Five Reasons Dirge is a Better Game than people think.

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
So, I was playing this lately, and I noticed a couple of things Dirge actually does pretty well when you think about it.

1: Representation of Women:

For better or worse, I've played a fair few games. You know what never happens? Random, killable female NPCs on both sides. You get female exclusive enemies, like the Alexandrian army or the FROGS, but just having women mixed into the ranks with little distinction...doesn't happen very often. Especially not on both sides, unless they're zombies or splicers or in some sense not in control of their actions. Only other examples I can think of are Mass Effect 2 and Bioshock Infinite. We know the Cocoon in FF13 army recruits women, but we only see a handful of them through the games. Even really well acclaimed games, like the Last of Us, Uncharted, or Tomb Raider don't do this.

As for the main characters, we have a 3:2 split on both sides (Vincent/Cid Reeve: Shalua/Yuffie, Azul/Nero/Weiss:Shelke/Rosso) and none of them are Love Interests if you aren't wearing shipping goggles- Shelke's a maybe, but she has Lucrecia's data ghost in her brain, so I'll give that a pass. Speaking of whom, the game is built on the fact that Lucrecia did Science, and accurately predicted the end of the world (and averted it. For all her apologies, she was right.

Costume designs are kinda stupid, but this is a Final Fantasy game.

2. Vincent.

More precisely, his attitude. He doesn't speak to Azul at all, and mostly only engages with semi-involuntary exclamations "Protomateria?" "What?", direct queries about relevant information " What did you do with Shelke?" "What are Deepground intending to do with Omega?", and telling Hojo to shut up, with but few exceptions. No threats, no snark, no one liners, no arguments about worldviews or the power of friendship. It's the right mix of professionalism and disdain, and you don't see it that often. In spite of his love of needlessly melodramatic killshots, he doesn't waste time mouthing off.

3. He can't handle this alone.

One of the things I enjoyed about Dirge was that it wasn't just Vincent's show with him rescuing everyone. We get to see Cloud tangling with Rosso, Reeve and Shalua taking on DG cannon fodder without much difficulty, and even the WRO rankers get the odd chance to shine. And unlike in AC, when they weren't around they actually had separate objectives, they didn't show up and then sit around on the sidelines. When Vincent does take point, it's because he legitimately can do something no one else can do, and even then Shelke has to help. Cid even has time to complete his objectives and find a shady spot to light up, despite losing all his engine room mechanics.

4. Cid's speech.

The classic speech to give at this point would be "We've gotta do this, whatever it takes", but Dirge doesn't go this route. Cid's speech directly defies it, the WRO army's role is not to be spent to achieve its objective, it's to 'stay alive.' You're not expendable, we want you alive at the end of the day. And Vincent actually abides by this in game in chapter 9, escorting that squad. Some games would have had them all be killed in a cutscene once the checkpoint was hit, but here they meet up with their commander and dig in rather than waste their lives against an impenetrable defence. You can actually work to save the lives of your allies, you get rewarded for it, as opposed to BC's attitude, whereby the Turks are essentially death incarnate to everyone they encounter who isn't a Turk, related to a Turk, or smart enough to prebook a cameo in a later game.

5. Surprisingly pragmatic combat.

Yes, melodramatic cutscenes abound, but lots of people can also be pretty calm and clever under pressure. A superhuman army trying to destroy the world is cause for concern, but not panic. A powerful enemy uses lightsabres that don't work when wet? Shoot out the sprinkler. Another enemy is behind an impenetrable shield? Okay, I'll get the RPG. A heavy hitter with supersenses is standing over the body of my ally. Okay, blind her with a trick, grab him and run.

As for the Tsviets, Azul gets points for being essentially invulnerable, but choosing to walk around under an almost impenetrable magical barrier anyway. Shelke goes into combat invisible. Nero's default method is to absorb enemies into swirly black stuff before they see him. And Rosso learns from her mistake in Edge by distracting Vince with a robot and sneaking up on him while he's recovering from destroying it.

I've got some more, but that'll do for now.
 

