Yuffie & Wutai — Where does it happen?

[X-SOLDIER]

Being as Yuffie and her Wutai storyline were entirely optional in the original, I'm wondering when these events would take place, since — like with Vincent, I can't see her as being optional in the Remake.

First of all, how and where do you meet her? She's a random encounter, so it makes sense that they could set up an encounter of sorts with her en-route to somewhere like Fort Condor, but once she's IN your party is where it gets a little more complicated.

The Material Thief stuff is any time between the completion of Rocket Town and the end of 2nd disc, which leaves a pretty significant span of time to put it in — perhaps most interestingly, this also means that you can do those missions in the OG with or without Aerith in your party, and also before and after Meteor appear in the sky — thus changing folks' dialogue.

In fact, with Wutai no longer being optional, it potentially has a lot of value to the story, what with the war being a more significant piece of anti-Shinra sentiment (much like you get in Cosmo Canyon). On top of that, there's more opportunity for information about Sephiroth's history to get dragged up to get you feeling even more ways about him prior to the confrontation at the Temple of the Ancients and Forgotten City (although the OG encourages you to do it after that, what with all the Materia-less weapons being in there).


Personally, I feel like there's huge merit to placing it before Temple of the Ancients. Not only do we meet the Turks off-duty prior to encountering an injured Tseng outside the temple, but having Aerith and Tifa present for the end of Don Corner only seems right from a narrative follow-up. Additionally, it fits in with the thematic narratives of Cosmo Canyon & Rocket Town.

To that point, while Cid joins your party late, I'm not sure that there's any reason that Yuffie ought to join your party earlier, or if (like with Rocket Town), you use the Wutai incident as a catalyst to having her join your party when her father asks you to take her with you.


Either way — thoughts and opinions about where all this could fit and how you'd like to see it work in the Remake?





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[Ghost X]

I think the Wutai storyline (where she steals your materia, etc) should probably happen as early as possible in the story, namely after you acquire the Tiny Bronco in the OG, so a little redemption could be achieved by the end of the story. However, if it occurs the latest possible time, I suppose that could add tension, which could also be beneficial? . Not sure that would make sense though ("Haha, I stole all your materia... with meteor in the sky threatening to kill us all ").

As for when she joins the party, maybe she could end up being a member of the party that comes and goes, perhaps being a nuisance (taking random materia each time ), until later in the story when joining permanently (eg: when her father asks her to).

 

[Tetsujin]

I'd like Wutai to remain optional so you can do it whenever you want but no clue if this remains possible with the multi-part approach.
It's great as side content because it's not really relevant to the main story but it's still meaty content with character stuff and humorous shenanigans and some rewards. It's the type of side content RPGs should strive for these days rather than having checklists of boring chores a la go kill 5 rats, collect 20 shrooms etc

As for Yuffie, it's 99.9% likely she's not optional and I'm okay with that though I think it might be neat if the mandatory recruitment happens a bit later (maybe around Rocket Town or after) but an optional early-game recruitment is possible like in the OG from around Kalm/Mythril Mines onwards.
That way you could have her be non-optional yet still include a "secret bonus" element as a throwback to how you get her in the original game.

 

[Ite]

Like Quina! I didn't know I could get her on disc 1, but she's non-optional on Disc 2.

 

[OWA-2]

since — like with Vincent, I can't see her as being optional in the Remake.

Why not?

 

[Tetsujin]

I'd say it's because having Vincent and/or Yuffie be entirely optional means having to have multiple versions of cutscenes that either feature both, one or none of them for the rest of the story which was easier in the old days when it was simple animations and dialogue via text boxes but would be a lot more effort and require more planning when you have to consider voice acting, motion capture etc for modern cinematic storytelling.

Them joining is considered canon anyway and making them non-optional would allow them to be given a bit more active involvement in the story/cutscenes that they didn't have originally.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Them joining is considered canon anyway and making them non-optional would allow them to be given a bit more active involvement in the story/cutscenes that they didn't have originally.

Mostly the fact that her & Vincent joining the party are canon for the story, so there's really no good reason to make them optional if they're retelling the story.

