What if? Zack / Cloud role reversal.

[X-SOLDIER]

I was thinking the other day that although Cloud and Zack had similiar events in their lives, spikey hair, and weilded the Buster Sword, they're each unique and have different skills. What if they had their roles reversed?

Alt FFVII Scenario 1: Cloud Only What if Cloud WAS the SOLDIER that he believed himself to be, and had to fight through the events in Crisis Core.

• Which scenarios would have been easier/more difficult for him?
• Would he have survived against the Shin-Ra army in the end? (We've never really seen Cloud fight against a large force quite like that).

Alt FFVII Scenario 2: Zack Only What if Zack had barely survived fighting off the Shin-Ra army, because of Cloud making a sacrifice, made it to Midgar and joined up with AVALANCHE with Tifa unaware, but seeing something familiar in him.

• What moments would be more intense?
• Where would Zack have had an easier/harder time?
• Would he have been able to defeat Sephiroth?

Anyhows, I figured this would make an interesting discussion.
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They both give interesting viewpoints for how it would alter the story: but just as food for thought, here's some ideas:


• Nibelhiem being altered by Cloud actually returning.
• Would Cloud have defeated Sephiroth at Nibelheim on his own (with his already strong motivation)?
• Would Cloud still have developed his mopey complex for having to (practically) kill his close friends (Seph/Genesis/Angeal)
• Would his interactions with Shin-Ra have been different / the president remembered him?

• After everything that happened, seeing Sephiroth kill Aerith in front Zack. (the whole of FFVII would be a tough memories / revenge story).

Discuss.


X

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'll give a few short answers here, and contribute more in depth later.

• Which scenarios would have been easier/more difficult for him?

I think given that Cloud's weaknesses exist in his psyche, I think that Genesis could have been able to psyche him out quite a few times and fuck with his head.

• Would he have survived against the Shin-Ra army in the end? (We've never really seen Cloud fight against a large force quite like that).

It's hard to say. I'm in the minority that DOESN'T believe that Zack really whittled down those Shinra forces to three dudes and a helicopter, and to that end, I don't think Cloud could do much better. It would have been a hell of a fight, though.

Alt FFVII Scenario 2: Zack Only What if Zack had barely survived fighting off the Shin-Ra army, because of Cloud making a sacrifice, made it to Midgar and joined up with AVALANCHE with Tifa unaware, but seeing something familiar in him.

• What moments would be more intense?
• Where would Zack have had an easier/harder time?
• Would he have been able to defeat Sephiroth?

Seeing what would happen with Tifa would be interesting. Zack and Aerith would have banged (some more). Zack would have had a lot easier time going against Shinra, but I'm not sure if he would have joined up with AVALANCHE. As far as defeating Sephiroth, I believe that Zack and Cloud have around the same potential, and Zack could have eventually defeated Sephiroth just like Cloud did if he ever actually got the chance.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I'll give a few short answers here, and contribute more in depth later.



I think given that Cloud's weaknesses exist in his psyche, I think that Genesis could have been able to psyche him out quite a few times and fuck with his head.



It's hard to say. I'm in the minority that DOESN'T believe that Zack really whittled down those Shinra forces to three dudes and a helicopter, and to that end, I don't think Cloud could do much better. It would have been a hell of a fight, though.



Seeing what would happen with Tifa would be interesting. Zack and Aerith would have banged (some more). Zack would have had a lot easier time going against Shinra, but I'm not sure if he would have joined up with AVALANCHE. As far as defeating Sephiroth, I believe that Zack and Cloud have around the same potential, and Zack could have eventually defeated Sephiroth just like Cloud did if he ever actually got the chance.

I agree with this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Great topic idea.

Alt FFVII Scenario 1: Cloud Only What if Cloud WAS the SOLDIER that he believed himself to be, and had to fight through the events in Crisis Core.

• Which scenarios would have been easier/more difficult for him?

Probably all of them would have been harder. I don't see Cloud becoming Angeal's pet the way Zack did.

• Would he have survived against the Shin-Ra army in the end? (We've never really seen Cloud fight against a large force quite like that).

Like Mog, I imagine it would have turned out much the same.

