What if? Zack / Cloud role reversal.

[Lord Noctis]

I've no doubt what two years can mean. But the hypothetical question states that Cloud is serving in Zack's role in the Compilation. Meaning he would have had to be a SOLDIER for roughly the same length of time Zack-in-canon was, in order for him to be in a position where he would be involved with the Genesis War and the desertion of Genesis and Angeal.

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree here. Two years is a long time, yes, but as far as SOLDIER training and experience, in the hypothetical scenario, Cloud and Zack would be in the same ballpark.

Well I suppose its possible Cloud might be on the same level as Zack, if we assume he was somehow able to join SOLDIER as early. I suppose that could even be possible, since we don't know exactly when Zack joined. Maybe he didn't join until he was sixteen. So I suppose I agree that Cloud could have been as good as Zack under those circumstances, but I don't think he could have beat Sephiroth.

EDIT:Is there and official source that states when Zack joined?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I suppose that could even be possible, since we don't know exactly when Zack joined.

His parents say that he left almost 10 years before the original game, so he would have been 14 then. Same age Cloud was when he left to go to Midgar, but only seven years before the original game.

EDIT: Checking his profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, says Zack left at 13, actually.

 

[Lord Noctis]

His parents say that he left almost 10 years before the original game, so he would have been 14 then. Same age Cloud was when he left to go to Midgar, but only seven years before the original game.

In that case I would assume Cloud would not be as good as Zack. But hypotheticly if Cloud could get into SOLDIER earlier, than I could agree with Loxetta.

 

[Edley]

I would have liked to have seen Soldier!Cloud and Zack fight together. Forget the Shinra Army, those dudes would have wiped the floor with anyone in their way, including Sephiroth. Cloud as a Soldier and Zack's training would have been pretty well equipped to deal with what was thrown at him, however he only gets by Sephiroth alone if he can surprise him like Shinra grunt Cloud did. If he fights the Shinra army in the same situation Zack was in, he's going to get killed.

The other scenario is hard to fathom. You're saying Tifa has no memory of Zack in Nibelheim and Zack has no memory of Cloud? Tifa told Zack she hated him in the reactor so it would be interesting to see how accepting she was of him. Unlike Cloud, she's not in love with the guy, so she's probably less tolerant of his bull. Does Aerith run off to pray to Holy alone if her man is still around? I'm not sure. Maybe she doesn't die there. Even more interesting, what if Zack imprints Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Oh no.. were in bad fanfiction territory.

 

[Lord Noctis]

In response to the second scenario I would like to post this.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4220331/1/Splintered_Dreams

I would like to make it very clear I did not write this, but I have immense respect for the person who did.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well shit. I'll be up all night with this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Well shit. I'll be up all night with this.

You know, the instructions that come with the pills say that if it lasts more than four hours, you're supposed to seek immediate medical attention.

 

[Tifaeria]

Oh wow, I was wondering when that story would be brought up! That's all I thought about when reading this thread! If you're wondering what a good scenario of what would happen if Zack lived, that's a good thing to read through (although if you're shipping Zack/Aerith, you might not like it too much. But that's really only for hardcore shippers). And like Mog said, you'll be up alll night reading it!

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Well shit. I'll be up all night with this.

Good god. Saem.


X

 

[ForceStealer]

You know, the instructions that come with the pills say that if it lasts more than four hours, you're supposed to seek immediate medical attention.

 

[Strangelove]

Cock jokes. Classy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Classy. That's me.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

On the subject of Cloud winning or not winning against Sephiroth in Nibelheim, I'm torn. On the one hand, Cloud was able to defeat Sephiroth with absolutely no SOLDIER enhancements and only grunt level training (and from what the game showed us, the grunts... suck). But, he had the element of surprise when he initially wounded Sephy, and again when he flung him off the bridge. If Cloud had been in Zack's shoes, with SOLDIER enhancements and experience (one assumes that if he is in Zack's role he is 1st Class at this time) Sephiroth would have been more likely to take him somewhat seriously, preventing that surprise advantage.

Myself, I lean towards Cloud getting curb-stomped initially, followed by him summoning that bizarre strength he showed off in terms of what really happened and managing to rise one final time to get the drop on Sephiroth as he left with mommy's head.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Interesting, but do you think Cloud would be able to knock Sephiroth into the Lifestream, or would he kill Sephiroth outright without knocking him into the mako?

