on Remake back in 2020, but they were quite lukewarm on XVI when it released last year. They’ve been quite positive on Rebirth too - so much so that they’ve done 3 podcast episodes on it. The first two are free to the public and the final, spoiler one is behind the Maximum Fun paywall.

“Dr Crane - what on earth does this have to do with the LTD?” I hear you ask

I’m getting to the point. I promise.

So Jason, Mandy and Kirk are all pretty accomplished, down-to-earth people that I would not have previously described as “afflicted with LTD brainrot”. Nevertheless, they are nerdier than your average person (they have all written about video games for a living - and that’s not a bad thing!) and I believe they are of the precise age cohort that would have been besotted with FFVII when it first came out in 1997. Jason in fact is really into JRPGs - so much so that for multiple years he has strong-armed Maddy and Kirk into playing a few JRPG classics that neither had previously touched (FFVI; Suikoden 2).

So imagine my surprise when the LTD suddenly emerged as a topic of discussion during episode 2 of Triple Click’s Rebirth coverage! Not only did they discuss it, but both Maddy and Kirk got quite passionate about it! Usually journalists dance around the LTD and their preference for one side or the other, but here in the parameters of an easy-listening podcast we suddenly had fiery, but good-spirited debate.

Now I’m going to paraphrase and misremember bits from episode 2 but this was the gist of it:

• Kirk prefers Cloud and Tifa and relates it to his real-life experience of having loved and married a girl from his hometown
• Maddy prefers Aerith and Cloud and reflects that she is married to a woman that is more akin to Aerith in personality
• Hilariously, even though Jason is the big JRPG guy, he couldn’t remember who he took on the date (although I believe he later clarified he was talking about the first date in Chapter 8)
• At the time of episode 2, Kirk believed the game leaned in favour of Cloti while Maddy believed the game leaned in favour of Clerith

Now, here’s where things get interesting. I finally got around to listening to their final, spoilers episode where they discuss the ending and their thoughts of the game. Once again, it’s behind a paywall, but I will summarise the LTD points:

• Kirk got Barret as the final date but wanted to get Tifa; nevertheless he thought Barret was encouraging Cloud to confess specifically to Tifa during their talk
• Maddy and Jason both got Aerith as the final date - however, Maddy had come around since episode 2 and was now agreeing with Kirk’s perspective that the game appeared to favour Cloud and Tifa as a couple
• Maddy agreed that Barret was likely talking about Tifa, and agreed with Kirk that the game had distinguished Cloud and Tifa as a romantic pair by giving them a kiss during their date (if high affection is achieved, of course)
• Jason humorously continued to be fairly un-fussed about the topic of romance and the LTD, but did add that he was unsurprised about the kiss between Cloud and Tifa as he believed the original game was very un-subtle about the two having sex

I had wanted to post previously about the curiosity of having listened to Triple Click’s second Rebirth episode and hearing LTD discussion suddenly derail Triple Click’s typical harmony. But now having listened to their final spoiler episode, I couldn’t resist any longer.

So here are my key takeaways:

1. I think many people who are into Final Fantasy VII have a strong opinion about the love triangle, whether they want to admit it or not
2. I think many, more flexible observers, can admit that the Remake trilogy is being more clear and specific about who loves who in this story
3. As has been discussed in the past, observers of the love triangle debate often bring their own preferences and beliefs about love and relationships and this informs which side of the triangle they prefer

It was a lot of fun to hear more casual observers of the LTD share their thoughts on it, as while there’s certainly plenty of streamers sharing their views on this topic these days, I hadn’t heard the LTD discussed on what is a pretty premium podcast format before. If anyone else has heard the LTD pop up on other podcasts or discussions, I’d love to hear about it!

I find the topic of non LTD people weighing in interesting because in real life I have friends with many different perspectives:

My husband is prefers Tifa and sees Cloti as obvious. He never played OG until I made him before Remake lol. But he didn't like it and stopped at Midgar. He likes Remake and Rebirth. Was annoyed by Aerith at first but now likes her now. He was annoyed by Jessie and still is eh towards her.
He still prefers Tifa and sees her as endgame.
He doesn't care about LTD and thinks it's weird but supports my passion lol.

Then all my friends who have played FF7 also love Aerith. I don't think any of them don't like any girl. They like them all. Several of them even prefer Aerith for romance too. None hate Tifa.

One of them is a Clerith and only accepts Clerith canon.

The rest don't care at all about LTD. They don't know what the heck I'm talking about in terms of canon or not or Ultimanias lol. Some are going for the Tifa date. Some are going for the Aerith date. It doesn't go deeper than that for most of them and some think Cloud has feelings for both, some just to Aerith and some just to Tifa. It's very mixed. They also all like Zack for the most part..

One of my closest friends is a Zerith main lol. She likes Tifa and accepts Cloti as canon but is there for Zerith.