Lex

Administrator
I enjoyed Dirge. My problem with it originally was that I didn't feel like I was in the world of FFVII until I emerged from the (now utterly massive) Shinra Mansion basement and recognised where I was. And like every other time SE do a sequel to a game, I don't understand why they couldn't tie it in with the original game more. Who the fuck are Tsviets and why is there now a secret labyrinth under Shinra HQ. I hate retcons.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
True. I thought most of it made sense, though. Kalm and Edge are swollen by Midgar refugees (or were, which is why Edge is stupidly huge for a town occupied by 500 people.)

No excuse for the train graveyard still existing, though.

Massive project wasting time and money for no good reason seemed pretty in character for Shinra to me.
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
Deepground is such a painfully silly concept it makes my head hurt.

That said, when I turn off my brain and get over some of the wonky gameplay decisions (you have to choose between gil or EXP... really?) I actually really enjoyed it. The set pieces were fun, the characters were enjoyable, the level design was astounding (especially the scary as hell ones, which to be honest was kind of all of them).

If I had a copy I'd be playing her right now instead of playing through FF6 and FF7. It's a good game. Not a whole lot of replay unless you want to challenge yourself to low-level play or get the ultmate weapon, but definitely worth a play through or two.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
and accurately predicted the end of the world (and averted it.

Uh no, Lucretia identified a possible means for the end of the world, gathered the neccesary components, and laid out the instructions, giving the bad guys everything they need.

If Lucretia had just left well enough alone, everything would be fine.

And unlike in AC, when they weren't around they actually had separate objectives, they didn't show up and then sit around on the sidelines. When Vincent does take point, it's because he legitimately can do something no one else can do, and even then Shelke has to help. Cid even has time to complete his objectives and find a shady spot to light up, despite losing all his engine room mechanics.

Again no, there's no reason Vincent needs to be the ones to solely take down the Tsviets. And while he was doing that everyone save Yuffie was magically stalemated by Deepground basic forces. Only after Vincent made it from the Train graveyard all the way too Mako Reactor 0 and fought Weiss that they made anymore progres, Shelke makes that clear. I mean sure Cid's ship got shot down but what's Cloud's excuse for not doing what we see him do in the next cinematic a minute after Rosso was out of the picture? Yuffie doesn't even have a motorcycle and she can get around Midgar just fine. I don't see how it's better then being honest about not wanting to steal Cloud's moment.


More precisely, his attitude. He doesn't speak to Azul at all, and mostly only engages with semi-involuntary exclamations "Protomateria?" "What?", direct queries about relevant information " What did you do with Shelke?" "What are Deepground intending to do with Omega?", and telling Hojo to shut up, with but few exceptions. No threats, no snark, no one liners, no arguments about worldviews or the power of friendship. It's the right mix of professionalism and disdain, and you don't see it that often. In spite of his love of needlessly melodramatic killshots, he doesn't waste time mouthing off.

The sheer amount of time he wastes over the past three years doing nothing but stare at Lucretia is forced down our throat over the course of the game so it evens out.
 
Here is my own spin. :awesome:

Five Reasons Dirge of Cerberus is a better game than Crisis Core

- Cutscenes can be skipped :monster:

- Sidequests and Extra Missions (of which there are 46) are way more diverse, engaging and fun than the minigames and missions (nothing but 300 "go defeat this enemy" missions) in Crisis Core.

- The villains (Tsviets and Hojo) are over-the-top in a fun, campy type of way. Genesis and Hollander are just boring and confusing. Sephiroth's presence almost compensates. Almost.

- The perfectly nailed creepy atmosphere of the Shinra Manor. In Crisis Core I just find the Shinra Mansion/Manor to be too bright and silly.

- In DC you perform headshots to do critical damage. In CC you walk up behind the enemy's back to do critical damage each time. Headshots versus bum slashes. Yeah I'll take the former. I feel more dignified that way. Srsly I feel like all I do in CC is cutting bottoms.