Or maybe Sephiroth would manage to counter-attack and kill him?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Well, for hypothetical narrative's sake we'd have to have Cloud survive to continue on to be in Zack's shoes at least till the battle outside of Midgar, but that's not what I base my answer on. I'm basing this off of what we know about Sephiroth and Cloud in the OG, the parts of it that would remain the same even if Cloud was a SOLDIER 1st Class rather than some nameless grunt in Nibelheim.

The main reason Cloud was able to throw Sephy off the bridge, imo, was not the strength he summoned. That was the catalyst, but it would have been simple enough to defeat his tactics, Sephiroth just had to, y'know, let go of the damned sword. He didn't, because he was shocked that Cloud was able to perform such a feat at all, let alone with three feet of steel through his chest. That same surprise would come into play in the scenario I imagine.

When I really think about it, I picture this: Cloud runs into the Mako Reactor first, because he is a SOLDIER and Zack is a grunt. Unlike Zack, he doesn't get into the reactor room quite as fast, because he stops to help Tifa. He then runs in, and Sephiroth is already severing Jenova's head. Since he was never interrupted, Sephy is very focused on this task, allowing Cloud to get that all important sneak attack in after all. Sephiroth is, however, on such a higher level than Cloud that even with this wound he is able to curbstomp him and fling him back into the pod-room. Zack shows up, takes the Buster Sword, and tries to fulfill Cloud's original role from the OG. He lacks sufficient motivation to actually do as well as Cloud, however, thus he gets crushed. Cloud, enraged that his best friend is so badly hurt in addition to the harm done to his hometown/childhood crush/mother, rises up in his defense, gets stabbed, and flings Sephy off the bridge.

But, even as I type out that scenario, another idea springs to mind. If this is a true role-reversal, with Cloud as the SOLDIER and Zack as the grunt, to keep it true to the story while also switching them out, wouldn't we have to move the entire Nibelheim incident to Gongagga? Thus allowing Zack to more accurately fullfill Cloud's role in the story?

 

[Lord Noctis]

Well, for hypothetical narrative's sake we'd have to have Cloud survive to continue on to be in Zack's shoes at least till the battle outside of Midgar, but that's not what I base my answer on. I'm basing this off of what we know about Sephiroth and Cloud in the OG, the parts of it that would remain the same even if Cloud was a SOLDIER 1st Class rather than some nameless grunt in Nibelheim.

The main reason Cloud was able to throw Sephy off the bridge, imo, was not the strength he summoned. That was the catalyst, but it would have been simple enough to defeat his tactics, Sephiroth just had to, y'know, let go of the damned sword. He didn't, because he was shocked that Cloud was able to perform such a feat at all, let alone with three feet of steel through his chest. That same surprise would come into play in the scenario I imagine.

When I really think about it, I picture this: Cloud runs into the Mako Reactor first, because he is a SOLDIER and Zack is a grunt. Unlike Zack, he doesn't get into the reactor room quite as fast, because he stops to help Tifa. He then runs in, and Sephiroth is already severing Jenova's head. Since he was never interrupted, Sephy is very focused on this task, allowing Cloud to get that all important sneak attack in after all. Sephiroth is, however, on such a higher level than Cloud that even with this wound he is able to curbstomp him and fling him back into the pod-room. Zack shows up, takes the Buster Sword, and tries to fulfill Cloud's original role from the OG. He lacks sufficient motivation to actually do as well as Cloud, however, thus he gets crushed. Cloud, enraged that his best friend is so badly hurt in addition to the harm done to his hometown/childhood crush/mother, rises up in his defense, gets stabbed, and flings Sephy off the bridge.

But, even as I type out that scenario, another idea springs to mind. If this is a true role-reversal, with Cloud as the SOLDIER and Zack as the grunt, to keep it true to the story while also switching them out, wouldn't we have to move the entire Nibelheim incident to Gongagga? Thus allowing Zack to more accurately fullfill Cloud's role in the story?

Your hypothetical scenarios are epic. What do you think would happen if both Cloud and Zack were in SOLDIER at Nibelheim?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Epic? Really? Why thank you, glad you enjoyed.