Alt FFVII Scenario 2: Zack Only What if Zack had barely survived fighting off the Shin-Ra army, because of Cloud making a sacrifice, made it to Midgar and joined up with AVALANCHE with Tifa unaware, but seeing something familiar in him.

• What moments would be more intense?

Probably any that involved the topic of Nibelheim coming up. As well, Tifa may have had some trouble accepting Zack given that he was there when all that shit went down.

• Where would Zack have had an easier/harder time?
• Would he have been able to defeat Sephiroth?

I think Zack would have had a more difficult time with Sephiroth for the simple fact that Seph wouldn't have been toying around with him the way he did with Cloud. The only reason Sephiroth lost in FFVII is because he kept dicking around instead of just shanking Cloud and the others outright.

Given that Cloud's mental weakness put him in a position to be dicked around with, and given that Zack didn't have that weakness -- to say nothing of the personal vendetta Seph held against Cloud, which is what incited him to fuck with the guy's head in the first place -- I'd say that Sephiroth would have probably just went ahead and killed Zack and the rest of the team at first opportunity (i.e. in the Shin-Ra building, when they were locked in the cells).

I'm in the minority that DOESN'T believe that Zack really whittled down those Shinra forces to three dudes and a helicopter ...

What do you think happened?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

What do you think happened?

Oh I know he kicked some ass. Even when he fell to the ground, the sounds of gunfire and fighting when the screen went dark implies that he had a little bit of fight left in him. But just a little, and certainly not enough to get back up and take out all of those soldiers and helicopters in the backdrop. I think the three soldiers at the end was just for thematic effect (to emulate the original FFVII scene) and to give a more personal touch to it (it's more hard hitting to have Zack being 'finished off' by a few dudes than to have some Shoot 'Em Up-esque scenario of dozens of dudes shooting him to death, filing out and leaving, and then Cloud crawling to his side).

I think that Zack fought off a lot of the soldier dudes, collapsed, got back up, fought a little more, retreated to the cliff, and the rest of the army detached while a small squad looked for him and finished him off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well, the screen doesn't go black with Zack on the ground. He's still standing when the initial battle ends. It just fades to black at that point, with the sounds of gunfire and battle continuing. When the screen comes back up, we're now at the cliff, with just those three guys and one helicopter left.

Seeing as how Zack could barely stand at that point, I don't think he retreated to the cliff so much as the battle just carried over that way. Looking at the ending, strewn around the cliff, there's gear and weapons belonging to soldiers -- and SOLDIERs even -- he'd apparently defeated during the course of the battle.

So I'm in the "Zack really did beat all but those three guys -- and even some SOLDIERs who showed up before the fight was over" camp.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, the screen doesn't go black with Zack on the ground. He's still standing when the initial battle ends. It just fades to black at that point, with the sounds of gunfire and battle continuing.

Ah, I stand corrected.

Still though, my interpretation/opinion of the events still stand. I understand its an unpopular one, but I always thought the 'he beat all of them except those three dudes' scenario to be...a bit silly.

He ain't that cool.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Still though, my interpretation/opinion of the events still stand. I understand its an unpopular one, but I always thought the 'he beat all of them except those three dudes' scenario to be...a bit silly.

I always thought it emphasized just how close he came to being home free myself.

He ain't that cool.

He's pretty damn cool.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I always thought it emphasized just how close he came to being home free myself.

I always interpreted that it emphasized that no matter what, even a great hero SOLDIER 1st class is still human and mortal, able to be killed just like the rest of us.

He's pretty damn cool.

Yeah, he is.

Just not bullet deflecting cool. Sadly. I like Zack!

 

[Loxetta]

If Cloud had been a SOLDIER and in Zack's role of the story, I honestly think he would have deserted upon discovering Angeal's reasons for leaving. Cloud probably would have been deeply troubled by learning of the Jenova Project and what it really means to be a SOLDIER, and would have been plagued by doubt and faltered into 'angst-mode', so to speak. In contrast to Zack who, while still upset, was still determined to prove what he could be despite what he was. I think it would have taken Cloud a lot of growing to reach that kind of mindset, because Cloud and Zack, while they had highly similar goals, seemed to have entirely different reasons for those goals, and of course different predispositions.