Other things that make me like DC more than CC:
- I prefer shorter games. Replayability is way up there for me with DC. Crisis Core is way too overwhelming for constant replays plus I just have way less fun in that game.
- Shelke. I like to think of her as a "Tech/Vulcan Cetran" what-with the scope of her SND abilities. It is great compensation for not having an actual Cetran around in this FFVII title.
- I found the English voice acting to be a way more enjoyable listen in DC than in CC.
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
- Sidequests and Extra Missions (of which there are 46) are way more diverse, engaging and fun than the minigames and missions (nothing but 300 "go defeat this enemy" missions) in Crisis Core.

I completely forgot about those and yes you are very right. Those were pretty freaking awesome little diversions, even though the labyrinth one I found insanely unfairly hard.
 

Mariketsu

I Am the Darkness, I'm the Monster
AKA
Razael
Honestly, I really liked this game. Mind you, gameplay-wise there were oddball quirks and well, it was a 3PS/RPG mix that might not have worked as well as intended, but the story, i felt was really good. Imho, it really filled in a lot of what went on with Lucrecia and Vincent's past well and did answer a lot of questions. I was also relieved to know that she came to realize the mistakes she had and made and such.

The only thing, personally, that felt kind of off was
Vince losing Chaos at the end of it
.. felt like his character lost a good chunk of himself. Other than that, I enjoyed it I also agree that the gameplay is probably what put a lot of people off (as well as the concept of DG, which imho, didn't feel THAT off to me :P).

EDIT: Also need to add, totally agree with hearing the dub in the game being really enjoyable. I LOVE the cellphone scene where we get to hear Cloud, Tifa and Barret bantering to each other while talking to Vincent on his cell. I get a laugh out of it every time :D.

~ Raz
 
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Wolf_

Pro Adventurer
Couldnt have said it better myself Shademp. Love doc. I like all the compilation but the gameplay in DOC is more fun and far less tedious.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Uh no, Lucretia identified a possible means for the end of the world, gathered the neccesary components, and laid out the instructions, giving the bad guys everything they need.

If Lucretia had just left well enough alone, everything would be fine.



Again no, there's no reason Vincent needs to be the ones to solely take down the Tsviets. And while he was doing that everyone save Yuffie was magically stalemated by Deepground basic forces. Only after Vincent made it from the Train graveyard all the way too Mako Reactor 0 and fought Weiss that they made anymore progres, Shelke makes that clear. I mean sure Cid's ship got shot down but what's Cloud's excuse for not doing what we see him do in the next cinematic a minute after Rosso was out of the picture? Yuffie doesn't even have a motorcycle and she can get around Midgar just fine. I don't see how it's better then being honest about not wanting to steal Cloud's moment.




The sheer amount of time he wastes over the past three years doing nothing but stare at Lucretia is forced down our throat over the course of the game so it evens out.

Cause and the solution. Pretty standard for RPGs. And my point was more that she wasn't just doing 'love interest' stuff.


Again no, there's no reason Vincent needs to be the ones to solely take down the Tsviets. And while he was doing that everyone save Yuffie was magically stalemated by Deepground basic forces. Only after Vincent made it from the Train graveyard all the way too Mako Reactor 0 and fought Weiss that they made anymore progres, Shelke makes that clear. I mean sure Cid's ship got shot down but what's Cloud's excuse for not doing what we see him do in the next cinematic a minute after Rosso was out of the picture? Yuffie doesn't even have a motorcycle and she can get around Midgar just fine. I don't see how it's better then being honest about not wanting to steal Cloud's moment.

Midgar's big. It takes a long time to get from the edge to the centre,even if nobody is shooting at you. Rosso was at the Central Complex(well she was with Cloud, but once she gets behind her own lines she can retreat faster than he can follow without abandoning the rest of the army, which would be stupid and dangerous.) Vincent landed closer to the Central Complex, and had Shelke in his ear helping to navigate. He was supposed to land on the Plate, but got shot down. Azul was in the Shinra building basement, at the centre of the city, while all the reactors are at the edges. Sending Cloud to deal with him would take him off the rest of the battlefield, where he could be doing more damage. Eggs in one basket and all that.