If we're saying they both made into SOLDIER, then there are some unknowns we have to look into. I'd say they're both considered 1st Class, since its been noted they have very similar potential and such, and Shinra needed someone to fill the top slots after Genesis and Angeal took off. Zack probably wound up with the Buster Sword since he was Angeal's Puppy, whereas I see Cloud (who is a bit younger) getting Angeal's lessons second hand from training with Zack. Thus Cloud has either a standard SOLDIER sword, or perhaps picked up a Force Edge or Mythril Saber somewhere so that he can have his own weapon after becoming 1st.

Now, in those circumstances, I find it quite likely that Sephiroth, as he was during the Nibelheim incident, would get killed outright rather than tossed into the Lifestream. With a full compliment of enhancements for both of them, Cloud and Zack would arrive at roughly the same time. When Cloud went to move Tifa aside, Zack wouldn't just run on, because he'd be aware he has powerful backup in his longtime friend. He also wouldn't want to deny Cloud his chance to lash out at the man who killed his hometown and such. He'd probably be compelled to remind Cloud of his SOLDIER honor, then they'd go after Sephy together.

From watching him spar with Genesis and Angeal, we can reasonably say Sephiroth would hold his own for much of the battle, but that was (mostly) a friendly sparring match, with only Genesis having a personal beef with anyone. Cloud has, as we've been over, a massive rage thing going at Sephiroth. Zack is a little less involved with that regard, but he's Cloud's best friend, he's going to share some of that pain and rage with him and want to help him get justice for his mom and sweetheart and such.

I picture them taking a moment to discuss strategy, remind each other how strong their opponent is, maybe have that SOLDIER honor reminder. Sephiroth exists Jenova's chamber with her severed head in hand. Because Tifa is in the pod room, its not even close to a safe place for a battle, so the first thing Cloud and Zack do is to move the fight outside into the Nibel Mountains. They both take a number of wounds, but because they're supporting each other Sephiroth never has a chance to completely crush or impale anyone before the other is harrying his flanks, forcing him to turn and defend while the other recovers. Just because it would be cool, I picture the finish as some kind of huge double Braver that cleaves him into four pieces.

And that changes the entire picture, of course. Because they're not almost dead, neither Cloud nor Zack winds up involved in the Jenova Reunion experiments. Disgusted by what Hojo is doing, but wary of facing the Turks and Shinra military in their battered state, they'd escape from Nibelheim with Tifa and Zangan. The battle that claimed Zack's life in the OG flashback/CC ending never occurs because they've all left early with no need to escape from their stasis capsules years down the line. They may have become mercenaries, as per Zack's plan from the OG, or they might have just gone directly into joining the second AVALANCHE when Barret forms the organization. The additional muscle from Zack could have helped prevent the deaths of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie, the fall of the Sector 7 plate (since Cloud and Zack are both alive and probably both remember Reno, this could be rather emotional) and so on. Plus Sephy never comes back to life, and thus the entire battle is against Shinra without Sephiroth and WEAPON getting involved. It becomes an entirely different story. And kind of a cool one at that, now that I think about it...

 

[Lord Noctis]

Epic? Really? Why thank you, glad you enjoyed.

If we're saying they both made into SOLDIER, then there are some unknowns we have to look into. I'd say they're both considered 1st Class, since its been noted they have very similar potential and such, and Shinra needed someone to fill the top slots after Genesis and Angeal took off. Zack probably wound up with the Buster Sword since he was Angeal's Puppy, whereas I see Cloud (who is a bit younger) getting Angeal's lessons second hand from training with Zack. Thus Cloud has either a standard SOLDIER sword, or perhaps picked up a Force Edge or Mythril Saber somewhere so that he can have his own weapon after becoming 1st.

Now, in those circumstances, I find it quite likely that Sephiroth, as he was during the Nibelheim incident, would get killed outright rather than tossed into the Lifestream. With a full compliment of enhancements for both of them, Cloud and Zack would arrive at roughly the same time. When Cloud went to move Tifa aside, Zack wouldn't just run on, because he'd be aware he has powerful backup in his longtime friend. He also wouldn't want to deny Cloud his chance to lash out at the man who killed his hometown and such. He'd probably be compelled to remind Cloud of his SOLDIER honor, then they'd go after Sephy together.

