How cohesive will (or won't) the remake be with the Compilation? [Discussion split from interview thread]

[Ite]

There's a reason the producers at Square tell Nomura not to engage with fans. Everything the guy says turns into this

 

[Clement Rage]

Seems like there's a few easy compromises, like a white flash before that scene like what normally happens when Cloud searches for a missing memory, and dialogue like 'Was there something else? I don't remember.'

Or else dialogue that gives a vague allusion to it without distracting from what's going on too much. They can't go into detail or else you get

Cloud: And then Genesis showed up and gave him an apple.

Aeris: The SOLDIER 1st? Isn't he dead?

Cloud: No, see, what happened was (explains plot of CC) But anyway, back to what I was saying. We got back to Nibelheim and...

Honestly, I thought the compilation fit into the OG pretty well for the most part. I'd like to see nods, but not derails.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Honestly, I thought the compilation fit into the OG pretty well for the most part. I'd like to see nods, but not derails.

Me too, because it filled up the gaps of certain areas that makes me very relieved(like what happened in the gap between the Lifestream destroying Meteor and 500 years later).

But when it comes to Nomura, he says one thing and leaves it at that for a year or so, and then when he finally opens up about that sort of thing again, he says that it never happened or that he does the complete opposite.

Square's pretty much back to front and upside down with their own words in giving fans twists and turns between hype and disappointment.

 

[Lex]

At this point I'm just crossing my fingers they'll keep the main beats of the story intact without fucking with it too much. I'm braced for wildly different pacing, extra information/ new story segments to expand certain areas, unnecessary parts cut. When it comes to the remake I'm pretty much as laid back as it could get. It's essentially a new game, go nuts.

There are just certain bits I need them to not fuck with. I will riot if they don't kill Aerith and use some bullshit reason like "we wanted fans to be surprised by this moment". It wouldn't be a surprise. It would be in trend with their poor decision making for the past 16 years.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I haven't had time to look into it thoroughly yet, though, to judge that completely.

So I went ahead and investigated this. As far as I can tell, there's nothing about it on any Japanese sites to gives us any assistance in fully determining the context, unfortunately.

That's frustrating. Going by even the articles posted at FFDReam, Finaland, etc. (i.e. the publications who were there in the roundtable session asking Nomura these questions), there's a note that some of Nomura's terminology was vague, and another that says the questions were asked in French. That means in order to get these English sentences, we had to have a question be translated from French to Japanese, then a response translated from Japanese to French -- and finally to English from French.

Not that this can't still be useful and accurate information. I just wonder if we're all focusing too much on the "no continuity" aspect of that last sentence when we should be focusing on the "for the moment" clause?

What I mean is, perhaps Nomura was just saying that it would be a poor decision to rerelease the Compilation titles with the remake because how they all fit together hasn't yet been determined. The Compilation as it exists right now hasn't had its continuity with the remake ironed out yet, even though elements from the Compilation are still going to definitely be incorporated into the remake's continuity.

I guess Nomura thinks it would create confusion for players coming in fresh to this remake and the Compilation titles that were made for the original, as there will be inevitable changes between this older continuity and what is seen in the remake.

That's what I take this to mean. I really don't think Nomura is saying they've changed their minds about incorporating elements of the Compilation. It will just be done in a manner that essentially does what many of us have been saying for a while: A new canon is being created as they go, which is what happened between each title when the Compilation was coming out anyway.

With the entire original game being remade, though, I anticipate the word "reboot" will get used a lot, with distinctions drawn by many fans between "the original universe/continuity" and "the remake universe/continuity." It may actually be fair to apply that way of thinking to it. I guess time will tell.

 

[ChipNoir]

At this point I'm prepared to look at this as "The compilation is second to the original, and the remake by the same virtue" because it's all meant to be taken in AFTER you play the original. So unless something amaze-balls comes up in the writing process that is super connected to the compilation, they're just not going to bother with it. Like a lot of us are saying; Yes, Genesis shows up in Nibelhiem, but he's an interloper that actually has nothing to do with how that story unfolds, even with the retcons; He's literally there to go "Neener Neer" at Sephiroth's moment of weakness because he's a jealous, bitter princess.

 

[ForceStealer]

I always did love Sephiroth's "You will rot," bit, admittedly

 

[ChipNoir]

I always did love Sephiroth's "You will rot," bit, admittedly

Its George Newborn. You can't not love anything he says. He made me genuinely consider buying a car from Sephiroth because of that one commercial.

 

[Tennyo]

Nomura could be just like "fuck you tabata, I'm undoing everything you did with the compilation. So BC and parts of CC get retconned

Revenge for losing Versus? Nomura did seem pretty pissy about that.

