SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
That guy is approaching jairus level deranged and pathetic.
I am personally confused and also amused by his repeated statement that Cloud having sex with Tifa would make Cloud a womanizer.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
That's the most confusing thing; Cloud would be a womanizer because he has sex with the only girl he's ever loved romantically and done anything romantic with? The PR literally had this:


loyal.jpg

and this:

2KGils.png

Literally SE told you he's loyal and ready to go LENGTHS to become special to Tifa.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
You got me going. You're oh so charming. But I can't do it. You womanizer.

People sure are worried about these “branching” scenes they keep dismissing. Or maybe they think Cloud will have already lost his virginity prior to the boat. How do you say it? 女 の 敵 ?
 

Wanderer

Lv. 25 Adventurer
That guy is approaching jairus level deranged and pathetic.
I am personally confused and also amused by his repeated statement that Cloud having sex with Tifa would make Cloud a womanizer.
What happened to that guy anyway last I heard of him was that he apologized for harassing Nojima
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
That's the most confusing thing; Cloud would be a womanizer because he has sex with the only girl he's ever loved romantically and done anything romantic with? The PR literally had this:


View attachment 17324

and this:

View attachment 17323

Literally SE told you he's loyal and ready to go LENGTHS to become special to Tifa.
It just goes to show that their default mode is to assume Cloud I guess belongs to Aerith,

Only if you think Cloud's going to moan Aerith's name in Tifa's ear, lmao.

(I have actually seen this on twitter.)
Yep. Cali's the one who put that one out into the world. She's been a shit for close to two decades now. I rememeber when she used to post here and I had to ban new alt accounts on the daily. I assume she's just as zealous with saying shitty things on alts now as back then.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
That account is a troll, not CA afaik. Obvious sh*tst*rrer. Script's already written and devs aren't going to change anything for chaos gremlins.

Hamaguchi's comments reassured me also kind of ironically I guess, together with less mini games (though I am assuming more story time and character building) They are not going to rush with Aerith and Zack. Less mini games and platting the game taking less to achieve apparently for part 3 makes me kind of sad but fair enough if it leads to more story, character building, lore and the likes.

I don't think it's necessary to hide that I want an Aerith kiss. That I enjoyed what I got with CA, but would have loved a kiss too? Both things can be true that I genuinely enjoyed their GS date and the homage to their OG Saucer date as well as their hand holding and full body hug in the final chapters, etc, but was still tantalised for more. I can say I enjoy the intimacy of CA (without taking away CT) and that I personally feel I didn't get that from ZA (because it is a young innocent love with young innocent things) and would expect from them as adults.

That said I'm not saying there will be no CA. Cloud will respect their time together, he cherishes her. There might be from OG when Cloud says "I remember Aerith a lot" and we might get to see how/why he remembers her this time from Remake/Rebirth, like Rebirth has continuity for "Language of Flowers", Aerith's resolution, and her GS date (Aerith path), etc. The scene where Cloud talks to the party about Aerith's smile being frozen like that and them releasing her prayer. Jenova might use Aerith against Cloud, etc. The hand reach scene has continuity with AC so they might use it. Point is doubtful content creators will be left dry.

I don't want CAs to be depressed/miserable. That's the last thing I want. Of course I want everyone to look forward to the game. I'm not trying to be a doomer or anything, just exploring different situations and working stuff through my system personally. Well I could be flat out wrong about everything, I would own to it. However if anyone says anything like I'm not a real fan of Aerith or I never cared about CA I will come for that (yes I have seen some ... things) 👌😋
 
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Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I hope this doesn't feel like I'm singling you out but this bothered me a bit because I think these kinds of phrases contribute to muddying and perpetuating debates about shipping (which is kind of what LTDs are about, at their core). So my apologies in advance but I'll use your comment as a springboard. 😅
I didn't mean to imply that anyone should switch their preferred ship. I was just voicing my ruminations on how certain shippers may react if part 3 goes the way of the OG.