From watching him spar with Genesis and Angeal, we can reasonably say Sephiroth would hold his own for much of the battle, but that was (mostly) a friendly sparring match, with only Genesis having a personal beef with anyone. Cloud has, as we've been over, a massive rage thing going at Sephiroth. Zack is a little less involved with that regard, but he's Cloud's best friend, he's going to share some of that pain and rage with him and want to help him get justice for his mom and sweetheart and such.

I picture them taking a moment to discuss strategy, remind each other how strong their opponent is, maybe have that SOLDIER honor reminder. Sephiroth exists Jenova's chamber with her severed head in hand. Because Tifa is in the pod room, its not even close to a safe place for a battle, so the first thing Cloud and Zack do is to move the fight outside into the Nibel Mountains. They both take a number of wounds, but because they're supporting each other Sephiroth never has a chance to completely crush or impale anyone before the other is harrying his flanks, forcing him to turn and defend while the other recovers. Just because it would be cool, I picture the finish as some kind of huge double Braver that cleaves him into four pieces.

And that changes the entire picture, of course. Because they're not almost dead, neither Cloud nor Zack winds up involved in the Jenova Reunion experiments. Disgusted by what Hojo is doing, but wary of facing the Turks and Shinra military in their battered state, they'd escape from Nibelheim with Tifa and Zangan. The battle that claimed Zack's life in the OG flashback/CC ending never occurs because they've all left early with no need to escape from their stasis capsules years down the line. They may have become mercenaries, as per Zack's plan from the OG, or they might have just gone directly into joining the second AVALANCHE when Barret forms the organization. The additional muscle from Zack could have helped prevent the deaths of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie, the fall of the Sector 7 plate (since Cloud and Zack are both alive and probably both remember Reno, this could be rather emotional) and so on. Plus Sephy never comes back to life, and thus the entire battle is against Shinra without Sephiroth and WEAPON getting involved. It becomes an entirely different story. And kind of a cool one at that, now that I think about it...

Thats pretty cool, but I have my own theory if you'll indulge me.

I imagine if Cloud made SOLDIER he would probably be a bit on the cocky side of things. I think he would have in his rage gone after Sephiroth at about the same time as Tifa, rather than waiting for Zack. Cloud would arrive at the reactor just in time to see Tifa go down, and would probably immediately atack Sephiroth in the pod room, but lacking experience he would probably be sent flying into the far wall by Sephiroth after a brief struggle.

This is where I think Zack would arrive. There would be a pause in the action as Sephiroth goes into the Jenova chamber while Zack checks on Cloud and Tifa. Meanwhile Sephiroth then severs Jenova's head. Cloud though roughed up and briefly dazed, would not be seriously injured. Zack might admonish him on trying to challenge Sephiroth alone, and then they would proceed together into the Jenova chamber.

At this point I imagine the fight would go very much like you described, with the two covering each others backs so Sephiroth never has a chance to deliver a killing strike, and eventually he is either thrown into the mako or simply killed. If he is outright killed, it would probably go from there much as you desribed it. If he goes into the mako then Cloud and Zack would rescue Tifa with Zangan, and eventually they would end up in Midgar. Sephiroth would eventually revive but he wouldn't have such a fixation on Cloud, and would not be able to manipulate him. So it would be hard to tell what would happen next. As you said, it would be a very different story.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I think I like your premise for the beginning of the fight better than mine. With Cloud not all knocked silly by the fire, it makes sense he'd be hot on Sephy's heels on the way up the mountain, especially if he knows Tifa is on her way up there. He does the hot-headed angry thing and gets bitchslapped, but goes down so easily/Sephiroth is so consumed with a need to see his 'mother' that he doesn't finish him off. This gives Zack the chance to catch up, lecture Cloud on "coming back alive" and "remembering his SOLDIER honor" and then we move on to the tagteam battle.