And I agree with Mog, Genesis likely would have had a much easier time screwing with Cloud's head than he did with Zack's, which would have only amplified the points I made above.

For the sake of the discussion, if somehow Cloud had stayed with SOLDIER and gone to Nibelheim, I'd imagine him and Tifa would have caught up with one another when he arrived, but the bulk of the event would have gone on much the same. As for fighting Sephiroth, Cloud probably would have had an easier time doing so. It would have been a personal matter to him, unlike it was for Zack. Sephiroth killed Cloud's mother, hurt the girl he cares for and killed her father, and burned down their hometown. In canon, Zack didn't have the same personal connection to Sephiroth's wrongs, and tbh I think it had a hand in Zack's defeat.

The climax of the Genesis fiasco probably would have played out largely the same as when Zack dealt with it, but he would have needed a reason to go to Midgar. In canon Zack goes there because of Aerith, so perhaps he hears rumors or something that Tifa is alive and well in Midgar? But if he had reason to go, and encountered the army blocking his way, then I think he probably wouldn't have made it. Zack was a powerful fighter, and had a very strong reason to survive the fight, and yet didn't make it. I don't think Cloud would have been capable of pulling off better, considering he would have had the same circumstances.

Whew.

Now, if Zack had survived that day instead of Cloud, and been the main character in the OG, then obviously the first place he would go would be Aerith's church. However, I still think he would have gotten a job for AVALANCHE, because he would have still been a mercenary looking for work even if he probably crashed in the Church. Zack would have gotten closer, faster, with the other AVALANCHE members, including Tifa, who I'd imagine would have remembered Zack but softened up to him after learning what happened to him and that he had nothing to do with Shinra anymore. (She would have been quite devastated to learn Cloud was gone, but since this is a Zack-Cloud what-if comparison, I won't get into that.)

Most everything up until leaving Midgar would have stayed unchanged -- Wallmarket (though I can't picture Zack as a very pretty girl, so he likely wasn't chosen by the Don ), the plate drop, the Shinra building infiltration (save for Zack knowing more about the Shinra building and being better able to navigate it). It's after that things would have been noticeably different, because Zack's memories would be the real deal for one, and for another, it's questionable what kind of influence Sephiroth would be able to have on Zack, if any at all. Zack underwent the same experiments as Cloud, but Zack has a stronger will and didn't seem affected. It's possible Zack wouldn't have given up the Black Materia and beat up on Aerith, so it would be difficult to plot out how different the game would have been. I think ultimately, Zack would be capable of defeating Sephiroth when the time came, though, especially if Aerith still died. I think she would have been his reason to fight, to do what he could to protect the planet she died for and became a part of, to make sure she hadn't died for nothing.

After that, well I could go on, but I'll stop because that's a lot of fucking typing and I've been here almost an hour already.

Also --

/IMO

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Now, if Zack had survived that day instead of Cloud, and been the main character in the OG, then obviously the first place he would go would be Aerith's church. However, I still think he would have gotten a job for AVALANCHE, because he would have still been a mercenary looking for work even if he probably crashed in the Church. Zack would have gotten closer, faster, with the other AVALANCHE members, including Tifa, who I'd imagine would have remembered Zack but softened up to him after learning what happened to him and that he had nothing to do with Shinra anymore. (She would have been quite devastated to learn Cloud was gone, but since this is a Zack-Cloud what-if comparison, I won't get into that.)

Can you imagine Zack going with the plan to bomb the reactor, though? Cloud did it because he literally did not give a shit, but I can't imagine Zack being cool with that sort of thing. Hell, given his history with the previous, actual AVALANCHE, he might have just chopped Barret's other arm off.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I always interpreted that it emphasized that no matter what, even a great hero SOLDIER 1st class is still human and mortal, able to be killed just like the rest of us.

Well, yeah, the scene as a whole served to do that, but I mean specifically beating all but three guys emphasized to me how unfair the whole thing was -- he was so damn close.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, yeah, the scene as a whole served to do that, but I mean specifically beating all but three guys emphasized to me how unfair the whole thing was -- he was so damn close.