I see so many people on social media, Reddit, etc. utterly convinced that part 3 is going to have some romantic CA ending (optional or not), even people who demonstrate knowledge of the OG story and compilation. I'm curious about what they're going to do if SE doesn't give them what they want.

Of course, people are free to ship whatever they prefer. And SE might end up doing a CA ending of some kind, even though I think that would wreck the story.

All SE has to do is the bare minimum: That is, do justice to the Lifestream and UTH scenes, for CT to be cemented as canon to the fans. And I say bare minimum because they will probably add some additional moments to drive the point further like they've done in Remake and Rebirth. If these scenes happen and Cloud ends up with a woman who is not Tifa, it would provoke feelings of whiplash

A CA ending would depend on a complete rewrite of the story, which seems already too late since we're on part 3 and Aerith appears dead in some sense.

But on the other hand, it's reasonable for CA shippers to feel insulted when their ship is called an 'illusion' or 'red herring', or they should 'enjoy their fanon'. No one should feel bad for getting invested in a ship that SE themselves pushes to an extent. No one should feel betrayed by getting invested in CA.

Disappointment on either (or both) sides seems inevitable. Maybe I'm worrying too much.
 

frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
Skilganon said:
I see so many people on social media, Reddit, etc. utterly convinced that part 3 is going to have some romantic CA ending (optional or not), even people who demonstrate knowledge of the OG story and compilation. I'm curious about what they're going to do if SE doesn't give them what they want.
People see what they want to see, and they can be incredibly short sighted and/or new to the series without looking at what the whole compilation intends to say. Fantasies =/= fact.

Post Remake people were saying
a) Tifa would die because Sephiroth stabbed her in the Shinra VR and she would take Aerith's place for shock value. They were convinced that scene was foreshadowing cos Barret got stabbed in the VR, then he did get stabbed but was saved by the whispers. Some parties were hell bent that for shock value, Tifa should freaking JUMP infront of Aerith at the very last moment to protect her in Temple of the Ancients, giving Cloud and Aerith the opportunity to finally live out their dreams to be togther

You can actually see this sentiment of "Tifa dying" actually flitted across the devs minds when they speculated if they should end Rebirth in Gongaga. Thank God someone on the team had brain cells to rub together to know that would piss people off more than pique their interest

b) That the entire of Rebirth would have Zack/Cloud like Laguna/Squall - where you played two alternate realities with equal time, which I wasn't against, but ALL that marketing around Zack was for nothing for him to die again and again and...remain dead.

c) That Rebirth and Part 3 were sequels, the story would deviate wildly and we can expect a whole new game since fate was destroyed.

As you can tell, none of the above came to pass and the devs had said only like, 10 times already: MAIN STORY BEATS REMAIN THE SAME.

The same theory crafters were actually fans of the original and were wrong again and again, yet continue to put up bat shit theories for part 3 and will be wrong...again. And they won't leave, just complain 🤷‍♀️

Ryeleigh said:
The LTDs are usually about: stop lying about canon. Like, that's basically it, lol. People don't have to stop having fun with fanon, headcanons, and stuff they plain made up but that should be left to the realm of fan fics instead of discussions of what's actually in the text. People can ship CA, they can dislike ZA (which also applies the other way around, of course), but stop lying about their canonicity, lol. And you know, stop the harassment of creators and other fans, etc etc etc. Shipping is supposed to be fun, not a cult.
This! It's not about not allowing you to enjoy what you want to enjoy - it's that because so many people still want to cling on to Aerith living and having her "future" with Cloud, you're no longer allowed to discuss a key, if not THE KEY story beat that even devs had said is their favourite - Cloud regains his sanity in the lifestream thanks to Tifa, and at the end, everyone goes to spend time with their loved ones - and Cloud and Tifa spend that time together.

Even anticipating what the lifestream scene would look like, brings up all the theorists who are like "WHAT IF AERITH WAS THE ONE TO PUT CLOUD'S BRAIN TOGETHER???