With Sephiroth out of the way in my theory, I imagine Aerith doesn't die (since Shinra wants her alive) and meets up with Zack in Midgar. Cloud rescuing Tifa and keeping his promise leads to them hooking up with much less angst and such in the mix. Imagine it, if this particular scenario had taken place, there'd be no LTD at all. Scary the changes that would be wrought upon both our worlds... Some of the characters might not ever join the party (such as Cait Sith, and possibly Vincent). Oh, and I have a deliciously amusing image of the second reactor bombing, where both Cloud AND Zack fall into Aerith's church and an amusing exchange of banter occurs with Zack having done this before, and having to explain to Cloud why falling through a Church roof is so exciting.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I think I like your premise for the beginning of the fight better than mine. With Cloud not all knocked silly by the fire, it makes sense he'd be hot on Sephy's heels on the way up the mountain, especially if he knows Tifa is on her way up there. He does the hot-headed angry thing and gets bitchslapped, but goes down so easily/Sephiroth is so consumed with a need to see his 'mother' that he doesn't finish him off. This gives Zack the chance to catch up, lecture Cloud on "coming back alive" and "remembering his SOLDIER honor" and then we move on to the tagteam battle.

With Sephiroth out of the way in my theory, I imagine Aerith doesn't die (since Shinra wants her alive) and meets up with Zack in Midgar. Cloud rescuing Tifa and keeping his promise leads to them hooking up with much less angst and such in the mix. Imagine it, if this particular scenario had taken place, there'd be no LTD at all. Scary the changes that would be wrought upon both our worlds... Some of the characters might not ever join the party (such as Cait Sith, and possibly Vincent). Oh, and I have a deliciously amusing image of the second reactor bombing, where both Cloud AND Zack fall into Aerith's church and an amusing exchange of banter occurs with Zack having done this before, and having to explain to Cloud why falling through a Church roof is so exciting.

That makes sense. Of course theres also the possibility the whole party might not survive in your theory. In the OG the party was only able to escape because Sephiroth, whether he did it on purpose or not, unlocked their cells during his rampage. Though between Zack and Cloud they might be able to escape anyway, or even avoid being caught to begin with.

Anyway, in my theory I think Sephiroth would die much sooner. Since Cloud's mind would be fine Sephiroth couldn't control him, so if he wanted the Black Materia from the party at the Temple he would have to take it by force. Aerith would not leave on her own since Cloud would never hit her, and so would live, and Sephiroth would probably be defeated during the first trip into the Nortern Crater.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Yeah, I was thinking that with both Cloud and Zack in the party it'd be possible to leave Marlene a little better protected than just having Aerith go to fetch her from the bar, maybe both she and Tifa went to get her while Cloud and Zack go up to reinforce Barret and the others and stop the plate from falling. Thus Aerith doesn't get captured and the raid on Shinra HQ doesn't go down at all the way it did in the OG, which means we might not get to pick up Nanaki as well. Which would suck cause I like Nanaki. I'm sure after everything else that had happened, they'd find a different reason to storm the HQ though, maybe figuring it'd be quicker to kill Shinra by destroying their executive board than by blowing up reactors anyway. I just don't see them getting captured so easily, and if they did they'd find a way out even if Sephy/Jenova wasn't there to let them out.

Also agree that if Cloud had made SOLDIER Sephiroth wouldn't have been able to exert control over him. The whole reason Cloud didn't get into SOLDIER, if I have it right, was due to his mental weakness. He wouldn't have been able to handle the Mako or Jenova Cells (which is proven thanks to Hojo's Reunion experiment in the OG) so in this hypothetical scenario where he made SOLDIER we'd have to think he'd be more mentally strong/have a stronger will from the beginning. So whether Sephiroth returns after the Nibelheim incident or not, we agree it'd be a very different battle than we saw later on. One must also consider that, if Cloud and Zack were never kept in the stasis capsules for 4 years, all this would have begun happening much earlier than it did in the games. They'd be building strength in encounters with monsters and Shinra and possibly the original AVALANCHE before Sephiroth returned, if he did, and thus be at a much higher level than Cloud was at the same point in the OG.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Yeah, I was thinking that with both Cloud and Zack in the party it'd be possible to leave Marlene a little better protected than just having Aerith go to fetch her from the bar, maybe both she and Tifa went to get her while Cloud and Zack go up to reinforce Barret and the others and stop the plate from falling. Thus Aerith doesn't get captured and the raid on Shinra HQ doesn't go down at all the way it did in the OG, which means we might not get to pick up Nanaki as well. Which would suck cause I like Nanaki. I'm sure after everything else that had happened, they'd find a different reason to storm the HQ though, maybe figuring it'd be quicker to kill Shinra by destroying their executive board than by blowing up reactors anyway. I just don't see them getting captured so easily, and if they did they'd find a way out even if Sephy/Jenova wasn't there to let them out.