See, I agree that he was close, but I always interpreted the fact that Midgar was on the horizon to emphasize the 'closeness' part and not his actual battle performance (because I don't believe in the 'down to three dudes' interpretation).

I think instead, Zack getting curbstomped by an army (or more accurately, a battalion. Even if the SE gods came from the heavens and said 'yeah Zack brought them down to three dudes', it wasn't an army. Zack beating a literal army and it going unnoticed just days later in the canon (FFVII) is just silly) illustrated the futility of it all, rather than him being close to any victory.

 

[Lord Noctis]

If Cloud had been a SOLDIER and in Zack's role of the story, I honestly think he would have deserted upon discovering Angeal's reasons for leaving. Cloud probably would have been deeply troubled by learning of the Jenova Project and what it really means to be a SOLDIER, and would have been plagued by doubt and faltered into 'angst-mode', so to speak. In contrast to Zack who, while still upset, was still determined to prove what he could be despite what he was. I think it would have taken Cloud a lot of growing to reach that kind of mindset, because Cloud and Zack, while they had highly similar goals, seemed to have entirely different reasons for those goals, and of course different predispositions.

And I agree with Mog, Genesis likely would have had a much easier time screwing with Cloud's head than he did with Zack's, which would have only amplified the points I made above.

For the sake of the discussion, if somehow Cloud had stayed with SOLDIER and gone to Nibelheim, I'd imagine him and Tifa would have caught up with one another when he arrived, but the bulk of the event would have gone on much the same. As for fighting Sephiroth, Cloud probably would have had an easier time doing so. It would have been a personal matter to him, unlike it was for Zack. Sephiroth killed Cloud's mother, hurt the girl he cares for and killed her father, and burned down their hometown. In canon, Zack didn't have the same personal connection to Sephiroth's wrongs, and tbh I think it had a hand in Zack's defeat.

The climax of the Genesis fiasco probably would have played out largely the same as when Zack dealt with it, but he would have needed a reason to go to Midgar. In canon Zack goes there because of Aerith, so perhaps he hears rumors or something that Tifa is alive and well in Midgar? But if he had reason to go, and encountered the army blocking his way, then I think he probably wouldn't have made it. Zack was a powerful fighter, and had a very strong reason to survive the fight, and yet didn't make it. I don't think Cloud would have been capable of pulling off better, considering he would have had the same circumstances.

Whew.

Now, if Zack had survived that day instead of Cloud, and been the main character in the OG, then obviously the first place he would go would be Aerith's church. However, I still think he would have gotten a job for AVALANCHE, because he would have still been a mercenary looking for work even if he probably crashed in the Church. Zack would have gotten closer, faster, with the other AVALANCHE members, including Tifa, who I'd imagine would have remembered Zack but softened up to him after learning what happened to him and that he had nothing to do with Shinra anymore. (She would have been quite devastated to learn Cloud was gone, but since this is a Zack-Cloud what-if comparison, I won't get into that.)

Most everything up until leaving Midgar would have stayed unchanged -- Wallmarket (though I can't picture Zack as a very pretty girl, so he likely wasn't chosen by the Don ), the plate drop, the Shinra building infiltration (save for Zack knowing more about the Shinra building and being better able to navigate it). It's after that things would have been noticeably different, because Zack's memories would be the real deal for one, and for another, it's questionable what kind of influence Sephiroth would be able to have on Zack, if any at all. Zack underwent the same experiments as Cloud, but Zack has a stronger will and didn't seem affected. It's possible Zack wouldn't have given up the Black Materia and beat up on Aerith, so it would be difficult to plot out how different the game would have been. I think ultimately, Zack would be capable of defeating Sephiroth when the time came, though, especially if Aerith still died. I think she would have been his reason to fight, to do what he could to protect the planet she died for and became a part of, to make sure she hadn't died for nothing.

After that, well I could go on, but I'll stop because that's a lot of fucking typing and I've been here almost an hour already.

Also --

/IMO

I have two problems with this. First is that I don't think the army would have stopped Cloud short of Midgar. I always had the impression that if Zack hadn't been lugging Cloud's catatonic ass around he could have evaded the army, and only fought them to protect Cloud.