 

[ChipNoir]

Nomura could be just like "fuck you tabata, I'm undoing everything you did with the compilation. So BC and parts of CC get retconned

Revenge for losing Versus? Nomura did seem pretty pissy about that.

Except that the two have almost the same relationship that Sakaguchi had to Kitase and Nomura. Nomura's been grooming Tabata for this, and Tabata practically begged for Nomura's supervision in CC. This was a choice made by corporate.

 

[Tashasaurous]

At this point I'm just crossing my fingers they'll keep the main beats of the story intact without fucking with it too much. I'm braced for wildly different pacing, extra information/ new story segments to expand certain areas, unnecessary parts cut. When it comes to the remake I'm pretty much as laid back as it could get. It's essentially a new game, go nuts.

There are just certain bits I need them to not fuck with. I will riot if they don't kill Aerith and use some bullshit reason like "we wanted fans to be surprised by this moment". It wouldn't be a surprise. It would be in trend with their poor decision making for the past 16 years.

They'll screw something up. Remakes of anything always end up messing things from originals.

And seriously, even if I am upset with Aerith's death, I'd be so miffed if they prevent that from happening. You might as well call the Remake an "What If-Alternate Universe" game.

I haven't had time to look into it thoroughly yet, though, to judge that completely.

So I went ahead and investigated this. As far as I can tell, there's nothing about it on any Japanese sites to gives us any assistance in fully determining the context, unfortunately.

That's frustrating. Going by even the articles posted at FFDReam, Finaland, etc. (i.e. the publications who were there in the roundtable session asking Nomura these questions), there's a note that some of Nomura's terminology was vague, and another that says the questions were asked in French. That means in order to get these English sentences, we had to have a question be translated from French to Japanese, then a response translated from Japanese to French -- and finally to English from French.

Translating from French to Japanese, then back from Japanese to French, and then from French to English?

That's the stupidest way to translate anything I've ever heard. No wonder interviews are so god-plonkers confusing. What are we-chopped liver? No offense.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The interview took place at a tradeshow in Monaco, so it makes sense that the questions were asked in French.

 

[Tashasaurous]

The interview took place at a tradeshow in Monaco, so it makes sense that the questions were asked in French.

Good point. But still, it would've been easier to just translate from Japanese to French, and then translate either one into English instead of going back and fourth fifteen times before finally translating to English only once.

 

[Tennyo]

Nomura could be just like "fuck you tabata, I'm undoing everything you did with the compilation. So BC and parts of CC get retconned

Revenge for losing Versus? Nomura did seem pretty pissy about that.

Except that the two have almost the same relationship that Sakaguchi had to Kitase and Nomura. Nomura's been grooming Tabata for this, and Tabata practically begged for Nomura's supervision in CC. This was a choice made by corporate.

I was joking.

 

[Roger]

Seems like there's a few easy compromises, like a white flash before that scene like what normally happens when Cloud searches for a missing memory, and dialogue like 'Was there something else? I don't remember.'

Or else dialogue that gives a vague allusion to it without distracting from what's going on too much. They can't go into detail or else you get

Cloud: And then Genesis showed up and gave him an apple.

Aeris: The SOLDIER 1st? Isn't he dead?

Cloud: No, see, what happened was (explains plot of CC) But anyway, back to what I was saying. We got back to Nibelheim and...

Honestly, I thought the compilation fit into the OG pretty well for the most part. I'd like to see nods, but not derails.

Cloud was telling the story of who Sephiroth is, why people think he's dead, he's insane and why he needs to be stopped. You can make Genesis sound as stupid as you like, Crisis Core still made him more important to that story then the photographer, or Zangan, or Cloud's mom or mako fountains or whether anything was bought at the item shop.
Cloud recalled every detail from Zack and Sephiroth's conversation inside the Mako reactor, and while Zack, Sephiroth and Genesis were talking, Tifa and Cloud were fighting Genesis clones outside. Then Zack saved them. There's no reason for Cloud who remembers Zack's version of what happened to not recall either of those things. Or that they are not important enough as opposed to all the other inane details of their time at nibelheim. Genesis is still out there and Cloud has no reason to think otherwise.

 

[ChipNoir]

Seems like there's a few easy compromises, like a white flash before that scene like what normally happens when Cloud searches for a missing memory, and dialogue like 'Was there something else? I don't remember.'

Or else dialogue that gives a vague allusion to it without distracting from what's going on too much. They can't go into detail or else you get

Cloud: And then Genesis showed up and gave him an apple.

Aeris: The SOLDIER 1st? Isn't he dead?

Cloud: No, see, what happened was (explains plot of CC) But anyway, back to what I was saying. We got back to Nibelheim and...

Honestly, I thought the compilation fit into the OG pretty well for the most part. I'd like to see nods, but not derails.