To me that's as stupid as saying, "I bet SEYMOUR could be the one to comfort Yuna in Macalania lake" "What if Squall decided to go fetch QUISTIS from space?" "RAVUS will push Luna away from Ardyn, so now Noctis and Luna can live together"

Shipping is fine, just don't deny the freakin' plot
 
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Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I didn't mean to imply that anyone should switch their preferred ship. I was just voicing my ruminations on how certain shippers may react if part 3 goes the way of the OG.

I see so many people on social media, Reddit, etc. utterly convinced that part 3 is going to have some romantic CA ending (optional or not), even people who demonstrate knowledge of the OG story and compilation. I'm curious about what they're going to do if SE doesn't give them what they want.

Of course, people are free to ship whatever they prefer. And SE might end up doing a CA ending of some kind, even though I think that would wreck the story.

All SE has to do is the bare minimum: That is, do justice to the Lifestream and UTH scenes, for CT to be cemented as canon to the fans. And I say bare minimum because they will probably add some additional moments to drive the point further like they've done in Remake and Rebirth. If these scenes happen and Cloud ends up with a woman who is not Tifa, it would provoke feelings of whiplash

A CA ending would depend on a complete rewrite of the story, which seems already too late since we're on part 3 and Aerith appears dead in some sense.

But on the other hand, it's reasonable for CA shippers to feel insulted when their ship is called an 'illusion' or 'red herring', or they should 'enjoy their fanon'. No one should feel bad for getting invested in a ship that SE themselves pushes to an extent. No one should feel betrayed by getting invested in CA.

Disappointment on either (or both) sides seems inevitable. Maybe I'm worrying too much.
I didn't think you meant anything with it. 😅 It's just when people see offhand comments about switching ships or being okay with a ship they may not like, or that they're stupid or delusional or what else for liking the ship they like, it causes an instant negative reaction that just entrenches them even more because they feel defensive. Like they have to justify their ship and if the ship doesn't have a lot going for it, it usually leads to some really unhinged takes, lol. For example, Cloud moaning Aerith's name in Tifa's ear. I MEAN, in what universe do people think that would actually happen in a Final Fantasy game?

As for the rest, I honestly can't relate. I mean, I've never "shipped" canon couples because if I like a canon couple, it usually means I like the canon story so I don't "need" to ship them. So to me shipping has always been fanon. (A reminder! fanon isn't a dirty word, lol.)

And as I've also consumed a fair share of harem manga or teenage romance drama, I also know that fan service doesn't mean that one's ship will be canon. Even kisses or sex don't mean that one's ship will be canon. No amount of fan service or romance/sexual shenanigans with all the characters will mean that the author is obliged to make everyone's ships canon. It doesn't mean that anyone was robbed of their stamp of validation canon.

Like, once someone starts approaching shipping as proving the ship's canonicity and that if they just put together enough secret clues it means the creators are obliged to make it canon, then obviously they're going to be disappointed.* There's really no other way to put this but the really extreme shippers -- the ones who are absolutely convinced that their ship will be canon even against a basic surface reading to the contrary -- are basically just Flat Earth conspiracy theorists and there's nothing creators can do about them because at that point it isn't about the ship or shipping.

As for non-canon shippers, everything they liked about the ship will still be there, lol. It just means that they can build it into something more, something they want to see, and often that's more fun than having it handed to you, lol.


*And even sans shipping, sometimes stories will just utterly disappoint you and the healthy thing to do is moving on. .....or rewriting the thing as fanfiction, lol.
 

Pasuwado

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Pasuwado
All SE has to do is the bare minimum: That is, do justice to the Lifestream and UTH scenes, for CT to be cemented as canon to the fans. And I say bare minimum because they will probably add some additional moments to drive the point further like they've done in Remake and Rebirth. If these scenes happen and Cloud ends up with a woman who is not Tifa, it would provoke feelings of whiplash
I agree, I’m particularly looking forward to seeing Tifa taking care of Cloud while he’s in a coma. Anyone who has ever seen someone care for a loved one knows how meaningful that is.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
That account is a troll, not CA afaik. Obvious sh*tst*rrer.
Yeah, we suspect them to have paraded as a CT prior on another account, it was the same kind of spin before.