My brother loves Aerith, Tifa and Jessie and prefers Jessie for him, as in she is his type. But he calls Cloud and Tifa "super obvious". He however thinks Cloud made the Lifestream shenanigans because of his guilt for Aerith's death. He accepts Zerith canon but also doesn't care about LTD and thinks I'm "crazy for being involved in internet fights".

Yep lol.

It's funny how to true it is that even non LTDers have their opinions.

My wife is big into shipping but does not quite 'get' the whole LTD itself.

- actually no they use this against Tifa sayin she's a creepy weirdo going into Cloud's room. Yeaaaahhh? why doesnt Cloud mind?? unless she's supposed to on that room as well? Lmao

That's exactly my point. They treat it like she's being weird that she's in there because they assume it has to be weird that she's in there and ignore the fact that Cloud is totally fine with her being there. That it's normal and expected for her to be there. That's not something I personally would be with someone I considered just a roommate.

What is the probability of the game starting with playable Tifa? I should specify not the opening of the game but the first person we control whenever we get to the first gameplay section?

I could see getting to play as her for a short stretch in the opening to prepare for her stint as party leader.
I'm curious when and where Pt 3 is going to start from. I could see Icicle inn, or perhaps Modeoheim, as that's also in the area and would give us another Zack Flash to bring that up immediately.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Usually I only hear that from my wife.

Yeah, I'm not touching that one

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more "Shelke's normal person lessons" is the perfect framing device for this. "I don't know what normal is, but I'm sure you people are not it."

I like it, and think it's the best use for Shelke we could think of. We can even track progress by how often she calls people by their full name. Early on, it's always. As "normal" grows on her, she re-learns saying "Hi Cloud" rather than "Hello, Cloud Strife."

As nature intended.

All natural hijinks.

Maybe someone working on a different energy source, so there's a little bit of friction in there initially.

Not a bad idea, plus let's be honest it'd be nice to find some green sources in production. The joke about going back to fossil fuels being the better option has had it's time, bring the n the wind and solar. Also give her a robot leg to mirror and invert Barret's arm.

You'd think for people who view Aerith as goodness personified would try and act in her example, but as with real world religions, it just does not work that way.

Much like real life religious folk, you see someone try now and then. Just... rarely enough that it's a surprise every time.

I remember way back when Anastar came and "fought her dial-up connection" to post here and she literally contradicted herself not just factually, but argumentatively in like every post. She held two contradictory positions because she thought they helped her arguments, but did not realize how they conflicted.

Holy shit I'd straight forgotten Anastar. Probably because she just wasn't on BlankBeat level of crazed dishonesty. Like, if they were Sith BB would be the master, Anastar the apprentice. The disappointing one that refuses to get good enough to ride up and slay you.

As always, take your time.

Though I am always in haste, I am never in a hurry.

I do believe it's Marlene referring to Barret, but Cloud is still including Marlene as part of his family.
I literally have a janky MSPaint venn diagram for this, but the short version is that Cloud and Tifa are not and will never be Marlene's mom and dad and they don't want to be, but they are parental figures for her. To Denzel, Cloud and Tifa ARE mom and dad now, and they do view him as their child.

Cloud and Tifa are Uncle/Aunt. Expected and willing to do everything a parent would do when Barret isn't around.

So have they started trying to invalidate Cloud/Tifa's agency in building a family with ye olde "Marlene put Cloud in the family it doesn't count" again or is the pin still in that repeat grenade?

I suppose these Cleriths are totally okay with their roommates hovering in their rooms at night while they're asleep.

To be fair, I regularly crash with my roomie present, especially in the morning after the kids are off to school. Also to be fair I'm aware this is odd. Also also to be fair, Cloud is also odd. Final to be fair, he's not the same odd as me seriously though, this will never not be a weird take to use.

Cloud isn't drifting away so much as pulling inward because he's self punishing. He has a complex about how happy he is and feels he doesn't deserve it. The rest I think is accurate though.

It could be argued that "inward" is a direction "away from Tifa.". It's clear that "away from Tifa" is A) a common issue for depressed, self-punishing individuals and B) about as unhealthy for the lad as you can get. After all, he doesn't start to make any progress until he opens back up to her again.

You've unlocked a very old memory friend. The rival orphanages. In the Pre-AC days the Cleriths were CONVINCED not only that Tifa ran an orphanage, but so did Cloud, and they were rivals... somehow.

That is a whole heap of herp backed by a dump truck worth of derp.

That could be Blankbeat's screeds. She is constantly quoting and reblogging them etc. to drive up circulation. She's not the only one, sure, but she's definitely very much in the "tear down C/T to fluff up C/A" camp.

No one who met BB would be surprised if you're right. At least the story with the misled 12 year old ended wholesomely.

 

[abzy1200]

That's exactly my point. They treat it like she's being weird that she's in there because they assume it has to be weird that she's in there and ignore the fact that Cloud is totally fine with her being there. That it's normal and expected for her to be there. That's not something I personally would be with someone I considered just a roommate.