Cloud was telling the story of who Sephiroth is, why people think he's dead, he's insane and why he needs to be stopped. You can make Genesis sound as stupid as you like, Crisis Core still made him more important to that story then the photographer, or Zangan, or Cloud's mom or mako fountains or whether anything was bought at the item shop.
Cloud recalled every detail from Zack and Sephiroth's conversation inside the Mako reactor, and while Zack, Sephiroth and Genesis were talking, Tifa and Cloud were fighting Genesis clones outside. Then Zack saved them. There's no reason for Cloud who remembers Zack's version of what happened to not recall either of those things. Or that they are not important enough as opposed to all the other inane details of their time at nibelheim. Genesis is still out there and Cloud has no reason to think otherwise.

...That photograph is kinda vital to the Mideel Mindscape plot's climax. Zangan is part of Tifa's background, and how she was remove to safety. So uh, I'm sort of doubting your definitions of inane. It sounds like you just really like Genesis and want him in for his own sakes rather than anything merit of the character, which is to say there is none. Genesis' existence is by default optional.

 

[ForceStealer]

^I will say I don't think he actually really likes Genesis. He just thinks that if the Remake is consistent with the Compilation, Genesis MUST be there.

I agree with you though.

 

[Roger]

...That photograph is kinda vital to the Mideel Mindscape plot's climax. Zangan is part of Tifa's background, and how she was remove to safety. So uh, I'm sort of doubting your definitions of inane. It sounds like you just really like Genesis and want him in for his own sakes rather than anything merit of the character, which is to say there is none. Genesis' existence is by default optional.

Those are reasons for the game to feature them instead of Genesis, not reasons for Cloud the character to decide to remember or bring them up instead of Genesis. Genesis is not part of FFVII because he's not part of FFVII, that I can get behind. Don't use Cloud's memories issues as a plot device to wuss out of not making the Compilation canon anymore.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Let me quote myself from the last time you said that a couple of days ago.

I don't think anyone is saying he necessarily had to forget, as convenient an explanation as that would be. For that matter, the original game made use of that approach endlessly, so I don't think it would be any great sin if one of us were to anyway. But again, it's not necessary that he forgot. That he has no good reason to bring it up is plenty sufficient.

 

[Roger]

Let me quote myself from the last time you said that a couple of days ago.

I don't think anyone is saying he necessarily had to forget, as convenient an explanation as that would be.

Clement Rage did bring it up as the alternative to just mentioning Genesis since you said this though.

For that matter, the original game made use of that approach endlessly, so I don't think it would be any great sin if one of us were to anyway.

But again, it's not necessary that he forgot. That he has no good reason to bring it up is plenty sufficient.

The game had reasons. Like, in story reasons. Cloud decided he didn't want to be a infantryman, he wanted to be a SOLDIER First Class to impress Tifa. So upon meeting Tifa, he forgot he was an infantryman, and replsced it with a story of Zack, a SOLDIER First Class he knew. that he witnessed fighting Genesis, one that witnessed Sephiroth go insane. in large part thanks to Genesis, during instances that Zack was around for. While Cloud and Tifa were fighting clones of Genesis outside. until Zack saved them. How and why Sephiroth is evil and dangerous and considered dead is what Cloud is trying to explain to the group. It makes sense then that he'd skimp out on details of what went down in the Mako Reactor in favor of talking about his mom and photographs to everyone?

 

[ForceStealer]

Again, the photograph has a payoff. It's crucial to the Cloud mindfuckery in the Northern Crater. Having Genesis pop up and say a bunch of stuff that was not previously mentioned and will not be mentioned again would have no such payoff and therefore lousy storytelling.

 

[Roger]

Again, the photograph has a payoff. It's crucial to the Cloud mindfuckery in the Northern Crater. Having Genesis pop up and say a bunch of stuff that was not previously mentioned and will not be mentioned again would have no such payoff and therefore lousy storytelling.

So don't make it canon then. What happened at Nibelheim was retconned several times already, not like it would be anything new, Crisis Core had a half-decent take but if it's not one worth sticking too, don't.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It probably isn't worth it, truth be told, but that's neither here nor there for me.

The photograph and even Cloud's mom are worth something. 'Cause she's Cloud's mom. She means something to him. Genesis means even less to Cloud than the nonsense he was saying in that scene would.

 

[Ite]

If we are to believe that Cloud remembered everything Zack did, then he should remember defeating Genesis as well. Why bother bringing him up if he was just Sephiroth's friend that he killed on another adventure?

 

[Lex]

Cloud doesn't remember everything Zack did though, this much is made very apparent throughout the game. He remembers bits and bobs from his own childhood and has pretty much just taken on bits of Zack's personality and combined the two (in addition to a few random Zack memories from around the time of Nibelheim).

Tifa says it best. "Things you shouldn't know that you did, things you didn't know that you should"