There's also the fact that the Remake seems to be putting a lot of detail into controlling the other characters and such in combat, and that means that an optional character would have a LOT of work put into it to potentially be completely missable – not to mention that if they're required, they could have little sections where you have to use them and they could take advantage of particular abilities (Yuffie being a Ninja & Vincent's transformation).


From a different point of storytelling, Wutai actually has a LOT to offer to the main story. There's the added context both for the Turks' loyalties (which changes a LOT about how you feel about the Tseng scene in the Temple), which is good reason to having it early. The follow-up to Don Corneo's demise that deserves to be a part of the main story what with his introduction being mandatory. AND there's what the aftermath of the war looks like with Wutai being reduced to a tourist trap from a once proud society. Much like Gongaga & Corel, this gives a wider perspective to the evils of Shinra's past coinciding with their present, and could potentially be a place to spotlight what things were like back when Sephiroth was still seen as a "hero" to some.






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[Ite]

Gongaga is also optional content, though. They can't make all the quality side-content mandatory. And we don't need CG cutscenes anymore, the Mass Effect trilogy did just fine and that started almost a decade ago. Non-rendered cutscenes have far surpassed the pre-rendered FMVs of the PS1 era.

 

[ChipNoir]

I don't really see the point in putting in hidden/skipable story. In this day and age, few people care about rooting out secrets like that.

 

[JBedford]

^With the amount of open world games being released nowadays I feel like that can't be true.

 

[Tetsujin]

I don't really see the point in putting in hidden/skipable story. In this day and age, few people care about rooting out secrets like that.

Meanwhile, in Breath of the Wild...

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Gongaga is also optional content, though.

I mean... the game does literally tell you to go there after Gold Saucer in the classic, "blue text for important destination" text and everything:

It's got the introduction to the Huge Materia plot with Scarlett that's a big part of the game in 2nd Disc, as well as the second confrontation with the Turks. So while you could technically CALL it "optional content" it's directly connected into the progression and storytelling of the original game, so I hardly think that it qualifies.


Not to mention, within the Remake, Vincent can easily get all of his character development & backstory from the existing Hojo interactions and other places as a canon party member. Yuffie really needs the Wutai arc to really feel like a fully developed member of Cloud & Co. – especially with the speech that her dad gives after you best him. Plus, this is exactly the sort of character-specific quest development that Nanaki gets in Cosmo Canyon so I don't really see any reason NOT to include it since she's a canon party member.

From a strict storytelling perspective the stuff with Gi Nattak & Seto are no more mandatory than Yuffie's story with the sole exception that Yuffie was implemented as an optional character and Red XIII wasn't.

They can't make all the quality side-content mandatory.

The Ancient Forest, Weapons, Chocobo Breeding, etc. are the sorts of things that I consider "quality side content" that aren't at all likely to be mandatory.

And we don't need CG cutscenes anymore, the Mass Effect trilogy did just fine and that started almost a decade ago. Non-rendered cutscenes have far surpassed the pre-rendered FMVs of the PS1 era.

Well, yes. Non-rendered cutscenes HAVE far surpassed the pre-rendered FMVs of the PS1 era, but not the pre-rendered cutscenes of the CURRENT era. There are definitely always places for pre-rendered cutscenes, and FFXV is proof of that and I'd even say that the Gameplay & Cinematic Remake trailers are already evident of that.





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[Clement Rage]

For what it's worth I did entirely miss Gongaga my first playthrough.

Yuffie's probably not going to be optional, but Wutai? Honestly, I think it could be better left as an option, it adds to the worldbuilding a bit when things are happening that are not 100pc mandatory, feels less 'scripted' that this is how events play out.

Nanaki's goal when you first meet him is to go home, he needs what happens in Cosmo Canyon to give him a reason to stay in the party past it. There's also development for Aeris, Barret, and Tifa in that town. Wutai, not so much.

 

[jazzflower92]

I totally think that Wutai should get more emphasis in the remake.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I totally think that Wutai should get more emphasis in the remake.

It could even while still being optional, though.