Second, I think Cloud would have a harder time fighting Sephiroth at Nibelheim than Zack. While Cloud may have a more personnal reason to fight Sephiroth, he would not have abilities advanced as Zack, due to being two years younger.

Aside from that I completely agree.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

due to being two years younger.

Huh. I guess everyone forgot about this little snafu.

 

[Loxetta]

Can you imagine Zack going with the plan to bomb the reactor, though? Cloud did it because he literally did not give a shit, but I can't imagine Zack being cool with that sort of thing. Hell, given his history with the previous, actual AVALANCHE, he might have just chopped Barret's other arm off.

I don't know much about BC or Zack's history with the past AVALANCHE, but I wouldn't put it of the realm of possibility that he could rationalize Old AVALANCHE =/= New AVALANCHE.

And weren't Jessie's bombs supposed to be small and contained in theory? Granted they didn't turn out that way in practice, but Zack might have agreed because they didn't think many (if any) people would get hurt.

He would also have fully remembered everything Shinra had put him through, so revenge or somesuch against them is likely somewhere on his priority list.

I have two problems with this. First is that I don't think the army would have stopped Cloud short of Midgar. I always had the impression that if Zack hadn't been lugging Cloud's catatonic ass around he could have evaded the army, and only fought them to protect Cloud.

A good point, and one I thought of. But X-SOLDIER specifically posted the question of Cloud fighting outside of Midgar though, which is why I put it in there.

Second, I think Cloud would have a harder time fighting Sephiroth at Nibelheim than Zack. While Cloud may have a more personnal reason to fight Sephiroth, he would not have abilities advanced as Zack, due to being two years younger.

Two years younger, yea, but if he was filling Zack's role in the overall plot, he would have been a SOLDIER as long as Zack had been in canon, which would have meant the same training and treatments. So I pitted them at roughly the same, ability-wise.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think instead, Zack getting curbstomped by an army ... illustrated the futility of it all, rather than him being close to any victory.

Well, like Lord Noctis said, I think Zack would have gotten by them just fine if he wasn't dragging Cloud with him. Had he been willing to abandon him even when that army showed up, I think he could have made it across the plains to Midgar.

So I don't think it was ever futile, really. It's just that he chose to sacrifice himself for Cloud if that's what it took.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I don't know much about BC or Zack's history with the past AVALANCHE, but I wouldn't put it of the realm of possibility that he could rationalize Old AVALANCHE =/= New AVALANCHE.

And weren't Jessie's bombs supposed to be small and contained in theory? Granted they didn't turn out that way in practice, but Zack might have agreed because they didn't think many (if any) people would get hurt.

He would also have fully remembered everything Shinra had put him through, so revenge or somesuch against them is likely somewhere on his priority list.



A good point, and one I thought of. But X-SOLDIER specifically posted the question of Cloud fighting outside of Midgar though, which is why I put it in there.



Two years younger, yea, but if he was filling Zack's role in the overall plot, he would have been a SOLDIER as long as Zack had been in canon, which would have meant the same training and treatments. So I pitted them at roughly the same, ability-wise.

Yes, but there is also the age-difference by itself. The older you get, the more your abilities grow. While Cloud may have skill comparable to Zack's at that point, he would not have the same level of brute strength or stamina.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

So I don't think it was ever futile, really. It's just that he chose to sacrifice himself for Cloud if that's what it took.

That's what I mean, though. We know that if it was just Zack, he could have gotten away to safety and made it. But we know that he wouldn't leave Cloud. We know that he would literally rather fight head on and die than abandon his friend, and that's exactly what he did. The futility comes from the fact that he's fighting a battle he cannot win. Also, there's a thematic element to it as well, FFVII players know he's going to die, no matter what, but there's still the desire for Zack to keep going, even though we know there's absolutely nothing that can alter the course of history.

That's what I meant by the futility of the situation.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

... even though we know there's absolutely nothing that can alter the course of history.

Except Compilation canon, you mean.

Honestly, until I saw Zack's eyes close, I wasn't sure that he wasn't going to come through.

That's what I meant by the futility of the situation.