As for CAs, if my theory of the LSS is correct (kiss + confession, with both that kind of already happened in Rebirth I feel this is likely), then you have to understand that the CA relationship is going to be widely reframed as pure friendship, especially with ZA needing its conclusion too. Aerith is dear to Cloud but SE will absolutely not have him be in love with her and Tifa at the same time, as I said they have already been weighing in heavily in Rebirth, having Cloud clearly telling her she was a nakama after the dream date. As I said multiple times, CA has reached its conclusion in Rebirth - I don't want to down on you, but rather don't hope for too much because you're probably not going to get much, and better be happy with the little things rather than expect big things.
As for the rest, I honestly can't relate. I mean, I've never "shipped" canon couples because if I like a canon couple, it usually means I like the canon story so I don't "need" to ship them. So to me shipping has always been fanon. (A reminder! fanon isn't a dirty word, lol.)
Shipping is not that though, that is just understanding the canon story. Shipping is about doing fan stuff and enjoying fan stuff around a pair (writing, drawing, but also theorising, promoting it, etc.). The ship may be canon or not, it doesn't matter.
I agree, I’m particularly looking forward to seeing Tifa taking care of Cloud while he’s in a coma. Anyone who has ever seen someone care for a loved one knows how meaningful that is.
That scene will be heartbreaking, I'm sure. Especially with the nurse explaining how much she must love him and how she is going to break down because taking care of him is all she's been doing (;_; )
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Shipping is not that though, that is just understanding the canon story. Shipping is about doing fan stuff and enjoying fan stuff around a pair (writing, drawing, but also theorising, promoting it, etc.). The ship may be canon or not, it doesn't matter.
I think we may have said the same thing? ^^; I meant that if I like a canon pairing, I like the canon story so I don't need to do any of the fan stuff which usually comes with shipping. I'll just re-watch/play/read the original story. :) Which is why my ships have always been fanon. (Not that I'm sure if I was clearer with this one either, lol.)

That scene will be heartbreaking, I'm sure. Especially with the nurse explaining how much she must love him and how she is going to break down because taking care of him is all she's been doing (;_; )
That's going to hit so hard with Re-trilogy's graphics and voice acting.
 

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
Shipping is fine, just don't deny the freakin' plot
I think you over-estimate peoples' ability to discern interpretation from plot summary.

Take, for example, the claim that Tifa bullied Cloud when they were kids. This is built on a poor translation from the lifestream sequence in the OG, in which Cloud says, "You wouldn't let me in to the group." There has been acrimonious discussion ever since about whether Cloud meant Tifa specifically or the group collectively.

A lot of people then back up this claim by citing how Cloud was excluded from Avalanche before the Reactor 5 mission in Remake, that Tifa didn't speak up for him when Barret left him out. Nevermind that Cloud excluded himself in many ways, this is seen as proof that Tifa doesn't really understand him.

You could call this a lie about the plot. But I think the plot is vague enough to allow certain interpretations like this to seem reasonable, especially the original OG english translation.

If the people you complain about were somehow forced to see the plot the same way you do, glean the same meaning from events, they would just become clotis. For many shippers, their ship adds to their understanding of the plot.

As great as the life stream sequence is, there are many fans out there who didn't understand its meaning, or do and want it to be different. It's similar to people talking about having different Highwind scenes for different characters. Like, in what world would Vincent, Barret, or Cid stay with Cloud when they each have their own loved ones they want to stay with? Cloud and Tifa staying together has significance because they are each other's loved one.

The people who say these things don't look at these scenes in the same way. Characters can just be swapped around to "satisfy everyone"
 
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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I mean, it is a lie about the plot. There is no reasonable "Evil Tifa" interpretation, not in OG and certainly not in ReTrilogy. The plot isn't vague about that at all.

You can make anything sound reasonable by being selective with the details. These aren't good faith misinterpretations. It's not media illiteracy when they move the goalposts instead of admitting their theory was wrong.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Any interpretation that hinges on mistranslation isn’t an interpretation. It’s just wrong.