Also agree that if Cloud had made SOLDIER Sephiroth wouldn't have been able to exert control over him. The whole reason Cloud didn't get into SOLDIER, if I have it right, was due to his mental weakness. He wouldn't have been able to handle the Mako or Jenova Cells (which is proven thanks to Hojo's Reunion experiment in the OG) so in this hypothetical scenario where he made SOLDIER we'd have to think he'd be more mentally strong/have a stronger will from the beginning. So whether Sephiroth returns after the Nibelheim incident or not, we agree it'd be a very different battle than we saw later on. One must also consider that, if Cloud and Zack were never kept in the stasis capsules for 4 years, all this would have begun happening much earlier than it did in the games. They'd be building strength in encounters with monsters and Shinra and possibly the original AVALANCHE before Sephiroth returned, if he did, and thus be at a much higher level than Cloud was at the same point in the OG.

It would make sense for Tifa to go with Aerith since she knows where the bar is, but it is possible Aerith might be caught anyway. Tseng may have had troops with him. But who knows? Either way I agree they would eventually raid Shinra HQ. They might even succeed in taking out all of Shinra's high-end employees like Scarlet, so Shinra would fall apart much quicker.

Also, I actually forgot to take into account the increases in strength Zack and Cloud would get due to having never been imprisoned. It makes me wonder if Sephiroth would even be capable of taking the Black materia from the party at all? Though of course I suppose its possible he could simply use one of Hojo's specimens to get the Black Materia from the Temple before Cloud and the others got there. But even in that case he would probably be killed by the party before he could summon Meteor.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Normal Shinra troops vs Tifa with Aerith's healing abilities as backup sounds like a loss for the Shinra troops to me. I suppose its still possible Aerith might get captured in the struggle, even if Tifa does floor the grunts, leading up to the raid on Shinra HQ (but without having to climb the 'shiny wire of hope' since the train system didn't get destroyed with the Sector 7 plate).

As for Cloud and Zack's increase in strength from being free to train and fight for an additional four years or so, we have to take into account alterations in the rest of the cast that would branch off from that. Barret would probably be roughly the same, but Tifa and Aerith might be substantially different. If we're saying Cloud and Zack rescued her along with Zangan, being with Cloud might have disrupted Tifa's training/given her an alternate outlet for her anger at Shinra besides just pursuing bloody revenge on them. Thus she could be weaker than she was at the start of the OG. Alternately, Cloud might have joined in on her training (I'm sure Zangan would love to see his best student going up against an ex-member of SOLDIER, it'd be good practice for later) and thus she too might actually be stronger. Aerith, of course, isn't terribly strong either way, but with Zack to depend on instead of having to make it in the slums pretty much on her own, she might have been able to devote more time to the study of her inherent abilities, thus being better able to hear the voice of the Planet, and increasing her healing/support limits somewhat. In your theory, I'd go with Sephiroth still ending up falling into the Lifestream, as otherwise revival would be much trickier to figure out/wouldn't come with the same increase in power that he gained after traveling the Lifestream. But even with that increase in strength, everything we're coming up with in terms of what would be different points to him getting his ass kicked much easier than what actually happened. However, since the Sephiroth we saw throughout the OG was actually Jenova taking on Sephy's form and under his mental control, this could actually complicate things as the crew thinks they've killed Sephiroth early in their adventure, and turn their focus back to Shinra company instead, allowing Sephiroth to take the Black Materia covertly and get his Meteor on with no one the wiser until the big flaming rock appears in the sky. Then with Shinra having been finished off by Cloud and Company, who is going to move the Sister Ray where it can be aimed at the Crater? How are we going to get past Sephy's barrier? We can also assume that the cannon is probably destroyed by Sapphire WEAPON's attack on Junon if Shinra has fallen and command structure fallen apart, so it'll be out of commission even if AVALANCHE thinks to use it.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Normal Shinra troops vs Tifa with Aerith's healing abilities as backup sounds like a loss for the Shinra troops to me. I suppose its still possible Aerith might get captured in the struggle, even if Tifa does floor the grunts, leading up to the raid on Shinra HQ (but without having to climb the 'shiny wire of hope' since the train system didn't get destroyed with the Sector 7 plate).