I don't know what I'd prefer to see come out of all this.

 

[jazzflower92]

I totally think that Wutai should get more emphasis in the remake.

It could even while still being optional, though.

I don't know what I'd prefer to see come out of all this.

It's been emphasized, but it never really gets anything really expanded in other material.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

For what it's worth I did entirely miss Gongaga my first playthrough.

Yuffie's probably not going to be optional, but Wutai? Honestly, I think it could be better left as an option, it adds to the worldbuilding a bit when things are happening that are not 100pc mandatory, feels less 'scripted' that this is how events play out.

Nanaki's goal when you first meet him is to go home, he needs what happens in Cosmo Canyon to give him a reason to stay in the party past it. There's also development for Aeris, Barret, and Tifa in that town. Wutai, not so much.

If you treat Yuffie like a canon party member rather than an optional party member, her story in Wutai holds equally as much weight in terms of the overall narrative that Cosmo Canyon holds for Nanaki and the party.

She joins up with you for the sole purpose of obtaining Materia to try to help out her hometown that's been reduced into a tourist trap after the war with Shinra, and she only wants to help to restore it to its former glory. When she's close enough to attempt that, she does (much like Nanaki leaving to stay in his own hometown). It's only after Don Corneo captures her, and you help her out that she acquiesces and gives the Materia back, and then only after going up against the other tower guards and her own Father (much like Red journeying through the Caves of the Gi to learn the fate of his Father) does she get a greater sense of purpose and being a sort of leader for her people and does Godo request that Cloud allow her to remain with the party.

The whole conclusion of the Don Corneo arc serves as a satisfying development for Aeris, Tifa, & Cloud overcoming one unresolved arc they started together – and also builds their connection with Yuffie. On top of that, it opens up a different relationship for the party with the Turks on vacation, by placing Elena in danger and showing them actively ignoring you and juxtaposed against Don Corneo being a complete piece of garbage. While that also serves as development for them (and they're important from a Compilation perspective), but importantly, it helps to establish a sort of moral ambiguity of Shinra employees rather than the pure, unforgivable, evil mass-murderers they'd been before. That's important to help provide a bit more depth to Cait Sith's upcoming betrayal and re-joining as a double agent, and also Tseng's severe injury to start to paint a different picture where you seemingly team up with Rufus in the North Crater to take on Sephiroth when Cloud goes crazy (before the whole Tifa public execution to save face ruins all of that all over again).

So yeah.

I think when you look at Yuffie as being a party member with as much canon status in the group as Nanaki, it's clear that Wutai has a LOT of content that applies to her, the team, and also the story that, for the Remake, adds in a ton to the coherence and development equivalent to what they get in Cosmo Canyon, and that's why I think that, like Yuffie herself, it's not the sort of thing that should be optional content when they're retelling the story.



Also, FWIW all of this is coming from seeing all the story again while having my girlfriend play FFVII the first time, and looking at the developments that she gets a big amount of story and context from. Her reaching Gongaga was a big part that she latched on to (I had her bring Tifa & Aeris into town), and we put off Wutai until just before the Underwater Reactor, and this is a lot of feedback from the order of things for how things feel doing it in a place that feels like very after-the-fact, and why I don't think it works as optional content to be done sort of whenever.





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[The Twilight Mexican]

I totally think that Wutai should get more emphasis in the remake.

It could even while still being optional, though.

I don't know what I'd prefer to see come out of all this.

It's been emphasized, but it never really gets anything really expanded in other material.

I said it could get expanded emphasis even while the sidequests there remain sidequests.

 

[Flare]

I like the idea of Wutai being part of the main story, especially if Yuffie isn't optional anymore. However I think some stuff in Wutai itself should still be optional, such as the whole Pagoda side quest. There's some good stuff with her dad in that I think, but it's totally optional.

Also I agree on wanting more story stuff as optional content and side quests in the Remake. Ditch the fetch quests and give us some actual awesome secret content.
Like Lucrecia's cave, would love for that to remain optional I think.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

FFXV has demonstrated that valuable world building and characterization can be relegated to sidequests without harming the experience for anyone except gamers who rush to have the first "complete" Let's Play up on YouTube, so I've personally got no problem with FFVIIR doing the same thing provided stuff that was mandatory in the original game remains mandatory this go round.