Especially now. The dialogue in the OG that is mistranslated is now widely known to be wrong. So anyone still clinging to it… is just wrong and I don’t take them seriously.

Just like the people that can’t let go of the name Aeris.
 

lyingbanana

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
A banana
I found this video of someone reacting to game couples and Cloud/Tifa, Cloud/Aerith are in it.
FF7 starts at 8:20
In the comments you will find the usual retorts.

But I find interesting something she says after watching Cloud and Tifa talk in Gongaga
"...all of these people have incredible mandates, like they have to save the world, they are never allowed to have these moments where they can doubt themselves, be vulnerable or question the mission. And a romantic interlude actually gives incredible depth to these characters because they are then able to express their own doubt, they are able to express their own desire. And the romantic element gives them a chance to be incredibly vulnerable, and they are being pulled into a deeper level of humanity by using that subplot."

This is what they did with Cloud in the retrilogy, he changes through his interactions with all characters, but they left his vulnerability to be shown with Tifa.

Now to bring this into the love triangle: in Cloud and Aerith's interactions it is her being vulnerable to Cloud and him reassuring her in some way, but there is no scene where Cloud confides in Aerith the same way he does Tifa. His most vulnerable speech is in Gongaga, the near kiss doesnt even matter to see that its him expressing something he doesnt show anyone else. Now to be fair, Aerith reassures Cloud but it is somewhat portrayed as her knowing by intuition, there is no scene where he vocalize his fears to her.

Edited to fix typos
 
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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
Tifa's chemistry with Cloud is unreal. Like, their body language is the state of the art that game developers should study. And Britt Baron deserves an award for the way she makes her voice tremble. Gongaga is probably their best scene yet, but the one in Cloud's apartment in Remake is my favorite.

Cloud and Aerith have good chemistry, I just feel like it's overshadowed. They have better scenes than the water tower, though it's still fairly representative of the pattern they tend to follow. Agree that they don't let themselves be as vulnerable around each other as Cloud and Tifa do. I can't picture Aerith letting herself cry in Cloud's arms, because she's way too protective of him.

That scene with Triss and Geralt was ass. They should have gone with him catching her falling from the fountain. The romance in that game aged poorly in general though.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Tifa's chemistry with Cloud is unreal. Like, their body language is the state of the art that game developers should study. And Britt Baron deserves an award for the way she makes her voice tremble. Gongaga is probably their best scene yet, but the one in Cloud's apartment in Remake is my favorite.

Cloud and Aerith have good chemistry, I just feel like it's overshadowed. They have better scenes than the water tower, though it's still fairly representative of the pattern they tend to follow. Agree that they don't let themselves be as vulnerable around each other as Cloud and Tifa do. I can't picture Aerith letting herself cry in Cloud's arms, because she's way too protective of him.

That scene with Triss and Geralt was ass. They should have gone with him catching her falling from the fountain. The romance in that game aged poorly in general though.
Part of the problem there was Triss being a romantic option was added for the games, as he was always interested in Yen in the books (not that they didn't both sleep around) and CDPR sort of realized they fucked up pushing her for the first two games when they brought Yen back for 3, given their entire concept was their games were a post- novel continuation of the story.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
You can make anything sound reasonable by being selective with the details. These aren't good faith misinterpretations. It's not media illiteracy when they move the goalposts instead of admitting their theory was wrong.

All of this, oh my goodness. Like, it's a huge key component. Between being deadass tired and wanting to be a fair person—I try to be more easy on people and their ability to interpret, even if it is wrong factually. To be able to just say "Oh you just misunderstood it, you good". But, the absolute force that is interpretation is such a goober, and makes it complicated.