As for Cloud and Zack's increase in strength from being free to train and fight for an additional four years or so, we have to take into account alterations in the rest of the cast that would branch off from that. Barret would probably be roughly the same, but Tifa and Aerith might be substantially different. If we're saying Cloud and Zack rescued her along with Zangan, being with Cloud might have disrupted Tifa's training/given her an alternate outlet for her anger at Shinra besides just pursuing bloody revenge on them. Thus she could be weaker than she was at the start of the OG. Alternately, Cloud might have joined in on her training (I'm sure Zangan would love to see his best student going up against an ex-member of SOLDIER, it'd be good practice for later) and thus she too might actually be stronger. Aerith, of course, isn't terribly strong either way, but with Zack to depend on instead of having to make it in the slums pretty much on her own, she might have been able to devote more time to the study of her inherent abilities, thus being better able to hear the voice of the Planet, and increasing her healing/support limits somewhat. In your theory, I'd go with Sephiroth still ending up falling into the Lifestream, as otherwise revival would be much trickier to figure out/wouldn't come with the same increase in power that he gained after traveling the Lifestream. But even with that increase in strength, everything we're coming up with in terms of what would be different points to him getting his ass kicked much easier than what actually happened. However, since the Sephiroth we saw throughout the OG was actually Jenova taking on Sephy's form and under his mental control, this could actually complicate things as the crew thinks they've killed Sephiroth early in their adventure, and turn their focus back to Shinra company instead, allowing Sephiroth to take the Black Materia covertly and get his Meteor on with no one the wiser until the big flaming rock appears in the sky. Then with Shinra having been finished off by Cloud and Company, who is going to move the Sister Ray where it can be aimed at the Crater? How are we going to get past Sephy's barrier? We can also assume that the cannon is probably destroyed by Sapphire WEAPON's attack on Junon if Shinra has fallen and command structure fallen apart, so it'll be out of commission even if AVALANCHE thinks to use it.

That is interesting. In that scenario I think Sephiroth would actually succeed in his plan. In any case I'm not sure Sephiroth would go down so quickly since he made minimal contact with the party before the Temple in the OG. I think what would happen is Sephiroth would try to take the BM from the party at the Temple, but his puppet form would be destroyed. Cloud and the others think Sephiroth's dead, but they hang onto the BM anyway so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

While they slaughter the Shinra corporation Sephiroth would focus on regenerating his real body. If he was smart he would wait a year or two for the party to go there seperate ways, then start hunting them down one by one in order to find and reclaim the BM, while elimenating the competition while they're scattered, and therefore weak. Its also possible he might take the Spiritual Energy of the Northern cave into his body to enhance his powers so that he would be about as powerful as he was in ACC. In that scenario I'm not ure how things would turn out.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

You make a good point, but Sephiroth tends to be arrogant as hell. After his puppet form was destroyed at the Temple, I don't know that he'd be patient enough to enact a plan like you described or see it as necessary (but then, you did say if he was smart).

He'd likely shrug off the defeat with the belief that Jenova in his likeness wasn't as powerful as he'd become. On the other hand, he'd also have to wait until he was able to leave the Crater, and would likely absorb as much power as possible while waiting, so its likely it would be at least a few weeks/months (the length between the Temple and Sephiroth's final battles in the OG or so) before he set out to enact his plan.

With such an increase in power, if the team had gone their separate ways he'd easily be able to dominate the individuals in combat, with the possible exception of Cloud or Zack who could at least put up a fight. On the other hand, Sephiroth is smart, he just often fails to use common sense. Thus, he'd probably assume the strongest of the team (Zack or Cloud) was in possession of the Black Materia. Since Cloud is united with Tifa and Zack with Aerith at this time, neither of them is completely alone (they may even all be together somewhere, though I assume having left Midgar Aerith would want to continue to travel for a while at least). I find it amusing to have Sephiroth come out again in pursuit of Zack/Cloud to get the Black Materia, only to find Yuffie stole it before returning to Wutai, and the gang all reunites on the way to Wutai to keep it out of his hands once again.