I see what you mean, yeah. We know going into it that he's not supposed to come away from the fight.

 

[Loxetta]

@ Tres and Mog: I think you're both right I saw both aspects. It was futile in a way because even if Zack had finished the last few guys, he was horribly battered and definitely not in travelling condition. There's no certainty that he would have been able to hide should Shinra have sent more troops or SOLDIERs to finish him. And even after that it's possible he could have died from wounds sustained.

And it is still incredibly unfair. He was right friggin' there, and they were only three guys. The Turks were still searching for him as well, and might have found him alive had he been able to last longer.

So yea.

Yes, but there is also the age-difference by itself. The older you get, the more your abilities grow. While Cloud may have skill comparable to Zack's at that point, he would not have the same level of brute strength or stamina.

Probably not, no.

It could have swung either way, for lots of reasons. The reason I believe he would have had an easier instead of harder time is because in canon, he manages to best Sephiroth without any enhancements at all. If Cloud did have SOLDIER enhancements at least on a similar level as Zack in canon, coupled with the powerful personal drive, I think he could have done Sephiroth plenty of damage. I don't believe he would have come out without a scratch, by a long shot, though. He was probably just about as beat up as Zack in canon, if not as beat up and just do damned stubborn and pissed to stay down.

 

[Lord Noctis]

@ Tres and Mog: I think you're both right I saw both aspects. It was futile in a way because even if Zack had finished the last few guys, he was horribly battered and definitely not in travelling condition. There's no certainty that he would have been able to hide should Shinra have sent more troops or SOLDIERs to finish him. And even after that it's possible he could have died from wounds sustained.

And it is still incredibly unfair. He was right friggin' there, and they were only three guys. The Turks were still searching for him as well, and might have found him alive had he been able to last longer.

So yea.



Probably not, no.

It could have swung either way, for lots of reasons. The reason I believe he would have had an easier instead of harder time is because in canon, he manages to best Sephiroth without any enhancements at all. If Cloud did have SOLDIER enhancements at least on a similar level as Zack in canon, coupled with the powerful personal drive, I think he could have done Sephiroth plenty of damage. I don't believe he would have come out without a scratch, by a long shot, though. He was probably just about as beat up as Zack in canon, if not as beat up and just do damned stubborn and pissed to stay down.

Cloud would almost certainly have lost as badly as Zack. Being two years younger would have meant he could not have made SOLDIER as early as Zack did. This means he would not be as experienced as Zack by Nibelheim. Nor would he be as strong. Thats not even mentioning the lack of physical developement and growth. The perssonal drive may have helped to close the gap between him and where Zack would have been. But Cloud at that point would not have enough skill or experience to overcome Sephiroth, even when combined with that drive.

Trust me, two years worth the experience is worth a lot.

 

[Loxetta]

Cloud would almost certainly have lost as badly as Zack. Being two years younger would have meant he could not have made SOLDIER as early as Zack did. This means he would not be as experienced as Zack by Nibelheim. Nor would he be as strong. Thats not even mentioning the lack of physical developement and growth. The perssonal drive may have helped to close the gap between him and where Zack would have been. But Cloud at that point would not have enough skill or experience to overcome Sephiroth, even when combined with that drive.

Trust me, two years worth the experience is worth a lot.

I've no doubt what two years can mean. But the hypothetical question states that Cloud is serving in Zack's role in the Compilation. Meaning he would have had to be a SOLDIER for roughly the same length of time Zack-in-canon was, in order for him to be in a position where he would be involved with the Genesis War and the desertion of Genesis and Angeal.

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree here. Two years is a long time, yes, but as far as SOLDIER training and experience, in the hypothetical scenario, Cloud and Zack would be in the same ballpark.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But you have to understand that if we're assuming that Cloud was a SOLDIER the same time Zack was, that creates a snafu in itself. Didn't Zack join SOLDIER at 14? So that means that Cloud would have had to join SOLDIER at 12 years old, and well...I don't think Shinra accepts people into their elite fighting force before their balls drop.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Both attempted to join SOLDIER at 14. Zack succeeded, while Cloud didn't.

So by the time Cloud failed to join, Zack had already been in there for a couple of years.