An interpretation is, at it's core, an explanation through understanding. So, really, it's very easy for it to be anything and everything. Two people can even agree on an interpretation, but have nuances in what they understand fully, which then creates division. There are interpretations that are shaped by relevant information, and then those that are shaped by, well, everything else. These two approaches can blend (i.e. subtext recognition), or not, and absolutely to what you said, sometimes this is simply from a place of personal selection and isolation. You can mold an interpretation to sound reasonable and analytical, but this and being wrong after the fact aren't mutually exclusive. Some people don't want to hear it, but fans are more alike in this regard than they think, even "rival" shippers. Certain individuals spend a lot of time being pissed at each other, when the other is doing something that they too will do for other ships. Cloti and Clerith alike want truths to be established, but a lot don't recognize the nature of interpretation enough, and if they did, maybe they'd go easier on each other.

From my experience, out of all types of FF7 fans, Cloti shippers/supporters generally tend to be the most "by the book, don't use opinion over fact" preachers, though admittedly still with interpretations that are a bit extra, as long as it's congruent with the facts. (this can be complicated too) These types are more mad about HOW Clerith fans are shipping, right? However, that switch up of "listen to the devs" to "the devs are lying" can happen real fast with proper motivation. And not gonna lie, happens a lot with homosexual ships. On one hand, I get it because it's for the good fight of representation, but on the other, there's too much other things being sacrificed unnecessarily. I also don't like hypocrisy. Funny enough for both Sora/Riku and Fang/Vanille ships—I've had conversations with Cloti fans who ship them where, conveniently, prioritizing an interpretation that conflicts with information is more acceptable than that of one that is shaped by said information. Because now, they believe their interpretation is correct, just like how Clerith fans felt this way for what they wanted to prioritize to understand the game. "Okay yeah, but THIS is different—".

Is it though?

1733683954779.png

Theory crafting bears fruit to the same goober activity. Sora/Riku fans were goobin' it up on Twitter with the same thing recently. Straight up: "Ultimania information isn't canon, but the Soriku theory is" reasoning, which ironically enough comes from a theory called "The Soriku Ultimania". And crazy how some of these were Cloti fans—"by the book" Cloti fans, mind you. What happened. It's not even a conspiracy—it's just VERY easy for people to have interpretations that aren't shaped by information or universally accepted logic—even if the result is an understanding that directly conflicts with said information. And it can sound reasonable as an isolated, selective thing, just like how it's reasonable for Clerith fans to see Cloud and Aerith the way they do, but context gives more than what people are willing to let it give, and so what can be established as fact vs. opinion is sacrificed.

Which to be fair, "information says that, BUT this scene shows this", could be justified—this decided by reasonable logic, hopefully. Interpretations like this can range from actually pointing out literal contradictions—to just being no, the information isn't conflicting, and people just don't understand how it applies. Now, which one is a misinterpretation, in retrospect to fandom recognition, falls on what individual people decide is true, and people are complicated, can lie, and have motivations outside of seeking truths that are beyond their own personal wishes. On the surface, Cloti fans have it easier in this scenario because their ship happens to align with the facts, but even the more sour ones have moments (about FF7 or outside) where they misinterpret things for the sake of their own goals.
 

Skilganon

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tim
I have a question to ask: What do you guys think the developers want players to get out of the CA relationship? What do you think the developers themselves get out of it? (I don't mean to ask this as a way of dismissing the relationship itself).

I see myself as somewhat neutral about CA. There's romance and cute moments, but also an air of melancholy hangs over them, especially as the story nears the end of Rebirth. I particularly found the CA GS date to be pretty sad, mostly because Cloud appears so unaware of what Aerith is attempting to discuss. I also found the dream date to be profoundly sad for similar reasons. Cloud doesn't acknowledge her attempts to find the real him and has no idea she's preparing to die. He gets some idea when she pushes him through the portal, but by then it's too late. That particular version of Aerith is gone for all we know.

I wonder how different it is for people who are highly invested in the ship. Usually you hear about Aerith's death being this great tragedy (Which it is). I feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's.
 