Cleriths will always, and I mean always, reveal they hate Tifa sooner or later.

They always characterize her as some kind of third wheeling moron, based on mistranslations, of course.

Forget that she's the only person Cloud opened his heart to.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, I'm not touching that one

Of course not. My wife. My touchy.

I like it, and think it's the best use for Shelke we could think of. We can even track progress by how often she calls people by their full name. Early on, it's always. As "normal" grows on her, she re-learns saying "Hi Cloud" rather than "Hello, Cloud Strife."

In the series finale she meets Johnny and decides "Okay, they are normal... in comparison."

Not a bad idea, plus let's be honest it'd be nice to find some green sources in production. The joke about going back to fossil fuels being the better option has had it's time, bring the n the wind and solar. Also give her a robot leg to mirror and invert Barret's arm.

Even Nuclear would be a better option, really, but yes, wind and solar as well.

Much like real life religious folk, you see someone try now and then. Just... rarely enough that it's a surprise every time.

Aye. It's sad.

Holy shit I'd straight forgotten Anastar. Probably because she just wasn't on BlankBeat level of crazed dishonesty. Like, if they were Sith BB would be the master, Anastar the apprentice. The disappointing one that refuses to get good enough to ride up and slay you.

Nah, Anastar was the old master, fallen as the hate of the old apprentice makes them the new master.

Though I am always in haste, I am never in a hurry.

And you arrive precisely when you mean to?

Cloud and Tifa are Uncle/Aunt. Expected and willing to do everything a parent would do when Barret isn't around.

So have they started trying to invalidate Cloud/Tifa's agency in building a family with ye olde "Marlene put Cloud in the family it doesn't count" again or is the pin still in that repeat grenade?

It pops up. Never mind that repeatedly it's described as "the family [Cloud and Tifa] were forming in edge," Four year old Marlene is the true arbiter of the family unit.

To be fair, I regularly crash with my roomie present, especially in the morning after the kids are off to school. Also to be fair I'm aware this is odd. Also also to be fair, Cloud is also odd. Final to be fair, he's not the same odd as me seriously though, this will never not be a weird take to use.

But does your roommate continue to hang about around your bed in the middle of the night while you sleep? That's the part that's strange for a roommate but not for a lover. If you pass out on the couch and roommate sticks around that's one thing, because that's the public part of the house. Your bedroom is another matter entirely.

It could be argued that "inward" is a direction "away from Tifa.". It's clear that "away from Tifa" is A) a common issue for depressed, self-punishing individuals and B) about as unhealthy for the lad as you can get. After all, he doesn't start to make any progress until he opens back up to her again.

It's away from Tifa but without intending to be, was what I was trying to get at.

That is a whole heap of herp backed by a dump truck worth of derp.

That was some of the classic nonsense on Anastar's old site. Her and FFG.

No one who met BB would be surprised if you're right. At least the story with the misled 12 year old ended wholesomely.

Yeah, that's why it is important to pop up and say "that's not correct" every so often.

Cleriths will always, and I mean always, reveal they hate Tifa sooner or later.

They always characterize her as some kind of third wheeling moron, based on mistranslations, of course.

Sometimes outright lies too.

Forget that she's the only person Cloud opened his heart to.

I believe there's an ever in there as well, but yes. Many years ago, when I was extremely frustrated I compiled a list, I think I called it the short simple list or something like that, and it was just a bunch of statements, from developers, about C/T, about how they belonged together or were special or unique to each other. That line was on the list.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Always huh? I guess as a Clerith I have to hate Tifa by default then. No choice.

In fact I hated Tifa so much I had a blog post on how Cloud's answer to Do you love Marlene is supposed to be his answer to Tifa's "Do you love me?" And the answer being yes but I just don't know how to act around her sometimes. Which was what kicked off my series of essays on ACC. I was kinda facinated by the writing style in COT.

What can I say. Nothing is stopping my fated rage towards her.

Hm. Though I have to say. I really like listening to people who have no idea about LTD stuff try to puzzle it out. My husband does like romance he just doesn't care for any debates about it. While I'm all for debates because I like arguing I guess.

It's funny how different outside perspectives can be. Also very insightful. And I really think the main people you need to convince are those outsiders and more casual fans to end the LTD not the people entrenched in the war for years. And I think ReTrilogy is on the way to do just that.

 

[abzy1200]

Always huh? I guess as a Clerith I have to hate Tifa by default then. No choice.

In fact I hated Tifa so much I had a blog post on how Cloud's answer to Do you love Marlene is supposed to be his answer to Tifa's "Do you love me?" And the answer being yes but I just don't know how to act around her sometimes. Which sparked my character defense posts.

What can I say nothing is stopping my fated rage towards her.

Ah, when I say "Cleriths" I mean those who are vocal about it being canon.

My bad