Hell, even in the original game, Gast's tapes at Icicle Inn and the flashback of Zack and Cloud's escape from the Shinra Manor basement were optional -- and both of those were absolutely indispensable to the plot and world building.

 

[hian]

FFXV has demonstrated that valuable world building and characterization can be relegated to sidequests without harming the experience for anyone except gamers who rush to have the first "complete" Let's Play up on YouTube, so I've personally got no problem with FFVIIR doing the same thing provided stuff that was mandatory in the original game remains mandatory this go round.

FFXV featured valuable world-building and characterization?
On a serious note though FFXV felt like the most incomplete and mechanically confused game I've played in recent memory. I seriously hope FFVII takes nothing from that game, except lessons in what not to do.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I like the idea of Wutai being part of the main story, especially if Yuffie isn't optional anymore. However I think some stuff in Wutai itself should still be optional, such as the whole Pagoda side quest. There's some good stuff with her dad in that I think, but it's totally optional.

Also I agree on wanting more story stuff as optional content and side quests in the Remake. Ditch the fetch quests and give us some actual awesome secret content.
Like Lucrecia's cave, would love for that to remain optional I think.

I think that so long as we get some hints about Vincent & Hojo's connection outside of just wandering into that cave, I'd be more than happy with that. I am a big fan of both Ultimate Weapons and Final Limit breaks being attached to sidequests of sorts that involve story-auxiliary character-specific motivation. (I find Red XIII's being attached to the Lost Number battle being really weird).

Insofar as Yuffie, I think that there is really solid stuff there, but I do concede that the Pagoda could be optional as compared to the main Materia Thief / Don Corneo bit, since it does fall into the Character-specific-and-not-story-specific progression that also comes with a big reward.


Insofar as the FFXV connection: I think that the camping cut scenes qualify as that sort of side-quest with minor rewards, but character-specific building stuff not directly something that is important to the story.





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[Tetsujin]

FFXV has demonstrated that valuable world building and characterization can be relegated to sidequests

Oh wow, disagreeing so hard with this.

I mean I agree with this:

valuable world building and characterization can be relegated to sidequests

but not with this:

FFXV has demonstrated

 

[X-SOLDIER]

FFXV has demonstrated that valuable world building and characterization can be relegated to sidequests

Spoiler

If you count the camping events as sidequests, they qualify as characterization done fairly well relegated to side-quests. Insofar as world building, there're things with Vyv & Dino that actually end up getting you some interesting bits of information on the history of the world and the general populace looking at the approaching descent into darkness, respectively despite their general nature as "go and fetch" quests.

Whether or not that was the ideal location for those places, YMMV.

Regardless!

My tl;dr at this point is:
• As a canon character, Yuffie's Materia Thief stuff should be a part of the main story.
• The Pagoda works as optional character development for her as a side/optional quest.




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[Flare]

I am a big fan of both Ultimate Weapons and Final Limit breaks being attached to sidequests of sorts that involve story-auxiliary character-specific motivation. (I find Red XIII's being attached to the Lost Number battle being really weird).

Insofar as Yuffie, I think that there is really solid stuff there, but I do concede that the Pagoda could be optional as compared to the main Materia Thief / Don Corneo bit, since it does fall into the Character-specific-and-not-story-specific progression that also comes with a big reward.

Oh yeah, I love the idea of having the Ultimate Weapon/Limit Break stuff being some cool story sidequests, not having to be part of the main story but hopefully some nice story moments regardless.
As for Nanaki's being attached to Lost Number, I wondered if it was done that way because of the original ideas of having more of his race as Hojo experiments, and since it was scrapped, the weapon (it was a weapon, right?) was attached to Lost Number instead. Maybe.

Also sorry, I can't actually add anything relevant to the actual thread title, I've only played VII twice and can't accurately think of a good place to put the Wutai stuff.