Reaper3Delta

Pro Adventurer
I wonder how different it is for people who are highly invested in the ship. Usually you hear about Aerith's death being this great tragedy (Which it is). I feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's.
You can not force a romance when one of the persons involved does not reciprocates. In C/A 's case Aer is/was the pursuer not Cloud. Thats why is unrequited. It takes two to tango. Besides tired of people pushing a necrophiliac relationship she is dead. Why push for something after death, when she was alive it did not happened. I know its a game but is tiresome.
 

null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I have a question to ask: What do you guys think the developers want players to get out of the CA relationship? What do you think the developers themselves get out of it? (I don't mean to ask this as a way of dismissing the relationship itself).

I see myself as somewhat neutral about CA. There's romance and cute moments, but also an air of melancholy hangs over them, especially as the story nears the end of Rebirth. I particularly found the CA GS date to be pretty sad, mostly because Cloud appears so unaware of what Aerith is attempting to discuss. I also found the dream date to be profoundly sad for similar reasons. Cloud doesn't acknowledge her attempts to find the real him and has no idea she's preparing to die. He gets some idea when she pushes him through the portal, but by then it's too late. That particular version of Aerith is gone for all we know.

I wonder how different it is for people who are highly invested in the ship. Usually you hear about Aerith's death being this great tragedy (Which it is). I feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's.

I think ReTrilogy developers want to treat all fans, and their favorite characters, with the utmost respect. We're all meant to be invested in CA, no matter what we think they are to each other.

And honestly, I don't know what they are. Aerith clearly isn't "just a friend" like Jessie was. But when they have couples moments where I would expect them to make progress, they always stop short. They back away from kissing, or bring up Tifa instead of focusing on each other, or qualify "I like you" with "but there's different kinds of like". There's a line they won't cross.

On top of that, the story isn't finished. It's still hard to say what Aerith knows at any given point and how that affects her motives. How much does she know about the future? Is she holding back to protect him (something CoLW Aerith has been known to do)? Is she unsure of her own feelings? When she's koibito tsunaging Cloud, does that version of her know Zack is running around the Lifestream looking for her? I'm positive the developers put those details there for us to notice.

There's one particularly controversial manga where I got invested in a ship that wrecked like a motherfucker near the very end. The Titanic had a more pleasant voyage than this ship. I was pissed. The whole universe was pissed. (You may have already guessed which one based on that.) Then I listened to the author explain what she was trying to accomplish, and I read it again, and lo and behold you could see it from outer space. The ending was still garbage but it was undeniable that things were being set up for the other ship. So yeah, shipping makes us tunnel visioned.

As for the FFVII team themselves... I'm not sure what they get out of it, but like most creators, I doubt they experience their own work the way the we do. They're mainly trying to build an experience for us. Nomura reminds me of a manga author, he strives to bring cool ideas to life while leaving room for interpretation. Nojima seems like he focuses on structure and coherence, always looking for areas that could be better explained or clarified. Hamaguchi brings the fresh perspective that isn't tied down to the past. I think all of their voices can be heard in the relationships, and CA is no exception.
 
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frosty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Snowman
Skillganon said:
feel like if the romance doesn't work, the fault is mostly Cloud's
I don't get how...the "fault" is Cloud's? Like, why is he's forced to hold up his end of the relationship stick when he...just doesn't want to ? If someone irl was interested me, pursues me aggressively, insinuates every interaction was romantic despite me protesting, forces me for a date, I have to "play along" and he confesses, I have to reciprocate? Even when I don't feel the same way? That's strange.

As for what the devs want... the answer is...money hahah. But as for all creative endeavors, it is to make fans happy but remain as true to the vision of what the end work should look like, and aligned to clear characterizations of what they intended for thier characters.

I genuinely believe the devs took the Clerith view carefully and seriously want to make them happy - hence why they get alot of shippy scenes. But they are on rails to ensure that Cloud's character doesn't get bastardized in the process because they've essentially committed themselves to Tifa end game, and to do other wise, opens to some of the worse interpretations of Cloud's character (willing to die to be with Aerith and abandons Tifa and the children) and I've said in the past, the most gracious way to end the LTD is to have Cloud not reject, but also not reciprocate as Aerith realize she's fated to die, and bow out of the LTD graciously - which is her "I know where we stand"
 
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