Why 'magically' stalemated? Cloud's not immortal, and even pretty good fighters can be ground down with enough numbers, we see that with Zack. He'd have to leave the rest of the troops behind. Yuffie doesn't have a motorbike, she does have a flying surfboard though. And 'ninja' typically means good at stealth, not that she's ever demonstrated that in canon.

Being elsewhere because you're fighting the rest of the army to achieve a relevant objective to save the world is a better excuse than holding off to not hurt someone's feelings, when the fate of the world is at stake.

Five Reasons Dirge of Cerberus is a better game than Crisis Core

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'd put it above BC and AC though.
 

Vito

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I enjoyed Dirge. My problem with it originally was that I didn't feel like I was in the world of FFVII until I emerged from the (now utterly massive) Shinra Mansion basement and recognised where I was. And like every other time SE do a sequel to a game, I don't understand why they couldn't tie it in with the original game more. Who the fuck are Tsviets and why is there now a secret labyrinth under Shinra HQ. I hate retcons.

What other retcons does the game have?
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Midgar's big. It takes a long time to get from the edge to the centre,even if nobody is shooting at you. Rosso was at the Central Complex(well she was with Cloud, but once she gets behind her own lines she can retreat faster than he can follow without abandoning the rest of the army, which would be stupid and dangerous.) Vincent landed closer to the Central Complex, and had Shelke in his ear helping to navigate. He was supposed to land on the Plate, but got shot down. Azul was in the Shinra building basement, at the centre of the city, while all the reactors are at the edges. Sending Cloud to deal with him would take him off the rest of the battlefield, where he could be doing more damage. Eggs in one basket and all that.

Why 'magically' stalemated? Cloud's not immortal, and even pretty good fighters can be ground down with enough numbers, we see that with Zack. He'd have to leave the rest of the troops behind. Yuffie doesn't have a motorbike, she does have a flying surfboard though. And 'ninja' typically means good at stealth, not that she's ever demonstrated that in canon.

Being elsewhere because you're fighting the rest of the army to achieve a relevant objective to save the world is a better excuse than holding off to not hurt someone's feelings, when the fate of the world is at stake.



Well, I wouldn't go that far. I'd put it above BC and AC though.

Cloud didn't seem to have a problem skipping past combatants to engage Rosso when he arrived though. And let me reiterate, Vincent landed way of target, made it through the Traingraveyard, up the plate, to the Shinra compound, up dozens of floor, defeated Rosso took a slow elevator down, defeated Azul, travelled through the entire massive underground city of Deepground, defeated Nero, made it to Mako Reactor 0, fought Weiss and turned into Chaos and travelled back up to the surface and only then did anyone else progress to their targets, which are all on the outskirts of Midgar. Surely at least ONE Mako reactor was facing to the side they were attacking and was easier to get too then Vincent massive journeys wading through most of Deepground's forces personally.

And no, the Yuffie does not have sole completely manourable in every which way surfboard, also she gets airsick, she wouldn't use it. She walked after she hit the ground like everyone else, except Cloud and everyone in the trucks.
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
MJ-Popcorn.gif
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Cloud didn't seem to have a problem skipping past combatants to engage Rosso when he arrived though. And let me reiterate, Vincent landed way of target, made it through the Traingraveyard, up the plate, to the Shinra compound, up dozens of floor, defeated Rosso took a slow elevator down, defeated Azul, travelled through the entire massive underground city of Deepground, defeated Nero, made it to Mako Reactor 0, fought Weiss and turned into Chaos and travelled back up to the surface and only then did anyone else progress to their targets, which are all on the outskirts of Midgar. Surely at least ONE Mako reactor was facing to the side they were attacking and was easier to get too then Vincent massive journeys wading through most of Deepground's forces personally.

And no, the Yuffie does not have sole completely manourable in every which way surfboard, also she gets airsick, she wouldn't use it. She walked after she hit the ground like everyone else, except Cloud and everyone in the trucks.

Depends where she landed, Vincent landed way off course, but he doesn't have to start from the very edge of the city like Cloud.

One reactor was facing the Edge of the city, but they have to get to all of them. We see the last three fall in that cutscene.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHd3LSus5Lk

Nope, they didn't get a single one of them by the time Vincent had completed his part of the mission of defeated all the Tsviets. Because the visual of Omega Weapon being powered by all the Mako Reactor is more important then Cloud, Tifa, Barret and Cid being useful in anyway. I don't see why Advent Children should be crapped on for trying to avoid putting itself in such a position.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Maybe the WRO was specifically trying to take out all the reactors simultaneously?

(By the way, the image of Cloud, Barret, and Tifa tearing through Midgar again on a mission to destroy a reactor is one of my favorite things about Dirge :monster:)
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Eli said:
And no, the Yuffie does not have sole completely manourable in every which way surfboard, also she gets airsick, she wouldn't use it. She walked after she hit the ground like everyone else, except Cloud and everyone in the trucks.
She definitely did use one to get from the airship to ground level (we follow her for a good ten seconds), but who knows where she landed.
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
The train graveyard was probably much bigger than sector 7 itself, and expanded into Sector's 6 and 8. Vincent probably landed in the very edge of it.

Besides at this point in time pretty much any place with trains was a train graveyard... I mean Midgar was like a ghost town wasn't it?
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
WRO lady namechecks it as the 'Sector 7 slums'.

Nope, they didn't get a single one of them by the time Vincent had completed his part of the mission of defeated all the Tsviets. Because the visual of Omega Weapon being powered by all the Mako Reactor is more important then Cloud, Tifa, Barret and Cid being useful in anyway. I don't see why Advent Children should be crapped on for trying to avoid putting itself in such a positio

Fair point about the reactors. But what makes you think they weren't useful? I don't think it's unreasonable to be delayed by thousands of soldiers between you and your target.

Mako reactors are accessible from the Plate. We only know of three ways from the slums to the Plate

1. Golden Shiny Wire of Hope (a one off)
2. The winding tunnel (presumably it's, y'know, winding)
3. The Central Complex (which is central, ie far away from the edge.)

All these routes take time, even when nobody is shooting at you. And all those points are going to be well defended if DG has any sense at all.

Now, you could say Cloud could just jump it, but if he could, so could Vincent, and we have no game.

That visual is followed fairly quickly by Cloud destroying one of those reactors, and Cid and Reeve taking down one each.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
The Plate collapsed. It's not on pillars anymore. Meteor and all that. Kind of a big deal. And again, why are we pretending Vincent landed comparativily close to Mako Reactor 0 and didn't encounter much resistence on the way. That was clearly not the case.
 
WRO lady namechecks it as the 'Sector 7 slums'.

Fair point about the reactors. But what makes you think they weren't useful? I don't think it's unreasonable to be delayed by thousands of soldiers between you and your target.

Mako reactors are accessible from the Plate. We only know of three ways from the slums to the Plate

1. Golden Shiny Wire of Hope (a one off)
2. The winding tunnel (presumably it's, y'know, winding)
3. The Central Complex (which is central, ie far away from the edge.)

All these routes take time, even when nobody is shooting at you. And all those points are going to be well defended if DG has any sense at all.

Now, you could say Cloud could just jump it, but if he could, so could Vincent, and we have no game.

That visual is followed fairly quickly by Cloud destroying one of those reactors, and Cid and Reeve taking down one each.

I've never played this game. How did they manage to do that?

Also... doesn't it seem kind of odd that the mako reactors, which stand on the earth and are part of the support structure for the entire plate, have no access door at ground (i.e., slum) level?
 

Jason Tandro

Banned
AKA
Jason Tandro, Doc Brown, Santa Christ, FearAddict, Thibault Stormrunner, RN: Micah Rodney
Also... doesn't it seem kind of odd that the mako reactors, which stand on the earth and are part of the support structure for the entire plate, have no access door at ground (i.e., slum) level?

Not really when you consider the terrorist groups all lived in the slums.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Regarding the Train Graveyard:

Didn't the Sector 7 plate fall at something of an angle? It may well be that the section Vincent traverses was on the edge that wasn't crushed.

I mean, they do reference the destruction of that sector, so -- despite some other inconsistencies -- I don't think they totally forgot that Sector 7 should be smush.
 
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